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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Texas Gov. Orders Arrest Of Democrats Who Fled State Over Redistricting; Interview With Texas State Representative Rafael Anchia (D); Trump DOJ Launching Grand Jury Probe Into 2016 Russia Investigation; Epstein Victims Rips DOJ, FBI On Handling The Case; Massive Manhunt For Montana Bar Shooting Suspect Intensifies; Netanyahu To Urge "Full Conquest" Of Gaza As Ceasefire Talks Reach An Impasse; Trump Envoy To Visit Moscow This Week Before Deadline For Ending Ukraine War. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired August 04, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(FREDERIK PLEITGEN speaking in foreign language.)
TRANSLATION: ... Trump said that if no ceasefire is reached in Ukraine, he will impose stronger sanctions on Russia. Are you worried?
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)
TRANSLATION: No, I am not worried about this. I live in my country and I know it will protect itself and those who it promises to care for.
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE speaking in foreign language)
TRANSLATION: Your sanctions are useless. Everything is still fine.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): But even as the Kremlin touts its gains on the battlefield in Ukraine, Moscow claims its key to engage in diplomacy with the Trump administration.
Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Moscow.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Thanks to Fred and thanks to all of you for being with us. AC360 starts now.
[20:00:49]
JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, the Texas Governor, Greg Abbott, orders arrest warrants for missing Democratic lawmakers. This in a redistricting fight that could determine who controls half of Congress next year.
Also tonight, the Trump Justice Department launches a grand jury criminal probe of the Obama administration's handling of 2016 Russian election interference. This less than two weeks after the current President accused the former president of treason and said, "It's time to go after people." Later, Jeffrey Epstein's victims speaking out about the files that for
now, remain under seal. This as the administration stays mum about why his accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell, was moved to cushier confinement.
Good evening everyone, John King here, in for Anderson tonight. And we begin with a major escalation in a political drama that started in ruby red Texas, with the blessing of President Trump and is now spreading to California, to Illinois, to New York, and perhaps other blue states.
At issue, raw politics and drawing new congressional district lines that to shape the battlefield before next year's midterm vote to decide which party controls the House. Late today, the Texas Governor, Greg Abbott, ordering the state's Department of Public Safety to conduct civil arrests of Democratic lawmakers who did not show up for this afternoon's special legislative session in the Texas State House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUSTIN BURROWS (R) TEXAS STATE HOUSE SPEAKER: Members, a quorum is not present. The roll has been called and a quorum has not been established.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: No quorum, meaning not enough lawmakers to conduct business because some of those Democrats did more than just skip work in their attempt to block that Trump-led partisan redrawing of the state's congressional map. That redrawing could give Republicans five more House seats in the midterm elections. They skipped town, many left the state entirely, heading to Illinois, New York, where Democratic governors are now exploring redistricting options of their own.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. KATHY HOCHUL (D-NY): Republicans are willing to rewrite these rules to give themselves an advantage. Then they're leaving us no choice. We must do the same. This is a war, we are at war. And that's why the gloves are off. And I say, bring it on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: For more on all of this tonight, we begin with CNN's chief White House correspondent, the anchor of "The Source," Kaitlan Collins.
Kaitlan, as we said, and as you well know, the President started this. He asked Texas to do this because he wants more seats, more Republican seats to help him stem off any Democratic wave in the midterm elections. How happy is he watching this where it's not just the fight in Texas anymore, this thing has gone national?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's gone incredibly national and obviously we're watching, you know, this standstill that's happening right now in the Texas State Legislature because all these Democrats have left the state as a result of this, trying to block it from happening. But I spoke to White House officials today, John, who say, yes, this is happening now but ultimately they don't believe that they are going to be able to prevent this new map from being implemented.
And yes, there may be legal fights against it, but they do seem quite confident at the White House that this will be in place for next year's midterms. And so one, the President's plan will be potentially ultimately successful here. But two, it also showcases a concern inside the White House about what those midterms are going to look like potentially next year and what the President is up against.
And one thing that they have talked about ever since he took office again back in January, was how to squeeze the most out of what they can right now with the Republican power that they have here in Washington, because as President Trump knows from his last time in office, when Democrats do have power and do have the majority, they have the ability to haul Cabinet Secretaries up to Capitol Hill for questioning. The President himself obviously faced impeachment.
And so, there are real concerns inside the White House about the clocking, the tick -- the clock ticking and what that could look like by next fall. And so, obviously, this is a concern here. The question also, John, is not just what happens in Texas and the White House ultimately believing they'll be successful is, the President and his aides are calling on Missouri to do the same. Ohio is going to be redrawing its district or its map later this year. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis has said that he may take a look at doing this as well.
