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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Musk Slams Trump Bill, Vows To Help Defeat Republicans Who Vote For The Legislation; Interview With Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-CT); Sen. Thom Tillis Announces He's Not Seeking Reelection; Bryan Kohberger Agrees To Plea Deal In Idaho Student Killings; Jury In Sean "Diddy" Combs Trial Ends First Day Of Deliberations Without A Verdict. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired June 30, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But I've got to tell you, one of thing is for us, they believe this is going to be the first of many trials that they want to cover in what they believe is a budding career -- Brianna.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: What an ecosystem you captured there outside of that trial.
Brynn Gingras live outside the courthouse in New York, thank you so much. And thank you so much for joining. AC360 starts right now.
[20:00:15]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, with the Senate about to vote on the President's must-pass bill, Elon Musk tells Republicans vote yes and say goodbye to another term.
Also tonight, it's being called, "Alligator Alcatraz." What went into the making of a new ICE detention camp in the Everglades? Who will be sent there and who is trying to stop it?
And later, breaking news, the man accused of murdering four college students takes a plea deal. How it came about and where it leaves four families seeking justice.
Good evening, John Berman here in for Anderson. And we begin tonight with what President Trump calls his Big, Beautiful Bill, which could be headed for a final vote in the Senate after a long day of debating amendments to it. And perhaps for some Republican members staring into the abyss. Here's why -- polling consistently shows it is strikingly unpopular with voters.
The congressional budget office estimates it adds more than $3 trillion to the national debt, and could deprive nearly 12 million Americans of health insurance through Medicaid. That, and it now comes with a double dose of existential terror for Republicans on the fence.
On the one hand, the President over the weekend managed to drive one opponent of the bill out of seeking another term. On the other, Elon Musk has just weighed in on anyone voting, yes, quoting him now, "Every member of Congress who campaigned on reducing government spending and then immediately voted for the biggest debt increase in history should hang their head in shame."
And if that weren't enough, he adds, "And they will lose their primary next year. If it is the last thing I do on this Earth." Now, given that his Mars mission won't be ready to go for years, that's a lot of primaries. But that's not all, he also reiterated his call from three weeks ago for a new political party, and said he would start one a day after the bill passes.
Rock meet hard place, North Carolina's Thom Tillis chose the rock, announcing that he will not seek another term, and he slammed the President on the bill's Medicaid cuts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): What do I tell 663,000 people in two years or three years, when President Trump breaks his promise by pushing them off of Medicaid because the funding is not there anymore?
Guys, it is inescapable that this bill in its current form, will betray the very promise that Donald J. Trump made in the Oval Office.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So today, White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt said that Senator Tillis is and these are her words, just wrong.
But listen to what the President has been saying on this subject going back a decade and decide for yourself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Save Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security without cuts. Have to do it.
We are going to love and cherish Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid. We're not going to do anything with that.
REPORTER: Can you guarantee that Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security will not be touched?
TRUMP: Yes, I mean, I have said it so many times, you shouldn't be asking me that question.
KRISTEN WELKER, NBC NEWS: What happens if it comes to your desk? Has the tax cuts, but also cuts to Medicaid? Would you veto that?
TRUMP: Well, we're not doing that. No --
WELKER: Would you veto that?
TRUMP: I would if they were cutting it, but they're not cutting it. We're not cutting Medicaid, we're not cutting Medicare.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: A lot to get to tonight. CNN chief White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins starts us off. Kaitlan, how concerned is the White House about potential cracks in the Republican coalition?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I mean, they're watching all of this and watching Senator Thom Tillis, you know, in that scathing floor speech on Sunday, John. But then, of course, after he announced that he was not going to be seeking reelection, the President was cheerleading that and saying, essentially, good riddance to Thom Tillis, given they believe he's been a thorn in their side during all of this.
And John, obviously, when they look at this overall, and I've been talking to White House officials about what they think is ultimately going to happen here, they do think this will pass. They don't think Republicans are going to defy the President on his signature legislation as big and sweeping as it is, and with those potential cuts, the question is how long it's going to take to get this through, to get this done. And that's what they've been watching, obviously, very closely at the White House.
But with Senator Tillis there as he's coming out and he's saying that the President is being misinformed by his advisers on what is actually in this bill and that its going to make him essentially go back on the promises that you just heard him say there about not interfering with peoples' Medicaid benefits. I mean, the White House is just flatly rejecting that and arguing that its wrong. But I think you have to look at, you know, with Tillis' decision yesterday to say he's not going to be seeking reelection, he doesn't really have a lot to lose here in terms of why he is speaking out and why he is saying that, or any incentive to say something that that he doesn't actually think could put Republicans in peril.
And so, that is something they're watching, obviously, closely at the White House. They just essentially want to get this passed. They want to be able to talk about tax cuts and have that as something that they are trumpeting. And you're seeing how the President is working on this in terms of writing scathing Truth Social posts of social posts of people who are disagreeing with him and also taking senators out for golfing trips, calling them up on the phone and chatting with them as this slog right now on Capitol Hill is happening, with all these amendments that they are trying to get passed, none of them so far have gotten passed.
