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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Senators Grill RFK Jr. Amid CDC, Vaccine Policy Turmoil; Interview with Sen. Raphael Warnock (D-GA); President Trump Hosts Tech Leaders in State Dining Room; President Trump Hosts Tech Leaders In State Dining Room; First Lady Urges Leaders To Prepare Children For The Growth Of AI: "The Robots Are Here"; Trump To Sign Executive Order To Change Name Of Department Of Defense To Department Of War; DOJ Launches Mortgage Fraud Investigation Into Fed's Lisa Cook; Officials: At Least 16 People, Including 1 American Killed In Funicular Crash In Lisbon; Remembering Giorgio Armani. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired September 04, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HARRY ENTEN CNN, CHIEF DATA ANALYST: ... percent, the plurality of Indians think that, in fact, Trump is honest, compared to just 36 percent of all Americans who think that Trump is honest. So again, we're just shooting ourselves in the foot with this type of talk. The right is shooting themselves on the foot with this type of talk, because the bottom line is, Indian-Americans and residents of India really are more going towards the Republican direction and now stuff like this, we'll just have to wait and see.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Right, we'll see what happens with it. All right, Harry, thank you so much as always, and thanks so much to all of you. It's time for Anderson.
[20:00:32]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360 under bipartisan fire on vaccines, billions in cuts for critical medical research, rural health care and more, HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. goes before lawmakers and gets an earful.
Also tonight, the President reaches back to 1947 and gets ready to take the fence off the door and make it the Department of War again.
Plus, the weather may have ruined tonight's dinnertime debut for the paved over Rose Garden, what's going on inside with tech and A.I. titans is the real story. Kara Swisher is here to break it down for us.
Good evening. Thanks for joining us. We begin tonight with HHS Secretary Kennedy's Senate testimony today. It came a bit more than seven months and one major measles outbreak into his time as secretary, nearly a trillion dollars in Medicaid cuts, billions of dollars cut from research grants into better vaccines and other public health issues, mass firings at the National Institutes of Health and the CDC, including that agency's entire vaccine advisory panel, as well as its director just 29 days into her job. Also, an attempted mass shooting at the CDC by an anti-vaxxer who killed a police officer there.
None of this is typical, and none fits any precedent, nor for that matter, did his appearance today before the Senate Finance Committee. Now it's not often, for example, that the ranking member starts out by openly calling the witness a Cabinet Secretary, no less a liar.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RON WYDEN (D-OR): It's unfortunate that I have to say this, but this is a witness who has lied to members of the Senate Finance Committee in response to over 35 written questions, including from me, he said, and I quote that, "He would do nothing as HHS Secretary that makes it difficult or discourages people from taking vaccines." That was clearly not true.
His unprecedented unilateral actions to restrict access to COVID vaccines, that alone proves it. He tried to fire the Senate approved CDC director after she chose the truth. So, my request, Mr. Chairman, and I think it is unfortunate that I have to do this, but given the unprecedented nature of the witness' behavior, I would ask now that the committee formally swear in Robert Kennedy as a witness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Senator Mike Crapo, the Finance Chairman, said, no. And the skeptical questions from Democrats and even some Republicans began.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): Do you accept the fact that a million Americans died from COVID?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: I don't know how many died.
WARNER: You're the Secretary of Health and Human Services. You don't have any idea how many Americans died from COVID.
KENNEDY JR.: I don't think anybody knows, because the there was so much data chaos coming out of the CDC, and there was some --
(VOICE OVERLAP)
WARNER: You don't know the answer of how many Americans died from COVID. This is the Secretary of Health and Human Services. Do you think the vaccine did anything to prevent additional deaths?
KENNEDY JR.: Again, I would like to see the data.
WARNER: Secretary of Health and Human Services doesn't know how many Americans died from COVID, let them know that vaccine helped prevent any deaths, and you are sitting as Secretary of Health and Human Services. How can you be that ignorant?
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Before I misspoke the chairman -- the Finance Chairman is Senator Mike Crapo. Georgia Senator Raphael Warnock, who joins us shortly pointed out that the secretary had never been to the CDC before the shooting there and had not been briefed by scientists there about vaccines. Minnesota Democrat Tina Smith grilled him about what she sees as inconsistent statements about vaccines.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TINA SMITH (D-MN): When were you lying, sir? When you told this committee that you were not anti-vax, or when you told Americans that there's no safe and effective vaccine?
