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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Accuser's Family Demanding Answers; Trump: I didn't Know Why Epstein Took Women from Mar-a-Lago; Officials In Texas County Hardest Hit By Deadly Flash Floods Missed Emergency Briefings; Small Businesses Claim They're Owed Millions By Tesla; Extreme Turbulence On Delta Flight Sends 25 To Hospital. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired July 31, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): ... involving people experiencing mental health crises.
Despite Mamdani's previous statements, he appears to have been embraced by the slain officer's family, who invited him to the funeral.
As thousands of officers lined the streets of the Bronx to pay their final respects, Mamdani's campaign said he sat with the officer's family at their invitation.
Gloria Pazmino, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Thanks for joining us. AC360 starts now.
[20:00:34]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, with his advisers hoping to change the President's verbiage on Jeffrey Epstein, the family of one Epstein accuser is demanding answers about what then citizen Trump knew about what Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell were doing with young women.
Also tonight, the hard lessons now coming to light in the Texas flood zone where so many died just a few weeks ago.
And later, turbulence so bad even frequent fliers were terrified. What Delta Flight 56 hit and what happened next that sent 25 people to the hospital?
Good evening, John Berman here in for Anderson.
In a few short moments, Sarah Fitzpatrick, the reporter who spoke exclusively with the family of the late Virginia Giuffre, who was a high schooler working at Mar-a-Lago in 2000 when Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell, recruited her into what Miss Giuffre said would become a nightmare of sex trafficking and predation by Epstein. First, though, the latest on the questions they want, Epstein's former longtime friend, the President of the United States, to answer. On that score tonight, there is plenty to report. Miss Giuffre's family wants to know what the President knew about what Epstein and Maxwell were up to, and the reason why they're demanding answers now is because of what the President has been saying starting Monday about his split with Epstein.
In short, he said, Epstein has been stealing his employees. A day later, he said that Virginia Giuffre was one of them. "He stole her," was how he put it, which immediately raised hackles, which we are now learning, his advisers have been trying to kind of erase from his lexicon in so many words. CNN's Kaitlan Collins joins us shortly with more on that.
But it was something else he said on Tuesday that raised an awful lot of questions. Remember that until the President rolled out this new employee poaching story, the White House line about why he broke ties with Epstein was that Epstein was a creep to then citizen Trump's female employees. That was the official line, and seems to be what White House staff wants the official line to be today.
In a statement to CNN, Karoline Leavitt told us, "The fact remains that President Trump kicked Jeffrey Epstein out of his club for being a creep to his female employees." But see if you can find a trace of that in what he said the other day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: You said yesterday your falling out with Jeffrey Epstein was over taking some of the workers from your business, but you're administration in the past said that you threw him out because he was a creep. So can you explain that discrepancy?
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, maybe they're the same thing. You know, it's sort of a little bit of the same thing. But no, he took people that worked for me, and I told him, don't do it anymore and he did it and I said, stay the hell out of here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So, that was the President on Tuesday, kind of aggressive staffing maneuvers. He was asked then whether Virginia Giuffre was one of the so-called stolen employees, and he said yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think she worked at the spa. I think so. I think that was one of the people he stole her. And by the way, she had no complaints about us, as you know, none whatsoever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: As you might imagine, by both identifying a former employee and accuser and tying her recruitment to some kind of unspecified creepiness on Epstein's part, it avoided certain obvious and uncomfortable questions. Quoting now, "What Miss Giuffre's family told 'The Atlantic's' Sarah Fitzpatrick in her new report, 'It makes us ask if he was aware of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal actions, especially given his statement two years later that his good friend Jeffrey likes women on the younger side. No doubt about it'".
When we left you last night, the President had just been asked a version of that question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Mr. President, what did you think Epstein was stealing those women for?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: He was asked something similar today, only this time he did answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: You said that Jeffrey Epstein stole people from Mar-a-Lago, at the time did you know why he was taking those young women, including Virginia who was just 16 at the time?
TRUMP: No, I didn't know. I mean, I would figure it was ABC fake news that would ask that question. One of the worst. But no, I don't know really why, but I said if he's taken anybody from Mar-a-Lago, he's hiring or whatever he's doing, I didn't like it and we threw him out. We said, we don't want him, you know, at the place. This is a story that's been known for many years as you know, but its -- I didn't like it that he was doing that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So now, the President says he did not know what Jeffrey Epstein was up to with Virginia Giuffre and he volunteered nothing about any connection between the employee poaching and creepiness.
