Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Trump On Epstein Controversy: "I Don't Understand Why It's Still Going"; Justice Department Asks Supreme Court To Deny Ghislaine Maxwell's Appeal Of Her Sex-Trafficking Conviction; AG Bondi Says There's No Change To Her Position On Epstein After Trump Suggests She Could Release More Files; Trump: Zelenskyy Should Not Strike Moscow; ICE Orders New Directive That Could Lock Up Millions Of Undocumented Immigrants; Inside A Family's Move To Self-Deport From The U.S.; Opening Statements In Colorado Dentist Murder Trial. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired July 15, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Citation three, Papa, November, go around. Wow. My first go around.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How does it feel?
MUNTEAN (on camera): Fine. Did I mess something up?
MUNTEAN (voice over): Finally, we are fully off script.
MUNTEAN (on camera): Challenger 6585 Juliet Academy Tower, runway two- eight right line up and wait. How'd I do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did really good.
MUNTEAN (on camera): Do you think I could pull this off if I came to the academy?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We'll give you six more weeks and you'll be fantastic.
MUNTEAN (voice over): We kept this demonstration fun though the FAA insists, this is serious work in hopes of ending its major staffing problem.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and I don't want to, you know, persuade people to think that's next year. We still have our work cut in front of us, but we are absolutely moving in the right direction.
MUNTEAN (voice over): Pete Muntean, CNN, Oklahoma City.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Pete Muntean is a very accomplished pilot. Thanks for joining us. AC360 starts now.
[20:00:53]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, the President is trying to put a lid on the Jeffrey Epstein story. Why does he keep talking about what's in the pot as even the Top House Republican calls for more transparency on the case.
Also tonight, the President defends his decision to give Russia more than a month and a half to come to terms on Ukraine, even as Moscow continues their massive attacks.
And later, opening statements in early testimony in the murder trial of the former dentist accused of poisoning his wife.
Good evening, thanks for joining us. We begin tonight with parts of the Trump administration trying and failing it seems to climb out of their self-made mess over the Jeffrey Epstein case. Failing because even though the President has said to want to make it go away, he keeps getting asked about it and he keeps talking about it. It's also clear his far right supporters are not moving on. Not even the one who explicitly said that he was just yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE KIRK, FOUNDER, TURNING POINT USA: Honestly, I'm done talking about Epstein for the time being. I'm going to trust my friends in the administration. I'm going to trust my friends in the government to do what needs to be done to solve it, ball's in their hands.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That was prominent conservative podcaster and author Charlie Kirk just yesterday saying he is done talking about Epstein. He trusts the administration, yesterday. Today, he's back to talking about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIRK: I want to make an addendum to what was said yesterday is -- we're going to keep on talking about it. When I said, for the time being, I was talking yesterday, I was telling the audience, guys, I've got a whole deck of stories. I got to cover here.
For the record, if you are transcribing, we're not moving on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Nor is the President. Kaitlan Collins reported last night, several people familiar with his thinking told CNN that the President was privately urging his team to let the story die. Instead, he keeps talking about it, including just a few minutes ago, returning from a visit to Pittsburgh.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't understand why the Jeffrey Epstein case would be of interest to anybody. It's pretty boring stuff. It is sordid, but it's boring. And I don't understand why it keeps going.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That soundbite is one of the reasons why. So are the ones from earlier today. Here he is defending Attorney General Bondi's decision, which she announced eight days ago to put a lid on further disclosures in the case. His remarks were in response to a question about something former RNC Co-chair Lara Trump said previously about the need for transparency.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Mr. President, your daughter-in-law said that there should be transparency in the Epstein case. Do you agree with her, Sir?
TRUMP: The Attorney General has handled that very well. She is-- she has really done a very good job. And I think that when you look at it, you'll understand that. I would like to see that also. But I think the Attorney General, the credibility is very important. And you want credible evidence for something like that. And I think the Attorney General has handled it very well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now, that's interesting because the Attorney General was one of the people who appeared on T.V. seeming to hype what was going to be released, and now she's trying to move on. Refusing repeatedly to answer questions today about Epstein, the decision not to release more information or questions about her relationship with FBI Director Kash Patel and Deputy Director Dan Bongino. Here she was today at a press conference. She wanted to focus on fentanyl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Nothing about Epstein. I'm not going to talk about Epstein. I'm going to be here for as long as the President wants me here. And I believe he's made that crystal clear.
No, I'm not going to talk about personnel matters. No, I'm not going to discuss personnel matters. I think we all are committed to working together now to make America safe again.