[20:05:32]
BERMAN: Well, speaking of people who disagree with him, Elon Musk came out with a new/old threat today saying he would primary or, you know, push to primary any lawmakers who support this bill. That's a split again with the President. How does the White House view this?
COLLINS: Well, it's interesting because a few White House officials were surprised that he came out today and said this, given he had gone largely quiet on his criticisms of the President and of legislation that he's trying to get passed.
He had actually come out and said he regretted some of the things he said about Trump when they were sniping back and forth at one another previously. And so, now to look at this, what he's saying, he's going after this and saying Democrats and Republicans are both in the wrong here. A new political party needs to be formed that that all of Washington, he says, is in agreement more than they are in disagreement and threatening to primary Republicans who vote yes on this.
Obviously, John, that has a lot of Republicans who are likely expected to vote yes on this, that he's saying that he would be going after, but he's essentially trying to highlight what he says is the criticism of Republicans who complain about big spending in Washington and then are about to vote on this, given the estimates that we've seen, including from the budget office this weekend, of just how much this is going to add to the deficit.
BERMAN: Yes, it's a lot of primaries. You better have deep pockets. Kaitlan Collins, thank you very much. And of course, you can join Kaitlan at the top of the hour for "The Source." She's going to speak to Senator Elizabeth Warren tonight.
Right now, let's bring in Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut. He's on the Armed Services and Judiciary Committee. Senator, nice to see you. Any prediction on what will happen tonight and what time?
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): Certainly, I have no prediction on time. And I've just come from the Senate floor. There's a real question about whether they have the votes. They are really struggling because they face this dilemma of making $4.5 trillion in tax cuts, which require them to make slashing cuts in Medicaid, in nutrition programs, and aid to veterans and student loans and much, much more, which will have really drastic effects on their constituents.
So, right now, they're engaged in this horse trading kind of process, providing exemptions or exceptions for parts of populations in certain states, trying to get their approval with earmarks, as they used to be known and the reason they're struggling is that the American people get it. That's why two-to-one, they disapprove of this bill.
The tax cuts for the billionaires of $4.5 trillion are absolutely necessary. Ballooning national debt by $3.3 trillion, absolutely abhorrent. And so, I think that they're going to be struggling for the better part of this evening, maybe into tomorrow morning or later.
BERMAN: What does Senator Tillis, his announcement that he won't seek re-election, what does that tell you?
BLUMENTHAL: What it tells me is that any Republican who stands up to Donald Trump will be hit by this torrent of vitriol and vehement threats and intimidation. And so, Donald Trump is running this show. He is betraying not only his own promises, but the values and promises that Republicans have made to their constituents and what Tillis' decision tells me is their positions in many ways have become unsustainable, both politically and morally.
BERMAN: How does it feel to be aligned with Elon Musk tonight, who also opposes this bill? And what difference do you think that his speaking out today will make? BLUMENTHAL: Well, needless to say, Elon Musk and I are not
coordinating our public positions, but I think he has it right. And the numbers tell the story, not only the debt that will balloon and the real suffering that people will see in their everyday lives, kids who break their arms on playgrounds, or women who find a lump in their breast and they go to the emergency room, they're uncovered. Seniors who are kicked out of nursing homes. The pain is undeniable, and Elon Musk may not feel or see that pain. But top line, he knows the financial markets are going to begin reacting to the levels of debt that will be generated.
The economy is at risk. The ramifications and ripple effects throughout the economy will be terrible. And I will just say one more thing, John. You know, the Republicans have corrupted this Democratic process. They have, in effect, relied on an accounting trick, it is called baseline budgeting and the baseline current policy that enables them to disguise a part of the effect on national debt.
So, this reliance on accounting tricks on corrupting the reconciliation process, which was designed only for budgeting, they're hurting all kinds of policy restrictions I think will be seen by the American people as fundamentally destructive of the Democratic process.
[20:10:58]
BERMAN: Well, we will see certainly maybe see what happens in the Senate sometime tonight. Senator Blumenthal, thank you so much for your time.
Perspective now from CNN political director David Chalian; former Illinois Republican congressman, now CNN senior political commentator, Adam Kinzinger and Republican pollster and CNN political commentator, Kristen Soltis Anderson.
David, let me start with you. You know, where is this headed tonight and what are you learning so far in this process?
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, I think the smart money still says its headed towards passage. What we're learning, I think is, is two-fold here. When you talk to Republicans, John, you hear a repetition of what you've heard from Speaker Johnson, from Leader Thune at times, that failure here is not an option. And why is that? Because a lot of the Republicans on the Hill look back to Trump's first term when they failed to pass the repeal of Obamacare and that they think really depressed their voters, that they didn't come through with a with a promise and deliver on it, even though that wasn't necessarily the popular position and that that caused them significant losses in 2018.