For him, he makes it sound like it was a staffing issue. So where does that leave what White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt insisted earlier to repeat, the fact remains that President Trump kicked Jeffrey Epstein out of his club for being a creep to his female employees.
[20:05:20]
So, is what Karoline Leavitt thinks is a creep different than what the President does? The President isn't clearing that up and again today, as it has been all week, he is also not saying one single word about the women Epstein and Maxwell preyed on, or what the survivors and their families are reliving once again tonight.
For more now on how this is all going over inside the White House, I'm joined by the anchor of "The Source" and CNN chief White House correspondent, Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan, we mentioned that some people inside the White House officials are trying to sort of massage or clean up or make go away the word "stole" that the President is using. What more can you tell us about that?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think, John, just you know, I had a few conversations with some people inside the White House who realized how that language came off when you were listening to it. And obviously how he's describing, you know, a person who is at the heart of this that was recruited into sex trafficking from his club by Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell and officials just thought that he should use a different word. You heard him saying hiring today and hire them away. Obviously, to describe what happened there in this situation.
But it's really just the fact that the President is speaking on this at all and answering these questions and continuing to raise new ones, frankly, John, that is that is obviously kept the story going for the White House for another new cycle, another day when four weeks ago, officials were telling me they believed the story was going to go away. It wasn't really something they were going to be worried about when it came to backlash from the base over what had been promised and what had actually been delivered.
But clearly, we've seen how this is a story that has persisted and has not gone away, and you've only continued to see that grow from lawmakers demanding answers and asking new questions to now the family of Virginia Giuffre saying that they also have more questions tonight about what was the extent of the President's knowledge or suspicions, potentially, that the President had about Jeffrey Epstein's conduct.
And, I do want to be clear, that doesn't mean the President did anything wrong. There's no connection here to any of Jeffrey Epstein's crimes and the President and the White House has said, you know, he believed he was a creep. That's why he kicked him out. But it's been those questions that the President has answered, including on Air Force One the other day, or the ones that he has chosen not to answer, that have obviously raised questions about what exactly was happening and to the extent of the knowledge about what Jeffrey Epstein was doing.
BERMAN: So, so following Giuffre's family, speaking out about a potential pardon for Maxwell, a senior Trump administration official told CNN that no leniency is being given or discussed in the present tense, I should say. What is your sense of where the President stands on this tonight and why he hasn't clearly ruled it out sort of permanently?
COLLINS: Because I think he wants to keep that option open, frankly. I think that, you know, I've covered Trump for a very long time at this point. Anytime that he notably does not rule something out, he doesn't want to put himself in a box, it is kind of how he describes his thinking here. And the White House says, you know, today on background, this senior official that he is not currently considering it. That doesn't mean it's not going to happen. It also doesn't mean it is going to happen. It's not really clear where the President is coming down on this right now, because he's declined to rule it out, though publicly, when he's been asked on several occasions where he stands on this, not just pardoning her, reducing her sentence is also something that her lawyers and attorneys have clearly been seeking here, as they've been in negotiations with the Justice Department, with members of Congress for her potential testimony there.
And so, I think it's very notable the President hasn't ruled it out. That means that he has not ruled it out. And so, yes, sometimes officials say things at the White House. That doesn't always mean the President is going to adhere to that. And so, I think it still remains to be seen how this ends up.
But I mean, obviously, what her family said in this statement that was so compelling today, John, and I'm going to speak with them in just a moment, was they don't believe any leniency should be given for Ghislaine Maxwell because, yes, obviously, so much of the focus, understandably and rightfully has been on Jeffrey Epstein. But Ghislaine Maxwell was his accomplice here and obviously was convicted of sex trafficking.
And so, that is something that her family, Virginia Giuffre's family, has made clear they do not believe should be on the table. And as a message, they clearly want to reach the President and the White House.
BERMAN: Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much and you beat me to your tease. Kaitlan is going to have much more on all of this when she interviews Virginia Giuffre's family at the top of the hour on "The Source."
With us now, CNN chief political analyst David Axelrod, CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig, and Semafor White House correspondent Shelby Talcott.
David, I just want to ask you, you know, Kaitlan's reporting that there were White House officials uncomfortable when President Trump used the word stole when he said, you know, Epstein stole Virginia Giuffre from Mar-a-Lago. The President didn't use that word today. Maybe that got it out of his verbiage, but he still talking about it somewhat expansively. What does that tell you about how the White House is able to control him on this story?