KENNEDY JR.: Both things are true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Senator Bernie Sanders, whose call for the Secretary to resign, had sharp words for Mr. Kennedy on Medicaid cuts, and Republican Senator and Orthopedic Surgeon John Barrasso said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO (R-WY): Secretary Kennedy, in your confirmation hearings, you promised to uphold the highest standards for vaccines. Since then, I've grown deeply concerned. The public has seen measles outbreaks leadership at the National Institute of Health questioning the use of MRNA vaccines, the recently confirmed director of Centers for Disease Control and Prevention fired. Americans don't know who to rely on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Another Republican doctor, Louisiana's Bill Cassidy also showed both skepticism of Secretary Kennedy's record on vaccines and devised an interesting way to couch it in praise for the President.
SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): Mr. Secretary, do you agree with me that the President, that the President deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed?
KENNEDY JR.: Absolutely, Senator.
CASSIDY: You also said that you are also a lead attorney for the children's health defense, you engaged in multiple lawsuits attempting to restrict access to the COVID vaccine. Again, it surprises me that you think so highly of Operation Warp Speed when as an attorney, you attempted to restrict access.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:05:38]
COOPER: The Secretary started by also praising the President, but when he launched into a long digression on Ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, President Biden and vaccine mandates, among other subjects, Dr. Cassidy stopped him and added this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASSIDY: This is from Eric Erickson, good conservative out of Atlanta, Georgia, occasionally gives me help. My wife has stage four lung cancer. She is one of the people the COVID vaccine actually helps, thanks to the current deaths that HHS, CVS is unable to get her vaccine.
Secondly, an e-mail from a physician friend of mine, Hey, Bill, I'm not even sure what I'm asking, but we're all confused and concerned about who can get the COVID vaccine. We are having our attorney try and render an opinion, but there's no firm guidance and concern about liability if vaccines are given to a patient requested but not on the current CDC list.
Pharmacists are requiring a prescription now, even for patients over 65 creating a huge headache. I submit these for the record.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Without objection.
CASSIDY: I would say, effectively, we're denying people vaccine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I -- Senator Cantwell
KENNEDY JR.: You're wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Secretary Kennedy was also asked about the recent firing of CDC Director Susan Monarez after she refused his demand, she resigned. Here is how he explained why she had to go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNEDY JR: I told her that she had to resign because I asked her, are you a trustworthy person? And she said no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Which seems like a strange answer for her or anyone to give. Her attorneys in a statement called Kennedy's claims about her today as, "false" and at times "patently ridiculous," as for Miss Monarez, she said this in an op-ed for "The Wall Street Journal" "Public health shouldn't be partisan. Vaccines have saved millions of lives under administrations of both parties. Parents deserve a CDC they can trust to put children above politics, evidence above ideology, and facts above fear. I was fired for holding that line."
And just moments ago, at a White House dinner for tech CEOs, the President had this to say about RFK Jr.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Didn't get to watch the hearings today, but he's a very good person and he means very well, and he's got some little different ideas, I guarantee a lot of the people at this table, like RFK Jr. and I do, but he's got a different take, and we want to listen to all of those takes, but I heard he did very well today, but it's not your standard talk. I would say that, and that has to do with medical and vaccines. But if you look at what's going on in the world with health, and look at this country also with regard to health, I like the fact that he's different.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I want to bring in Georgia Democratic Senator Raphael Warnock, who was among the lawmakers confronting Secretary Kennedy on the Hill today. He closed out his time with this
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D-GA): Secretary Kennedy, for the first time, we're seeing deaths from children from measles. We haven't seen that in two decades. We're seeing that under your watch, you are a hazard to the health of the American people.
KENNEDY JR.: Can I respond?
WARNOCK: No, I claim back to my time. You are a hazard to the health of the American people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to wrap up.
WARNOCK: I think that you ought to resign and if you don't resign, the President of the United States, who put forward Operation Warp Speed, which worked, should fire you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And Senator Raphael Warnock joins me now. We just played a little of what President Trump just said this evening about Secretary Kennedy. It doesn't sound like he has lost the President's support.
