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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Nine "Armed And Dangerous" Inmates At Large After Daring New Orleans Jail Escape Caught On Video; Supreme Court Temporarily Blocks President Trump From Using Alien Enemies Act To Deport Group Of Immigrants In Texas; Cassie Ventura Finishes Testimony In Sean "Diddy" Combs Trial After Four Days And Nearly 20 Hours On The Stand; Secret Service Interviews Former FBI Director James Comey Over "86 47" Social Media Post. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired May 16, 2025 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

IBRAHIM ALMADI, SON OF U.S. CITIZEN BANNED FROM LEAVING SAUDI ARABIA: And all it needs is just a phone call to his favorite friends, MBS and we'll have my father back.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Ahmadi told us he has been speaking with House Speaker Mike Johnson. He said Speaker Johnson has made him a promise that his father will be freed. If that does not happen, the travel ban continues. Saad Al-Mahdi will not be able to return home to the United States until he's 94-years-old.

Thank you so much for joining us on this Friday. "AC360" with Anderson begins now.

[20:00:36]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, new video just released of a daring jailbreak in New Orleans. Authorities said the inmate should be considered armed and dangerous, and that they might have had help from a guard or someone in law enforcement.

Also tonight, the Supreme Court puts the President's deportations under the Alien Enemies Act on hold, why it is being seen as a significant defeat, but also perhaps not the court's final word on the matter.

And later, former FBI Director James Comey faces questioning from the Secret Service over an Instagram post that the President says calls for his assassination.

Good evening, thanks for joining us.

We begin tonight with that New Orleans jailbreak and the search for these nine men, several of whom are accused killers. If you see them or know where any might be, authorities want to hear from you. They made it out of the jail at around 1:00 A.M. after breaking open a door and then breaching the wall behind the toilet, you see there. written above the hole they crawled through were graffiti messages including, "we innocent" and the words, "too easy LOL."

Just before air time, local officials spoke to reporters and played video from inside the jail of the escape, and it breaks down roughly into three separate scenes. Now, in the first video from 12:22 A.M. here, according to police, you can see one inmate eventually joined by another, trying to force open one of the cell doors at a location referred to as One Delta. It's the door to cell 1006, the cell in the photo that we showed you, the one that they use to actually escape from.

A group of inmates, are next seen racing out of a loading dock door, carrying blankets with them. From there, they ran out onto a road behind the jail, and then scaled a fence. A short time later you see them on another video running across the eastbound and westbound lanes of Interstate 10 into a neighborhood where authorities say they found clothing and shared it among themselves.

Now, at a briefing earlier, the local district attorney called what happened a complete failure of the most basic responsibilities entrusted to a sheriff or jail administrator and the local sheriff made what must have been for her an especially awkward admission.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF SUSAN HUTSON, ORLEANS PARISH: We have indication that these detainees received assistance in their escape from individuals inside of our department.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: CNN's Isabel Rosales joins us now with the very latest on the escape and the manhunt. Also with us, CNN's senior law enforcement analyst, Charles Ramsey. He's the former top cop for Philadelphia and Washington.

So, Isabel, what more are you learning about how this escape unfolded?

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, it's certainly a serious situation. These inmates -- escaped inmates are facing a variety of charges, including violent charges such as murder, aggravated assault, false imprisonment.

So, let's dig a little bit deeper here into the timeline. And what happened with this brand new surveillance video, 12:23 A.M. you can see them right there yanking on these doors, pulling them off the tracks, says the Sheriff.

Then at 1:00 A.M., it is at this moment that a corrections monitoring technician stepped away from their position where they would be visually watching this pod to go grab some food.

And that is the moment the sheriff tells us that the inmates exited through a hole in the wall behind the toilet, got into the loading dock and you can see them right here. This is after they scaled the wall going past the barbed wire and then going through this Interstate.

Now, the Orleans Parish Sheriff Susan Hutson says that the cells had defective locks, but they also had evidence of this being an inside job, the plumbing and the rebar that you can see right here had been clean cut with those bolts removed. That could only have happened with outside help, they said.

Now, officials discovered that they were missing at least seven hours later since their escape.

Since this has happened, they have suspended three of the employees there pending the outcome of this internal investigation. And the sheriff insisted that the moment they found out, they immediately started calling victims and started calling survivors to warn them of what had happened.

Now, listen to this off the rails presser, Anderson, and you can see how officials are answering.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: So no one was watching live video all night at the jail.

MAJOR SILAS PHIPPS, JR., ORLEANS PARIS SHERIFF'S OFFICE: I won't say no one was watching live video, but --

REPORTER: How did nobody see them leaving the jail?

PHIPPS, JR.: There are over 900 cameras in the building.

REPORTER: How did no one see a massive jailbreak? But it's your job -- it's your job to monitor every single person in this facility every day.

Do you want to say you're sorry to the people of New Orleans for having this happen? I mean.