Only on topic, guys. Our memo speaks for itself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So, she seems to be doing what the President reportedly wants, which is moving on, even if he himself is not. In fact, he's actually going beyond just answering questions. He's now trying to spin the story in a way that blames Democrats. Here's what he said when asked if the Attorney General told him whether he is named in the Epstein files.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: No, no, she's given us just a very quick briefing and in terms of the credibility of the different things that they've seen, and I would say that, you know, these files were made up by Comey. They were made up by Obama. They were made up by the Biden, you know, and we went through years of that with the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax, with all of the different things that we had to go through. We've gone through years of it.
[20:05:13]
COOPER: Well, keeping them honest, it's not exactly outlandish to wonder about the President's connections with Epstein, given that they've crossed paths and shared moments many times over the years, both in New York and Mar-a-Lago circles, as he himself told "New York" Magazine in 2002, "I've known Jeff for 15 years, terrific guy." He went on to say, "He's a lot of fun to be with. It's even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side."
Now, in addition, a good deal of the Epstein case's pivotal moments, including Epstein's death and jail in 2019, happened during the first Trump administration. So, even if everything to do with the President, both in office and before, are all completely innocent and above board, as they very well may be, the connections themselves are still there. And if they're mentioned in the Epstein files, it's likely not because James Comey or President Obama or Biden had it in for him.
In any event, if the President wanted to make this go away, he's not really doing what it takes. If he even could because having hyped the story for months and years, many in the administration are now discovering how well the hype worked. Here's Attorney General Bondi, shortly before the first disappointing batch of Epstein material was released.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONDI: The FBI, they're reviewing, there are tens of thousands of videos of Epstein with children or child porn, and there are hundreds of victims, and no one victim will ever get released. It's just the volume, and that's what they're going through right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That was the Attorney General in May, and Joe Rogan now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE ROGAN, PODCAST HOST, "THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE": They've got videotape and also they don't, you know, you got the director of the FBI on this show saying there's no tape. There was -- nothing you're looking for is on those tapes. Like, what? She said something about that there was like thousands of hours of tapes of people doing horrible crimes.
KASH PATEL, DIRECTOR OF THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: Yes, there is.
ROGAN: Kash Patel said, there's nothing you're looking for. Oh, okay, okay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So the hype worked and now the disappointment is real. And on Capitol Hill, a credibility gap has opened up on both sides of the aisle because even though only one Republican voted with house Democrats on a failed amendment to force a vote on releasing the Epstein files, some are saying things like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX): I do think there needs to be more transparency. I do think that all needs to move forward, and I think -- I think the administration needs to address that.
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But you don't believe what the Justice Department is saying?
REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): I don't know. No, I don't, I don't. I think I don't trust them.
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): They should put everything out there and let the people decide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Joining me now with more of the fallout around the Epstein files, CNN chief White House correspondent and anchor of "The Source," Kaitlan Collins.
So we mentioned your reporting that President Trump had privately urged his team to let the Epstein story die. He certainly gets asked about it. He keeps talking about it. Where does where does this go from here?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: I mean, it's certainly not dying down like the White House had hoped. Do they actually thought, Anderson, that last week when we were in that cabinet meeting and the President kind of exploded when he was asked by a reporter initially about the anger that was building within MAGA about this. And, and he had this kind of confused answer asked why people were still talking about that, given what was happening.
But in the days since then, we have not seen his supporters fall in line with that reaction and get behind what he is saying. Instead, they have only gotten angrier and had more questions for this administration and more criticism over the top people at the FBI and DOJ about this and about their handling of this.
And of course, a lot of that has to do with the past comments that you heard from Kash Patel, Dan Bongino even before they took these jobs. But also the attorney general, when she was speaking just there, that was in front of the West Wing of the White House. She had already been inside the Department of Justice. It gave it more of a veneer of credibility when she was talking about the Epstein files in that moment.
And so, we are only seeing this continue to build, despite what White House officials had hoped would be happening, that they would tamp down and that they would get fewer questions on this. But I do think right now, you know, from my sense and speaking to people at the White House yesterday and today is they are realizing that this isn't going away immediately. They do believe ultimately it will and they think, you know, with the fact that Dan Bongino came back to work yesterday and tried to quiet that down, they were hoping that that would quiet all of this down. But right now, that does not appear to be the case.
And you heard the President there, he was blaming the media for talking about this. It's certainly not the media, though, that has caused this. It is his own supporters that are very angry about this and say essentially they believe they were promised one thing and then got another.
COOPER: And is Dan Bongino, I mean, he's back at work. He's -- is he staying there? I mean, it seems incredible that he -- whatever happened between him and the Attorney General, that seems kind of unprecedented that he would continue on.