[20:10:11]
DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: John, you know, they announced today that the President was going to build a new grand, opulent ballroom attached to the White House. And it struck me that the timing was perfect because he's been doing such dancing on this issue for weeks since the story broke, and not particularly well. And he is continuing that story because his explanations and his answers tend to tangle up and conflict with each other and so they engender more questions.
So, as frantically as they try to put this story behind them, he keeps pushing it forward, and it's not clear where it's going to end. One point on this pardon issue, though. Look, the President clearly -- there are things the President doesn't want discussed. I think that that is a theory that seems pretty supportable. And when you hold over out the possibility for someone who may testify before Congress or in some other public forum, the possibility of a parole, that's pretty big leverage. That's pretty big leverage to make sure that the story that she tells is a story that you want told.
BERMAN: Elie, I want to ask you, again, Kaitlan, is going to be speaking to members of the Giuffre family at nine o'clock, but they raised these questions based on the President's statement as a prosecutor, as someone who spent a lot of time prosecuting crimes, what questions would you have based on how the President has spoken this week?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So many questions have come up from these contradictory statements. Let me list a few. First of all, how did Donald Trump come to have a 16-year old Virginia Giuffre working in his spa in the year 2000?
Second of all, when Jeffrey Epstein stole her, what did he think Jeffrey Epstein was stealing her to do? He was in finance, a 16-year- old to go work in high finance. Third of all, if that's the cause, that stealing. I'm using his word of Virginia Giuffre in 2000 was the cause of their relationship ending. Why two years later, in 2002, does Donald Trump tell "New York" Magazine that Jeffrey Epstein's a wonderful guy who likes women on the younger side.
Next, what did you mean when you said he likes women on the younger side? What were you basing that on? Which women were you talking about? How young?
And finally, what was the real reason for the fallout? Either he was poaching your employees or he was acting like a creep. As Karoline Leavitt just said today, a lot of contradictions here, and they get deeper by the day.
BERMAN: And again, no suggestion that the President himself did anything wrong. But the way he discussed it, if this case were still ongoing, might make him the type of witness that investigators would want to be to.
HONIG: All valid inquiries, yes.
BERMAN: So, Shelby, you know, again, Kaitlan and David were just talking about how the White House has handled this and how the President has extended it with his own words. Do they do they blame -- I mean, no one at the White House would ever blame the President for anything directly, but do they feel like he is the one who's keeping this going to a certain extent.
SHELBY TALCOTT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, SEMAFOR: I think to a certain extent, and I say that because this is common for Donald Trump, this is not the first time that he has perhaps continued talking about a subject that the administration or his campaign would rather him just avoid. It happens all the time. And so, this administration in particular, is filled with people who have worked with him for many years. And so, they are now used to them wanting an issue to go away and maybe them wanting Donald Trump to stay quiet but that's not the reality.
And so, what you're seeing is sort of the administration have to shift, have to figure out what the next step is, because Donald Trump does keep answering these questions and some of his answers are contradicting what the White House has been saying. And so, you're seeing them sort of figure that out in real time as this continues to be a news cycle, in part because of Donald Trump's answers.
BERMAN: Am I wrong thinking there was still space today between what the President said and what Karoline Leavitt was saying, that that creepiness means he was creepy to female employees? Because that's -- you know, the President, they don't seem to be on the same message there.
TALCOTT: Right, you know, you heard the President on Air Force One sort of suggest that it could be the same thing, and maybe it could be but the fact of the matter is, the White House official answer of he kicked -- he got kicked out of Mar-a-Lago for being a creep is different than Donald Trump's answer of I kicked him out of the club because he was stealing employees from me.
Those are those are two different answers. And so, that alone is sort of I think the White House is trying to figure out, they clearly would like the message to stay on Jeffrey Epstein as a creep.
BERMAN: You know, David, obviously they want this to die down, but the fact -- you're over here -- the fact that the President keeps on speaking about this, do you think in a way that he that he has come to the conclusion, maybe it's not as damaging to him as they might have feared earlier? I mean, clearly, if he thought it hurt him to keep on talking about it, he wouldn't do it.
[20:15:00]
AXELROD: Yes, although, I think he also has the belief that he can talk his way out of anything. He has done that a lot. In his life, he has been in a lot of jams. He has talked his way out of a lot of jams.
The thing that makes this different is that his supporters, some of his supporters, some core supporters are intensely interested in this story. They have deep suspicions about it and everything he is doing is fueling their suspicions.