PHIPPS, JR.: We are underfunded, understaffed, underpaid. So we do our best to hire staff and retain them. But like everyone else, we're short.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:05:11]

COOPER: Wow. I mean, Chief Ramsey it's kind of remarkable. He's saying there's 900 cameras. If there's no one actually watching the cameras or watching the video feed, then that seems.

Initially, Isabel said that it just happened, that this person allegedly got up for food at the exact same time that that this jailbreak occurred. What stands out to you about this, Chief?

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN'S SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, first of all, that timing is awful suspicious. I mean, you know, you leave to get food at the same time these guys decide to escape. I mean, that by itself tells you that something is just not right. There's no way they could have done this without help from the inside.

And they probably have some help on the outside. Once they got out I wouldn't doubt that at all. They've only caught one so far. There was a, what, seven-hour gap from the time they actually escaped to the time they were noticed to be missing. 8:30. And it was another hour before they notified law enforcement about the escape.

This is -- this whole thing just stinks, it's bad. And somebody's got to be held accountable. This is just not acceptable. I know that they're on the defense right now, but they should be on the defense. I mean, there's just no way something like this should happen.

COOPER: Look, I mean, jails, you know, in Louisiana, in New Orleans have been an issue for a long time. I think one was under a consent decree back in 2013 or so, if my memory is correct. What are the logistics, Chief of planning a manhunt for nine people like this?

RAMSEY: It's going to be very difficult. It's going to be very manpower intensive because now you've got nine people that probably went their own way.

So, you've got to have different teams that are out searching for these individuals. I mean, you're looking at places where, you know, they have relatives, where they have friends, where they have girlfriends, all those kinds of things, trying to locate them.

Now, they do have photographs of each individual recent photographs that I'm sure they got out to a very wide area outside of New Orleans, outside of Louisiana, for that matter, for everyone to be on the lookout for these individuals.

But this is not good. You have people with some very serious charges -- homicide, armed robbery, other gun offenses, and so forth. These are dangerous people that never should be out on the street.

And to lose 10 at one time, I haven't seen anything like that since I watched Steve McQueen in "The Great Escape."

I mean, you just don't have this sort of thing happen. There's just no excuse at all.

COOPER: Chief Charles Ramsey, appreciate it. Isabel Rosales as well. We're going to keep tabs on the manhunt throughout this hour, bring you any updates.

More breaking news: A significant setback for President Trumps immigration agenda in the Supreme Court, in a seven to two decision, the justices blocked the Trump administration from using a law that's only been used before, during wartime, to deport a group of immigrants in Texas.

Now we're talking about the 1798 Alien Enemies Act. The government has been trying to use the wartime law to speed up deportations.

The ruling says that the immigrants need more than 24 hours' notice to exercise due process. Justices Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas dissented. We should note the decision is only temporary. The justices sent the case back to a federal appeals court. After the ruling, President Trump wrote on social media: "The Supreme

Court of the United States is not allowing me to do what I was elected to do," he added. "Thank you to Justice Alito and Justice Thomas for attempting to protect our country. This is a bad and dangerous day for America."

Joining me now is CNN senior legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Elie Honig. How big a loss is this one for the administration?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST AND FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: This one hurts. Yes, this really hurts the Trump administration. And if you need proof of that, look no further than the President's wounded statement after the fact.

When you read this opinion, Anderson, the language is much sharper than you usually see from the ordinarily genteel justices. And really, a couple things come through to me. Number one, they are fed up. The justices are fed up with the way the Trump administration has been handling immigration.

And two, there is a loss of trust from the Supreme Court, minus Justices Alito and Thomas. But the other seven justices towards the Trump administration, this is now the second time that the Supreme Court has said all of these Alien Enemies Act deportations are on hold because you are not giving people enough notice, because you've played fast and loose, sending planes out in the middle of hearings.

And they even cite the Kilmar Abrego Garcia case, the court does and they say, we don't want to risk a situation where you do what you did with Abrego Garcia, where you send them out of the country and then tell us, sorry, Your Honors, he's gone. Nothing we can do about it. So, this is a really sharp setback.

COOPER: So this heads back to an appeals court. What's likely to happen?

HONIG: So, what the Supreme Court has said is no deportations until we work out, first of all, exactly what the due process will be. And second of all, the Supreme Court is making clear here that ultimately, they are going to have to rule on whether the Alien Enemies Act applies to this.

The Act, as you said, it's a 1798 Act. Its only previously been used in wartime. The question is, is the presence of this gang an invasion or a predatory incursion? A district court judge, Trump appointed said last week, no, it does not count. That question is definitely heading up to the Supreme Court. I think they're skeptical. I think they're going to strike it down.

COOPER: All right, Elie Honig, stick around. Up next, breaking news in the Sean "Diddy" Combs trial, the prosecution's star witness Cassie Ventura wrapping up her testimony, telling the jury that her second job was to be, in her words, "basically a sex worker."

Later, a photo of the numbers 86 47 in seashells and why the President United States is saying they add up to a call for his assassination by former FBI Director James Comey.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: More breaking news, the star witness in Sean "Diddy" Combs' federal racketeering and sex trafficking trial. His ex-girlfriend Cassie Ventura, has concluded her testimony after four days and nearly 20 hours on the stand.