That's their perspective and they don't want to repeat that. So they are looking to have a victory here and take the uphill sales job with the American public over the next year and a half, rather than go down in defeat and potentially depress their voters.
I would just say though, we have not seen any change to this bill yet. And so, what we've seen all day is this typical process of lots and lots of message amendments. Basically, each side can craft campaign ads around putting up an amendment vote that they know is not going to pass simply to have, you know, the script writing process for stump speeches and campaign ads. That's what we've been seeing today.
BERMAN: Yes, this is political, commercial production largely we're seeing right now on the Senate floor.
Congressman Kinzinger, as I'm asking you, as someone who as a Republican congressman opposed then-President Trump ultimately decided to not run for reelection. Is there a way to oppose Donald Trump and not basically quit as Senator Tillis did?
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, there's a way you can just do it. But, you know, it scares people. They're scared to death to do it because you lose some of your friends. You get these text messages from people that say they're disappointed in you and you ultimately really want to keep your job because that's your identity.
But yes, I mean, you could just stand up and do it. I mean, Thom Tillis should have been speaking like this before he made the decision not to run again. He could have stopped a bunch of these nominees, by the way. And when it comes to this bill, it is so incredibly unpopular.
But I've got to tell you, your prior guest, I mean, the good senator, I have no idea what his message was. You know, it's kind of all over the place. The fact is, $700 billion is being cut from people that need it to give a break to the very wealthy, most of whom will not even notice it because their accountant does all their tax work and that is why its unpopular.
Hammer that message home, they're spending, I think, upwards of $150 billion to ICE, nothing for Ukraine. And obviously cutting the taxes of those that don't need it. I mean this is a terrible bill. I don't know what the opposition message is to it.
BERMAN: You know, Kristen, let me ask you, Congressman Kinzinger said this bill is very unpopular, to quote Johnny Carson, how unpopular is it?
KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it really depends on how you word the question. And this perhaps, more than any bill I've seen recently, is so susceptible to that dynamic because it is one big bill that includes hundreds of different things. If I poll test it, do you believe that you should only get government benefits for health care if you're working? If you're able bodied, people will say yes. Do you think that government benefits should only go to people who are here legally? People will say yes.
But if you say, do you want to cut Medicaid? People will say no. If you say, do you want to cut government spending on the following programs that people all like? They'll say no. And so, this is one of those bills where how it gets messaged and which party sort of wins that war for defining what are the main marquee things people take from this bill is going to win. For Republicans, they're banking on the notion that by passing this
bill, enshrining into law the tax cuts that they began in 2017, keep that going for a longer term. If the economy is good next November, that they will benefit and they will avoid a disastrous midterm. Democrats, on the other hand, are really hoping that if this bill passes, that the personal effects people feel will be enough, that they'll overwhelm any proposed macroeconomic benefit you're getting from this.
[20:15:37]
BERMAN: It sounds like what David Chalian was saying before, this is all about messaging right now, trying to make sure your message is the one that's heard.
David, what about Elon Musk's message today? Kaitlan Collins was reporting for the White House just a few minutes ago. The White House was a little surprised that he jumped back in as much as he did today, saying he would primary Republicans who voted for this. How much of a difference will it make?
CHALIAN: Yes, I think we saw also that he now put out on X that he's going to support Thomas Massie, the Republican in the House who voted against the bill that Trump has now promised to, you know, recruit a primary opponent against Musk and Trump will be on the other side of that now.
Listen, my real thing about Elon Musk here, John, is the rhetoric is one thing. We have seen him put his checkbook to work in the 2024 election. I am looking to see when we see his money go into these 2026 midterms. That's when I'll have a better understanding of what Elon Musk's impact will be on this midterm election.
BERMAN: Show me the price tag ultimately on this.
Congressman, finally, you know, what about the money here? When you were a Republican in the house, when you came in the 2010s and whatnot, you know, spending was kind of a big deal. The debt seemed to be a big issue. What happened?
KINZINGER: Yes, I mean, look, I was thinking about this the other day when I came in and the debt was $10 trillion, I don't know, something like that. Its 40 -- almost $40 trillion today. I mean, here's the thing. You could, you know -- we believed as Republicans and I believed at that time, and I think it was the right choice, we needed to grow the economy. We needed to get ourselves out of kind of the morass of 2008 and that's great.
But now we are at $40 trillion in debt. We spend more in interest on our debt than we do on National Defense. I'm sorry you can't grow your way out of this anymore. And if you did grow your way out of this, you would have such hot growth that you would spike inflation and it would basically destroy everybody's wealth.
We have to have a real conversation. I hate when people say real conversation. We need to talk about what the tax rates are in this country, and we really need to talk about how are we going to get out of this. And Republicans, all they've put away, they have an orthodoxy because I was part of this, that simply believes never raise taxes, always cut, it doesn't matter what it looks like.