So, look, I don't have any doubt that most Americans are not, you know, they're trying to live their lives and they're probably more concerned about the cost of the food on their table and other issues. This is not the biggest issue in their life, but it is curious to people as to why he is handling it this way, why they don't just, you know, disgorge the documents that they said they were going to disgorge and let there be a full airing.
And the more he does this, I think the more it raises suspicions in their mind.
BERMAN: A pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell, Elie, the White House continues to say the President is not talking about it. It is not something he is thinking about now.
But as Kaitlan said, he is not ruling it out either because he doesn't want to put himself in a box over it.
I mean, generally speaking, the President can pardon whoever he wants, but it is usually for, you know, good behavior or wrongful incarceration or something.
HONIG: Legally, he absolutely could pardon her. The thing is, though, what President in history, if ever asked, will you be pardoning this convicted child sex trafficker would say anything other than N-O! And the reason Ax said it earlier, David Axelrod said it earlier, leverage. Leverage right?
Here, now, we have Ghislaine Maxwell openly soliciting a pardon in her letter the other day. Let me just underscore the stakes. She is 63 years old right now. She is serving a 20-year sentence. If you do all the federal math, she will be until she is seventy-six -- 63 to 76, that's a lot of person's remaining lifespan and one of her only remaining outs is a pardon or commutation.
So Donald Trump knows that. She knows that and it is going to impact her credibility.
BERMAN: Shelby, it is interesting in the way Ax was saying it before about the President's base cares deeply about this story, but do they blame him for it? It is one thing to care about it and want to know more. It is another to think that there is something going on with him and I am not sure that they do necessarily.
TALCOTT: Yes, I think the vast majority of his base don't believe that this is being kept from them, because there is something nefarious going on involving Donald Trump.
I think the majority of his base is blaming Pam Bondi for this, partly because for the first six months of the administration, she would oftentimes go on T.V. and sort of suggest that there was all of these disclosures that were going to happen and so this was really hyped up.
But at the same time, there is frustration aimed at Donald Trump because they feel like the President should be doing more to sort of force all of these documents to be released.
BERMAN: Of course, President Trump and Pam Bondi, the Attorney General, both could do more to get these documents released.
Thank you all so much for being with us tonight.
Next, more on the family of Virginia Giuffre from the investigative reporter who broke the story in "The Atlantic" of how this week has affected them. Also, "Miami Herald" investigative reporter Julie K. Brown, whose hard work documenting the Epstein saga led to prosecutors reopening the case.
And later, stunning revelations in the wake of the Texas floods. What some officials now admit they did not do.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:22:46]
BERMAN: As we mentioned, the family of one of Jeffrey Epstein's most prominent accusers is speaking out following President Trump's comments that she was poached from his club to work for Epstein.
Virginia Giuffre worked at the spa in Mar-a-Lago in 2000 before being approached by Ghislaine Maxwell about taking a job with Epstein. In 2019, she publicly alleged Epstein trafficked her and forced her to have sex with his powerful friends.
In April of this year, she died by suicide. Her family says they were shocked by the President's suggestion that she was "stolen."
Speaking out in a statement first obtained by investigative reporter Sarah Fitzpatrick for "The Atlantic," who joins me in a moment, quoting from her article, "It makes us ask if he was aware of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal actions, especially given his statement two years later that his good friend, Jeffrey likes women on the younger side, no doubt about it. Miss Giuffre's two brothers and her sisters-in-law told 'The Atlantic' in an exclusive statement, their first public response to the president, 'We and the public are asking for answers. Survivors deserve this.'"
Sarah Fitzpatrick joins us now and has been in close contact with Miss Giuffre's family throughout the day and preceding months. Also with us, "Miami Herald" investigative reporter, Julie K. Brown, whose work exposed the extent of Epstein's alleged sex trafficking ring and led prosecutors to reopen the case.
She is also the author of "Perversion of Justice: The Jeffrey Epstein Story."
Okay, Sarah, I want to just start with you, and I know you have been in close contact with Virginia Giuffre's family. How have they been holding up and what more are they telling you now?
SARAH FITZPATRICK, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "THE ATLANTIC": Look, I think this is a family, you have to remember that they have lost their beloved sister. And so they are every day in the midst of an unimaginable grief and mourning and that is something that they struggle with every day and that they're trying to make sense of every day.