A quick warning, some of what we will show you and talk about tonight is graphic. The day started with continued cross-examination of Ventura by the defense redirect from the prosecution and then recross examination from the defense. Combs, as you know, has pleaded not guilty to all charges.

Joining us this trial attorney and legal analyst Misty Marris and CNN correspondent, Kara Scannell, who were both in the court today and back with me, CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig.

Kara, what was it like in court today as key moments from her testimony?

[20:15:37]

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, on the cross- examination, they were continuing to try to chip away or find inconsistencies in her testimony. And one area where they spent a lot of time today was on her allegation that Combs had raped her in 2018.

She testified it occurred in August 2018. The defense brought out that she had told local law enforcement officials it was actually in September and then she wrote in her lawsuit, which she sued Combs, that it was in September. So they were trying to find some inconsistencies.

They also showed some text messages when she sent Combs the next day with a heart emoji, and then once over the next few weeks, saying that she missed him and was heartbroken over their breakup because this was toward the end of their relationship.

One other element was they were trying to suggest that this was financially motivated. She had sued Combs. We learned from her testimony that she got a $20-million settlement.

We also learned today, for the first time that the Intercontinental Hotel is going to pay her $10 million as part of a settlement that occurred just a few weeks ago.

COOPER: Which is where the assault took place?

SCANNELL: Yes.

COOPER: That a videotaped assault--

SCANNELL: Yes, that assault on the hotel surveillance. And so. the defense was pushing her on this, suggesting it was, you know, for these reasons, she canceled a tour right after she got the money. And then on redirect, the prosecution was focusing in this, and they

asked her, you know, was $20 million basically worth it? And at this point, as she's starting to answer, she says, you know, I'd give that money back. If I never had to have freak offs, I never would -- if I never had to have freak offs, I would have agency and autonomy. And she was kind of sobbing at this point, and she said, I wouldn't have had to work so hard to get it back -- her agency and her autonomy.

And that was essentially the final word from her on the witness stand. You know, leaving an underscoring that she wouldn't have wanted to do any of this, and she felt that she had to, for her own safety, for her career, and admittedly, because she loved him as well.

COOPER: Misty, you thought it was a good day for the defense. In some ways?

MISTY MARRIS, TRIAL ATTORNEY AND LEGAL ANALYST: I did, I think if I were the prosecutor, I'd have a little bit of heartburn and I say that because they really effectively used text messages from the time. So you're talking about state of mind at the time all of this is happening.

And many of those text messages showed not only that she was saying, okay, to participating in the freak offs, but also talked about her orchestration, how she was more than just a passive participant that she seemed to actually want to engage in them through text messages. And I think that's important because you're talking about looking at this now in retrospect, right?

We know that she's gone through therapy and she's looking at this. And what the defense will argue is, in retrospect, she's in a healthy relationship now. She's looking back and saying, I can't believe he made me do this. But the text messages show a story where she was consenting at the time. So, from his perspective, she was a participant who was willing to engage in the conduct.

COOPER: Elie, I mean, you've tried major human trafficking cases, that's what these charges are -- trafficking?

HONIG: Yes the charge that carries the heavy hit here is going to be forcible sex trafficking and then racketeering.

I think Misty is exactly right. I think there's a problem for the prosecution in that, there are indications that this relationship was at times consensual. But I think the response I would be readying if I was the prosecution is okay, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, there were times when this was consensual. There were times when this was coercive.

Guess what that adds up to coercion, right? It's like if someone has -- if a man and woman have sex ten times and seven times are consensual and three times are coercive, he's a rapist, right? So I think I would be readying that response.

But they do have a way to prosecutors have a way to go here before they can establish a racketeering enterprise. It is not there yet. They may get there, but they have to show an organized group led by Sean Combs, they call it the Combs Enterprise in the indictment. And not just a rocky, violent relationship. They're going to try to get there but they're not yet.

COOPER: Well, I mean, is it the organization of setting these freak offs up with moving people from state to state and hiring people and --

HONIG: Yes, the allegation, the way they describe in the indictment, the Combs Enterprises, it was a group of people working under and with Sean Combs who were trying to promote his professional reputation, satisfy his sexual urges and protect him from law enforcement. So, it consisted of Combs. Plus, I think they're going to allege bodyguards and other assistants.

MARRIS: Yes and she really laid the foundation because she set the stage, here are going to be the players. It's his bodyguards and other people in his sphere helping him set this up.

She also talked about drugs, guns, kidnapping. When you when you think about that 2016 video and what I think on redirect, the prosecution did very effectively is tie the violence to the freak offs, especially with respect to that video, she said. I was being dragged back into the room. I mean, at least at some point, consent was withdrawn in that particular instance.

[20:20:17]

COOPER: I don't think before when that video came out, I don't think people knew that there allegedly was what they called the freak offs occurring in the background in that video in the room where she was running from

SCANNELL: Right, and Combs' team has been arguing that it wasn't a freak off. They were questioning the security guard who testified at the start of the week about if there was someone else in the room. He said he had seen someone and they were trying to suggest that there wasn't anyone else there.