BERMAN: I look forward to seeing how you talk about it without having a conversation. I will say this, you'll all be back because we're going to talk more about the possibility of a candidate named Trump filling the seat that Thom Tillis now holds.
Also, a preview of the detention facility being called "Alligator Alcatraz," which the President visits tomorrow on opening day.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:22:30]
BERMAN: So, with North Carolina Republican Senator Thom Tillis announcing that he is not seeking another term in the Senate, in no small part due to Donald Trump, the name Trump was already all over this story, and still is, as in Lara Trump, the President's daughter- in-law.
Multiple sources tell CNN she's got the right of first refusal on the President's endorsement should she decide to run for this North Carolina seat. More now from CNN chief data analyst, Harry Enten. Harry, any data yet on what Trump's -- Lara Trump's chances would be for this race?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: Yes, if we take a look at the betting markets, John, at this particular point, she's the runaway favorite to be the GOP nominee for Senate from North Carolina, 48 percent chance of being that nominee. That is way up from where we were just yesterday. Mark Robinson, who's in second, is only at a four percent chance to be the nominee.
If Lara Trump decides to get in the race, that 48 percent will jump very quickly. I'm not quite sure it might be above 90 percent by the time that she gets in. Of course, winning the nomination is one thing. Winning the general election is something else. If you look who the Democrats might put up, it might be former Governor Roy Cooper and Roy Cooper was a fairly popular fellow from North Carolina. You look at his final approval rating, it was north of 50 percent in the State Of North Carolina.
So, she would have an easy run in the primary if she decides to run, but she would have a real fight on her hands in the general election.
BERMAN: So how do relatives of presidents do when they run for office?
ENTEN: Yes, you know, I said to myself, is there any history of this? You know, Ted Kennedy ran in 1962 to be senator from your home state of Massachusetts, he won. However, on the other hand, Hugh Rodham, who, of course, was the brother in law of Bill Clinton, ran in 1994 from Florida, and he lost. So we will have to see whether she's a Kennedy or a Rodham Clinton. I'm not quite sure if Trump wants to be either one, but for history's sake, she'd rather be a Kennedy. BERMAN: I appreciate either of those comparisons.
ENTEN: Yes.
BERMAN: Harry Enten, thank you very much.
Back now with CNN political editor David Chalian, former Congressman Adam Kinzinger, a Republican pollster, Kristen Soltis Anderson.
So, David, let me start with you. What is the resignation, Tillis' resignation mean for the senate map? And what about Lara Trump?
CHALIAN: Yes, well, as you just heard from harry, what it means is that North Carolina, which was poised to have a competitive Senate race this cycle anyway, John, it gets all that more competitive when the incumbent steps away. AXIOS reporting tonight that Roy Cooper, the former popular Democratic governor, is indeed leaning towards a run. A spokesperson said he strongly considering it.
And with Lara Trump, if the field is cleared, a Lara Trump versus Roy Cooper race would attract a ton of money. It would be one of the Democrat's most high profile targets to flip a seat. And yet, John, it still may not alter their tough climb to the majority. It is a tough map for Democrats. They need to get four. And even if they flipped North Carolina and Maine, which would be no easy feat, the next most likely would be places like Iowa, or Ohio, or Florida, or Texas. Pretty Republican States, never mind. They would have to defend their own vulnerable members like Jon Ossoff in Georgia.
[20:25:30]
BERMAN: Yes, it's a hard road for Democrats in the Senate.
CHALIAN: Yes.
BERMAN: Congressman, can any Republican beat a Trump in a primary right now?
KINZINGER: No, I think if our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ran as a Republican, he'd have a hard time at this point. I think -- look, I mean, you know, there's something in the name, right? We've all seen it. I think if she made the decision to run, they would clear the field. You may have somebody that kind of jumps in and just happens to get enough petition signatures or something. But she'll win this, you know, walking away and of course, look, if this happens to be a Democratic year coming up, North Carolina as we know, is a very, very kind of razor thin seat.
Republicans, I think, really do risk losing that seat and probably losing it for a long time. If that's the case.
BERMAN: So, Kristen, Senator Tillis is not the only moderate, so- called moderate Republican to announce he's stepping aside. Republican Congressman Don Bacon from Nebraska; Omaha announced that he's not seeking reelection. What are you seeing in terms of trends here? Might we see more of this type of thing? SOLTIS ANDERSON: Well, I have to imagine that it is not the most fun
in the world to be a moderate or to be a pragmatist and to be in Congress these days. It's pretty tough. I mean, just look at the process we're going through with the one Big, Beautiful Bill. If you want to get something done, you've got to have it in this bill in order to get it done. And it's going to include a lot of things you like and a lot of things you don't like.
And that's just not an environment that I think a sort of pragmatist, moderate or incrementalist-type politician is going to love. But with that said, this is a midterm that Republicans would, in normal times, not be expected to do well in. When you're the party in power, you tend to have a tough year.