COLLINS: Yes and I asked the President about that today because I wanted to know where does he stand on Dan Bongino. And the question I asked, Anderson, was -- does he have confidence in his deputy FBI director? And this is what he said today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Do you have confidence in Dan Bongino?
TRUMP: I like Dan Bongino, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:10:06]
COLLINS: That wasn't exactly an answer to the question about confidence in him, but he said he does like him. He certainly has been more vocal in his support for the Attorney General, Pam Bondi here.
COOPER: Kaitlan, thanks very much. We'll see you at the top of the hour for "The Source."
Joining me now is CNN political analyst, "New York Times" White House correspondent Maggie Haberman.
Maggie, what are you hearing about how this saga is playing out in the White House and how the President is viewing it all privately.
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Very similar to what Kaitlan is hearing, Anderson. People at the White House, you know, did not expect this to take on the life that it has over the last several days. Excuse me.
And this is the President, as you know, who has ridden out along with his aides, many controversies. You know, this was expected to be one of them. They still expect it will be one of them, but it's not going away. And as you have noted for now, and as you and Kaitlan both noted, it's not going away because of things that the President is saying, but also because of the words of his own government. I mean, this is his FBI director, his deputy FBI director, his Attorney General, they are fighting with each other over what the actual truth is. You know, this scene with Dan Bongino last week, it's quelled for now, but it's not clear how you can, you know, have that kind of a controversy and last very long.
So, we'll see where this goes. But, you know, it's very rare, Anderson, that there's been a conspiracy theory that President Trump has not fanned the flames of in the past and this is the one he doesn't want to.
COOPER: And Speaker Johnson said that the administration should put everything out there related to the Epstein files. President Trump himself said that Bondi should release, "whatever she thinks is credible." Are there any indications the Justice Department is actually going to release more information?
HABERMAN: There is a lot of pressure on the Justice Department to try to do something more. There's been, as I'm sure you're aware, discussion of a special counsel, which is very complicated for a lot of reasons, and a bunch of people inside the administration do not want that. But, you know, I think they are probably -- what they're discussing right now. Again, I don't want to predict because this whole thing has been very messy. There is a discussion about releasing some sort of additional material. We will see what that looks like.
The problem they've created for themselves, Anderson, is whatever partial information they release, it will never be seen as enough. It will never be believed and I think this has been a real lesson to top officials in this government that, you know, if you if you say something over and over again, your own followers are not necessarily going to stick with you if you say something different later.
COOPER: Well, particularly when those top officials in the government are the ones who previously were saying these things were leading the charge on this. I mean, that's what's so remarkable to me. And then, there's also the other layer of, I mean, I don't know, Dan Bongino's motivation at all, but I assume he doesn't think he's going to be working the FBI for the rest of his life and if he wants to get back into podcasting, it would seem this is the opportunity for him to jump back into it now, while he still has a reputation in the conspiracy world intact, or I don't know if he does anymore have it intact.
HABERMAN: I suspect that he does. But I mean, at least to some degree. But, you know, I think that you hit on two separate issues. One is all of these folks, you know, almost all of these folks, their credibility and their profiles come from proximity to President Trump and folks around President Trump are very aware of that. And so, you saw Bongino, you know, stay, at least for now, within the government.
Pam Bondi had a career prior to President Trump becoming President, but she is mistrusted by elements of the MAGA base. And so, that is part of the sub issue you're seeing here as well. And where this leads and how much of it, you know, President Trump has to keep trying to tamp down remains to be seen. But, you know, barring some other, you know, major news story, he is going to get asked about this for a while.
The irony here too, Anderson, just to add to this, I keep hearing from Democrats, some of whom want to see additional files released, others who can't believe that Democrats are chasing this story, you know, down the road, while Republicans are fighting amongst themselves and this bill that makes massive cuts to Medicaid is in play for Republicans as something that Democrats we're going to focus on and instead, now they're talking about this conspiracy theory.
COOPER: Maggie Haberman, thanks very much. My next guest is award winning investigative reporter for "The Miami Herald," who's been investigating the Jeffrey Epstein saga from the beginning. Her reporting was so vital in exposing the extent of Epstein's sex trafficking ring. "The New York Times" summed it up this way -- the Jeffrey Epstein case was cold until "Miami Herald" reporter got accusers to talk.
She's also the author of "Perversion of Justice: The Jeffrey Epstein Story." Julie K. Brown joins me now. Julie, thanks so much for being back with us. First of all, what is your reaction to the President's comments tonight about the Epstein story, that it's sordid, but boring. What do you make of what has happened now?