And so, the question is also inside the White House tonight, where this is going to go and how it could spread, and ultimately up to them, they want to know how it could benefit the President here.
KING: Sounds like a messy few days, if not weeks and months ahead as this one plays out. Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much for kicking us off. We'll see you back at the top of the hour for "The Source."
Joining us now to discuss further. Representative Rafael Anchia, he's one of the lawmakers who decamped to a blue state in this case Illinois. I hope Chicago is treating you well, Representative.
Let me let me get straight to it. The speaker of your House, the Republican, Dustin Burrows, said today of you and your Democratic colleagues, they've, "shirked their responsibilities under the direction and pressure of out-of-state politicians and activists."
The governor went on to say, perhaps you're being bribed or swayed by these out-of-state democratic officials. Is that what's happening?
[20:05:36]
RAFAEL ANCHIA (D), TEXAS STATE REPRESENTATIVE: No, look, and they threat as they threatened us with arrest. They threatened us with fine. But I'm not concerned about the threats from the Governor or Attorney General or anybody else. My sole focus right now is fighting to protect the voice of my constituents. These aren't special interests. The special interests that I'm focused on are the people who elect me to office and they want to make sure that their voting rights are protected. And that's why we left the state. It wasn't anything other than that because Republicans were trying to ram through at Donald Trump's behest, an illegal redistricting map and that that is it, period.
And it's not just Texas, this is happening throughout the country. Donald Trump has demanded that other states do his bidding to rig the election for the midterms, because he knows he's wildly unpopular in this country, and he knows he's going to lose control of the House of Representatives.
KING: This has become a big national conversation, as you note, and as Kaitlan was just discussing, it started in Texas. It could now spread to state after state after state as blue state and red states is going to play a little chess back and forth as this plays out. But you also know the last time Texas lawmakers left the state in a dispute with the Governor. In the end, he won. The lawmakers had to go home, and he won. Do you have a new strategy to make it different this time?
ANCHIA: Well, we're going to continue to fight in the same way. The first step was frustrating quorum. And I just want to point one thing out. When we broke quorum last time, we were able, we saw what was coming. We were able to pass the John Lewis Voting Rights Act out of the U.S. House of Representatives. It was no small feat for this small band of Texas Democrats to get that done.
Ultimately, we couldn't get it past the filibuster in the Senate, but it was worth doing because it contained an independent redistricting commission provision that would have stopped what is exactly happening today, because it's not good for America, that's the punch line. This is bad for people because it allows politicians to choose their voters rather than voters choosing the people who represent them.
KING: Earlier today, as you know, your Republican colleagues back in the Texas State House, they passed a motion. The motion allows civil arrest warrants for Democratic lawmakers like yourself. The Attorney General, Ken Paxton, says you should feel and others should face the full force of the law. Are you concerned, as you sit there in Chicago? Number one, is a Texas ranger going to show up and try to grab you? Do they have any legal rights to do that outside of the lines of Texas?
ANCHIA: Yes, they don't have jurisdiction here. So, we're not concerned about that. Certainly, you know, I had an arrest warrant issued for me, a civil arrest warrant rather in 2021 when we did the quorum break back then. I have it framed in my office today.
Look, people, when they're on the right side of history, when they're standing up for voting rights, when they're making sure that that autocrats don't try to rig elections and take power, they're going to be threatened with arrest. They're going to be threatened with fines. They're going to be threatened with other things, but now is the time to stand up, American Democracy is in the balance, and we, the Texas Democrats, are putting up a wall and drawing a line in the sand. This really isn't about Democrats versus Republicans, this is about American democracy.
KING: Texas State Rep. Rafael Anchia, sir, we'll keep in touch. Appreciate your time tonight, and we'll continue the conversation, I'm sure, in the days ahead.
Joining me now to discuss further our CNN senior political commentator, the former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger; Semafor White House correspondent Shelby Talcott and the former federal prosecutor, Jeff Toobin.
Congressman, I want to start with you, in part because the Texas Democrat who fled his state is in your home state right now. So, we'll start for that reason. But you're also -- you're a very partisan guy when you want to be, when you think it's in your interest as a Republican, but you're not a Trump guy. When you watch this play out, is this the right way to do it?
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it's the only thing they can do right now. Yes, I think so.
Look, I -- let's be clear that redistricting issue itself, it is kind of a bipartisan thing. So, you know --
KING: It used to be, it used to be a bipartisan thing. Well, you mean, I get what you're saying.