So, if you're one of those Republicans who's not just thinking about this is tough times right now in governing, but it's also tough to govern and try to get reelected next November. That may be why retirements looking more appealing.
If I could say one more thing, though, on Lara Trump, I know with the last name, you know, it would be tough for her to distance herself at all from the President as you know, some candidates might try to do in one of these competitive midterms. But remember, she was one of the most effective advocates for President Trump at that Republican convention back last summer. She's incredibly articulate, and I think it would be a mistake to underestimate her as a candidate if she did decide to throw her hat in the ring.
BERMAN: David, you mentioned briefly some of the seats that Democrats have to defend in the Senate. What are Republican opportunities for pickups?
CHALIAN: So certainly it starts with the Jon Ossoff seat in Georgia, a high profile battleground state there. Obviously, and one that -- a state that Donald Trump won in 2024, John. But also look at the open seats in battleground states like Michigan and Minnesota. Obviously, Michigan was a state Donald Trump won as well in 2024, not Minnesota. But those are going to be no sort of walk in the park for Democrats. Those will be open seats that they need to defend as well.
So again, the map is tough to get Democrats the four seats they would need net gain to get a majority in the Senate.
BERMAN: Congressman, 20 seconds or less, what's going to happen in the House?
KINZINGER: You mean is it going to pass this bill? It's going to be tough.
BERMAN: No, I mean, the midterm elections. I mean, Republicans only --
KINZINGER: Oh, look, I think Democrats will win. The question is, do they win big or do they not win big? Again, as I said earlier, I don't see a coherent message out of the Democratic party. If they can do that coherent message, make this "BBB" look as bad as it is, then I think it could be a landslide here. BERMAN: Thank you all very much for your time tonight.
Tomorrow, President Trump heads to Florida for the opening of a controversial immigration detention center in the Everglades, dubbed "Alligator Alcatraz." The facility's opening led the Department of Homeland Security to post this very subtle photo on X with the caption "Coming Soon."
At tomorrow's event with the President will be DHS Secretary Kristi Noem and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. More now from CNN's Randi Kaye.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): We had a plan that we put out and told them, hey, we can execute this.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): That plan, to build an immigrant detention facility deep in the swamplands of the Florida, Everglades and call it "Alligator Alcatraz."
It was the brainchild of the state's attorney general, who says Florida has been at the forefront of deportations. He's quick to tout the unique security system surrounding the facility given the Everglades are known for alligators and pythons.
JAMES UTHMEIER, FLORIDA ATTORNEY GENERAL: We need additional detention space and this location is ideal because of its surrounding area. It's a low cost, already developed 30 square mile area surrounded by the Everglades. So, "Alligator Alcatraz" has a nice ring to it.
KAYE (voice over): The facility is in both Miami-Dade and Collier County, and is on the same footprint as an old airport that has been used for military training. It is expected to house at least 5,000 detainees. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis calls it one-stop shopping, complete with a nearly 11,000 foot airstrip.
[20:30:29]
GOV. RON DESANTIS, (R) FLORIDA: There needs to be more ability to intake process and then deport. So this answers that. We've got a massive runway right behind us where any of the federal assets, if they want to fly these people back --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
DESANTIS: -- to their own country, they can do it one-stop shop.
KAYE (voice-over): DeSantis gave a tour of the facility to Fox. He too was quick to tout the location's natural barriers and built-in security.
DESANTIS: This is as secure as it gets. I mean, if a criminal alien were to escape from here somehow, and I don't think they will. You've got nowhere to go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
DESANTIS: I mean, what are you going to do, trudge through the swamp and dodge alligators on the way back to 50, 60 miles just to get to civilization? Not going to happen.
KAYE (voice-over): With over 50,000 immigrants already detained in this country, Governor DeSantis says the Department of Homeland Security has told him what they need is more detention space. DeSantis and President Donald Trump seem to have found some common ground on immigration, but it wasn't that long ago they were at odds vying for the White House.
DESANTIS: The state of Florida is all in on President Trump's mission.
KAYE (voice-over): Not everyone is happy about that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You got blown (ph) on your head, buddy.
KAYE (voice-over): Over the weekend, protesters, including environmentalists and immigration rights activists, came out blasting Alligator Alcatraz and those behind it.
ROBIN HASEN, PROTESTER: The Everglades in itself is just a very sacred area, and the habitat here needs to be preserved and taken care of.
GIANCARLO CASTELLANOS, PROTESTER: They're using sacred land for such a sinister and vile goal, end goal, which is not OK.
KAYE (voice-over): Florida's governor helped to fast-track this project, using an executive order and citing what he sees as an illegal immigration crisis. It will cost about $450 million a year to run it, but FEMA is expected to reimburse the state of Florida for that.