JULIE K. BROWN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "MIAMI HERALD": It's really unfortunate that he's using those words. I mean, imagine being a victim here who, at the age of 14, was brought into this sex trafficking operation and was sexually abused, and you're hearing something like that.
This is a crime, this is a really heinous crime that happened to hundreds of girls. And this is something that our elected leaders should consider very serious and there is still not a resolution to this. They still don't feel that that justice has been served here.
And so, I think what they are looking for is for their elected leaders to say, at the very least, let's take another look at this to make sure that we handled this properly.
[20:15:45]
COOPER: There have been phony flight lists published for years. There's -- I don't know where the idea of a client list came from. Do you?
And I guess the larger question is, what other information, in your understanding, could be released or is out there that, you know, if they wanted full disclosure, it could be out there?
BROWN: Well, first of all, there's tons of files that are out there in the FBI's vault. Anybody in the public can Google the vault, the FBI vault and put Jeffrey Epstein's name in, and there will be hundreds and hundreds of pages of files that you can click on and you can look at. But if you look at them, they are heavily, heavily redacted or they're in some coding that you can't -- that doesn't make any sense. And if this -- the few that are just redacted, you could see that they're unnecessarily redacted. There are things in there, for example, they're redacting the name of Jeffrey Epstein in these files. At this point, there's no need to do something like that.
So, at the very least, there's hundreds of FBI files that are already in the vault that should be released. But there's tons of other material that we don't know about. For example, when they reopened the case in 2019 after I first started my investigation, there were probably at least a hundred, if not 200 women that came forward and those women were all interviewed as part of a settlement process with Epstein's estate. And they weren't bound by any kind of confidentiality.
So, one would think that the FBI, the Justice Department would examine what some of the new information was that was coming as a result of this settlement process.
COOPER: And the idea of a client list, where did that originate?
BROWN: I think it came from this phone directory, really, that was really gathered by his accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell. She kept this phone directory for him, sort of like an old fashioned Rolodex that she kept updating on the computer. And there were, yes -- Trump is in there, a lot of phone numbers, including to his phone, in his vehicle and his all his important people were on there, as well as other, you know, celebrities and people of that sort.
But Epstein was sort of a social climber, and I think he used Ghislaine to kind of boost his reputation with very important people. And part of that was him just meeting somebody and saying, I want to put you on my Rolodex kind of thing. So, there's no evidence that the people that were on that Rolodex, which was really just a phone directory, were involved in his sex trafficking, perhaps some of them were, but we don't know that. And then somehow that morphed into the fact that they, you know, the conspiracy theorists thought that there was some kind of a client list.
I've always said, I don't believe there is one because Epstein was not the kind of person that would keep something like that. He didn't have to do that when he sent girls to be with these important people that he was doing business with, and make no mistake about this, this was a business transaction for him. This wasn't a sexual transaction. He used these women as pawns to get into the world of some of these people that he wanted to do business with. So, somehow this got morphed into the fact that he had some kind of a client list.
He didn't need to keep a client list. These men knew he was sending these women to them and they knew that Epstein knew. So, it's just -- it wasn't something that had to be written down.
COOPER: I do want to play something that that again, that Attorney General Bondi said recently about the case, which was before the announcement that the DOJ would not be releasing any more information.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONDI: The FBI, they're reviewing. There are tens of thousands of videos of Epstein with children or child porn, and there are hundreds of victims, and no one victim will ever get released. It's just the volume and that's what they're going through right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I mean, that's obviously sickening to hear. Do you know anything about these videos? Bondi obviously raises this question about, you know, who these children are? Was this prosecuted? I mean, are people aware of this?
[20:20:08]
BROWN: Yes, we knew when they did the search of his home in 2019 that they found photographs and videos. We don't know exactly what's contained on that, but I was told by sources that a lot of the material isn't really material, that you're going to be able to look at and say, this is so and so -- this is so and so victim.
Remember, he did this over a span of two decades. So, these women don't look anything like the children they were before. So it's really hard for them to pinpoint who these victims were. But what I will say is Epstein earned a lot of money in his lifetime. He was extremely wealthy, and I really think that it should be asked whether the Justice Department ever really investigated his wealth and who was giving him money, as they say, follow the money. And, I think that there were other avenues to pursue in this case, if they weren't already pursued, that they could have used to try to find out who was really behind Epstein's operation.
He also had two lawyers that worked for him for a very long time, who did all his finances and made all his arrangements, including arranging for visas for girls that he brought overseas for his so- called modeling agency. He bragged at one point that he was trying to form a modeling agency similar to what Trump had. So, he was bringing women in from other countries, recruiting them, and promising to make them very famous models. So, there was a sort of a business operation that he had where he did this, and he had people working for him.