KINZINGER: Yes, bipartisan --
KING: Yes, to the victor go the spoils and sometimes they overdo it.
KINZINGER: That's right. So, in Illinois, I got redistricted out of my district twice, including this last time by Democrats. There's not a lot of juice left to squeeze in Illinois. But what's happening in this mid-cycle redistricting or mid-decade redistricting is a pure power grab. It's one thing to do this at the ten years after you have the census done. This is a pure power grab. And what this is doing is basically opening fire so that the rest of the states around the country start doing the same thing.
And where do we go from here? Do we now have redistricting every seven months? Whenever they want to get somebody new in or maybe they don't have enough votes for, you know, a thing to pass. So, they're going to do another redistricting.
I mean, it's out of control, it's insane and from the Democrat's perspective, I do think this is the right move. You're making a stand. We're talking about it right now and were letting the American people know that this is egregious and, you know, quite honestly, this is -- I think Republicans will rue the day if they get this through. Democrats can return fire, but also, we're breaking a lot of norms in this country that don't work for democracy.
[20:10:33]
KING: We are breaking a lot of norms. That is a statement that will clear the fact check. Jeff, to the point the Congressman just made about the law, normally you have the census every ten years then the legislatures go in. And again, if the Democrats have the governor and both chambers, they try to draw the best map for them. If Republicans have the governor in both chambers, they try to draw the best map for them, but that's usually it. There might be a lawsuit about the lines if there's a voting rights issue or something that gets litigated, but then you're done for ten more years.
But now, as the Congressman says, maybe were going to go through this all the time. Is there anything in the law that says you cannot do that?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Short answer, no. This is a norm, this is a custom that redistricting takes place once every ten years. But there is nothing in the Constitution that says redistricting can't take place more often. They could do it every year if they wanted and I think the Congressman is clearly correct. This is a power grab, but it is not one that is unlawful in any way. And the Texas Democrats are doing what they can for the time being.
But the history of these flights from quorums is that they get a lot of attention, whether its Republicans in Oregon or Democrats in Wisconsin, both of which had celebrated flights from the state, they run out of steam. And to the victors go the spoils, as you said and I don't see this ending any other way in Texas except by the Republicans getting the district lines they want.
KING: All right, Shelby is here in studio with me. The President started this. He wanted this because he's worried. He remembers what happened in 2018. Democrats win the midterms, Nancy Pelosi becomes Speaker, breaks on the Trump agenda. So, he's trying to pad get five extra seats that helps. Are they happy with the direction its going or when they see Illinois, or California or New York saying, okay, Texas does this will follow suit. Have they maybe created a monster here?
SHELBY TALCOTT, SEMAFOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think that they maybe have created a monster. I don't know that that's how they view it right now. They're not sort of seeing things as, okay, this is a snowball effect that could ultimately result in Democrats doing the same thing and then you're just kind of having a tit-for-tat war back and forth with their focus is right now is on the midterms.
They view this as hugely important, rightfully so because if they lose the House, if they lose the Senate, in their eyes, they're not going to be able to get anything passed in the last two years of the President being in office. And so, they're thinking short term, I think right now, not necessarily long term.
I also think that they're willing to break some of these norms. They're willing to push the limit and see that maybe it ends up benefiting Republicans more than it would Democrats, that's what they're banking on.
KING: That's what they're banking on, maybe Congressman Kinzinger, but when you have the Democratic Governors, Kathy Hochul in New York, J.B. Pritzker in Illinois, they say, okay, we don't like what you're doing in Texas, but we might do it in our own state. You mentioned this could happen every seven months.
Number one, is that -- if they're going to do it, do we have to do it? Is that the world we have to live in? You started it. I'm going to fight you back. And number two, is someone who's had to run for office, if you're a potential candidate for Congress out there, you'd like more time to run, not less, right? You're not going to know the map for a while.
KINZINGER: Yes, that's absolutely right. That happens every redistricting. Everybody's kind of confused until the maps are final, but unfortunately, John, I think we're in a moment where, you know, when you violate norms. And I don't want to say violating norms like this is just kind of no big deal. It just hasn't been done before. It really is a huge deal.
When Republicans make a decision that they're going to -- it's not illegal, but they're going to really go around the rules because they don't have the ability to convince the American people to keep them in office. So, they're going to try to do this kind of thing. It is imperative on the Democrats to fight back.
