Return to Transcripts main page

Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

DOJ Has Audio Recording, Transcript Of Its Interview With Ghislaine Maxwell; Governor Asks Texas Supreme Court To Remove Key Democrat From Office In Showdown Over Redistricting; Trump: GOP Is "Entitled" To More Seats In Texas; Texas House Dem Leader Gene Wu Responds To Governors Lawsuit Seeking His Removal From Office In Showdown Over Redistricting; Trump Fires Bureau Of Labor Statistics Chief, Claiming Without Evidence That July Jobs Report Was "Rigged"; National Economic Council Director Says Trump "Wants His Own People" At Bureau Of Labor Statistics; U.S. Coast Guard Investigation: Flawed Design And Safety Issues Led To Titan Sub's Deadly Implosion. Aired 8- 9p ET

Aired August 05, 2025 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Moments ago, I watched a judge in this courthouse sentenced Christina Chapman to eight-an- a-half years in prison. He said the safety of the nation was at issue in this case.

As for Miss Chapman, she told the court, weeping that she hates herself for what she did and that she feels like a monster.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATSON: Erin, in June, the Department of Justice announced a separate bust saying it raided 29 suspected laptop farms across 16 states and arrested two suspected laptop farmers in New Jersey. It is estimated the scheme earns North Korea between $225 and $600 million a year. It is so successful that the authorities are worried that other adversary countries and organized crime might try to get in on this scheme -- Erin.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Absolutely incredible reporting, Ivan, thank you so much. And thanks to all of you for being with us. AC360 starts now.

[20:01:06]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, the talk was taped and what Ghislaine Maxwell told the top Trump administration lawyer in her quest for clemency could soon be made public. The question is, why would the White House do that? And would she tell the truth about anything?

Also tonight, breaking news out of Texas, where the governor has just tried to get a top Democratic lawmaker removed from office for opposing Republican efforts to redraw the State's Congressional map. And later, the report is in on what doomed the OceanGate Titan on its trip to the Titanic, and all the warning signs that either went unseen or were kept from the public view.

Good evening everyone, John King in for Anderson tonight, and we begin with striking. And in some ways puzzling new developments in a story that never seems to run out of ether. They concern what already were two highly unusual, if not totally unprecedented, meetings between the deputy attorney general, who also happens to be the President's former criminal defense attorney, and a federal inmate who also happens to be one of the most notorious sex offenders and exploiters of underage women in recent American history.

Today, we learned that the conversation between Todd Blanche and Ghislaine Maxwell just days before she was transferred to a so-called club fed prison camp, was recorded. Not only that, three senior officials tell CNN the administration is considering releasing a transcript of the talks.

Maxwell, you'll remember, is a potential cooperating witness in the continuing Jeffrey Epstein saga, as well as the focus of more than a little suspicion involving her motives for talking and whether shed tell anything resembling the whole truth. And there are questions, as well, about why the administration is making such an effort to get her to talk. Even as that same administration balks at releasing what lawmakers on both sides of the aisle have been demanding for weeks now, namely, more details from the Justice Department's full Epstein- Maxwell investigation.

CNN's Kaitlan Collins joins us shortly. Late today, she asked the President to important questions about the case. The first, whether the President was aware and did he approve of Maxwell's prison transfer?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I didn't know about it at all. No, I read about it just like you did.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And do you believe that she --

TRUMP: It's not a very uncommon thing?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Actually, that's a Trump tell -- a tic. It's highly uncommon for a sex offender to be where she is. And as for the Blanche meeting, well, the President said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: He's a very talented man. His name is Todd Blanche. He's a very legitimate person, very high -- just a very highly thought of person, respected by everybody. And I didn't talk to him about it but I will tell you that whatever he asked would be totally appropriate and it's not an uncommon thing to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: There it is again, not an uncommon thing, that's the tell, that's also not true. As former law enforcement officials have told us for days now. It is notably uncommon, notably uncommon for a Deputy Attorney General to get involved in the kind of talks Todd Blanche had with Maxwell.

Also today, the House Oversight Committee subpoenaed the DOJ for redacted versions of any Epstein files in its possession. The Republican, important to note, Republican led panel also subpoenaed ten people from the Biden and the Trump administration's for closed door depositions. Most notably, listed former President Bill Clinton, most notably not listed President Donald J. Trump.

For more on all of this tonight, we begin with CNN's chief White House correspondent and, of course, the anchor of "The Source," Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan, we played some of that exchange you had with the President today. What else did he say about Miss Maxwell and her meeting with -- sorry, it is uncommon, the Deputy Attorney General.

