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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
India And Pakistan On Brink Of War After India Launches Attack; Pakistan's Military Claims Three Indian Air Force Planes Shot Down; Canada's Prime Minister To Trump: Canada "Won't Be For Sale, Ever"; Hours Until The Papal Conclave Begins; 133 Cardinals Will Vote To Choose Next Pope; Vatican To Deactivate Mobile Phone Signal Ahead Of Secret Meeting To Elect New Pope; Pakistan Security Sources: 5 Indian Fighter Jets Shot Down; India & Pakistan On Brink Of War After India Launches Attack; Some Manosphere Podcasters Are Pitching Catholicism. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired May 06, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: The color of the smoke from these ballots is the only indication to the outside world of whether a new pope has been chosen. Black smoke means that no candidate has received a two- thirds majority, and a pope has yet to be picked.
White smoke means that the cardinals have come to a consensus, and the pope has pope has been chosen.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: And I'll be here tomorrow starting just before four o'clock in the morning and throughout the day, and of course, here on "OutFront" tomorrow night for live coverage of this historic Conclave. Thanks so much for joining us, AC360 begins now.
[20:00:38]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, two nuclear armed powers, on the brink of a full-fledged shooting war as India strikes Pakistan and Pakistan promises retaliation.
Also tonight, Canada's prime minister tells President Trump the country's not for sale, and the President says he doesn't have to sign trade deals, while his Treasury Secretary signals he's not reached any. We're keeping them honest.
And later, with Cardinals about to open their Conclave. A look at some of the leading candidates to succeed Pope Francis.
Good evening, thanks for joining us. We begin tonight with breaking news from what for decades has been one of the most bitterly disputed parts of the world. Three nuclear powers India, Pakistan and China claim parts or all of Kashmir, a disputed region of the top of Northwestern India, which also borders Pakistan and China.
Tonight, early morning in the region, two of those powers are in open conflict. This after India launched airstrikes on what it says were nine Pakistani targets.
The strikes targeted what India calls terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan and Pakistan administered Kashmir. Pakistan says they largely harmed civilians, the country's prime minister calling it an act of war, adding that a befitting reply is being given his words.
Pakistani security and government sources tell CNN that three Indian jets and a drone have been shot down. We can't independently confirm that. For its part, India says the strike is in response to the mass shooting two weeks ago of 26 people, mostly Indian tourists, at a vacation spot in Kashmir.
In a statement tonight, India's Defense Ministry says the military had and I'm quoting now, "demonstrated considerable restraint in selection of targets and method of execution."
In Washington, meantime, President Trump called what's unfolding a shame, adding, I just hope it ends very quickly. The fear, of course, is that it doesn't and escalates. Again, we're talking about nuclear powers here. The State Department is said to be monitoring developments, a spokesperson there saying we have no assessment to offer at this time.
And just a short time ago, eyewitnesses told CNN they heard an explosion, causes yet undetermined from the largest city in the Indian administered part of Kashmir.
CNN's Nic Robertson is just back from the region. He joins us now from Pakistan's capital, Islamabad. So, what details do you have about these attacks? What do we know?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, what the Pakistan's military are saying is that eight people have been killed, 35 are injured, two are missing, among the dead, they say, is a three- year-old girl, a 16-year-old girl and an 18-year-old boy. This is the deepest strike that India has made into Pakistan in over 50 years, since 1971, when the two countries fought a major war.
We're standing potentially on the threshold of a very significant escalation. The reason I say that is because Pakistani officials in recent days have made it very clear if India strikes, they will strike back. Officials are telling us that there will be a proper response. There will be a National Security meeting here in Pakistan, government and security officials meeting in about five hours' time.
It is daylight just breaking right now. Pakistani officials say that they're trying to gauge the level of damage. This will assist them in making assessments about what has been hit. They already say that a mosque has been hit. We know in Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistan administered Kashmir, the power is out, massive explosions.
CNN's local journalists there told us that people were in panic. They were running down the streets. Our cameraman, Javid here, who lives in the outskirts of Islamabad, his house shook with two explosions when these attacks took place about four hours ago. This is a very dynamic and evolving situation, Anderson. And to that point, Pakistan's military is now saying that they have shot down five, indeed five, not just three Indian fighter jets.
We're not able to confirm that independently ourselves at this time. And the Pakistani military is also saying they are responding across the line of control, that de facto border between Pakistan administered Kashmir, Indian administered Kashmir, taking out what they described as Indian military posts along the border.
Tensions there have been high. There's been tit-for-tat shelling over recent days. But what these indications from the Pakistani military is that those have really ticked up significantly. But this is not Pakistan's full response. And I think perhaps that may come. We're told it will come after the national security meeting in a few hours.