Now, I want -- I would love 50 states to have independent redistricting commissions and to be completely nonpartisan. And I think Democrats are kind of leading that charge. Certainly, California has that. But in a moment like this, they're going to have to play with fire. And this is the thing Republicans need to think through. They're not going to be in office forever. Even if they win this midterm and Democrats will come in and have learned from them and the amount of moral compromises that Republican legislators have made when they know stuff like this is wrong is staggering, and they're going to have to look at themselves in the mirror someday.
KING: Jeff, you talked a bit about this, but you heard the Texas State Representative Anchia, at the top of the program saying he called it an illegal Republican map. What would the Republicans have to do to give the Democrats a chance in court to actually prove that illegal, as opposed to political and we don't like it?
[20:15:10]
TOOBIN: Well, one thing we know for sure is that the Supreme Court said in a decision six years ago that political gerrymandering, you know, the politicians helping their own party, that is constitutional, that is clearly still allowed. What they cannot do is discriminate against a minority group in Texas, whether its African-Americans or Hispanics. That is the one area where they might be open to legal challenge. But here's where things, you know, work in the Republican's favor.
The current Supreme Court has limited voting rights in very dramatic ways. It is much harder to prove violation of the Voting Rights Act, the great famous law of 1965, than it used to be. So, I think it is very unlikely that this law, even if it is very much favorable to Republicans, gets overturned by the courts. This is going to be a political fight, much more than a legal fight.
KING: Shelby, take us inside this White House. I covered the White House a long time ago for ten years. When you have these political battles, you know, there's a Karl Rove in the George W. Bush White House, or there's a Rahm Emanuel in the Bill Clinton White House, somebody in the White House whose job it is to keep their hand in the, you know, watching all the -- some big thing playing out in the states.
You mentioned the President wants this done, but is it Governor Abbott do it and Missouri do it, or are they involved in a day-to-day basis in double checking and making sure their will is being carried out?
TALCOTT: Well, the President is well known for calling up lawmakers. He has a strong relationship with a lot of Republicans. So, he's talking to folks and so are his team. He's got a tight political team that he has worked with for a long time, who he really trusts, you know, James Blair, Susie Wiles, they all know what's going on here. And so, that's notable.
But they're also looking at I think the reactions from national Democrats because another thing that this administration has to think about is what happens in a post-Trump Republican orbit, right. Who comes next?
And so, they're looking and they're seeing the reactions from the Pritzkers, from the Gavin Newsoms, and sort of seeing how they can sort of push back on what they're doing for 2028 and for whoever comes after Donald Trump.
KING: I can't believe you would think those Democratic governors are thinking about 2028.
TALCOTT: Shocker.
KING: Shocker, shocker. Adam Kinzinger, Shelby Talcott, thanks. Jeff Toobin, stick around. We want to get Jeff's perspective on tonight's other big story.
The current President of the United States, going after a former president of the United States who he recently accused without any evidence of treason.
And later, two victims of Jeffrey Epstein, who say the FBI and the Justice Department are protecting who they say the Justice Department is protecting at their expense. That's ahead on 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:22:15]
KING: Keeping them honest, tonight, a dramatic new reminder that when the President says something, no matter how outlandish it may sound or how antithetical it might appear to nearly 250 years of American Democratic tradition, well, there's a good chance he actually means what he says. He did after all, openly campaigned on a pledge of retribution against his political opponents and his legal adversaries. And he has already purged the Justice Department of many who have investigated him.
He sued or otherwise intimidated news outlets he doesn't like, cut off funding to universities that upset him, demanded and received millions of dollars in tribute from law firms that displeased him. The President also has withdrawn federal protection from members of his first administration who have criticized him. He's even most recently fired a government official because her department of nonpartisan number crunchers delivered nonpartisan job numbers that the President found inconvenient.
For months now, President Trump has been demonstrating that his talk, whatever else you might think of it, is not just talk. Even as we learned tonight, when its talk like the tangent, he seemed to be going on a week and a half ago when asked about the Epstein investigation. The President did not have an answer that would satisfy his base or keep his own promise. So, he turned his answer into an attack on his first term predecessor, and the allegations his Director of National Intelligence leveled against members of the Obama administration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: The witch hunt that you should be talking about is they caught President Obama absolutely cold. Tulsi Gabbard, what they did to this country in 2016, starting in 2016 but going up all the way -- going up to 2020 and the election, they tried to rig the election and they got caught and there should be very severe consequences for that.
You know, when we caught Hillary Clinton, I said, you know what, let's not go too far here. It's the ex-wife of a President and I thought it was sort of terrible and I let her off the hook. And I'm very happy I did.