So, you know, these are valid questions to ask. Did the FBI look into all this?
COOPER: Right, Julie K. Brown, I really appreciate your expertise on this. Thank you so much.
Coming up next, more on the woman at the center of the story, Ghislaine Maxwell, who Julie just mentioned her relationship with Epstein and more on her role in his crimes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:26:47]
COOPER: With the President still talking about the Jeffrey Epstein case, the Justice Department is busy trying to keep his accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell from successfully appealing her conviction on sex offenses involving minors.
In a brief filed with the Supreme Court yesterday, the DOJ argued that her claim that Epstein's 2007 plea deal should have also covered her is both incorrect and unlikely to succeed in, "any appeals court."
For more on her actual role up to this point, here's CNN's Randi Kaye.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AUDREY STRAUSS, FORMER ACTING UNITED STATES ATTORNEY FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: Maxwell was among Epstein's closest associates and helped him exploit girls who were as young as 14-years-old.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Ghislaine Maxwell, a friend and former lover of Jeffrey Epstein's. She dated the accused sex trafficker in the 1990's, and the two remained close. Federal investigators accused Maxwell of serving as Epstein's madam, recruiting young girls for Epstein to abuse, and taking part in the abuse herself.
STRAUSS: She pretended to be a woman they could trust. All the while, she was setting them up to be sexually abused by Epstein and in some cases by Maxwell herself.
KAYE (voice over): Long before that, Maxwell had a privileged life in the English countryside where she grew up. She's the daughter of Czech born newspaper tycoon, Robert Maxwell, who died in 1991 after falling off his luxury yacht near the Canary Islands. Multiple people say Maxwell introduced Epstein to affluent social circles. Maxwell's own exclusive circle included then future President Donald Trump seen together here in this photo from 2000. Alongside him, Melania, who he was dating at the time, and Jeffrey Epstein.
That's Maxwell in the background of this photograph of prince Andrew with Virginia Roberts, who later became Virginia Giuffre. She had alleged she was trafficked by Epstein with the help of Maxwell and forced to have sex with Prince Andrew when she was 17. The Prince emphatically denied all of it and settled Giuffre's lawsuit against him for an undisclosed amount. Giuffre died earlier this year by suicide.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Breaking news just into CNN, longtime Jeffrey Epstein confidante and friend, Ghislaine Maxwell has been arrested.
KAYE (voice over): In July of 2020, the year after Epstein took his life in jail, Maxwell was arrested in New Hampshire. She was charged with six federal counts, including one count of sex trafficking children.
She pleaded not guilty, yet at her 2021 trial, four women alleged that Epstein sexually abused them and that Maxwell not only helped facilitate, but also participated in some of the abuse between 1994 and 2004. The women were under 18 at the time.
Maxwell was found guilty of five of the six charges against her, including the most serious charge of sex trafficking a girl named Carolyn, when she said she was just 14-years-old. Carolyn had told the court she participated in sexualized massages with Epstein and recruited other young girls for him.
Carolyn recalled how Maxwell groped her naked body, telling her she had a great body for Epstein and his friends.
In court, the defense tried to portray Maxwell as a scapegoat.
BOBBI STERNHELM, GHISLAINE MAXWELL TRIAL ATTORNEY: Clever and cunning to the end, Jeffrey Epstein left Ghislaine Maxwell holding the whole bag.
KAYE (voice over): Maxwell was sentenced to 20 years in federal prison, but appealed her sex trafficking conviction.
KAYE (on camera): For now, Maxwell will continue serving time here in Florida. She's behind bars at FCI Tallahassee, a low security federal correctional institution with a detention center. Her scheduled release date July 17th, 2037.
Randi Kaye, CNN, Palm Beach County, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[20:30:30]
COOPER: For more on all of this -- how all this is being viewed inside the Department of Justice and the FBI, I'm joined by CNN Senior Law Enforcement Analyst and Former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe. What do you make of the Justice Department's argument to the Supreme Court for why they shouldn't take up Maxwell's appeal? Because at the core of Maxwell's petition, she's arguing that the government's non- prosecution agreement with Epstein as part of his 2007 plea deal also applies to her.
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Sure, Anderson. So the government's position is that it relies on a bit of a technicality here. The actual language from the non-prosecution agreement signed in 2008 by Jeffrey Epstein says, basically says, if Epstein successfully fulfills all the terms and conditions of the agreement, the United States, now note, not specifically, doesn't say just the Southern District of Florida or the entirety of the United States.