[20:05:25]
There is opportunity for diplomacy. We know from speaking -- I have spoken with very senior Pakistani officials here. They tell me that Secretary of State Marco Rubio has spoken with Pakistan's National Security adviser. Pakistan has laid out its position. The United States, I'm told, understands what they are saying, obviously, pushing for diplomacy. But this is in a very significant position of escalation on simply two points: India's deepest strike into Pakistan since 1971 and the fact that women and children among the casualties, a three-year-old girl killed.
COOPER: Yes, Nic Robertson, stay with us. Joining me now is CNN senior National Security analyst, Peter Bergen and CNN's senior military analyst, Admiral James Stavridis, a former NATO Supreme Allied Commander and a partner at The Carlyle Group, a global investment firm.
COOPER: Admiral, how likely do you think it is that the scope of this military action expands into something larger?
ADM. JAMES STAVRIDIS (RET), CNN SENIOR MILITARY ANALYST: Well, as you were showing the footage and saying they're on the brink of war, I was thinking, boy, that looks a lot like a war. I mean, these are bombs going off deep into Pakistan, as we just heard from Nic. You're showing that footage again.
I think it's a very much a tinderbox at the moment. Two things to watch. Watch the comments coming from the Army general who commands all the Pakistani forces. Over the past few days. He's been on a very high level of rhetoric indicating that whatever the Indians do, the Pakistanis will, in his words, notch up. So, that's one thing to watch and one thing that's worrisome. And on the other side, obviously, watch what Mr. Modi has to say.
This is a very dangerous for two big reasons. One is these are two huge countries population. These are two of the five largest countries in the world. They have a long standing, bitter history. And above all, as you alluded to a moment ago, Anderson, these are both nuclear powers, both have 150 to 170 nuclear weapons. I don't see that as a possibility at the moment. But when you put it all together, it's a very dangerous moment there at the top of the world, in the Himalayas.
COOPER: Yes, Peter, as Nic mentioned, I mean, the Indian strikes are the deepest inside Pakistan since 1971. Is this unfolding as you expected?
PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, I think it's a big deal because CNN is reporting that some of these strikes happened in Punjab, which is really the Pakistani heartland. It's one thing to have strikes in Kashmir, which is a contested territory. We've seen that before. Even during the war in 1999, that India and Pakistan fought over Kashmir in a place called Kargil.
I don't recall any strikes in the Pakistani heartland. And then picking up also on what the Admiral just said, General Munir, who ran the Pakistan's military intelligence agency, which has controls basically its foreign policy and its National Security, is probably one of the more powerful military figures since General Zia, who was a dictator in Pakistan, you know, in the mid 80's.
He also seems to be a religious nationalist and as the Admiral indicated, he's been making some somewhat bellicose statements of late. And then you add in the most Hindu first leader of India since 1947, and you have a pretty combustible mix.
COOPER: And, Nic, you were in Kashmir just in recent days. What did you see there? What stood out to you?
ROBERTSON: Yes, and just echoing what Peter was saying about General Munir. I mean, he is widely seen as hugely powerful in the country. Very forward leaning and robust in his in his military doctrine and military position. And I think, as Peter says, he takes a very robust position in having spoken over the last few days, as you said, we went to into Kashmir, we went with the military. They facilitated the trip. So, I got an opportunity to speak with a lot of senior military commanders, generals included.
This is an Army in Pakistan that is fighting and has been fighting for the past 20 years. A massive militant insurgency on their western border. The terrorists there are able to get sanctuary in Afghanistan and attack. And that has really, over the past couple of decades, not only physically hardened Pakistan's military, but mentally hardened them. And I've really noticed that I was in Pakistan during that late 90's Kargil War, fought high in the Himalayas here.
And really the sort of narrative coming from the military to this point under General Munir has really significantly hardened now. On that trip into Kashmir, we were going high over the mountains. It is very, very difficult terrain in those mountains. The Army posts we went to, some of them were at 10,000 feet up. We could see artillery positions dug in fields. The officers I was speaking to there, told me that they were on absolute readiness.
[20:10:33]
You know, they stopped doing their sort of usual early morning daily runs outside that they were ready and prepared for how the situation may develop. And this, you know, what we saw and we went right to the line of control within a few hundred feet of Indian positions. And the soldiers there were saying, look, don't stand there on that piece of ground because they can see you. There's a potential to be shot at here. The villagers living there were very afraid.