But it's time to start -- after what they did to me, and whether it's right or wrong, it's time to go after people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: The President of the United States there saying it's time to go after people. And in case it wasn't clear who or on what grounds, well, the President went on to make it crystal clear.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: ... and it was President Obama, it wasn't a lot of people all over the place, it was them, too. But the leader of the gang was President Obama. Barack Hussein Obama. Have you heard of him? And except for the fact that he gets shielded by the press for his entire life, that's the one they -- look, he's guilty. It's not a question, you know, I like to say, let's give it time. It's there, he's guilty -- this was treason.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:07]
KING: By Trump's accounting, the former President Obama and members of his administration launched the investigation into Russian election interference on false pretenses. Then somehow parlayed that into rigging, as the President called it, the 2020 election. Never mind, and most of you will remember this, that an extensive report by the Republican-controlled Senate Intelligence Committee that year determined that Russia did interfere in 2016.
Never mind also that although two subsequent investigations of the Russia investigation found significant flaws in how it was conducted, and even in the case of the Special Counsel, John Durham's report, questions about whether it should have been conducted at all, none of those investigations uncovered any hint, any hint of criminal wrongdoing on the part of President Obama or other senior members of his administration, let alone treason.
Yet, just days before he went on that treason rant, the President was reposting, you see it there a fake video apparently A.I. generated of President Obama being arrested and handcuffed in the Oval Office. It went up on Trump's site on the 20th of last month.
Three days later, he said Obama was guilty of treason. Today, from a source familiar with that matter, we learned the Attorney General of the United States, Pam Bondi, has directed federal prosecutors to now launch a grand jury probe, apparently turning the President's words into action.
Back to talk about it. Our best-selling author, Supreme Court biographer and former federal prosecutor Jeffrey Toobin. Jeff, I know you think there's nothing to this. I'm just going to play devil's advocate here. There were all the congressional investigations, there was the Durham probe. Nobody brought anything like this up. Is there any possibility after all of that, that Tulsi Gabbard or somebody has found something new? Or is this we don't have an answer on Epstein? President's mad at me about this so let's do that.
TOOBIN: I think it's the former, not the latter, John. I mean, you know, the Durham investigation. Let's just talk about that, because this was something that was initiated by the Trump Justice Department. John Durham had a grand jury at his disposal. He spent years investigating this exact question. The origins of the Russia investigation and whether there was any criminal corruption involved. And he said, no, that is exactly what the Justice Department is now seeking to reinvestigate again.
Now, in addition to John Durham, there was the Senate Intelligence Committee investigation. There was also the Mueller investigation, both of which also concluded there was no criminal wrongdoing by anyone associated in the Obama administration.
So, the idea that there is going to be something new discovered at this point is beyond -- it is just zero. It's just not going to happen. This is a political stunt. It is not a genuine criminal investigation.
KING: Well, just walk me through the process. If you were the Justice Department and the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, said, get this going, what happens now? What will federal prosecutors be doing to if they actually are told to launch an investigation?
TOOBIN: Well, the first thing they will do is they'll go to the records of the Durham investigation and see what they did and look at the documents they got. I mean, obviously, you will try to collect all the documents involved in the FBI launching the investigation that was initially known as Crossfire Hurricane and how it came about. And then you would start to talk to the senior FBI officials, the Director of National Intelligence, anyone in the White House who was involved. But the point to remember, John, is all these people have been talked to before, they've all been talked to either in a grand jury or by FBI agents. And remember, all those statements, it's a crime, if they lied.
So, you know, they've all been talked to before, but presumably they're going to go back to these people again and talk to them once more.
KING: Well, to that point, if you're James Clapper, John Brennan, Jim Comey, even Barack Obama, do you risk -- is it real today that you might be sitting at home thinking, I might have to get a lawyer, I might have to pay tens of thousands, if not more, in legal costs to go through this. You think it's a goose chase, but is that is that their reality?
TOOBIN: Oh, a hundred percent hiring lawyers. I mean, they would be crazy at this point, given what's going on now, not to hire lawyers. So, the cost of the investigation has already started to be assessed against Comey and Clapper and all those people. The question they have to face is, what do they do? Do they answer these questions again from a hostile audience, or do they take the fifth? And if they take the fifth, do they suffer the reputational effects of taking the fifth?
[20:30:09]
That's the problem they're going to face and there's no barrier to conducting an investigation an administration can do an investigation and witnesses have to decide what they want to do in response. There's no legal recourse other than taking the fifth.
KING: It is the election that will never ever, ever, ever end. Jeff Toobin thanks for appreciate your insights tonight.