Randi Kay, CNN, West Palm Beach, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BERMAN: All right, coming up, we have breaking news in the case against the man accused of fatally stabbing four University of Idaho students back in 2022. And later, jury deliberations begin in the federal sex trafficking trial of Sean Combs. What we can glean from the notes that the jurors are sending to the judge.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:37:25]
BERMAN: All right, we have more breaking news tonight. Bryan Kohberger charged in the killings of four University of Idaho students in 2022 has agreed to a plea deal to avoid the death penalty, his trial had been set for August. Kohberger, a former PhD student of criminology at the University of Washington was charged with stabbing and killing the four at an off-campus house in Moscow, Idaho. After a weeks long manhunt, he was arrested at his parents' house in Pennsylvania. Investigators initially homed in on him using DNA found near one of the victims. Joining us now, CNN Legal Analyst, Elie Honig.
Counselor, how surprised are you by the news of this deal?
ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, John, it does happen sometimes that prosecutors will charge a death eligible offense, like in this case, and then take a plea to a life sentence, and here's why you might do that from a prosecutor's perspective, it's really all about managing risk. No matter how strong your evidence may be, anytime you go to trial, there's always some risk. It's just built into the enterprise itself.
But here's another thing to think about when we're talking about risk management, there's a chance here prosecutors could try this case, get a conviction and still not get the death penalty because in a death case like this, there's actually a two part trial. First you try guilt or non-guilt. If you get a conviction, then you go to the next phase and you need the jury unanimously to recommend death. So if you get a conviction and then you go onto the penalty phase and the jury comes back, 11 jurors for death, one for life, that's a life sentence.
So typically in a situation like this, as a prosecutor, you're thinking if you can lock in the conviction and the life sentence and you want to mitigate risk, that's why you do it.
BERMAN: So risk mitigation doesn't necessarily mean anything about how they felt of the strength of their case?
HONIG: Yes, I think that's exactly right because first of all, juries are inherently unpredictable. It's just 12 human beings, you don't know what they're going to do. But even if you were dead confident that you would get a conviction, you still have to think about that penalty phase. And you still have to get all 12 unanimously to vote for death. So again, you're taking both of those off the table.
You're ensuring that this person will never walk free again. I'm not defending the decision to be clear.
BERMAN: No.
HONIG: But I'm telling you why a prosecutor might make this decision.
BERMAN: No. You're giving us insight as the why prosecutors do make this decision. And what makes it so difficult is the families of the victims and the family of one of the victims in this case said on social media, they're furious at the state of Idaho.
HONIG: Yes.
BERMAN: And that the state failed them by making this deal. So how much do the wishes of the victims' families factor into something like this?
HONIG: It's a brutal situation. You have to feel for the victims' families here. So --
BERMAN: Yes. HONIG: -- Idaho does have a victim's rights statute as virtually every state does now, and that -- those are relatively recent creations. And they say that victims' families do have the right to be informed of what's going on, to be notified of court hearings, to consult with the prosecutors, to speak at sentencing. However, none of those laws, including Idaho's, none of those laws give the victims the right to override the prosecutor's judgment.
[20:40:21]
And so you do sometimes ultimately end up in the really unfortunate scenario where a prosecutor makes a decision, and the victims' families don't always agree. They're entitled to have themselves heard. They will speak at the sentencing. I'm sure the victims' families will speak quite strongly about the defendant. Maybe they'll even criticize the prosecution too, but that's their right.
BERMAN: All of this is so difficult for those victims' families. Elie Honig, thank you so much.
HONIG: Thank you.
BERMAN: Up next, jury drama on day one of deliberation of the Sean Combs trial. Plus, new details about a 20-year-old gunman who lured Idaho firefighters into a deadly trap.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:45:37]
BERMAN: OK. No verdict after day one of jury deliberations in the Sean Combs federal racketeering and sex trafficking trial. But the day, really not without entry at all, jurors sent several notes to the judge, including one that raised concerns about what's going on inside the jury room. With us now, CNN Anchor and Chief Legal Analyst, Laura Coates, who was in court today, and criminal defense attorney Arthur Aidala.
And Laura, let me just start with you, talk to me about these notes that were sent to the judge.
LAURA COATES, CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, one was sent about an hour into deliberations. Never really a good sign after seven weeks of trial and giving a chance to try to persuade the jury. The first one was about another juror, number 25, possibly not being able to follow the directions of the judge. It'd been over two and a half hours of jury instructions today, including things like, don't hold it against Sean Combs he didn't testify or somebody who has a pseudonym as a witness or only here and consider was actually in the courtroom today. We don't know what were they were not following, but the fact that this came up so early made everyone have a little bit of pause.
Would this be a hurdle for unanimity?
BERMAN: Yes. I mean, so, so what was the atmosphere in like? COATES: Well, first of all, they were all huddled around Sean Combs at different points in time. They were looking around trying to figure what this might mean. Everyone wants to try to say, what would this mean? If you're --
ARTHUR AIDALA, NEW YORK CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, you want to have a party when you're the defense --
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: Well, I'm holding -- I'm waiting, I'm waiting for this.