COLLINS: It is uncommon, which is why it's gotten so much scrutiny. But it also kind of reveals the position the administration is in that they felt the need to go and meet with her when it comes to handling of these files and what comes next. And of course, the question that still remains tonight is what they're going to do with that conversation.

But I thought what stood out and what you're about to hear from the President is my question was whether or not the President personally finds Ghislaine Maxwell to be credible and believable. We've heard from survivors and victims of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, who say she's not. And when I asked him essentially about that and followed up on it, this is what he told me.

[20:05:17]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think he probably wants to make sure that, you know, people that should not be involved or aren't involved are not hurt by something that would be very, very unfortunate, very unfair to a lot of people. But I will say this Todd Blanche is one of the most highly respected people you'll ever meet.

So, I know this. I didn't discuss it with him, but anything he talked about with her, or the fact that he did that, not unusual, number one and most importantly, is something that would be totally above board.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: I mean, essentially, that was not a question that he was asked, which was about the meeting was appropriate or how he felt about it. We know that he's okay with it. He's defended it many times publicly. But the to the point of whether or not they find her credible, that is really important in terms of what they are going to do with whatever information. she revealed to Todd Blanche in that interview.

And as of course, we reported today, there is a recording of it. They're considering releasing a transcript of it. We'll see if that happens. But it was a notable comment from the President coming about what that looks like and how that that moment stands as his Attorney General, Pam Bondi, had just been on stage with him a few moments before.

Because this is a key question that is very much still in front of them, especially with the House Oversight Committee subpoenaing the Epstein files from the Justice Department is how they handle that. Do they get in a fight with Republicans over that? And what does this look like going forward?

KING: It doesn't look like they know their way out, a mess of their own making. It doesn't look like they have any idea where the way out is here.

COLLINS: Yes, it's remarkable and it's been going on for weeks now. And obviously, the question is, is it still here when the House comes back into town and if they're voting on this?

KING: My bet is yes. Kaitlan Collins, thank you. And of course, we'll see you just at the top of the hour for "The Source." Everybody come back for that. Stay with us straight through it.

And joining us now to continue the conversation, the former federal prosecutor Elie Honig, the journalist and co-founder of "Lift Our Voices," Gretchen Carlson; former senior adviser to President Obama, David Axelrod and the former Trump campaign adviser David Urban.

David Axelrod, I want to start with you, and I'm going to ask you to set aside your democrat hat and be a Presidential adviser, as you have been in the oval office at a time of political difficulty for the President.

You heard the President say he didn't know about Maxwell prison transfer until he read about it, and he didn't discuss the Maxwell meeting with his deputy attorney general, former personal attorney Todd Blanche. White House officials are eager to take control of this. My dad used to say the first rule of holes is to stop digging. They seem they keep digging, do you have any sense that they're getting control of this? Moving the needle the way they need to move it?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, obviously not, because we're still here talking about it, and many other people are talking about it because there's a new permutation every day, and all of it seems to flow from the President's sort of awkward discomfort with the whole thing. And, you know, raises the suspicion that there are things he just doesn't want in the public domain. But you ask me, as a Presidential adviser, I would tell him what I told my President and what I would tell anyone in a crisis situation, figure out where this story is going and get there as quickly as possible. Do not try -- do not prolong the story, however bad it is. Get to the bottom of it and get it behind you and he is not following that advice.

KING: He does not seem to be following that advice. Elie, again, I called it a tic or a tell. When the President says something is very uncommon -- that is very common, that usually means it's very uncommon. He says, you heard him, nothing unusual, about the number two at the Justice Department and all of the other dealings with Miss Maxwell, including her transfer to an upgrade in the federal prison system. What do you say?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Okay, there's nothing unusual about this. Let's start with her upgrade in her -- downgrading her security status. First of all, to see a convicted child sex offender move down from a low to a minimum security, you need a waiver, you need a specific exemption from DOJ in order to do that.

Second of all, having the Deputy Attorney General go in and meet face to face with someone serving a sentence is virtually unprecedented. And then finally, the fact, John, that they're thinking about putting this transcript out there, you would never do that in an ordinary situation as a prosecutor, if you were thinking of actually bringing further criminal charges based on this person's situation.

So, contrary to what President Trump said, there are many things about this, virtually everything that are highly unusual.