Up next for us, why Jeffrey Epstein victim is calling the push to unseal grand jury testimony in the case quote political warfare and later the expanded search for an army veteran suspected of shooting four people to death at a Montana bar.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:35:25]
KING: Two of Jeffrey Epstein's victims have filed letters in court decrying the Justice Department's request to unseal grand jury testimony in the case, writing anonymously, they accused the Department of Justice and the FBI of protecting wealthy men while failing the victims. One of the victims writing quote, I wish you would have handled the whole Epstein files with more respect towards and for the victims. I am not some pawn in your political warfare. While neither victim calls on the judge to keep the transcripts under seal, they are asking the judge to take precautions to ensure that victims' identities are not revealed. Joining me now to discuss are CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams, a former federal deputy assistant attorney general and the investigative journalist Sarah Fitzpatrick who's been covering Epstein for The Atlantic.
What does it tell you, Sarah that these two victims, number one, the idea of protecting wealthy men over the victims not saying don't release it but, you know, imploring the court for some sensitivity.
SARAH FITZPATRICK, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Absolutely, I think it really speaks to the desperation that these victims are feeling right now in this moment. And I also think it speaks to the fact that they no longer feel that they can trust the Trump Justice Department.
You know, these victims have come in waves and they had to be convinced to come forward in previous investigations and that involves really serious promises about protecting their identities. So I think it speaks to the desperation and also the fact that they no longer trust that the rule of law under this justice system is going to protect them so they're going straight to the judge.
KING: One federal judge, at least, already denied this request. Here you have, it's still before another judge so it remains possible. Number one, again, I want to make the point to anybody out there, Trump promised to release everything. This would be very limited. This would be grand jury testimony. Not everything, but what is this now? Is this the government actually looking for transparency, is it an illusion of that?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAN ANALYST: They might be trying to get these materials released publicly, but I want to be clear how abundantly clear the law is on the release of grand jury materials. It is, there are very rare circumstances where the law spells out where grand jury materials can be released publicly such as being provided to another prosecutor being provided to another criminal investigation. It does happen.
Now, there's sort of some wiggle room in some federal courts around the country that suggests that maybe under some circumstances it's possible but we're talking Watergate-level disclosure here, not a case that merely because people care about it and it's high profile. And I think these, you know, these letters today sort of are indicative of that the notion that this would ever be an easy, you know, open up the files to everybody is nonsense.
There are many people who have a lot of interest in this, including -- starting with victims and defendants and so on. So don't hold your breath on it being released publicly.
KING: But as this drama plays out will the courts release something? Will Congress subpoena people? Will we get anything from a trump administration that initially promised to give it all and now is not doing that? You were on the program here Friday night when word came out that
Epstein's associate co-conspirator, Ghislaine Maxwell transferred to a lesser security more of a camp in Texas from a harder security federal prison. That gives a whiff right there after she met with the deputy attorney general Todd Blanche. What more do you know about this?
FITZPATRICK: So this is what's stunning. We don't know much more about it. We don't know what was discussed in those hours and hours that she spoke with Todd Blanche. We don't even really know why she was moved or if there was a waiver involved, who had to interfere.
And I think it's very telling that we have asked the Trump White House, we've asked all the normal sources and everyone is extremely tight-lipped and very sensitive about this. So I think that it is very clear that something -- this is something that doesn't have a great explanation and the lack of transparency just speaks to why this story is so important in the first place.
Because why this is a story of national importance is because it appeared in the first Epstein story that there was a different standard of law and decisions were being made behind closed doors that would not hold up to scrutiny and it appears right now that that's the case.
KING: You know the nooks and crannies, the rules, the regulations, the processes, the norms at the justice department.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
KING: On the surface this one kind of stinks.
WILLIANS: It kind of stinks.
KING: Could there be a good explanation for it?
WILLIAMS: There could and I'll just speculate as to one. She got a credible threat on her life in that prison and they moved her into a safer different facility. The problem is that the public's not stupid and people get concerned when it appears that someone who many in the public regard as a bad person is getting a benefit or a sweet deal from the government in some way and so yes people are right to ask questions.
The timing is suspicious where I guess a day or mere days after meeting with the deputy attorney general of the United States.
[20:40:03]
She's moved to a much more -- much less secure facility. So yes, I think people are absolutely right to have questions about it.
KING: I want to quickly come back to the point at the beginning because you make I think the most essential point. The victims are worried. They can't trust the government.