And so I think this week, when the President brought up their sister in such a -- what seemed to be deliberate but offhand way, you know, they're just -- they're reeling. They're trying to make sense of it. But they also recognize the moment, and I think today they saw -- they were kind of given some feeling of support and encouragement by the public that the public has such an interest in this case, because they want those answers and they view this moment even though it comes at tremendous cost, and it is very painful for them to speak out.
[20:25:07]
They are subject to harassment. They have received death threats, but they know that the best way to honor their sister's legacy is to ask the most important questions right now, which is if anyone had information that was material to the criminality at the time, which in this case may be the President of the United States, please let us know.
They want transparency and they want transparency because they want to make sure that something like this never happens again to any child, whether or not they are connected to someone rich and powerful.
BERMAN: Do they feel like he is holding back?
FITZPATRICK: I think they just want transparency. They want -- you know, this is someone -- the President of the United States has the full law enforcement at their disposal. This is the second time he has had all of law enforcement at his disposal.
So if there are not just documents that have already been, you know, under seal or involved in this case, there is also new avenues potentially for new information to come to light, and the reason that's important is because it provides accountability and it also provides a roadmap to prevent this from ever happening to any child ever again and that's what they want.
So yes, they want any information that could be relevant to come forward.
BERMAN: So Julie, you've made a really important point that the President says he was upset about Epstein poaching his employees. You say it is actually Maxwell who was luring young women away. So what do you make of the President's evolving version of this?
JULIE K. BROWN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "MIAMI HERALD": Well, it is wildly inconsistent. I mean, his spokeswoman, Karoline Leavitt even mentioned something today, I believe that it was -- that said that he -- the President said he was a creep because of the way he treated women at the club and that's even another version that is something altogether new right there.
So it has been inconsistent, and so it raises questions about what he knew about what Epstein was doing. I mean, why would they take -- why would Epstein steal these young women that worked at his club? I mean, if he was aware that he was stealing them, you might question whether he knew why he was stealing them.
BERMAN: So the President said he didn't know why. Today, he says he didn't know why Epstein was stealing them. What do you make of that explanation today?
BROWN: I mean, it is just another new inconsistent statement. I mean, he doesn't really explain. He says a lot of things off the cuff, and changes it seems almost every day. So it is hard to know exactly what the truth is here.
BERMAN: And again, in this case, there are people who were very badly hurt by Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. So there are consequences, direct consequences to some of these words and some of these questions that are out there.
Sarah, I want to read another portion of the statement that Virginia Giuffre's family gave you, addressing Maxwell: "If our sister could speak today, she would be most angered by the fact that the government is listening to a known perjurer, a woman who repeatedly lied under oath and will continue to do so as long as it benefits her position."
So a senior administration official says no leniency is being given now or discussed now for Maxwell, didn't rule it out forever. They haven't ruled it out for forever. But you know, what information could Maxwell have for investigators, do you think?
FITZPATRICK: Maxwell was at -- you know, Virginia was consistent on this, all of the victims that I've ever spoken to at this point, which is in the hundreds, they -- Ghislaine Maxwell was at the center of this sex trafficking operation, and she was the person who would recruit victims, who would train victims.
Virginia spoke publicly and had told authorities about how she was trained how to spot who might be a good victim to approach and how to approach them and how to groom them for this process.
So Ghislaine, really is viewed by not just victims, but investigators and others who are in Epstein's orbit as someone who was really at the center of this operation, and some will go so far as to say that she was really the most kind of evil, many victims have used that word and Virginia's family used that word because she was directing it and kind of not just participating, but directing it.
Now, I think that the family and others involved in this case who have experience would say they are very concerned that Maxwell, while she could offer information, has proven not to be a reliable narrator. And I think, you know, I spoke to a lot of law enforcement today who were really alarmed, reminding me that Maxwell tried to evade law enforcement for a long time when she knew they were looking for them, and so her track record on being, you know, someone to rely on, truthfully and in good faith, that remains to be seen what that would look like.
BERMAN: Sarah Fitzpatrick, Julie K. Brown, thanks so much for being with us tonight.
Next, people in Texas demanding answers why did local county officials miss emergency briefings just ahead of deadly flash floods that killed dozens earlier this month? And later, small businesses helped Elon Musk, the world's richest man build his empire, now, dozens of those contractors say, they weren't paid for the work they did for Tesla and his other companies, a CNN investigation there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:35:28]
BERMAN: Devastating testimony today at a hearing in Texas on why officials from Kerr County were not prepared for the deadly flash floods that killed more than 100 people earlier this month. Kerr was the hardest hit county when the Guadalupe River surged over its banks on July 4th.