Two of those villagers had been killed in the past couple of weeks. Indian officials had accused them of being terrorists. Pakistani military said the villagers there, the relatives told us that they weren't. But the tension that this village felt because they couldn't take their cattle out close to the line of control because it's so close to Indian controlled territory. They're afraid of being shot at. The whole village, living in one house in fear. That tension that we felt along the border there, and that is the area where some of those strikes have been reported overnight.
COOPER: Admiral, what leverage does the U.S. have at this point? And what communication, if any, is there between India and military and Pakistani counterparts? I mean, is there a de-escalation protocol in a situation like this?
STAVRIDIS: There is not, and these are bitter foes. There's not any love lost between them. And really, in the immediate aftermath of the horrific massacre of 26 innocent Indian tourists in a meadow picnicking in the aftermath of that, there have been a series of moves that have effectively cut relations, cut communications, very, very dangerous in terms of what the United States can do.
Obviously, Marco Rubio should be on top of this. Sounds like he's making some initial calls. One would hope our President would perhaps call Mr. Modi, with whom he has a very strong relationship. Here's the nation that has some leverage here is China.
The road to Islamabad and influencing this runs through Beijing, which has provided an awful lot of support to Pakistan. So, I think it's a kind of diplomatic, all hands on deck time. And I would also hope Russia, which has a lot of influence with the Indians, would also speak to the Indians. This needs to be de-escalated. This could go higher order. And again, these are nuclear powers.
COOPER: Peter does, I mean, does either country have an appetite for a full scale war? I mean, I know there are political, I mean, there are all sorts of different factors and considerations here. But I mean, at the core, do they both want this?
BERGEN: Well, I mean, it's a fact that Pakistan has fought three major wars against India and lost all three of them and also fought a minor war and also lost that. So, if you're three-and-a-half for zero, since 1947, you'd have thought that you wouldn't want a war.
However, on the question of the nuclear weapons, Pakistan has not publicly said that it has a no first-use policy and it has tactical nuclear weapons of the kind that it would be -- deployed if it was potentially losing a conventional war with India.
So, look, I mean, people don't necessarily go to war for rational reasons. And Pakistan, I mean, as the admiral earlier said, I mean, look, the populations of these countries, one is 250 million. That's Pakistan, and one is 1.5 billion, so let's do the math.
So, there is no rational reason for this war, but people don't go to war for rational reasons often.
COOPER: Peter Bergen, Admiral Stavridis, appreciate it, Nic Robertson as well. We're going to continue to monitor Kashmir throughout this hour.
We are also keeping our eye on preliminary reports from Ukraine of a Russian missile attack on Kyiv, witnesses telling Reuters news service about a series of loud explosions in the capital shortly after 1:00 A.M., local time. We'll bring you more if we learn of it.
Just ahead, some of the top names mentioned to succeed Pope Francis with the start of the Conclave now just hours away. A live report from Rome.
And next, Canada's Prime Minister coming to Washington and telling the President to his face twice. Canada is not for sale.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK CARNEY, PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA: And having met with the owners of Canada over the course of the campaign last several months, it's not for sale. It won't be for sale ever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:19:25]
COOPER: Well, keeping them honest, tonight, the President says he had a great meeting at the White House today with Canada's Prime Minister, Mark Carney and the prime minister, well, he said afterwards, "I feel better about relations in many respects."
So, publicly at least, both sides seem pleased with the meeting, whether it was a typical meeting, though, or would be for any president not named Donald Trump, that's another question, because here's what else Mr. Trump said just a few hours afterwards.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, as far as calling him Governor Carney, now, I haven't done that yet, and maybe I won't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That's the press in the United States suggesting that maybe he won't, but maybe he will call the newly elected leader of our closest neighbor governor, as though Canada were the 51st state. Not typical, except these days, it kind of is. Nor is it typical for a visiting Canadian prime minister to have to say twice to the President's face that his country is not for sale after his host, when asked about it, starts almost daydreaming out loud.
[20:20:17]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Mr. President -- Mr. Prime Minister, I'd like to get your responses to Mr. President, you have said that Canada should become the 51st state. Were you joking?
TRUMP: No, no. Well, I still believe that. But you know it takes two to tango, right? But I think, you know, it's -- it would really be a wonderful marriage because it's two places that get along very well. They like each other a lot.
MARK CARNEY, PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA: Well, if I may, as you know from real estate, there are some places that are never for sale.
TRUMP: That's true.
CARNEY: We're sitting in one right now. You know, Buckingham palace that you visited as well.
TRUMP: That's true.
CARNEY: And having met with the owners of Canada over the course of the campaign last several months, it's not for sale, it won't be for sale ever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: A few minutes later, this time after a question on tariffs, Prime Minister Carney came back to the 51st state issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Mr. President, is there anything the Prime Minister can say to you today to change your mind on tariffing in Canada?