FITZPATRICK: Absolutely. I mean, you cannot overstate how worried they are. They are fearing for their safety. They are fearing for their family's safety. I mean, I'm talking to people who are really describing themselves as being at the very edge and it's not unfounded fears and I think there is a real concern that their identities and their livelihoods.
You know, these are not people with means. These are women who were specifically targeted by Epstein and Maxwell because they would not have the means to defend themselves and so there is a real level of panic for their physical safety right now and it's unfortunate because they came forward based on those assurances and the idea that the Trump Justice Department would go back on those assurances that are made to victims to come forward.
I mean it is a really difficult thing to get.
KING: I hope that point echoes whether it's a judge deciding things, members of Congress deciding things I hope that point does not get lost. Elliot Williams, Sarah Fitzpatrick, thanks for your time tonight.
Next, massive manhunt expanding in Montana for an army veteran suspected of shooting and killing four people at a bar. And later, just a remarkable story of how a wounded Ukrainian soldier made it back to safety after a Russian assault left three of his fellow troops dead.
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[20:46:07]
KING: In Montana tonight, a manhunt has intensified for an army veteran suspected of killing four people at a bar late last week. The authorities say Michael Paul Brown was last seen fleeing the scene in his underwear, but they warn he is likely armed and dangerous.
CNN's Josh Campbell has more on the search.
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JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONENT (voice-over): For a fourth day, authorities scoured the rugged Montana wilderness by land and air, searching for a suspected mass shooter.
AUSTIN KNUDSEN, MONTANA ATTORNEY GENERAL: We've got a lot of expertise, a lot of knowledge of the area. We've got every cabin, every hunting site that's known up there pinned and there was a -- there is a tremendous number of assets focused on searching that area.
DAN BRUNNER, RETIRED FBI SPECIAL AGENT, BOZEMAN, MONTANA: One of the restrictions is the size of the state.
CAMPBELL (voice-over): The mountainous terrain and vast wildlands in this remote part of the state are offering their own challenges.
BRUNNER: So there's a lot of land and a lot, not a lot of people. So there's not a lot of civilians that will be looking out their window looking for a suspicious person. This man could easily hide for multiple, multiple weeks if he had resources prepared for himself.
CAMPBELL (voice-over): The suspect who officials believe is quote well-armed and extremely dangerous is 45-year-old Michael Paul Brown seen shirtless and shoeless on security footage fleeing the Al Bar on Friday morning.
Authorities say Brown lived next door to the bar and was a frequent patron. He was last seen driving a white Ford F-150 pickup that they say was later found abandoned.
KNUDSEN: It was a stolen vehicle, but there was camping equipment in it. We believe there was some clothing in it. So at this point we have every reason to believe the suspect is fully clothed, shoes on his feet, able to get around.
CAMPBELL (voice-over): As the search continues, new details about the suspect are emerging. Brown served in the army from January 2001 to May 2005 and was part of an armored vehicle crew. He was deployed to Iraq from February 2004 to March 2005, later joining the Montana National Guard for just under three years, leaving military service as a sergeant.
Brown's niece telling CNN in a Facebook message that he struggled with mental health in the army and wasn't the same after his service, noting his condition worsened after his parents died.
The army declined to release information about Brown's mental health history, citing policy and privacy constraints.
KNUDSEN: This is an unstable individual who walked in and murdered four people in cold blood for no reason whatsoever. So there absolutely is concern for the public.
CAMPBELL (voice-over): A town now on edge and in mourning for four lives lost in the mass shooting, including Nancy Kelly, who recently retired from a career as a nurse working with cancer patients.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL: And john, there remains this question about motive. We still don't know whether the suspect knew the victims, whether this was some type of random attack. Officials say their first goal right now is to bring him into custody. You know, there's this mantra in law enforcement that action beats reaction. The suspect allegedly conducts his attack and fleas.
Authorities then have to assemble to try to find him. One official pointed out that this is an area that doesn't have a large law enforcement presence, so they had to bring them all in, essentially giving him a head start. They now have a massive amount of officers. They're now looking for him. But as we noted, this remote area is making that so difficult. John.
KING: Josh Campbell appreciate the update. Thank you so much. Up next for us. How a Ukrainian soldier escaped death with the help of a drone and a bike. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:54:14]
KING: The Israeli Security Cabinet meets tomorrow and the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, reportedly preparing to call for expanding the military operation in Gaza. The Israeli media reporting Netanyahu will urge a full conquest of the Gaza Strip. This after another round of negotiations aimed at reaching a ceasefire collapsed.
And this also comes as militant groups have released new videos of hostages like Evyatar David, who was taken from the Nova Music Festival 667 days ago. Images of him emaciated and weak have sparked new protests in Israel.