AIDALA: Com on.
BERMAN: Waiting for it. All right, Arthur.
AIDALA: Go ahead, Arthur.
BERMAN: You use it.
AIDALA: Well, I mean, look, when -- the odds are so stacked against any criminal defendant in federal court, so any opportunity that could be a mistrial, there could be something that just runs everything crazy and you have to do it over again. Like hypothetically, if there was a mistrial declared, the first thing they would do is ask for bail for Sean Combs and let him get out and all that. So you're like, OK, how do we use this to scatter everything up? I don't know. Did they move for a mistrial today?
COATES: They had moved before, previously. The only issue is one hour in, they have the option for an alternate.
AIDALA: OK.
COATES: So having to restart a deliberation, it's different maybe on day two, day three, day four, it might have been easier to make that transition. And they were all thinking about that possibility. But you're right, if you're the defense, you want anything to hang your hat on. If you're the prosecution though, it could very well -- it could mean they're saying, I've made my mind up, I'm not going to go through every single charge element and victim. I've already decided. And a juror cannot all of a sudden pull and say --
AIDALA: No, right.
COATES: -- hands up, who wants to vote guilty and not.
AIDALA: But also in federal court, unlike in this, typically the state courts, the judge has the power. If one of the jurors is deemed like inoperable, so to speak --
COATES: Right.
BERMAN: Yes.
AIDALA: -- they can -- the judge can allow 11 jurors to deliberate. The judge has why discretion to do that. That is not typical, but in federal court it is typical. So you could have that person getting thrown out and having 11 people (inaudible).
BERMAN: Just hold off one second --
COATES: Lot (ph) was an appeal.
BERMAN: -- so, what did the judge, just so people know, what did the judge then say to the jurors?
COATES: Go back and deliberate. It was kind of like a parent telling a child --
AIDALA: Right.
COATES: -- thank you kids for not being able to agree, go back and figure it out. And lo and behold, it was not another note from this particular -- this very issue, but appellate rights are always in the minds of defense and prosecutors. Prosecutors can't really appeal, right? But the defense could say, hold on, I've already had one juror struck. We talked about it on racial grounds, whether you believe that or not.
Now you're telling me there might be a reason somebody can't follow? Why? What does that mean? Give me more.
BERMAN: Well, what do you -- when you're a lawyer sitting there, Arthur, in that moment? You said your first thought might be to a mistrial, the way to get out of it there, but what do you think this juror couldn't follow? What instructions couldn't that juror follow?
AIDALA: Well, here's the thing, the -- look --
BERMAN: You never know, and a jury (inaudible).
AIDALA: Let's be transparent here, two weeks ago I went exact -- I went through the exact same thing in the Harvey Weinstein case, right?
BERMAN: Yes.
AIDALA: So two -- day two, one of the jurors comes out and says, what's going on in there is unfair. I'm not comfortable with it. And it eventually led to a mistrial on one of the counts.
The judge is supposed to bring out the juror and in a very limited way, ask them what's going on. Now, the judge in this case didn't do that. He just kind of, as Laura said, was kind of like the dad of the situation says, go back there and follow the rules.
But hypothetically tomorrow, another note could come out saying, this juror is just not following the rules. The judge is supposed to call them out and say, what's going on? See -- hear what happens, and then make a determination whether he's going to throw that juror out and allow 11 to continue to deliberate or tell them, you listen to my rules, be very stern and see what happens. BERMAN: When you hear not listening to the rules, if it does get in front of this judge, I mean, what would be the determining factor here?
[20:50:01]
COATES: Well, remember the jurors have a verdict form in front of them. The question is not simply on the RICO charge, not guilty or guilty. They have to also go through the predicate acts. It's actually on the verdict form. It goes through, if you find this person guilty of RICO, do have -- they found that the government has proven or not proven kidnapping or bribery or arson or drug distribution? I mean, it goes down the line.
AIDALA: Sex traffic, right?
COATES: And then sex trafficking are the last two for Cassie and also Jane. And so, their questions are layered. And so not falling directions could be, I've decided on this issue, but I'm not going to decide on the rest. Or it could very well be, this person for some reason is unable --
BERMAN: Yes.
COATES: -- to follow directions. If that's the case, that'd be surprising given it's been seven weeks and there's been no --
BERMAN: Yes.
COATES: -- prior notice.
BERMAN: So what can the lawyers do now on both sides, Arthur? I know normally, you know, you speak for the defense here, but if you're on the bench either side, what are you doing now?
AIDALA: Well, I am positive. I know for a fact that the defense has been doing some crazy research to see even if there's any written motions they get put in tonight. You want to try to disrupt this any which way you can.
BERMAN: Yes.