TRUMP: Tariffing cars.
REPORTER: Tariffing Canada? Is there anything he could say to you in the course of your meetings with him today that could get you to lift tariffs on Canada?
TRUMP: No.
REPORTER: Why not?
TRUMP: Just the way it is.
REPORTER: On the 51st state, if Canadians don't want it, would you respect that?
TRUMP: Sure I would, but this is not necessarily a one-day deal. This is over a period of time, they have to make that decision. Yes. go ahead.
CARNEY: Yes, if I may. Well, I respectfully -- Canadian's view on this and is not going to change on the 51st state.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The President also talked tariffs and showed impatience of being asked about whether he's reached any trade agreements with any country so far.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Just to finish, we also have a situation because everyone says when, when, when are you going to sign deals? We don't have to sign deals. We could sign 25 deals right now, Howard, if we want it. We don't have to sign deals. They have to sign deals with us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, keeping them honest, the President is now just three days shy of a month into his three month tariff pause, time which he said would be used to strike trade agreements with the rest of the world, especially China, which he exempted from the pause and raised tariffs on to 145 percent.
So far, however, the administration has announced zero agreements with zero countries and by the sound of the Presidents answer, there might not be any, which, by the way, is not surprising.
In normal times, in past administrations, trade deals have taken many, many months, even years to hammer out the idea that even a framework for trade agreements would happen this fast was unlikely, but this President did put a timer on it. And when asked more specifically about China, the administration's responses have been all over the place.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Mr. President, you said that you have spoken to President Xi, when did that happen? China says it hasn't happened.
TRUMP: I spoke to him numerous times.
WEIJIA JIANG, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: So can you clarify, is the administration talking to Beijing specifically about tariffs or not?
SCOTT BESSENT, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: Well, we're not going to talk about who's talking to whom.
REPORTER: Setting the stage for a deal with China. What does that mean? Has the President spoken directly with Xi?
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I don't have anything to read out on a direct talk between the President and President Xi.
JONATHAN KARL, ABC NEWS: Have you had any conversations with your Chinese counterpart? Has there been anything between you and the Chinese?
HOWARD LUTNICK, U.S. COMMERCE SECRETARY: I think we've had soft, the way I would say it is soft entrees, you know through intermediaries and those kind of comments.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, as for the President, he was asked about China during a lengthy interview about two weeks ago with "Time" Magazine. The question was, will you call President Xi if he doesn't call you? President Trump said, no -- no, you won't? Nope. Question: Has he called you yet? The President: Yep. When did he call you? The President: He's called, and I don't think that's a sign of weakness on his behalf.
Now, the Chinese have consistently denied that any such call happened. And today, testifying before Congress under oath, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said that the two countries have not even started talking trade.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BESSENT: There are 18 very important trading relationships. We are currently negotiating with 17 of those trading partners. China. We have not engaged in negotiations with as of yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, joining me now, CNN political analyst, "New York Times" senior White House correspondent Maggie Haberman. What stood out to you about the meeting with Carney?
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Many things. The main one is that all of these foreign leaders go into the Oval Office with President Trump and something of a no win situation, because the President sets the terms of what he wants it to be.
He did a Truth post before this meeting started. He has obviously been talking about the 51st state. He has been talking about trade. And so, Carney, who has been pretty tough and who was elected in part as backlash to Donald Trump in Canada had a choice to make on how he was going to handle it.
He came in clearly with a prepared line, which was Canada's not for sale. But then he had to sort of navigate not having a, you know, Zelenskyy type moment with Trump whether in a standoff he seemed to have. But again, it was all on President Trump --
[20:25:16]
COOPER: It was so interesting. I mean you -- the only thing to compare it Zelenskyy on one end of the spectrum --
HABERMAN: -- right, completely very far.
COOPER: Right, and then there's the British Prime Minister presenting the like a golden letter from the Buckingham Palace with like double plus good invitations.
HABERMAN: Right, and not being in total disagreement with him but, you know, occasionally or not being in total agreement with him, occasionally voicing some disagreement when they were at their separate podiums. This is this is somewhere on that spectrum. It is it is far closer to Keir Starmer, the British P.M., than Zelenskyy.
COOPER: The Prime Minister also seemed to have -- I don't know if the thing about the real estate deal was a pre-planned out, but it seemed like it. It sure sounded like it and was interesting to see the President kind of responding.
HABERMAN: Well, it's interesting, Anderson, because all of these foreign leaders do work. I mean, it's not uncommon that you would workshop how you're going to handle meeting with the U.S. President, but the extent to which they all have to do some form of prep, because they know they're going to end up in a bind with President Trump.