Also agrees that it will not institute any criminal charges against any potential co-conspirators of Epstein, including, but not limited to, four of Epstein's assistants. So she is claiming that she comes within the protection of that clause. The Department of Justice saying, no, we had an internal policy at the time that said, if a specific district gives you a non pros (ph) agreement, it applies only in that district, which means the Southern District that came through in 2019 or 2020 indicting Epstein and Maxwell was not bound by this exclusive agreement.
COOPER: What do you -- the situation between Bongino and Pam Bondi, have you ever seen anything like it? And is that tenable?
MCCABE: No, absolutely not tenable. I've never seen anything like this. The idea that a deputy director of the FBI would confront the attorney general in the White House in front of other people and they'd get involved in some sort of a shouting match, making accusations about each other. I can't even imagine that ever happening. And if it did happen, I'm shocked that the attorney general hasn't already removed him from his position. It is -- it's a level of disrespect and disarray among the leadership of those two agencies. That's really just a terrible thing, terrible example for the workforce.
COOPER: It sounds like there's a lot more files that could be released if the government wanted to. Do you think that's likely to happen?
MCCABE: I think it's unlikely to happen. I think there's probably a lot of information in there that they really cannot release because it's protected by grand jury secrecy rules or maybe Privacy Act concerns or maybe it's confidential witness testimony that witnesses requested protection from.
So there are probably a lot of legitimate reasons why some of this information they can't release. Not the least of which is that just releasing the names of people who happen to be in Jeffrey Epstein's phone book without any indication that they were involved in some sort of criminal activity would be pretty defamatory and destructive to those people's reputation.
So there's a lot of legitimate limits on what they can release. And at this point, whatever they put out is never going to satisfy the conspiracy crowd.
COOPER: Andrew McCabe, thanks very much.
Still to come, new airstrikes in Ukraine and the president weighs in on the cities Ukraine should not hit.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:38:24]
COOPER: Breaking news out of Ukraine, massive Russian airstrikes earlier tonight in the eastern city of Kharkiv. We also learned today that in a recent phone call with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy, Mr. Trump asked about Ukraine's ability to strike Moscow and St. Petersburg. Zelenskyy said his forces could if the Ukrainians had the weapons they needed. That does not, however, mean the president wants them to, as he made clear earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Should Zelenskyy target Moscow or deeper into Russia?
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, he shouldn't target Moscow.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: For more on all these, we're joined by Fareed Zakaria, host of CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS." Fareed, as we mentioned, President Trump floated the idea of Ukraine's ability to carry out strikes in Moscow or St. Petersburg with President Zelenskyy on a call as part of an effort to increase pressure on the Kremlin to drive an end to the war, according to a source briefed on the conversation.
Now officials are saying that Trump was asking the question kind of in passing and appeared to have walked the comments back. What message do you think Vladimir Putin takes away from all of these?
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: The message he's always taken, that Donald Trump is fundamentally not on Ukraine's side and is not going to put much pressure on Russia. Because from the start, Anderson, he has been very reluctant to put any pressure on Russia. Russia is, by the way, one of the only countries in the world exempt from any tariffs.
He's not provided Ukraine with much military assistance. He's even paused military and intelligence assistance to Ukraine. And when he occasionally does seem to realize, you know, the slow education of Donald Trump, when he does realize that you need to put more pressure on Putin, he almost always walks it back.
[20:40:00]
COOPER: And he said that his administration is, in his words, not looking to deliver longer-range missiles to Kyiv. He reportedly hasn't ruled out certain offensive weapons into Ukraine, according to sources familiar with the matter. It seems like patriots, though, are the main thing that NATO countries will be buying from the U.S. and go to Ukraine. Where do you think the administration will ultimately land on any kind of offensive weapons?
ZAKARIA: Well, I hope they will end up providing a lot of patriots because Ukraine right now is very vulnerable. Kyiv itself is vulnerable, because Putin has really taken advantage of what he sees as Trump's weakness and Trump's unwillingness to put any pressure to really hammer Ukraine. Then the question becomes are -- is the United States willing to provide more offensive capability?
This is something, to be fair, even the Biden administration was reluctant to do. I think it's a big mistake. If we are in this fight, there is only one option. You want to win. Everything else means you lose.
COOPER: It doesn't appear, though, that Putin has changed his goals in all of these. I mean, is there any -- time is on Vladimir Putin's side, isn't it?
ZAKARIA: Time is on his side. And I would actually argue, Anderson, he's expanded his goals. I think there was a period during the Biden administration when he saw, you know, the $60 billion of aid being provided by the United States, an almost equivalent amount from Europe, the sense that this was going to go on forever.