KING: Gretchen, it's the President himself who said, as a candidate, he's going to release everything. And now they say they're going to debate releasing the Maxwell transcript, which is a very limited and also a very recent conversation with the Deputy Attorney General.

Walk us through -- is that enough to satisfy the MAGA base? Well, we can't give you everything we promised you. In his case, he can't give them everything he promised them. Will that be enough, if they do that?

[20:10:06]

GRETCHEN CARLSON, CO-FOUNDER, "LIFT OUR VOICES": Look, I think the idea that they're actually floating, that they might release this transcript means that they're going to release it. I mean, you can't float that out there and then not do it in the middle of a crisis story that we've been talking about now for more than a month.

But do I believe that that's going to quell the MAGA base or anyone else? I mean, keep in mind, all of the polls are showing 80 to 86 percent of them, the basic general public wants to hear more about this. This is bigger than the MAGA base and the problem with this is that we all know that Trump is Maxwell's ticket out of dodge in a pardon. So, can anyone believe what would be on these tapes or this transcript?

So, there are a lot of issues here. The only thing that I think quells this to David's comment about how you get out of a crisis, calm situation, is that Trump could release the millions of other documents that are at his fingertips right now, but he is choosing not to do that and every other move that he comes up with seems to just keep this horrible story going for him.

KING: And David Urban, to you, that point, you know the President, you know that right now he's not happy about how this is being handled by his people. If the DOJ wanted to release, as Gretchen notes, the Maxwell transcript, Attorney General Bondi could release that right now. We could be talking about it in minutes if they wanted to release more of the files. She release that, binder said, it was a big deal. Turns out it wasn't really a big deal. But she said that was the beginning. We haven't seen anything else. What should they do?

DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. John, well, the problem is with that first binder, right, when you release a binder and it says phase one, that implies there's going to be a phase two and that was the misstep. Whoever had the label maker that day should be fired, right. And so, now you're in this problem where no matter what you release, no matter how much you release, there's always going to be this hunt for, you know, for the green men from Area 51.

You know, the President released a voluminous, you know, tons of more documents on the JFK assassination, some stuff on Martin Luther King on, on unidentified aerial phenomena. And it still doesn't have people stop talking about, you know, any of those subjects. In this case, I think more transparency is warranted. I think, interestingly, in the Comer subpoenas, the one name that I didn't see, I wasn't concerned about Donald Trump, the one name I didn't see was the man who cut this deal is Alex Acosta.

If you want to get to the nub of the issue, I think you should talk to the person who cut the deal with Jeffrey Epstein in the first place. And I was surprised to see him not subpoenaed by the House. So, I think that's the question, you know, why wasn't Alex Acosta subpoenaed? And what can he tell us?

KING: Well, to that point, I was going to get to this a bit later in the conversation but you raised an important point. You know, the House Oversight Committee has these subpoenas. Let's -- I know it's hard for some people in the conversation. Let's just assume for a minute, this is a legitimate inquiry, that they think President Clinton has more information or valuable information that they think Merrick Garland has more information or valuable information that they think, you know, former Attorney General Gonzales and other Republicans who Trump doesn't like that are on that list have more information. Let's just accept that for a second. Then why isn't President Trump or Melania Trump on that list? Because they had a lot of meetings with Jeffrey Epstein, and they would have information, too.

If the President is telling the truth, and I actually assume he is, that he broke with Jeffrey Epstein because Jeffrey Epstein was poaching female employees from Mar-a-Lago. Why isn't the H.R. director of Mar-a-Lago on that subpoena list, and other top Mar-a-Lago officials who might know something about it? My point is, why won't they be serious people? It's a clown car unless you give a serious witness list.

URBAN: Was that to me, or is that to the group in general, John?

KING: Jump in, sir.

URBAN: Listen, I think -- oh, go, David.

AXELROD: I think -- no, I mean, you know, this is this is your crowd, Dave, so you may have better insight, but my sense is that you've got a bunch of Republican legislators here who are caught between a rock and a hard place. They want to be seen as being probing, but they don't want to trip any wires with Donald Trump, who clearly has concerns about what's in the public domain and what's not in the public domain.

And by the way, if there's anyone, given how much publicity this has gotten, given how provocative it's been with the MAGA base, the idea that he is somehow too busy or too disinterested to inquire as to what is going on when he seems to be kind of remote controlling a lot of things that the Justice Department does is beyond any credibility.

But, I think these members of Congress are hearing it from their constituents. They want to look like they're responsive, but they want they want -- they don't want to be too responsive because that will get them in hot water with the boss.