He clearly had practiced saying something that would both disarm Trump and also make his point. And he did that. Trump did respond. He laughed. But then he went right back to his point.
COOPER: I want to play something else, the President said in a bilateral meeting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We don't really want cars from Canada and we put tariffs on cars from Canada and at a certain point, it won't make economic sense for Canada to build those cars. We really don't want Canadian steel, and we don't want Canadian aluminum and various other things, because we want to be able to do it ourselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Is it clear to you what kind of outcome he's looking for?
HABERMAN: No, and I'm not sure that its clear to him what kind of actual specific outcome he's looking for, other than one where the U.S. can say we're on top and somebody else is not.
Whatever the outcome is with Canada, with most of these other trading partners, it will look like some kind of a framework of a deal. And Trump will say, we won. This is what I wanted. It won't be an actual trade deal to the point you made earlier. Those take months and sometimes years to hammer out. He will take some kind of off ramps, but I don't think that he knows exactly what he wants to see, other than a headline that says success.
COOPER: I also wonder how much the President's knowledge that the Prime Minister was elected in reaction to a lot of what the President said, I mean, his popularity grew in reaction to President Trump.
HABERMAN: True, most people would have the reaction of, oh, that means that perhaps I should temper what I'm saying. Trump, as you know, historically doubles down, we have seen that here. And also he sees it as it's still everyone talking about him one way or the other. So, he sort of likes being at the center of it.
COOPER: Do you think his relationship is -- I guess it's not -- I mean, nobody really knows what his relationship with is going to be vis-a-vis or in relation to how he was with Trudeau.
HABERMAN: No, I mean, look, he dangled that idea that he might call Carney governor. Right. So that's suggesting that I'm still going to possibly minimize you if I want to. But so far he does seem to your question about the fact that Carney got elected in response to Trump and as a backlash to Trump, he is clearly aware that there is at least some limit on how far he can go, right?
COOPER: He also announced or kind of mentioned that he would stop strikes on the Houthi rebels in, in Yemen, and an Israeli official has told CNN that the U.S. did not inform Israel in advance about the de facto truce between them. And Israel has just struck -- the Houthis, just struck Israel?
HABERMAN: Yes, and Trump made no mention of Israel and that that attack on Israel that just took place.
Look, I think this is an outgrowth, as I understand it, of some of what Steve Witkoff who was just sworn in as the envoy, the special envoy to the Mideast, has been working on in Oman. It was Oman officials who announced this. We'll see what it looks like. I mean, there was some report that the U.S. military strikes were still ongoing after Trump said that. So, you know, this will either open up a change or it won't --
(AUDIO GAP)
COOPER: Coming up next, a preview of tomorrow's Vatican Conclave and some of the men mentioned as papal frontrunners. What we know about the jockeying now going on behind the scenes.
And later, more on our breaking news. We wait for Pakistan has promised to answer India's airstrikes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:33:56]
COOPER: It's already Wednesday in Vatican City and a historic ritual is about to begin. The papal conclave, the 267th pope will be chosen by cardinals from around the world. 133 in all from 71 countries, many of whom were appointed by Pope Francis over the last decade, the majority of whom.
There's of course growing excitement and intrigue over who will lead the world's 1.4 billion Catholics.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will it be positive? Will it be quick?
CARDINAL WILLIAM GOH, SINGAPORE: You wouldn't know. We need to listen to the Holy Spirit.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: That's Cardinal William Goh from Singapore. There are many leading candidates being discussed. Cardinal Secretary -- Cardinal Parolin, the secretary of state for the Vatican since 2013, the number two position under Pope Francis. He's often talked about as a top contender, although that's not necessarily a good thing going into the conclave.
There are also a number of outside candidates from across the globe which our Vatican Correspondent Christopher Lamb reports are being speculated about in Rome. There's Cardinal Aveline of France, he's seen as a champion of dialogue between different faiths. During a homily he gave for Pope Francis, he thanked him for never giving in to the slumber of consciences in the face of the dramas of conflict, suffering and injustices that continue to bloody our earth.
[20:35:10]
There's Cardinal Grech from Malta who Francis made a cardinal in 2020. There's Cardinal David of the Philippines, he's known as a defender of human rights. He openly criticized former Filipino President Duterte.
Another seen as a long shot is Cardinal Pizzaballa, originally from Italy. He's been in Jerusalem for 35 years. He only became a cardinal in 2023. And there's an American reportedly who has some growing support according to Christopher Lamb's reporting, Cardinal Prevost, he was born in Chicago. He's carried out most of his ministry in Peru.