Now, through her testimony, she put the name of someone who was there. So, now there's two people saying there was someone there. But this is part of what the defense strategy is to say. This was a fight over jealousy. He had seen something in her phone and that was domestic violence. It wasn't sex trafficking.

COOPER: So what's coming up now in the trial?

SCANNELL: So, right on the stand today, the last witness of the day was a singer who was in a band that was signed by Combs, and she testified that she was in a kitchen and seen combs attempt to hit Ventura in the head with a skillet with eggs in it.

She will be back on the stand on Monday, and the prosecution said they're also planning to call next week. Ventura's former best friend, who was with her during this entire relationship and witnessed some of the assaults, according to Ventura, as well as her mother. And then also some more of these escorts.

COOPER: Misty Marris, Kara Scannell, thank you so much, Elie Honig as well. Thank you.

Coming up, don't miss a special edition by the way, of Laura Coates live at 11:00 P.M. Eastern tonight, focused on the Combs' trial. A lot more details.

Next for us tonight, more breaking news. The President says James Comey, the FBI Director, he once fired, just called for his assassination and the Secret Service, has now interviewed Comey. This is the picture that got Comey in trouble. Shells on a beach spelling out "86 47." What's likely to happen now ahead?

Also, the man who stabbed author Salman Rushdie, blinding him in one eye, nearly killing him, has been sentenced. We'll tell you how long he'll be locked up for. And my conversation with Rushdie for CBS' "60 Minutes," his first television interview since the stabbing.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:26:42]

COOPER: The President is accusing a former director of the FBI of advocating for his assassination. James Comey laid today, left his home, went to the Secret Service's D.C. field office, and submitted himself to questioning about a photo he posted this photo on Instagram. "Cool shell formation on my beach walk," he writes. It spells out "86 47." Donald Trump is the 47th President, and the 47th President says he knows what 86 means, and so does James Comey.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: He knew exactly what that meant. A child knows what that meant.

If you're the FBI director and you don't know what that meant, that meant assassination. And it says it loud and clear. Now, he wasn't very competent, but he was competent enough to know what that meant. And he did it for a reason and he was hit so hard because people like me, they like what's happening with our country. Our country has become respected again. And all this, and he's calling for the assassination of the President.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, the President's son, Don, Jr., posted this as well: "James Comey casually calling for my dad to be murdered."

For his part, Mr. Comey pulled down his post, then put up a note reading in part: "I didn't realize some folks associate those numbers with violence. It never occurred to me, but I oppose violence of any kind, so I took the post down."

Joining us now with more on the Comey questioning and all the rest, CNN chief law enforcement intelligence analyst John Miller. First of all, what have you learned about Comey's interview with the

Secret Service? Anything?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: So the Comey interview was remarkable in that the Secret Service came to his house, agents came there and picked him up and drove him to the Secret Service. Now, voluntary interview, not in custody, but it was certainly -- it was certainly done with the impression of, we're bringing you in to talk about this.

He's the former director of the FBI, former Deputy Attorney General of the United States, former U.S. attorney here in Manhattan.

COOPER: But is that something he would have agreed to or had no choice or --

MILLER: It was something he would have agreed to. But I think the tenor of today, between DHS and the Secret Service is, do we need to get warrants to go up on his electronics? Do we need to pick him up and bring him in?

So, it was agreed he would come in with his lawyer. The interview would be unremarkable, because they would go through a standard list of questions. They know his name and his background. Where you're currently employed? What weapons do you have or have access to? Where are they now?

When you took this photograph, were these shells already there? When you posted this and put that caption on, what did you mean?

Did you mean this is as a threat to the President?

You go through the list, which is why the interview lasted less than an hour. And it's also why he walked out of the building and was driven home by the same Secret Service people not in custody.

COOPER: He said he didn't realize some folks associate those numbers with violence. In your -- I mean, is 86 an inherently violent term?

MILLER: I am the son and the brother of a bartender. You know, grew up in bars my whole life, 86 means you can't drink here anymore. You're a bum, you got to get out. The interpretation that it is a call to violence if you go on social media. And I think we've got some pictures of this, you can go on Etsy, Amazon, eBay, and there are dozens of images of 86, 46. That was Joe Biden. Those things are still for sale and much discounted right now.

But then if you flip over after the election, there's an array of materials saying 86 47 -- t-shirts, coffee cups, floral arrangements, the entire array of things.

So the question from an investigative standpoint is are these threats? If "86 47" arrayed in shells on the beach, was as the as the Homeland Security Secretary just tweeted a call to assassinate the President, then do they investigate any of these companies, these websites, these distributors? Did the Secret Service subpoena a list of the people who ordered these shirts? Where is the double standard?

[20:30:47]

In the NYPD, we did hundreds of these cases, threats of, we're going to kill the mayor, we're going to shoot the senator. We think this guy should be hung or lynched. We brought lots of those to prosecutors that were far more specific, true threats than this, and they were turned down based on the interview, the investigation.