AIDALA: But to be honest with you, a lot of the times you're absolutely helpless. You are, you're out -- you -- you're in the hallway, you're pacing, you're going to the cafeteria, you're praying. Because what's going on in the jury room, like after -- I texted with Marc Agnifilo this weekend who gave the summation, I'm like, you know, I hope you got a good night's sleep because there's really not that much lawyering that happens after they're in the deliberation.
BERMAN: It's aim with the prosecution now, Laura.
COATES: Well, yes. So it actually would explain -- I think it's in their hands now.
BERMAN: Yes. COATES: It is written essentially, but it would explain at one moment in time in the courtroom, Sean Combs, his attorney, Agnifilo, asked if his client could bring back some books to the cell block. He said he could. He then flashed the books he wanted. One was, "The Power of Positive Thinking."
BERMAN: Yes.
COATES: The other one, "The Happiest Advantage." Obviously he is hoping anything will be possible.
BERMAN: All right, Laura Coates, great to see you. We will see you a little bit later tonight. Arthur Aidala, always great to see you in person. Thank you very much.
AIDALA: Pleasure is all mine. Thank you.
BERMAN: All right, breaking news on the arson termed ambush of firefighters in Idaho, that's next.
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[20:56:41]
BERMAN: Authorities in Idaho have identified the firefighters who were ambushed and killed yesterday. Kootenai County Fire and Rescue Chief Frank Harwood was married, the father of two and a veteran of the Army National Guard. Coeur d'Alene Battalion Chief John Morrison had been with the fire department for nearly 30 years. New details as well tonight about the young man now dead, who police say turned those men's prime instinct to save lives into the kind of danger none could have prepared for. CNN's Julia Vargas Jones reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN NEWSOURCE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Smoke rising from the forest in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. A call prompting firefighters and then police to rush into action.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Send law enforcement right now, there's an active shooter zone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm pinned down behind Battalion One's rig. It's clear to me that this fire was intentionally to draw us in.
VARGAS JONES (voice-over): The gunman now identified as 20-year-old Wess Roley, according to the sheriff, spoke to first responders, then used a shotgun to kill two firefighters and seriously injure another.
SHERIFF BOB NORRIS, KOOTENAI COUNTY, IDAHO: We do know that he did contact the firefighters when they came on scene and there was a discussion.
VARGAS JONES (voice-over): After the ambush, law enforcement said they exchanged fire for 90 minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've got two unresponsive battalion chiefs, gunshot wounds, multiple gunshot wounds.
VARGAS JONES (voice-over): Bullets, they say, seem to be coming from multiple directions, leading law enforcement to believe they were engaging with more than one gunman. In the end, a single suspect was found dead with a firearm near his body.
NORRIS: It appears that he shot himself. We believe that he engaged deputies from the troop.
FIRE CHIEF TOM GREIF, COEUR D'ALENE FIRE DEPT.: Yesterday was one of the most absolute darkest days.
VARGAS JONES (voice-over): Coeur d'Alene Battalion Chief John Morrison and Kootenai County Fire and Rescue Battalion Chief Frank Harwood died in the attack.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chief Harwood is married, has two children. He is also a former Army National Guard combat engineer. So he's a veteran as well.
GREIF: Battalion Chief John Morrison sustained fatal gunshot wounds yesterday and died in the line of duty. He has served the city of Coeur d'Alene in this community for over 28 and a half years.
VARGAS JONES (voice-over): Another firefighter is still in critical condition. Firefighter Ben Hector got an all hands page to come in after the shootings like many here, he knows the victims well.
VARGAS JONES: These were your guys.
BEN HECTOR, FIREFIGHTER, COEUR D'ALENE, IDAHO: The chief was my chief. We know each other well. My friend in the hospital, he owns a really cool Christmas tree farm. My sons have gone to work for him. We're friends.
VARGAS JONES (voice-over): Today, he is collecting donations with other volunteers for the first responders who are still fighting this fire.
KASSI ALLEN, COEUR D'ALENE RESIDENT: We have seen the heartache of losing an officer in the line of duty. And your hope is that it never happens again. So to have this happen with fire is awful.
HECTOR: It's shocking for sure.
VARGAS JONES: Does it change the way that you see your community or the work that you do?
HECTOR: No, no, that's an outlier. That's not the people here. Doesn't change anything. There's still just work to do. You don't get time off because it was a bad day.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VARGAS JONES (on camera): Such resilience we're seeing here, John, in this community. As we see the firefighters still out here fighting this fire. We just watched as they finished their shift and more will be coming. This fire is still active. Firefighters, despite all of this news, still coming to the scene here to fight those active blazes.
[21:00:13]
We have also some more details that I want to share with you on Roley, one of the perverse details of the stories that he himself wanted to be a firefighter. His grandfather telling CNN that he was still actively pursuing that profession, John.
BERMAN: So much tragedy there in Coeur d'Alene. Julia Vargas Jones, thank you very much.
The news continues. "The Source with Kaitlan Collins" starts now.