Joining me with more is our Vatican Correspondent Christopher Lamb and also Father Patrick Mary Briscoe, host of the Godsplaining podcast and editor of the Catholic magazine, Our Sunday Visitor. So, Christopher, among the supposed frontrunners, I mean, I guess, is it bad to be seen as a frontrunner going into the conclave?
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, yes, that's right. This is an election where if you're seen to be campaigning or the obvious frontrunner, that can be the kiss of death for your candidacy. So it's the outsiders that I think we need to watch carefully. You've mentioned some of them.
But the overriding sentiment I'm getting from speaking to cardinals is the unpredictability of this conclave. I've spoken to cardinals who say, I genuinely don't know how this is going to go. And we get that strong sense from people that I've been speaking to, but also this sense that Pope Francis, by choosing cardinals from 71 different countries, many of them who've never had a cardinal before, he set up a very unpredictable and potentially messy conclave that could even go on for longer than previous conclaves.
Anderson?
COOPER: Well, Father Briscoe, what do you think about that? I know some Vatican observers think this could be what they're calling a long clave, something that goes on for a long time. Pope Benedict's election, Pope Francis only took two days. How long do you think this might be?
FATHER PATRICK MARY BRISCOE, HOST, "GODSPLAINING" PODCAST: Well, when we start talking about how long the conclave will be, Anderson, we have to admit that it's kind of relative. So a long conclave could be at most 13 days. That's the absolute maximum for how long a conclave could take. And that's far shorter than the 1,000 days of a legendary medieval conclave.
But that is the news that we're hearing this week. The cardinals that I've spoken to, and certainly members of the Vatican press, and many others here in Rome, are sort of sensing that there's a bit of a fracture evolving, that there are conversations ongoing. And that if there was a consensus, it seems to have broken up in these last weeks.
So there is talk about the conclave going on perhaps longer than expected, which could mean, in my estimation, four or five days.
COOPER: Christopher, I know you spoke with the cardinal who said there's no socializing or small talk in the conclave. We know the cell phone service is going to be jammed around the Sistine Chapel. It's so interesting to me, how do you report on stuff when nobody really wants to, you know, be quoted as saying what's happening, or what's in their mind, or nobody wants to be seen campaigning? How do you gather information about kind of -- how do you get a feel for where people's heads are at?
LAMB: Well, it is a challenge, and obviously it is through relationships that I've built up over a number of years with cardinals, and I've been able to speak to them off the record. But also on the record I spoke to Cardinal Gracias, who is a retired Archbishop of Bombay, a very respected figure amongst the Asian cardinals, and he told me about what it's like inside the Sistine Chapel.
It's very much a spiritual process. The conclave is almost like a liturgy. The cardinals process forward and place their ballots in the urn, and then of course the names are read out. So there is this sense of a mixture between the spiritual process, but also the kind of human politics behind it.
But, you know, I've been trying in these days to speak to cardinals when they've come out from their meetings in the Vatican, they've filed out. And I've been able to try and catch them in St. Peter's Square as they've left a meeting to go for lunch or dinner.
So it's been very much a kind of question of utilizing the context that I have, but also --
COOPER: Right.
LAMB: -- just meeting people when I can spontaneously.
COOPER: Father Briscoe, what interests you most about, I mean obviously the outcome, but about the conclave itself?
BRISCOE: I love this emphasis on the conclave as a spiritual ritual. I mean it's an amazing thing, because a conclave has technically taken place, well historically taken place in fact in many places, sometimes outside of Rome, in different countries, even.
But in the context of the Sistine Chapel, when cardinals will go before the beautiful Fresco of Michelangelo, standing before the Last Judgment, they'll make a solemn oath before Christ as their witness, that they're nominating not a man that they've been pressured to vote for, but the one whom they believe before God should have this role.
[20:40:02]
I think that's an extraordinary thing to understand, that there's a vow, an oath made, a kind of declaration with each ballot that's placed in front of that transcendent mural, and that's an astonishing thing.
COOPER: Yes. Father Patrick Mary Briscoe, always good to talk to you. Christopher Lamb as well. We'll continue to talk in the days ahead.
New developments within the last couple of minutes in our breaking news from the top of the hour, India and Pakistan, two nuclear powers on the brink of war after an attack by India. We'll have an update.