At that point, you know, you heard murmurs coming out of the Kremlin about a negotiated settlement, about, you know, if they could keep what they have in Ukraine, that would be enough. The terms they now want are essentially a kind of demilitarized Ukraine, or at least a Ukraine with no security guarantees.
And remember, what that means is a Ukraine that is a failed state, a basket case economy over which Russia has influenced. Because think about it, Anderson, who is going to invest in Ukraine if Ukraine doesn't have security guarantees? Because any factory you build, you know, three months from now, the Russians could invade, and that's all gone.
So the security guarantee for Ukraine is key. And President Trump has been very, very wishy-washy on it, you know, preemptively giving Putin a lot of those concessions. So, of course, in the face of all that, Putin's appetite has grown. And that the real danger here is that we are moving towards a situation where, thanks to President Trump's weakness, Ukraine may find itself losing and losing, and then you get to a point of no return.
COOPER: Does Europe -- I mean, President Trump deserves credit for doing what a lot of American presidents -- or getting Europe to do what a lot of American presidents had wanted European countries to do, which was spend more of their, you know, their resources on NATO, spend more on their own defense, and as part of the NATO alliance. Do you see European countries able to increase spending and increase their arming of Ukraine in a way that would be effective for Ukraine? Or can anyone do what the U.S. really could do?
ZAKARIA: Not really, Anderson. I give President Trump a lot of credit for getting the NATO countries, the Europeans, to spend more on defense, reaching higher targets. They're even talking about getting close to 5 percent now. That is all great and essential, and President Trump really does deserve credit.
This is a kind of tough-love situation. But it doesn't really apply in Ukraine. In Ukraine, what the Europeans were already doing was spending more than the United States was. They were not spending it on military aid. They were spending mostly, you know, keeping Ukrainians' pensions alive, salaries alive. Ukraine is running essentially on European money.
What the Americans were doing was providing military aid. So you have to understand, the European money would go to the Ukrainians. They would spend it. The American money came back to American defense contractors, 90 percent of it, you know, because then the Ukrainians would buy American arms. That combination is what we need.
COOPER: Fareed Zakaria, thanks very much.
ZAKARIA: Pleasure.
COOPER: Coming up, the latest legal move by ICE that could potentially lock up millions of undocumented immigrants here, and one family's decision to self-deport despite the wife and children being American citizens.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:49:05] COOPER: The Trump administration just took a major step to potentially lock up millions of undocumented immigrants. In a recent memo, the acting director of ICE told agents that immigrants who arrived in the U.S. illegally were no longer eligible for a bond hearing while they fight their deportations in court.
In other words, those previously allowed to remain out on bond as their case made its way through the immigration system, the process could take years. Now must be taken into custody and remain there until they're deported. Tactics like these are leading some undocumented immigrants to self-deport and sometimes take the American citizens in their families with them.
Here's CNN's Priscilla Alvarez with that story.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
SASHA MENDOZA, U.S. CITIZEN: These are the main pictures from our house that we didn't want to just throw away.
PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sasha Mendoza has the impossible task of packing up her family's life in Pittsburgh into a handful of suitcases.
S. MENDOZA: It's really hard to tell a four-year-old that they can't bring their toys or their stuffed animals. There's just not enough room. We can't put a stuffed animal and then have no pants.
[20:50:06]
I've literally never felt anxiety the way that I have in the last few years here.
ALVAREZ: So you are saying bye to the U.S. for good?
JULIO MENDOZA, UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT: For good, yes. Yes, for good.
ALVAREZ (voice-over): Fearful of President Donald Trump's immigration crackdown, Sasha, her husband, Julio, and their three kids are leaving behind the life they built together.
S. MENDOZA: What are you the most excited for in Mexico?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The pool.
S. MENDOZA: The pool?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the beach.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the beach.
ALVAREZ (voice-over): Julio is an undocumented immigrant from Mexico. Sasha and their three children are all U.S. citizens. They decided to make the move together only moments after Trump took office.
J. MENDOZA: It was an executive order being signed. And that was her call first said, like, what do you think about moving to Mexico? And I said, honestly, at this point, yes, let's do it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to move to Mexico.
S. MENDOZA: We're going to move to Mexico. Not today.
ALVAREZ (voice-over): And with that, the family began to wind down their lives, sifting through keepsakes and moving out of their home.
S. MENDOZA: Say bye to the house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bye house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bye house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Miss you.
ALVAREZ: When you were dating, did your status as being undocumented come up at all?
S. MENDOZA: On our first date, we kind of, like, were mentioning it without mentioning it. And at one point, he ordered a drink and he asked for extra ice. And they said, no, we don't do ice here. And he was like, hmm.