KING: Right, it's not a serious list because it's -- go ahead, David.

URBAN: John, I would just say Elie's the expert here. But like -- let's just be clear, none of those individuals are going to testify because of executive privilege, right? So, no one's going before the committee. You know, I don't think they're going to get any. I've not you know, I don't think anyone's going to cooperate voluntarily and I don't think anyone's going to be cudgeled into showing up.

[20:15:19]

KING: They underestimate their own voters if they think that's a serious list. We're going to continue this conversation. Everyone, please stay put. We'll continue it after a quick break.

And later in the program, it turns out there were warning signs all the way down. What the final report reveals about that submersible which killed five, including its creator, on the way down to the Titanic wreckage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:20:06]

KING: We're talking tonight not for the first time about the Epstein case and as David Axelrod pointed out before the break, so are the voters, including this one at a Town Hall with Republican Congressman, Mike Flood of Nebraska.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are you covering up the Epstein files?

REP. MIKE FLOOD (R-NE): At the next pro forma session of the Congress, you'll find my name as a sponsor on a resolution from the House Rules Committee to release the Epstein files to protect the victims and not re-victimize them again. I am for the release of those records.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: We're back with our great panel. David Urban, Republican strategist, to you, look, town halls are not always contextual, an activist can show up and get to the microphone, so that may not be representative fully of the district. However, I know from Trump voters, I have in my all over the map project, they want answers. They smell something they don't like here. You have a midterm election next year. You need those people to show up and vote. What are the Republicans have to do? What does the President have to do to close this book?

URBAN: John, look, I think at the end of the day, what people are talking about in America largely -- while there are some people who are concerned about this, this won't be the issue that drives voters when it comes to election day. It's going to be kitchen table issues. It will be -- can they pay the rent or gas prices cheaper? What's the cost of groceries? It will be things that affect their pocketbooks. This is largely a sideshow to the extent that it lingers on and it's about transparency in government. Can you trust the government?

Those things always poll pretty poorly -- can you trust the government regardless of whether its Democrat or Republican. I think the Trump administration likes to pride itself on trying to get to more and trusting the government, to the extent that there's a lack of transparency, it's going to hurt him.

But again, at the end of the day, kitchen table issues rule the day.

KING: At the end of the day, in a midterm election, little tiny margins in turnout can also rule the day, though. We've learned that in Presidential elections as well. So, I think you're right about economic issues. However, everything matters.

Elie, back to the legal front for just a second, if you're Ghislaine Maxwell attorney, all right, you said today, you don't want the grand jury transcripts released, but you also have President of the United States who has not publicly ruled out a pardon. So, what's your next move?

HONIG: Well, the first thing that you're going to do if you're Ghislaine Maxwell's attorney, is hope you win in the Supreme Court. But putting that aside, look, Ghislaine Maxwell has made no secret of her motivations here. She wants to get out early. She's got 13 years left on her sentence and aside from the long shot chances in the Supreme Court, she's got two ways to do that.

One, is to solicit a pardon, which she has already done in writing, and the other is to convince DOJ -- Todd Blanche is the number two guy at DOJ to write a letter to a judge, something we call a Rule 35 seeking a lower sentence. And John, this goes to the core issue of Ghislaine Maxwell's credibility, right, Kaitlan Collins asked the President about this today.

Beyond the fact that Ghislaine Maxwell is a convicted child sex trafficker, beyond the fact that Ghislaine Maxwell has committed perjury under oath when asked about this in the past, what is her motive? What is her incentive? Every one of her motives is to please Donald Trump, to please DOJ and Todd Blanche. Whether she's telling the truth or not, I have no idea. Most people, I think, have no idea. But she is a tainted non-credible witness because she has bad, self- serving motives here.

KING: And Gretchen, I think more critical than anything, there's a lot of politics at play here. It's an interesting story. It's a fascinating story because Maxwell's legal plays, there's different things the President says.

There also happen to be dozens and dozens of victims who are traumatized every time this is discussed publicly, and every time they are reminded of it. Some of them wrote to a federal judge today saying in part, "... for survivors who bravely testified, the perception that Miss Maxwell is being legitimized in public discourse has already resulted in re-traumatization."

Gretchen, how closely do you think administration officials, or are they paying attention at all to the victims? So they worried more about the President's political standing than people who have already been hurt enough and are only being hurt more.