And later, CNN's Donie O'Sullivan on a movement among some Catholics within the so-called manosphere of podcasters and online influencers.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
TIMOTHY J. GORDON, HOST, RULES FOR RETROGRADES SHOW: Women are by their nature dependent on men, and they're happy that way. And they get miserable when they're forced to be the main character acting like a man out in the world.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:45:27]
COOPER: Just moments ago, an update in the conflict over Kashmir, and it's a concerning update. Initial reports were that two Indian jets had been shot down, then it was three. Now, Pakistani security sources say that number is five. Five jets and one drone.
CNN cannot independently confirm that, but we've reached out to Indian officials for comment. India tonight, as you know, struck what they claim is terrorist infrastructure, both in neighboring Pakistan and Pakistan administered Kashmir. The strikes would be the deepest that India has fired into Pakistan's borders since the Indo-Pakistani war of 1971. We're now awaiting a promised response from Pakistani forces.
With me now, CNN Chief National Security Correspondent Jim Sciutto. This is a powder keg, I mean, you can use whatever kind of cliche you want, and the fact that it's actually more jets shot down is certainly not a good development.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No, no question. I mean, listen, when India launched these attacks, and they were expected in response to this terror attack some two weeks ago when two dozen Indian nationals were killed, it said that these actions were focused, measured, and non-escalatory. That's India's description of its own strikes.
Of course, Pakistan takes quite a different view of it. I spoke to a spokesperson for the Pakistani military on the air, and his description was that this was an unprovoked, blatant act of war that he said put the two countries at the brink of conflict, right? I mean, the trouble with escalatory situations like this is that one side's proportional may be read by the other side as escalatory.
Now we're in a situation where at least Pakistan is claiming to have struck blood, as it were, on India, taking down perhaps as many as five Indian jets, although India has not confirmed that, and we have not independently confirmed that.
So that could then, you could imagine circumstances where India would then feel the need to respond. I mean, there's an alternative interpretation where Pakistan could lay back on that and say, in effect, we have carried out our response already, or at least part of our response by taking some of these Indian jets down.
COOPER: The other concern -- and we talked to Admiral Stavridis about this earlier, is that there's not, according to him, a kind of a de- escalation, you know, safeguards in place between India and Pakistan. It seems like it involves other countries trying to kind of intervene and ratchet things down.
SCIUTTO: And that's what's happening right now. We know that the State Department is watching very closely, and other partners in the region are reaching out both to Indian and Pakistani officials. The thing is, we have seen this before. I was going through just my notes on the number of times the two sides have exchanged fire. 2019, 2016, 2014, 2013, 2011, 2008, 2002.
Back in 2002, it became so severe that there were genuine concerns that it might escalate to a nuclear exchange. It did not get there, and thankfully, we appear to be nowhere close to that at this point. But again, the issue is, how do you de-escalate? Sometimes it's pressure or influence from the outside, and sometimes it's internal.
There are military-to-military communications between India and Pakistan. That's key because you don't want to misread the other side. But those are often irregular, and may not be taking place in the moment. And in addition to that, you have enormous political pressures from inside both countries.
The Indian public has supported an Indian response to this terror attack. The Pakistani public, I've been speaking to reporters and others this whole evening, they are now supporting some sort of Pakistani response. And the leaders of both countries respond to that pressure.
COOPER: Yes. Jim Sciutto, thanks very much.
SCIUTTO: Thank you.
COOPER: Appreciate it.
Coming up next, Donie O'Sullivan on how podcasters who are part of the so-called manosphere are, in some cases, embracing Catholicism. Here how they view the papal conclave, now just hours away to name a succession of Pope Francis.
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[20:53:51]
COOPER: Again, we are hours away from the conclave that will select the successor to Pope Francis. It remains to be seen whether the college cardinals will choose a progressive pontiff in the mold of Francis. Our Donie O'Sullivan recently met with one podcaster and content creator who considers himself a traditionalist Catholic. You might be surprised to what he is preaching online.
Here's Donie's report.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: We're rolling, yes. This is where you go live.
GORDON: He liked women's lib. Jump on the second. It said some really evil things. These women should develop economic skills.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?
GORDON: I mean, the ironic thing is some women do -- like, you actually kind of have.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): This is Timothy J. Gordon.
O'SULLIVAN: Do you get a lot of hate?
GORDON: Some. A lot's really happened in the last three years that has helped to normalize, paved the way.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): As you might be able to tell from his home decor, Timothy is a Christian. In fact, he's part of a conservative Catholic movement known as traditionalism.
GORDON: Basically, society is kind of a matrix. If you look at it from outside the matrix, everything is wired to make women think that they can be independent. And women aren't independent of men. There -- and this Bible teaches us this. St. Paul says it in three places.
[20:55:02]
Women are by their nature dependent on men. And they're happy that way. And they get miserable when they're forced to be the main character acting like a man out in the world.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Timothy is part of the Manosphere, a group of online influencers that tell young men they need to fight against feminism.