So, if I had walked in with this case to the U.S. Attorney's Office or the D.A., they would have thrown me out.

COOPER: So, you think -- I mean, does it go anything beyond this interview?

MILLER: Well, so, that is the interesting question. Now, the Secret Service is going to write up their investigation of this incident, right? I don't think they went back to the beach and relocated the shells and swabbed them for DNA to see who actually placed them there. But the Comey bit will be written up based on the interview and based on that report and based on their findings and sent to the U.S. Attorney.

So, starting tonight, it's really going to be out of the hands of the Secret Service and in the hands of the U.S. Attorney to figure out does this fit Title 18 U.S. Code Section 871 or any of the other sections dealing with threats through interstate commerce to public officials. And I think --

COOPER: Is that the U.S. Attorney Ed Martin?

MILLER: So, Ed Martin is now being replaced --

COOPER: It's now Jeanine Pirro.

MILLER: -- by Jeanine Pirro --

COOPER: Yes.

MILLER: -- a famous former prosecutor in Westchester and regular Fox host who's had plenty to say about James Comey, but it may very well be the U.S. Attorney in North Carolina where this beach was and where these shells were. They're still going to have to figure out is there a charge that fits the law? I think they're going to have a real challenge.

All right, John Miller, thanks very much.

President Trump slamming Taylor Swift and The Boss, Bruce Springsteen. What the president wrote in his history of both of them coming up.

And also sentencing day for the man convicted of stabbing author Solomon Rushdie, leaving him blind in one eye. You'll hear from Rushdie in my 60 Minutes interview with him detailing the attack that nearly killed him.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

SALMAN RUSHDIE, INDIAN-BRITISH NOVELIST: I confess I had sometimes imagined my assassin rising up in some public forum or other and coming for me in just this way. So my first thought when I saw this murderous shape rushing towards me was, so it's you. Here you are.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:37:36]

COOPER: In an upstate New York courtroom, the man who tried to kill author Salman Rushdie and repeatedly stabbed him on a stage in 2022, leaving him blind in one eye and nearly dead, was sentenced to 25 years in prison. The maximum sentence in seven years for wounding another man. The defendant still faces a federal trial and terrorism charges related to the attack.

The 77-year-old author has been a marked man for most of his life. In 1989, Iran's leader at the time described Rushdie's fourth book, "The Satanic Verses", as an insult to Islam and called for his death. Rushdie then went into hiding for a decade. Eventually he moved to the U.S. and thought he was safe. But then the stabbing attack occurred.

Last year I talked with Rushdie about the attack, which he wrote about in a book called "Knife". This was his first television interview about what happened for CBS' 60 Minutes.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

COOPER: You had had a dream two days, I think it was, before the attack. What was the dream?

RUSHDIE: I kind of had a premonition. I mean, I had a dream of being attacked in an amphitheater. It was a kind of Roman Empire dream, you know, as if I was in the Coliseum and it was just somebody with a spear stabbing downwards and I was rolling around on the floor trying to get away from him.

And I woke up and was quite shaken by it. And I had to go to Chautauqua, you know, and I said to my wife Eliza, I said, you know, I don't want to go.

COOPER: Because of the dream?

RUSHDIE: Because of the dream. And then I thought, don't be silly, it's a dream.

COOPER (voice-over): Salman Rushdie, one of his generation's most acclaimed writers, had been invited to the town of Chautauqua, close to Lake Erie, to speak about a subject he knows all too well, the importance of protecting writers whose lives are under threat.

COOPER: Did you have any anxiety being in such a public space?

RUSHDIE: Not really, because in the -- on the more than 20 years that I've been living in America, I've done a lot of these things.

COOPER: You haven't had security around you --

RUSHDIE: A long time.

COOPER: -- a close protection detail for a long time.

RUSHDIE: Long time. But, you know, what happens in many places that you go and lecture is that they're used to having a certain degree of security, venue security. In this case, there wasn't any.

COOPER: The irony, of course, is you were there to talk about writers in danger.

RUSHDIE: Yes, exactly. And the need for writers from other countries to have safe spaces in America, amongst other places. And then, yes, it just turned out not to be a safe space for me.

COOPER (voice-over): For years, no place was safe for Salman Rushdie. His sprawling 600-page novel, "The Satanic Verses", offended some Muslims for its depiction of the Prophet Muhammad.

[20:40:09]

Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa, a religious decree calling for Rushdie's death in 1989. There were worldwide protests from London to Lahore. "The Satanic Verses" was burned, and 12 people died in clashes with police. The book's Japanese translator was murdered, and others associated with it were attacked.

COOPER: Did you have any idea that it would cause violence?

RUSHDIE: No, I had no idea. I thought probably some Conservative religious people wouldn't like it, but they didn't like anything I wrote anyway. So I thought, well, they don't have to read it.

COOPER: Were you naive?