CNN's Matthew Chance has more and a warning. Some of the images here are disturbing.
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MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The fragile figure of Evyatar David, one of the surviving Israeli hostages still being held in Gaza, about 24 years old and just skin and bone.
[20:55:08]
I haven't eaten for days, he says. In this latest Hamas propaganda video, crouched in a tunnel.
There's not enough food and barely enough water. Look how thin I've become, he says.
CHANCE: And this here is your brother, right here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a photos of him. Yes.
CHANCE (voice-over): Family members have approved use of the images released at the weekend. But his brother, Ilay, told me he could only bear to watch a few solitary frames.
ILAY DAVID, BROTHER OF EVYATAR DAVID: Evyatar was a young, healthy man before he was abducted. Even a bit chubby. And now he looks like a skeleton, a human skeleton, buried alive. That's how he looks and I don't exaggerate.
CHANCE: Do you think he's being starved because there is a shortage of food in Gaza? Or do you think he's being starved intentionally by his captors?
DAVID: I'm sure he's --
CHANCE: Intentionally.
DAVID: I'm sure intentionally, cynically being starved by his captors. We know that his captors have plenty of food. They haven't lost a pound. And they are doing the same to their own people, to the people of Gaza. They are starving them, although they have food.
CHANCE (voice-over): On Israeli television, the newly released videos of emaciated hostages held captive since October the 7th, 2023, are provoking outrage. And it calls for negotiations with Hamas to quickly restart. Very quickly.
This is 22-year-old Ron Braslavsky, another Israeli hostage shown writhing in pain in his Gaza prison. There's barely anything to eat. I can't sleep, I can't live, he sobs.
His own mother, who approved the release of these latest horrifying images, say her son's weak voice sounds like he's accepted he may never come out alive.
And now, hostage families are calling for renewed international pressure on Hamas, not just Israel, for the agony in Gaza to end.
DAVID: If they want the people of Gaza to starve, they'll do it. And they are the ones to blame, and we cannot blame only Israel for that. Hamas is holding all of us hostages right now. All of us, the people of Gaza as well. And they need to be out of the picture.
CHANCE (voice-over): What I'm doing now is digging my own grave, says Evyatar David, as he scrapes at the dirt in his cramped tunnel. Every day, my body becomes weaker and weaker, he says. And time is running out. Matthew Chance, CNN Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: More breaking global news tonight. The White House says Envoy Steve Witkoff will visit Russia on Wednesday. That's ahead of a deadline set by President Trump at the end of the week for Russia to agree to a ceasefire in Ukraine, or else, the President says, he will enact new sanctions.
The threat, though, that threat, might mean little to Ukrainians on the front lines who are trying to dodge Russia's attacks. CNN's Nick Paton Walsh has the story of Andriy, who escaped near-certain death with a special delivery by drone.
(BEGIN VIDETOAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR (voice-over): This Russian assault, brutal, even throwing landmines into the bunkers, had left all three of his fellow soldiers dead in the trench next to him. And Andriy, with his leg wounded, unable to run, thought, like so many Ukrainian soldiers in tiny isolated positions pinned down by Russian drones, that he was done.
ANDRIY, UKRAINIAN SOLDIER: I didn't think I would get out of there. Because I couldn't move. My leg was seriously injured. I couldn't walk.
WALSH (voice-over): But back at his command bunker, watching on drones, they had an idea. Maybe Andriy had the strength to cycle out. So they attached an electric bicycle to a drone like this, moving it slowly, perilously, in pieces to the front. It was dropped to Andriy whole, and then, remarkably, he cycled out.
ANDRIY: I thought, do or die. Either I make it or I don't. I was just riding in one direction. Whatever happen, happens. If I make it, good. If I don't, so be it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on Tankist, speed up, speed up. As far as you can, as fast as you can.
CHANCE (voice-over): The Ukrainians had tried to ensure the skies were free of Russian drones, but that wasn't enough. Andriy hit a landmine.
The drone operator's heart sank, had it all come to nothing? But then, this tiny figure emerged, limping out of the smoke, somehow alive, walking on, his bandaged leg visible.
[21:00:00]
ANDRIY: It grazed my forehead a bit. The wheel and fork were torn apart. But I was fine. I just fell n my side. That's it.
WALSH (voice-over): Greeted by a Ukrainian and helped into another bunker where he had to wait two more days for rescue.
Necessity is the mother of invention in Ukraine, but nothing can beat luck. Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Kyiv, Ukraine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.