GORDON: There's some competing iterations of how to restore masculinity. You've probably heard of, you know, Andrew Tate, and those guys offer a perfectly valid critique of feminism.
ANDREW TATE, SOCIAL MEDIA PERSONALITY: The woman must learn that her man is -- an iron mountain, and the easiest path is to obey.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But Timothy says people like Tate are not helping.
GORDON: They're bringing solutions to these young men that aren't true. And they're saying sleep with a bunch of women, contraception and birth control. It's basically feminism for men.
March has turned out to be International Women's Month.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Timothy has eight kids and preaches an interpretation of the Bible that is rooted in patriarchy. He hosts a podcast which his wife Stephanie sometimes appears on.
GORDON: Now, my wife doesn't have to be a follower of any -- of all men. But every woman is literally called in eight places in the New Testament to follow her husband under pain of sin. And that's the way it's good. That's the way she shows her love for God.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Mike Lewis is the founding managing editor of the blog "Where Peter Is". A site he says was set up in part to respond to American traditionalist Catholics' attacks on Pope Francis.
O'SULLIVAN: Like, Tim Gordon's argument is it's there in black and white, in the Bible, women are there to serve men. Men are dominant. There is a patriarchy.
MIKE LEWIS, MANAGING EDITOR, WHERE PETER IS: Well, I would classify that as a fundamentalist point of view. The Catholic Church has always been very clear that it is the Pope and the bishops in communion with him that authentically interpret Scripture. And this is wholeheartedly rejected by figures who are into this Catholic version of the Manosphere.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Pope Francis was deeply unpopular with Manosphere Catholics like Timothy.
GORDON: The worst Pope in the history of 266 Roman Catholic Popes.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): And among broader traditionalist Catholics like Steve Bannon.
STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: And we stand in absolute defiance of this Pope. The Vatican deep state is the mother of all deep states. The movement of conservative Catholics, traditional Catholics, even people, young people going to the Orthodox side of Catholicism. It's one of the great developments in the 21st century.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Mike is worried about the traditionalists and so-called Manosphere Catholics could do to the church in America.
O'SULLIVAN: Tim Gordon and I've seen others basically say that they're seeing an uptick in young men picking up the Catholic faith because of these very traditionalist extreme views on women.
LEWIS: From what I've heard, it is a trend.
O'SULLIVAN: Right.
LEWIS: I've seen reports of conversions due to this. I think there are a lot of disenfranchised young males who are looking for something.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
LEWIS: My concern is that in a lot of cases, it's due to an alt-right ideology that isn't in line with what the Catholic Church teaches.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): As for Timothy and other traditionalist Catholics, they view this conclave as one of the most important in the church's history.
O'SULLIVAN: What happens if the next Pope is like Francis?
GORDON: It will be catastrophic for the church because if there's another Francis prototype, then it'll probably mean schism in the church.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
COOPER: And Donie O'Sullivan joins me now. So what are Timothy Gordon and others who believe what he believes looking for in a Pope?
O'SULLIVAN (on-camera): Yes, they clearly want a far more conservative Pope than what Francis was. And look, a lot of this goes back to the traditionalist movement within Catholicism has been around since the beginning of the church. A lot of this goes back to pre-Francis, to the 1960s, the second Vatican Council, otherwise known as Vatican II, which brought in things like having the mass in local languages, in English and Spanish.
Traditionalists, people like Timothy, people like Bannon as well, actually want to revert back to having a Latin mass --
COOPER: A Latin mass. Right.
O'SULLIVAN (on-camera): -- a Latin only mass. So there's a lot --
COOPER: Which has obviously been a big issue.
O'SULLIVAN (on-camera): It's been a big thing. And so you have this debate happening in terms of like how conservative or traditional the church should be. And then we see people like Timothy tapping into this new world of this sort of manosphere. And really, you know, Timothy is a Catholic. He's well read on it and everything else like that.
But what we're seeing is this strain within the Manosphere of basically men who are looking for a reason to be dominant over women. And finding this version, or as Mike Lewis would say, they're really a subversion of Catholicism that preaches that, yes, you know, the patriarchy is a good thing. And yes, you should be dominant over women.
COOPER: That's fascinating.
Donie O'Sullivan, thanks very much.
O'SULLIVAN (on-camera): Thanks.
COOPER: Appreciate it.
And a reminder, Donie has a new podcast episode out. Here's the QR code so you can listen to "Persuadable", part of the Account podcast. You can get it through that link and it's also available wherever you get your podcasts.
The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now. See you tomorrow.