CARLSON: Well, I can't get inside the head of President Trump or his administration with regard to how they feel about the survivors here, but there are fewer survivors, and there are voters by a long stretch. And so, I'm not sure that they're putting them top of mind. I mean, the way that they could completely respect the survivors right now is to say outright, I'm not giving Maxwell a pardon.

I mean, it's disgraceful that he has not been able to say that for a child sex trafficker, a convicted one, a convicted child predator, that he is still thinking about it, that it's something that he might consider. That is what is the most disgraceful and politicization of this entire issue with regard to the survivors.

KING: Tee-ball, David Axelrod for the Democrats, President Trump has FBI director, his deputy Justice Department official, they all said during the campaign, were going to do this. There's this huge thing or cover up. We're going to release it all. So, its tee-ball to say, Mr. President, why haven't you kept your promise? But is that enough of the Democrats, or should they be trying to make this about something different, about transparency, about trustworthiness, about what?

[20:25:20]

AXELROD: Well, first of all, I don't really speak for the Democratic Party anymore as my pursuit. I'm here -- but I can tell you what I would suggest to them if I were still in that racket, I would say that what Gretchen just said to me is really, really powerful. I think that the idea that you would even consider that you can't say no to the question, would you give a woman who has recruited, groomed and participated in the sexual assault of young women, would you give her a pardon, and you can't get to the right answer?

I think it is really powerful and I mean, leave the politics aside, and I know that's almost impossible to do, but it's just so deeply offensive to the values that all Americans share. Whether you're a MAGA person or someone from a completely different perspective. And I honestly don't know why we haven't heard more about that, because it really is disgraceful.

KING: I appreciate everyone coming in tonight. Unfortunately, this conversation I think will continue.

Up next, the latest salvo in the battle over who could control Congress. I'll talk with the Texas House Democratic leader, the governor there just tried to oust from office, his crime blocking Republican efforts to redraw election districts.

And later, "The New York Times" columnist Thomas Friedman on why he believes, with President Trump in office, "the America we knew is rapidly slipping away."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:31:42]

KING: Texas Republicans tried and failed today for a second day in a row to advance their efforts to redraw the state's congressional map in their favor, with Democratic lawmakers staying out of state, denying Republicans in the Texas House a quorum.

Tonight, Governor Greg Abbott asked the Texas Supreme Court to remove the Democratic Leader, Gene Wu, from his office. I'll speak with Leader Wu in just a moment.

First, though, CNN's Ed Lavandera joins us. Ed, what more do we know about this effort by the governor, extraordinary, to oust the minority leader?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, you know, the governor started making these threats just a few days ago when Democrats first fled the state, but this is some of the first concrete steps that we've seen being taken by the governor to try to follow through this process, which, by all accounts, is kind of treading on very murky legal grounds.

But it's not only the governor who is saying tonight that he is going to -- has filed a suit with the Texas Supreme Court, requesting that Gene Wu, who's the chairman of the Democratic caucus here in Texas, and been at the forefront of this redistricting battle and this fight between Democrats and Republicans here, that he's asking the Supreme Court to have Representative Wu removed from office. And he's asking the court to respond by this Thursday afternoon. This also comes as Attorney General Ken Paxton, a Republican as well, saying similar things. There was a Friday deadline in terms of trying to begin the legal process to have the Democrats removed from office. But this is a very clear, specific targeting, John, of one specific member, Gene Wu.

KING: And Ed, there's also talk about maybe sending the FBI or getting the FBI to help the governor round up these Democratic lawmakers. What do we know about that?

LAVANDERA: Yes. We saw earlier today that Senator John Cornyn, a Republican from Texas, says he had sent a letter to the FBI director asking the FBI director to get involved in the search for the Democrats outside the state lines. Remember, civil arrest warrants have been issued here in the state by the Speaker of the House, but that's really not enforceable beyond state lines.

And then tonight, President Donald Trump was asked about using federal authorities to track down the Democrats, and this is how he responded to that question.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think they've abandoned the state. Nobody's seen anything like it, even though they've done it twice before. And in a certain way, it almost looks like they've abandoned the state. It looks very bad.

Yes, go ahead, please?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Should the FBI get involved?

TRUMP: Well, they may have to.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

LAVANDERA Yes. So this would be kind of extraordinary steps that we would see develop here in the coming days. But despite all of these, Democrats still saying, we've heard repeatedly today, that they have no plans to return to Austin for the time being.

KING: Ed Lavandera, great you're there in Austin tracking this important story for us. Thank you, Ed.