RUSHDIE: Probably. You know, I mean, it's easy looking back to think, but nothing like this had ever happened to anybody. And, of course, almost all the people who attacked the book did so without reading it.

I was often told that I had intended to insult, offend people. My view was, if I need to insult you, I can do it really quickly. I don't need to spend five years of my life trying to write a 600-page book to insult you.

COOPER (voice-over): Rushdie was living in London when he went into hiding, and for the next 10 years, the British government provided him with 24-hour police protection.

COOPER: Did people try to kill you?

RUSHDIE: Yes. There were maybe as many as half a dozen serious assassination attempts, which were not random people. They were state- sponsored terrorism professionals. COOPER (voice-over): After diplomatic negotiations, the Iranian state called off its assassins in 1998. Rushdie finally came out of the shadows. He moved to New York and for the next two decades lived openly. He was a man about town. He continued writing, became a celebrated advocate for freedom of expression.

So when he received the invitation to speak in Chautauqua in August 2022, he gladly accepted.

RUSHDIE: I was seated at stage right.

COOPER (voice-over): In his new book, "Knife," he describes what happened next.

RUSHDIE: Then in the corner of my right eye, the last thing my right eye would ever see, I saw the man in black running towards me down the right-hand side of the seating area. Black clothes, black face mask. He was coming in hard and low, a squat missile.

I confess I had sometimes imagined my assassin rising up in some public forum or other and coming for me in just this way. So my first thought when I saw this murderous shape rushing towards me was, so it's you. Here you are.

COOPER: So it's you. Here you are.

RUSHDIE: Yes.

COOPER: It's like you've been waiting for it.

RUSHDIE: Yes, that's what it felt like. It felt like something coming out of the distant past and trying to drag me back in time, if you like, back into that distant past in order to kill me. And when he got to me, he basically hit me very hard here. And initially I thought I'd been punched.

COOPER: You didn't actually see a knife?

RUSHDIE: I didn't see the knife. And I didn't realize until I saw blood coming out that there had been a knife in his fist.

COOPER: So where was that stab?

RUSHDIE: Here.

COOPER: In your neck?

RUSHDIE: In my neck, yes. Then there were a lot more. The worst wounds was there was a big slash wound like this across my neck. And there was a puncture stab wound here. And then, of course, there was an attack on my eye.

COOPER: Do you remember being stabbed in the eye?

RUSHDIE: No. I remember falling, then I remember not knowing what had happened to my eye. COOPER (voice-over): He was also stabbed in his hand, chest, abdomen, and thigh. 15 wounds in all.

COOPER: He was both stabbing and also slashing.

RUSHDIE: Stabbing and also slashing. I think he was just wildly --

COOPER (voice-over): The attack lasted 27 seconds. To feel just how long that is --

COOPER: This is what 27 seconds is.

That's it.

RUSHDIE: That's quite a long time. That's the extraordinary half minute of intimacy in which life meets death.

COOPER: What stopped it from being longer?

RUSHDIE: The audience pulling him off me.

COOPER: Strangers to you?

RUSHDIE: To this day, I don't know their names.

COOPER (voice-over): Some of those strangers restrained the attacker while others desperately tried to stem the flow of Rushdie's blood.

RUSHDIE: There was really a lot of blood.

COOPER: You were actually watching your blood.

RUSHDIE: I was actually watching it spread. And then I remember thinking that I was probably dying. And it was interesting because it was quite matter-of-fact. It wasn't like I was terrified of it or whatever.

[20:45:02]

And, yes, there was nothing. No heavenly choirs. No pearly gates. I mean, I'm not a supernatural person. You know, I believe that death comes as the end. There was nothing that happened that made me change my mind about that.

COOPER: You have not had a revelation.

RUSHDIE: I have not had any revelation except that there's no revelation to be had.

COOPER (voice-over): His attacker, the man in black, was hustled off the stage.

COOPER: In the book, you do not use the attacker's name.

RUSHDIE: Yes. I thought, you know, I don't want his name in my book. And I don't use it in conversation either. COOPER: But that is important to you, not to give him space in your brain.

RUSHDIE: Yes. He and I had 27 seconds together. You know, that's it. I don't need to give him any more of my time.

COOPER (voice-over): Paramedics flew Rushdie to a hospital in Erie, Pennsylvania, 40 miles away, where a team of doctors battled for eight hours to save his life. When he finally came out of surgery, his wife, Eliza, a poet and novelist, was waiting.

RACHEL ELIZA GRIFFITHS, WIFE OF SALMAN RUSHDIE: I mean, he wasn't moving, and he was just laid out.

COOPER: He looked half-dead to you.

GRIFFITHS: Yes, he did. He was a different color. He was cold. I mean, his face was stapled, just staples holding his face together.

COOPER (voice-over): Rushdie was on a ventilator, unable to speak. Eliza and the doctors had no idea whether the knife that had penetrated his eye had damaged his brain.

GRIFFITHS: Someone from the staff said that we would use this system of wiggling the toes.

COOPER: To communicate?

GRIFFITHS: To communicate.

COOPER: Do you remember the first question you asked to get a wiggle or?