Today's hearing revealed that key county officials missed emergency briefings just before the floodwaters struck. The county's emergency management coordinator testified that he was sick at home.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I stayed in bed throughout July the third and did not participate in the regularly scheduled 10:00 a.m. and 3:00 p.m. Texas Emergency Management Coordination Center coordination calls. I briefly woke around 2:00 p.m. when there was no local rainfall or indication of elevated risk and returned to rest.
I was awakened around 5:30 a.m. on July the 4th by my wife, following a call from the city of Kerrville EMC Jeremy Hughes requesting that I mobilize. I reported immediately to the sheriff's office. There was no visible flooding on my drive into the office, but it quickly became clear that the situation was escalating.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
BERMAN: CNN's Shimon Prokupecz was at today's hearing in Kerrville, Texas. Shimon, do you get a sense of what kind of accountability these county officials could face?
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: There right now, this is the first time that we're even hearing from them. Remember, in the first week, we kept asking for answers. We kept asking for a timeline. We kept asking for what were you people doing in the middle of the night in the lead up to this?
And today, finally, from the emergency operations coordinator, he says he was home sick and no one else in this county, in this city, was on any of the calls having to deal with the preparation that the Texas Department of Emergency Management was relaying and telling them, hey, watch out, be careful, this could potentially be a problem. And also the county judge.
You know, today it was revealed that no one even knew where he was on the 3rd, on July 3rd. He wasn't in any of the briefings. And then on July 4th, there were a lot of questions about where was he? And finally, the lieutenant governor today had had it and went after him. Take a listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
LT. GOV. DAN PATRICK (R), TEXAS: Governor Youngkin was here. I was here. The mayor was here. Everyone was here.
ROB KELLY, JUDGE: Then I wasn't. Then I wasn't.
PATRICK: And you were not. You were not. And I asked the question, where is the county judge? I have covered multiple emergencies in my 10 years as lieutenant governor. This is about as bad of a day as you can have, and I've had a lot of bad days.
Because we didn't just lose people. We didn't know where people were. And you weren't here. I asked where you were for the press conference that night. You weren't here.
I don't know where you were on day one on July 4th. But you should have been here. You should have been here directing that response. That's your responsibility.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
BERMAN: Shimon, you also got a chance to question the mayor today about the flood response. What did he tell you?
PROKUPECZ: Right. It was the mayor of Kerrville, and I asked him whether or not he was invited to the briefing from the Texas Department of Emergency Management on July 3rd. He initially had told us that he didn't know about any phone call. Well, today I had his e- mail. I had the e-mail that he received from Texas Department of Emergency Management inviting him to the call. And I asked him about that, and he finally revealed that he got the e-mail, but he was never on the call.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
PROKUPECZ: One of the times that I had questioned you at the press conference, I had asked you if you were on any phone calls or --
MAYOR JOE HERRING, KERRVILLE, TEXAS: Yes, I misunderstood. I thought you said, did someone call me?
PROKUPECZ: Yes.
HERRING: And I did not receive a telephone call.
PROKUPECZ: OK.
HERRING: I did receive an invitation --
PROKUPECZ: OK. From?
HERRING: -- which I've said I wish I'd have seen it, but I didn't see it.
PROKUPECZ: You didn't see the invitation.
HERRING: I did not.
PROKUPECZ: To your e-mails that were released, you saw them.
HERRING: They were there. I know.
PROKUPECZ: They were there. It was at 1:00 a.m. that you got an e- mail.
HERRING: At 1:00 a.m.?
PROKUPECZ: Yes.
HERRING: I didn't know the time.
PROKUPECZ: From Texas Department of Emergency Management saying that there would be a call at 10:00 a.m.
HERRING: OK. I didn't see those e-mails. I'm sorry.
PROKUPECZ: But like, I guess had you seen that e-mail, you would have been on the call, right? I mean --
HERRING: I would have been on the call. I take responsibility for missing the e-mail. I do. I do. I wish I'd seen it.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
[20:40:00]
PROKUPECZ: And, John, behind me, this is where the hearing in Kerrville is taking place. This has been going on for about 10 hours, probably like three to four more hours to go here. As they're doing public comment, residents are coming here, voicing their concerns, voicing their opinions.
We'll see where this goes from here, but certainly still a lot of questions.
BERMAN: You're asking the right ones.
Shimon Prokupecz, thanks so much for being there. We appreciate it.