And joining me now, the aforementioned Democratic leader of the Texas Statehouse, Gene Wu. Leader Wu, grateful for your time tonight. Just tell me, what was your reaction straight up when you heard the governor was going to the state Supreme Court saying, kick you out of office?

GENE WU (D), TEXAS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: Yes, this is just purely insanity. First of all, this is not my seat. And it sure as hell not Governor Abbott's seat. This seat belongs to the people of the state of Texas. And I've taken multiple oaths to defend them and to protect them at any cost.

[20:35:05]

And what we're looking at is a governor who is conspiring with a disgraced president to use unconstitutional, illegal, racial gerrymandering to destroy our communities. I have a duty to respond to that. I have an obligation to do everything I can to stop that using every legal means necessary.

More importantly, Governor Abbott is simply ignoring the cries of so many families around the state who have suffered during the Kerrville disaster. And so many other communities are saying -- are begging for help, asking for him to help them recover. And he has ignored them and instead done his own little political games.

It is my moral duty to call this out, to show the entire state what is happening. I would be in neglect of my duty if I was not here.

KING: As you noted at the top, Governor Abbott is doing this because President Trump asked him to do it. President Trump today said he's entitled, entitled is the word he used, to five more seats out of Texas. But he also said something else today. He was talking about election results in Massachusetts. Massachusetts, a very blue state.

But listen to what the president said in the context of House seats.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

TRUMP: I got 40 percent in Massachusetts, and yet they have 100 percent of the vote in terms of Congress. So there's no Republican. There's no anything. So I should -- we should have 40 percent. You know why? They redistricted.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

KING: So, you know, this is not the way it works, but I want to apply the president's math, the president's logic in air quotes to Texas. President actually got 36 percent in Massachusetts, right? So let's assume if you accepted his logic, he gets 36 percent of the congressional seats, the House seats from Massachusetts.

Well, if we applied that to Texas, if we applied that to Texas, Kamala Harris got 42 percent of the vote, 42 percent of the vote. Right now, it's 25 Republicans, 12 Democrats in one vacancy out of Texas.

If you applied Trump's math, the Democrats would get 16 seats. So if Governor Abbott said, I agree with President Trump, I will give you the -- I'll give Democrats the proportion of House seats in Texas to Kamala Harris's vote. So you would get 16. I assume you'd saddle up and go home in the morning.

WU: Look, this is not about my seat. It's not about any member seat. It's not about Democrats versus Republicans. This is about our communities. And what's important about what they're doing. The thing that brings us into this fight is not about the seats.

The thing that brings us in this fight are about those communities. Those communities may not vote for us even. But over time, those communities have built up power. They've built up their voice. They are able to defend themselves now.

And now that they're able to stand up for themselves, Donald Trump looks to steal their power, steal their voice away from them. That's what's the problem. Not how many each party gets. It's about those communities.

KING: Leader Wu, appreciate your time on this important night. We will continue the conversation. Obviously, this plays out in the days ahead, sir. Thank you so much.

Up next, the New York Times Columnist Thomas Friedman on why he believes the president has just done the most dangerous thing yet.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:43:06]

KING: Wall Street doesn't like it. International investors hate it. And the New York Times Columnist Thomas Friedman calls it a dangerous move. Maybe even a breaking point. The issue here? President Trump's decision to fire the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics because he did not like the numbers released in the government's July jobs report.

The president offered zero evidence. But he claims those numbers were rigged for political purposes. Now if you're a regular reader of Tom Friedman, you know, even if you might disagree at times, you're going to get well thought out and well reported analysis. So his latest column should get you thinking. Again, even if you disagree.

Friedman sees this firing of a government bureaucrat hardly anyone knows is dangerous, sees the failure of anyone in Trump's inner circle to protest as cowardly. And says if a president is able to tailor information to fit his political needs, we will lose more than good data. "We will," he writes, "lose the America that we know."

Tom Friedman joins me now. He's the author, of course, of "From Beirut to Jerusalem" and more. Tom, it's good to see you.

You write in your column, a hefty column, of all the terrible things Donald Trump has said and done as president. The most dangerous one just happened on Friday. Explain to the person out there who says, oh, come on.

He just -- he fired a bureaucrat. Get over it. Why is this one more important than some of the other way outside the norms things he has done?

THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN, NEW YORK TIMES FOREIGN AFFAIRS COLUMNIST: You know, John, my teacher and friend, Dov Seidman, likes to say that trust is the only legal performance enhancing drug. When there's trust in the room, whether it's in a news organization or government institution, it's like a hard floor. And you can -- even a short guy like me can dunk a basketball off a hard floor. It's the foundation of everything. If you break that trust of an institution, whether it's a news organization or a government institution or a court, you lose everything. You cannot get it back.