GRIFFITHS: I think I said, Salman, it's Eliza, can you hear me? And there was a wiggle. And I asked him, I think, can you -- do you know where you are? And he wiggled. And it was very basic, simple questions.

RUSHDIE: Because you can't express yourself with any subtlety with your toes.

GRIFFITHS: Which is your favorite thing.

COOPER (voice-over): After 18 days in the hospital and three weeks in rehab, Rushdie was discharged.

RUSHDIE: One of the surgeons who had saved my life said to me, first you were really unlucky and then you were really lucky. I said, what's the lucky part? He said, well, the lucky part is that the man who attacked you had no idea how to kill a man with a knife.

COOPER: You're not a believer in miracles. But the fact that you survived, you write in the book, is a miracle.

RUSHDIE: This is a contradiction. How does somebody who doesn't believe in the supernatural account for the fact that something has happened which feels like a miracle? And I certainly don't feel that some hand reached down from the skies and guarded me. But I do think something happened which wasn't supposed to happen. And I have no explanation for it.

COOPER (voice-over): His attacker was a 24-year-old from New Jersey who lived in his mother's basement. He's believed to be a lone wolf. He's pleaded not guilty to attempted murder and is awaiting trial.

In an interview, he told the New York Post he'd only read a couple pages of "The Satanic Verses" and seen some clips of Rushdie on YouTube. He said he didn't like him very much because Rushdie had attacked Islam.

COOPER: Does it matter to you what his motive was?

RUSHDIE: I mean, it's interesting to me because it's a mystery. If I had written a character who knew so little about his proposed victim and yet was willing to commit the crime of murder, my publishers might well say to me that that's under-motivated.

COOPER: You need to develop that character better --

RUSHDIE: Yes, not enough of a reason. You know, not convincing. But yet, that's what he did.

COOPER (voice-over): Rushdie's "Knife," his 22nd book, is one he initially did not want to write.

RUSHDIE: That was the last thing I wanted to do.

COOPER: Because you didn't want this to yet again define you?

RUSHDIE: Yes, it was very difficult for me after "The Satanic Verses" was published, that the only thing anybody knew about me was this death threat. But it became clear to me that I couldn't write anything else.

COOPER: You had to write this first before --

RUSHDIE: I had to write this first. I just thought, you know, I need to focus on, you know, to use the cliche, the elephant in the room. And the moment I thought that, kind of something changed in my head and it then became a book I really very much wanted to write.

COOPER: You say that language was my knife. "If I had unexpectedly been caught in an unwanted knife fight, maybe this was the knife I could use to fight back, to take charge of what had happened to me, to own it, make it mine."

RUSHDIE: Yes, I mean, language is a way of breaking open the world. I don't have any other weapons, but I've been using this particular tool for quite a long time. So I thought this was my way of dealing with it.

COOPER (voice-over): It's been almost two years since the attack, and Rushdie is back home now in New York, slowly getting used to navigating the world with one eye.

COOPER: How much time did it take to kind of readjust?

RUSHDIE: I'm still doing it.

COOPER: You still are?

RUSHDIE: Yes.

COOPER: Do you feel like you are a different person after the attack?

RUSHDIE: I don't feel I'm very different, but I do feel that it has left a shadow. I think that shadow is just there, and some days it's dark and some days it's not.

[20:50:08]

COOPER: Do you feel less than you were before?

RUSHDIE: No, I just feel more the presence of death.

COOPER: In an interview almost 25 years ago, you said of the fatwa, "I want to find an end to this story. It is the one story I must find an end to". Have you found that ending, and an ending to this story as well?

RUSHDIE: Well, I thought I had, and then it turned out I hadn't. I'm hoping this is just a last twitch of that story. I don't know, I'll let you know.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

COOPER: Salman Rushdie.

Up next, President Trump played music from Bruce Springsteen at some campaign rallies, but now the president is going after Bruce Springsteen after Springsteen had some unkind words about him at a recent concert. Harry Enten joins me for that up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:55:33]

COOPER: An update now on our breaking news, the mass jailbreak in New Orleans. Just moments ago, the Orleans Parish Sheriff's Department said that one of the escapees has been caught the second, actually, so far. His name is Robert Moody. One of the other escapees, Kendall Miles, was captured earlier today after deputies found him hiding under a car at a hotel parking garage.

Officials continue to search for the eight remaining inmates described as armed and dangerous.

More of this throughout the night, President Trump, though, is attacking Taylor Swift again, also Bruce Springsteen. Mr. Springsteen and Mr. Trump have had a long history of being at odds with each other. Unclear exactly when it began, but Springsteen called Mr. Trump a moron back in 2016, and it seems to have devolved from there.

Springsteen campaigned for Kamala Harris. And this Wednesday night at a concert in England, he said this about the president.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN, AMERICAN SINGER-SONGWRITER AND GUITARIST: In my home, the America I love, the America I've written about, that has been a beacon of hope and liberty for 250 years, is currently in the hands of a corrupt, incompetent, and treasonous administration.