With us now, CNN Senior National Security Analyst, Juliette Kayyem. She's also a former assistant secretary of the Department of Homeland Security. And, Juliette, you heard Shimon's report. You know, how does this happen? How do people miss e-mails, miss briefings, and no one fills in for them?
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Why are we doing e-mails? I mean, it's -- you know, you don't hear an e-mail. There's a whole system of notification that either doesn't exist or broke down in this. And I share Shimon's anger because any emergency management agency should have what we call continuity of operations. You're not dependent on a single point of failure of someone getting sick.
I understand people get sick. He says he notified -- the emergency management had said he notified his bosses. But the sheriff doesn't get -- the sheriff is also out. He doesn't get called until 4:20 a.m. on July 4th. No one knows where the county judge is.
And so this, you know, the way the system should work is it has redundancy so that continuity of operations continue. That 10:00 a.m. phone call on July 3rd, it wasn't specific. It didn't know how bad the briefers or Texas Emergency Management, the state, they don't know how specific it's going to be.
But others on the call testified that they left that call with an uneasy feeling. And there was no one from the relevant county who was on that call to start to prepare people, start to notify, start to tell the camp counselors, the camp heads -- we're hearing things that may be bad -- give people notice. That's the government's obligation. So I share in the sort of jaw-dropping aspects of this.
BERMAN: So the Kerr County Sheriff testified that he didn't know if sirens would have changed the outcome. He said the water just came on too fast. One of the survivors called that offensive. What do you think?
KAYYEM: Absolutely. I mean, these men testified today that they have these big jobs. But then when they're not there, it doesn't matter that they weren't there. It's ridiculous.
But I do want to say one thing. We should not look at the single-man theory of disasters that have -- but for one person, you know, that this would have gone better. There were choices made by the county, by the state, by the governor and the lieutenant governor about sirens, about preparedness, that they have to take responsibility for, too.
I'm glad to hear that things may be changing. So while there are individuals who may not have performed well, there's a whole system that left those children vulnerable, and it's a little precious of the lieutenant governor to blame everyone else.
BERMAN: Juliette Kayyem, nice to see you tonight. Thank you very much.
Up next, a CNN investigation finds Tesla, the car company owned by Elon Musk, the world's richest man, is accused of owing nearly $25 million in unpaid bills to dozens of small businesses. What are Kyung Lah uncovered in Texas ahead.
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[20:47:56]
BERMAN: A CNN investigation has found that Tesla, Elon Musk's most famous company, has a pattern of not paying contractors who do work for them even after the work is completed. Musk is the world's richest man, and while he may be known for his ruthless, cost-cutting approach, the companies going into business with him aren't expecting to be left unpaid.
CNN's Kyung Lah went to Texas to follow the paper trail.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: How would you characterize what Elon Musk's company did to you?
JENNIFER MEISSNER, FORMER TESLA CONTRACTOR: It was devastating, what they did.
LAH (voice-over): They is Elon Musk's Tesla, and it had hired Jennifer Meissner's piping and welding company. But she says working for Tesla led to her financial ruin. And a CNN investigation found dozens of small businesses like Meissner's claim Tesla never paid them for work they did.
LAH: Is someone like you able to fight the world's richest man?
MEISSNER: No. No. I absolutely wanted to fight him because we were in the right. No small company can litigate against Tesla. You have to take the hit.
LAH: So this is where Meissner says all her troubles began, at the Tesla Gigafactory here in Austin.
LAH (voice-over): Independent contractors like Meissner built this sprawling factory.
LAH: Meissner says Tesla stopped paying her after she'd already done the work here, owing her $1.6 million.
LAH (voice-over): And she's not the only one. A CNN investigation found 97 other small businesses say Tesla owed them a total of more than $110 million in the last five years. Tesla still owes more than $24.5 million in unpaid bills to some of those businesses for work already done.
We found most of the accusations against Musk's companies here in civil court in Austin, revealed in thousands of pages of documents.
LAH: What I am looking at are a number of liens. Now, a lien is an official document that says my company is owed money for work that has been done. Most liens eventually get paid, but that's not always the case for Tesla.
[20:50:05]
LAH (voice-over): A Houston fuel company claimed it's owed more than $2.6 million, saying Tesla conjures up reasons to not pay. That claim was recently resolved. Another Texas company says Tesla ignored written notices and refused to make any payments. Tesla countersued.
An Austin company says it took out short-term loans when Tesla wouldn't pay it nearly $600,000 for work it had done and filed for bankruptcy. Those companies ultimately settled with Tesla. LAH: $108,000. This one's $344. More than $1 million cited here.