[20:45:09]

And what the Trump people so ignore, so forget is what Chinese would give for one day of our Securities and Exchange Commission. What Russians would give for one day of our FBI or Justice Department when they were properly led. Our institutions, they understand are the foundation and secret of our sauce.

And when you as a president go for several months praising the data out of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, because the economy was thriving when it did, and then suddenly you say, because of one month's data, the whole thing's rigged. And you fire the director. You basically threaten America's secret sauce that our institutions can be respected, trusted and therefore built on for investments and anything else we want to do as a society.

KING: You made what I think is a critical point there, and I want to come back to it. My first job in Washington was as the AP labor writer. I used to cover that report every month, every first Friday when it came out. Those first early months I was here, we were in a mild recession. And those numbers were horrible for then President George H.W. Bush.

And he never questioned the bureaucrats. He never questioned the stats. He never questioned the data, right? You're right. Back in 2019, when the economy was booming along pre-COVID, Donald Trump loved those reports. He also, by the way, loved election results when he wins and hates election results when he loses. Love judges when he wins. Hates judges when he loses.

There's a pattern here. The question is, how do you break it?

FRIEDMAN: Well, you know, the only way to break it would be as it was done in the past. Watergate, for instance, as you know, John, is if his own party and his own officials and appointees refused to go along with it. But what you saw here instead, you saw a remarkable thing that morning, as the Wall Street Journal pointed out.

The Secretary of Labor actually praised the numbers when they came out --

KING: Right.

FRIEDMAN: -- said it showed positive signs. Then she saw Trump's tweet and then she just turned on a dime.

The shameful and shamelessness of these people, the people you count on. Dennis Hastert, the head of the Economic Advisers, Scott Bessent, the Treasury secretary, Jamieson Greer, the head of the Trade Office, the key economic players of this administration, just sat there like a bunch of bobbleheads, nodding their head at what the president had alleged and done, fired this experienced, seasoned bureaucrat who has devoted her life basically to the government. And they all just sat there and did nothing.

And John, you cannot have a democracy when one -- when party is completely not on the level, when it simply will not draw a single line around any excess or destruction of norms or destruction of institutions by this president. Shame on these people.

KING: You called that cowardly, that they would not stand up in your excellent column there. And you also talked about the international ramifications. And you've written about this and we're all trying to fully understand this. When the president criticizes allies, walks away from partnerships, at the moment is helping Ukraine after a long time saying he wouldn't.

But around the world, people see something like this. And, you know, if you invest in U.S. treasuries, now you're worrying about U.S. government numbers. Can I trust the numbers? So there's a huge authoritarian power grab here, but it also has giant credibility and economic ramifications around the world, right?

FRIEDMAN: You know, John, what distinguishes us from Russia and China? It's really besides the fact that we're a democracy. What is our great advantage over them? So we had allies. We could actually build coalitions around the world.

The reason Putin and President Xi of China, if they could have voted in our election, always would be voting for Trump, is they know that as long as Trump is at the helm in Washington, D.C., he can never build a coalition against them. And that is such a huge loss of amplification of our power that we are just throwing away our single greatest advantage, which is that we have allies, and they don't.

KING: I don't see this happening, but play along with me as devil's advocate. Keep an open mind. The president says he's going to announce a new commissioner in the next few days. I agree with you about the cowardly nature of people not standing up to say, Mr. President, this is something you cannot do.

This is data. They revise it every month. It's not perfect. No agency is perfect. No human being is perfect. No statistician is perfect. But this is the way it goes. We need it the way it is. But he's going to name a new nominee. Is there a way to fix this if the people who won't speak out publicly can at least get to the president privately?

FRIEDMAN: I don't think so. I mean, when those statistics come out next month, no matter what they say, how could anyone really trust them? You know, when you break confidence, no matter what they say, how could anyone really trust them?

[20:50:06]

You know, when you break confidence like that, it doesn't just come back by naming a new person. And so -- John, can we just talk for one sec about the personal level -- at the personal level. I don't know the woman who ran the BLS, OK? But all I know, she was a lifelong, you know, government senior official, Ph.D. What about her personally? How would you like to be fired from CNN because the president said you rigged the news, you know what I mean? And you just get tossed out on the street from an institution you've devoted your life for? These are real people. And you do that without a shred of evidence. Shame on you for doing that.