Tonight, we ask all who believe in democracy and the best of our American experience to rise with us, raise your voices against authoritarianism, and let freedom ring.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

COOPER: Mr. Springsteen made several more comments that night about President Trump and then posted clips of what he said on Instagram. President Trump certainly did see those, or at least he heard about them, and he didn't take too kindly to Springsteen's words.

Posting on social media today, "Never liked him, never liked his music or his radical left politics. And importantly, he's not a talented guy, just a pushy, obnoxious jerk. This dried out prune of a rocker. His skin is all atrophied. Ought to keep his mouth shut until he gets back into the country, that's just standard fare. Then we'll all see how it goes for him".

Springsteen wasn't the only musical artist on the president's mind, apparently. He also randomly attacked Taylor Swift again for no clear reason, writing, "Has anyone noticed that since I said I hate Taylor Swift, she's no longer hot?"

Our numbers guy, CNN's Chief Data Analyst, Harry Enten, joins me now. I'm not exactly sure what he means by hot.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: No, he (INAUDIBLE).

COOPER: I'm going to assume he's talking about popularity. Is there any evidence of that?

ENTEN: You know, I called up or spoke with one of Taylor Swift's biggest fans, my sister's -- my girlfriend's sister, Brooke, and she informs me she's still a huge fan of Taylor Swift. And, you know --

COOPER: You know, I have a friend named Antonio, and he's a huge fan as well.

ENTEN: Yes.

COOPER: And still a huge fan.

ENTEN: Exactly. So he'd be --

COOPER: He actually won like a -- some sort of celebration and got to go to a pizza party at her house.

ENTEN: Oh, what?

COOPER: Yes.

ENTEN: Brooke would be very, very jealous. But those are anecdotes. Let's bring it out worldwide, OK?

COOPER: Sure.

ENTEN: Let's take a look at the charts. Let's take a look at the monthly Spotify charts. Guess how many listeners last month Taylor Swift had? She had 82.6 million.

COOPER: Wow.

ENTEN: That is 10th. That is 10th on the list. And keep in mind, of course, she hasn't actually released an album within the last year, basically. So she's still near the top of the list, despite the fact that she isn't releasing new music at this particular point.

Now, I will say that there is some evidence that her popularity overall has declined since the Trump attacks. So you can take a look at her net favorable rating, take a look before and after the Trump attacks, the ones that happened.

COOPER: Who compiles a net favorable rating about people?

ENTEN: Well, Fox News and NBC polled it, and I average it together, because that's what I do.

COOPER: OK.

ENTEN: It's Harry's average.

COOPER: Let's talk about Springsteen. Full disclosure, I'm a fan of him, as I am a fan of Taylor Swift. And actually, my cousin, John Hammond, was very involved in his early career. Is there -- how's his tour doing?

ENTEN: Yes, his tour's doing absolutely fantastic. Again, if you speak with my buddy Vinny, he is still a huge fan of Bruce Springsteen.

COOPER: Your buddy Vinny.

ENTEN: My buddy Vinny from Jersey. I was down in Asbury Park just a few weeks ago. Look, if you look at his tour right now, how much it's grossed, look, it's tremendous. We're talking about $631 million.

COOPER: Wow.

ENTEN: It's the seventh all-time. Taylor Swift, for comparison --

COOPER: Wow.

ENTEN: -- she's number one on the list. Her Eras Tour get that $2.1 billion. They are, as my favorite Liberace once said, crying all the way to the bank, baby.

COOPER: Liberace said that?

ENTEN: Yes, I believe he did. After he won a libel suit.

COOPER: Oh, that was the reference to that?

ENTEN: Yes. Yes.

COOPER: OK. It wasn't sort of some "Behind the Candelabra" thing.

ENTEN: No, no, no, though that was a great film. I believe it aired on HBO.

COOPER: I believe so, yes. The Scott Thorson story --

ENTEN: Yes.

COOPER: -- I believe, was the -- yes.

ENTEN: Yes. I'll give you one little last nugget for you, by the way, in terms of --

COOPER: Yes, and know where it's going.

ENTEN: We're talking about crying all the way to the bank.

COOPER: Yes, yes.

ENTEN: Look at Taylor Swift's net worth from 2024 to 2025.

COOPER: Sure.

ENTEN: It actually went up. She's a billionaire and even more of a billionaire. You know how else is a billionaire?

COOPER: No.

ENTEN: Bring Springsteen's also a billionaire. They're both --

COOPER: There you go.

ENTEN: -- crying all the way to the bank.

COOPER: All right. Harry Enten, thanks very much.

ENTEN: Thank you.

COOPER: Very talented, both of them.

ENTEN: Yes.

COOPER: Quick program you know about this weekend, don't miss Dr. Sanjay Gupta reports "Animal Pharm", his years-long investigation on an experimental technique that could change organ transplantation. This is fascinating. That's Sunday at 8:00 Eastern Pacific right here on CNN.

That's all for us. The news continues. I hope you have a great weekend. "The Source" with Kaitlan Collins starts now.