MEISSNER: It's a -- it's just a way of doing business at that point. It's not a one-off. It's not just the companies. It's everyone involved in that company. That's a lot of people to disappoint and hurt.
LAH (voice-over): Meissner had to take out short-term loans to keep her company afloat and went bankrupt. She eventually settled with Tesla in court, and they agreed to pay her subcontractors $650,000. But Meissner herself wasn't fully paid.
MEISSNER: Material rental companies, we had up to 60 men. The men is what hurt the most because they believed in us, because we were told it was going to be paid. So they worked for no money. For me not to be able to pay them was difficult.
LAH: So what does the red mean?
MEISSNER: Red means that we were still waiting for payment.
LAH (voice-over): Court hearings and balancing her books now rules her day-to-day. She works two jobs to pay the debt and is trying to restart her company, Professional Process Piping.
Her main goal? Hold on to her home for her special needs daughter.
MEISSNER: The fear is losing it. The fear is having to give that up to be able to pay debt from the fallout of the bankruptcy.
LAH: How long do you think it will be before you're whole?
MEISSNER: I don't know if I ever will truly be whole for a very long time.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
LAH (on-camera): And we did reach out multiple times to Tesla, but the company did not respond. We did see that during the settlement with Meissner, Tesla said that they were unhappy with her company's work, but Meissner says that she only ever received glowing reviews from Tesla before the bankruptcy.
John, we also compared Tesla with another company, Apple, just to see how another big corporation with major construction projects in Texas compares in unpaid liens. Apple owes contractors less than 10 percent of the amount in unpaid bills as compared to Tesla. John?
BERMAN: Kyung Lah, fascinating report. Thank you very much.
LAH (on-camera): You bet.
BERMAN: Just ahead, it might be the worst case of air turbulence in years. More than two dozen people were sent to hospitals. The full story next.
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[20:57:52]
BERMAN: It was a nightmare in the air. A Delta flight yesterday hit such severe turbulence that people were thrown out of their seats. And 25 were hospitalized after an emergency landing. Here's CNN's Pete Muntean.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The images captured by passengers prove the force of what could be the worst case of turbulence on a U.S. commercial flight in years. Anything not strapped down was tossed to the ceiling of the Airbus A330 about 40 minutes into the 9-hour flight from Salt Lake City to Amsterdam.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Minneapolis tower, Delta 56, emergency aircraft.
MUNTEAN (voice-over): The unplanned landing in Minneapolis was caught on video with emergency crews waiting at the gate. 25 people, nearly one in every 10 on board, were taken to hospitals.
WILLIAM WEBSTER, DELTA 56 PASSENGER: I watched a wine cart just get thrown into the air.
MUNTEAN (voice-over): William Webster says the bad turbulence came on quickly and only got worse.
WEBSTER: It was very unnerving. I mean, I'm a frequent flyer, like, I'm on like 80 flights a year, probably flown over a million miles in my life. Never seen anything like that.
MUNTEAN (voice-over): Flight radar 24 shows the flight climbed more than 1,000 feet in less than 30 seconds, followed by a rapid descent, causing passengers to scream and phones to go flying. The flight was over Wyoming, where the National Weather Service warned of potential thunderstorms on Wednesday.
ALLISON CHINCHAR, CNN METEOROLOGIST: A SIGMET, which is an aviation weather advisory, was in effect where we believe the turbulence took place over portions of Wyoming.
MUNTEAN (voice-over): It is just the latest example of passengers being rocked by turbulence in flight. Last year, a British man died after turbulence on a Singapore Airlines flight. But fatalities are rare, and such incidents often leave flight attendants with broken bones.
In this latest case, one passenger who suffered whiplash said the episode felt like an earthquake.
LESLIE WOODS, DELTA 56 PASSENGER: There was a little girl across the aisle from me that was just terrified. She screamed, we're going to die, we're going to die. So I was trying to keep her calm, and I really thought we were going to die. It was that scary.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
MUNTEAN (on-camera): The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating this. It says turbulence is the top cause for injuries on board commercial flights. The pilot told passengers this episode came on without any warning.
Seven Delta crew members were injured in this case. The airline says they have since been released from the hospital. John?
BERMAN: Awful flight there.
Pete Muntean, thank you very much.
That is all for us. I'll see you tomorrow at 7:00 alongside Kate Bolduan for CNN News Central. The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.