J. MENDOZA: And that was like (INAUDIBLE).
S. MENDOZA: And that was like the only thing we needed to say.
J. MENDOZA: So, by the way --
ALVAREZ (voice-over): Julio crossed the U.S. southern border when he was 11 years old and he's lived in Pittsburgh ever since.
S. MENDOZA: One of his first concerns when we talked about moving is like, how am I going to watch the Steeler games?
ALVAREZ: You're a Pittsburgh native, for all intents and purposes.
S. MENDOZA: Oh, my God, yes.
J. MENDOZA: Yes.
ALVAREZ: What made Trump, a second term, more nerve-wracking for you that -- to come to a decision that you had to leave the country?
J. MENDOZA: There are no limits. There are no limits on being a target. The only main concern is like, he looks brown, he looks different. He don't speak English. He's the one. It doesn't matter.
COOPER: That's where things stand tonight in the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia --
ALVAREZ (voice-over): They were confronted with their worst nightmare when Kilmar Abrego Garcia was mistakenly deported to a notorious megaprison in El Salvador.
S. MENDOZA: I can see myself in that and I don't want us to wait until we're in the same situation.
ALVAREZ: There are people who will say, you came to the U.S. illegally. Why didn't you do it the right way? What do you say to people?
J. MENDOZA: If you were to be put in my situation at my age, to tell them to do it the right way, the whole process pretty much takes about 15 to 20 years. By that time, I don't think my kids or anyone's kids who are starving or are in a dangerous situation can wait 15-20 years for you to come here and start working.
S. MENDOZA: What did we say that we could get when we get there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OPS5 (ph).
S. MENDOZA: No, we did not say that.
ALVAREZ: How did you approach the conversation with your kids?
S. MENDOZA: They know the realistic part of it, which is that it will be very difficult for them to adapt to --
J. MENDOZA: Right.
S. MENDOZA: -- especially -- mostly language wise. That's like our biggest thing. They're not anywhere near fluent and they are going to be going into a school that is Spanish speaking.
Who's that? That's you.
ALVAREZ (voice-over): For Sasha, leaving the U.S. also means saying goodbye to the places she's called home.
ALVAREZ: You grew up in this house. What is it like for you to leave this house and what it represents to you?
S. MENDOZA: It is definitely hard because, yes, there's a lot of good memories. This has always been like the kind of comeback place. As far as we know, we won't be able to do that. We've kind of all decided that today is most likely the last time that we'll all be like in the same place at the same time.
ALVAREZ (voice-over): Hours of research behind them, the Mendoza family spent their final days in Pittsburgh, saying goodbye to family and friends.
J. MENDOZA: Stay safe, stay safe.
ALVAREZ (voice-over): It's a decision not taken lightly. But for Julio, no other choice.
J. MENDOZA: Rolling the dice will be staying here. That will be rolling the dice. Playing with my life, playing with my kids' life, playing with my wife's life. That would be a gamble. Yes, I would say it's taking a gamble. I'm taking a certain win on this one for sure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ALVAREZ (on-camera): Now, Anderson, Sasha and Julio are now settling in in Mexico, but they join a newly emerging community of people who are voluntarily departing the United States. It's called self- deportations, and it's part of the Trump administration's strategy. Senior Trump officials have touted it often, and they've taken to the airwaves with multi-million-dollar ad campaigns and offering financial incentives, like one-way tickets to the country where they have legal status and $1,000 exit bonus once they arrive.
But for Sasha and Julio, they didn't need that. It was the uncertainty of what was to come with the immigration crackdown that was enough to get them to leave. But also, Anderson, what we learned over the course of this reporting is it's not just undocumented immigrants making these decisions, but also --
COOPER: Yes.
ALVAREZ (on-camera): -- the U.S. citizens that they are married with or have children.
COOPER: Yes. Priscilla Alvarez, thanks so much. I appreciate it.
Still to come in Colorado, the dentist accused of killing his wife with cyanide and arsenic goes on trial. Why prosecutor say he did it, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:59:49]
COOPER: And just outside Denver, opening statements to the trial of James Craig. He's the former dentist accused of fatally poisoning his wife. Angela Craig died in 2023, and prosecutors say her husband's motives were growing financial troubles and his affair with another woman. The defense raised questions about the evidence in Ms. Craig's mental state.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
RYAN BRACKLEY, ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: He went into that room to murder her. To deliberately and intentionally end her life with a fatal dose of cyanide.
ASHLEY WHITHAM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They never find any arsenic or cyanide. Angela was a very broken person.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: She also told the jury, you may not like him, you may not think he's a good husband, but that's not what you're here to decide.
That's it for us. The news continues. The Source of Kaitlan Collins starts now. See you tomorrow.