What a terrible thing to do to people. And that's nothing compared to -- think of what they did to the head of the NSC, NSA, our National Security Agency, fired, you know, General Haugh while he was on a trip to Japan because Laura Loomer, some loopy conspiracy theorist, said he was a friend of General Milley's. We're not seeing the terrible damage they're doing both to these institutions and to actual real people who have devoted their life of service to the U.S. government.

KING: I want to come back to the Watergate point you made. Do you see any evidence that there's anyone out there withstanding in the Republican Party willing to stand up and call this out? I mean, there -- in the first term there were some. Now there seem to be almost none.

FRIEDMAN: They're all gone, John. The ones who would left. You know, I tell people in my own life, my own personal, I don't know anyone like these people. I don't get it. To me, they clearly live in houses that have no mirrors, no wives and no daughters.

Because if this were me, I could not look in the mirror for having sold my soul this way. My wife would have thrown my mattress out into the driveway with my golf clubs and my daughters wouldn't speak to me. So I don't know what goes on in their houses, but that's what would go on in mine.

KING: Tom Friedman, as always, appreciate your thoughts, sir, very much. Thank you.

Just ahead for us, the findings of U.S. Coast Guard investigation into the catastrophic implosion of that Titan submersible on its journey to the Titanic wreckage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:57:03]

KING: A damning report released today by the Coast Guard. That report into the catastrophic 2023 implosion of the Titan submersible on its dive to the Titanic wreckage. Five people were killed. The investigation concludes that the factors contributing to their deaths were both many and they were shocking.

More tonight from CNN's Jason Carroll.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

STOCKTON RUSH, OCEANGATE'S FORMER CEO: I'd like to be remembered as an innovator. You're remembered for the rules you break.

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Haunting words coming from OceanGate's former CEO, Stockton Rush, in 2021. Selling the world on the dream of deep-sea submersible expeditions. His company created the Titan, a craft built to take the super-rich to see the sunken Titanic at a price of $250,000 per seat.

RUSH: All the lead down here can be dropped in an absolute emergency so you can get to the surface.

CARROLL (voice-over): Titan had made more than a dozen dives to the Titanic. The submersible community watched as it began what would be its last expedition on June 18th, 2023. On board, Stockton, who was the pilot, along with famed deep-sea explorer Paul-Henri Nargeolet, British adventurer Hamish Harding, businessman Shahzada Dawood, and his 19-year-old son, Suleman. An hour and 45 minutes into the descent, communication was suddenly lost.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was that bang?

CARROLL (voice-over): What followed was nearly a week of worldwide attention. In the years following the accident, questions about what happened and who was responsible for the catastrophic implosion that killed all five on board. A new report from the Coast Guard says the implosion was a preventable tragedy and that former OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush was criminally negligent for his role in what had happened.

JASON NEUBAUER, DEPUTY CHIEF, OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS & ANALYSIS, U.S. COAST GUARD: Mr. Rush had somehow survived. We would have made a recommendation that the Department of Justice do a separate inquiry, criminal investigation into the matter.

CARROLL (voice-over): What led to the implosion? The Coast Guard Marine Board of Investigation found "the primary contributing factors were OceanGate's inadequate design, certification, maintenance, and inspection process for the Titan." The report revealed in 2018 a submersible pilot was fired after raising critical safety concerns about the Titan.

The report also found in 2022, OceanGate ignored warning signs with Titan's hull. Earlier that year, a loud banging noise was heard during Titan's ascent, a possible sign that the hull was not structurally sound. The report backs up testimony from several of OceanGate's former employees last year.

DAVID LOCHRIDGE, FORMER DIRECTOR OF MARINE OPERATIONS, OCEANGATE: There was a big push to get this done and a lot of steps along the way were missed.

RUSH: I've broken some rules to make this.

CARROLL (voice-over): Rush was a highly controversial figure among deep sea explorers well before the catastrophic implosion.

RUSH: I have no desire to die.

CARROLL (voice-over): A recently released Netflix documentary explored his vision for Titan and its eventual demise. Submersible experts were critical of Rush's approach to building Titan and its eventual demise. Submersible experts were critical of Rush's approach to building Titan, saying its construction was not founded in tested science.

NEUBAUER: I think it was very serious. The fact that the vessel was operated, in our opinion, illegally, you know, with paying passengers, with no certification, no even registration for the vessel itself, really, I haven't seen that before.

CARROLL (voice-over): Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

KING: And the news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.