WARNOCK: Good evening, good to be with you tonight. Listen, we are in a tragically ironic moment in which the biggest threat to the health of the American people is the Secretary of Health and Human Services, and I can think of no obligation more sacred for an American President than making sure that the people of this country are safe.
Robert Kennedy is a hazard to our health, and he needs to be fired. It couldn't it couldn't happen sooner.
COOPER: But are you surprised by any of the things he has done and said, I mean, it seems like he had made his record pretty clear early on. It seems like it's what got him in this position the first -- at least for the President.
WARNOCK: I was deeply worried about this appointment, and while I was glad to see some of my Republican friends join us in this effort, and in beginning, at least to ask some questions. It's unfortunate that they gave away their power and our obligation as senators to engage in the work of advice and consent.
This man is manifestly unfit. He never should have been confirmed in the first place. And the only difference between the hearings when we were -- when he was up for confirmation and where we are now is -- is my fears have been confirmed, and worse this -- this is worse than many of us expected.
COOPER: You know, it's interesting, I mean that obviously, look, there were a lot of mistakes made by public health officials during the COVID crisis. A lot of them had not ever seen anything like this. There was never like a 911 style commission about what went right, what went wrong, what do we need to fix for the next time? And there certainly will be another pandemic. How concerned are you about -- you know, we now in Florida, they eliminate all vaccine mandates, you know, for kids going to school, which will endanger other kids who are going to school, even if they do have vaccines. What happens? I mean, if there's no public trust in the CDC anymore, or what's coming out of the administration, from their health officials, what happens to public health?
WARNOCK: Well, I understand you're putting your finger right on the problem. I mean, trust is at the heart of what you have to have in order to run a public health system. And you have a Secretary of Health and Human Services who has said that the CDC, he said, is the most corrupt agency in the history of the world. I mean, he's just given to hyperbole. He's given to conspiracy theory. And this is certainly not helpful.
You're right that, look, the pandemic was something we went through. Certainly, there are lessons to be learned, but he's fired all the world class scientists, the people who could help through this process. He's clearly unfit. He has no expertise, no credentials, which suggests that he should be standing at the helm of the CDC. But what's worse is his arrogance, his hubris, his sense that he knows better than the scientists, that he he's a better doctor than the doctors.
And that is literally killing our people in real time, for the very first time, we are seeing the deaths of children from measles. This is not necessary, and he is a threat to our health. He is demoralizing our CDC workers, who work so hard every single day. I was standing with many of them a few months ago, when they were experiencing these mass firings, they had to rehire many of them because they didn't understand what they were doing. And as I think about those workers who I stood with in the very place, by the way, where this awful gunman attacked the CDC just a few weeks ago, my heart goes out to them.
But they are American heroes who protect us every single day from things we don't see. And it is unfortunate that we are here, and I call on President Trump to fire Robert Kennedy.
COOPER: Senator Warnock, appreciate your time. Thank you very much.
Joining us from Washington, D.C. is Kara Swisher, host of "On and Pivot" podcast, and also author "Burn Book: A Tech Love Story." And here in New York, Van Jones, former Special Adviser President Obama, current CNN senior political commentator, Rahm Emanuel, former Obama White House Chief of Staff, Ambassador in Japan, and current CNN senior political and global affairs commentator. Ambassador watching that hearing, what do you --
RAHM EMANUEL, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: You know, here's a couple things: One, Peter Wells, Senator from Vermont had the comment about the Senate -- they didn't do their job. It was actually -- that was, we can sit here and talk about Robert Kennedy. In my view, the Senate was on trial, and they had failed, they all knew this. This is -- there's like that movie, the scene in "Casablanca," who knew there was gambling. You knew this guy was a skeptic. You knew he wasn't up to the job.
They voted for because they wanted immunization from Donald Trump, and now they're standing we used to call this holy pictures. That's what they were doing, these Republican senators. They were standing for holy pictures.
COOPER: Holy pictures.
EMANUEL: So they get they get blessed, because they actually did something in their own conscience. If there was a secret vote, Robert Kennedy never would have been confirmed. Hands down, everybody knows it. They were standing there to airbrush their record in history that they stood up and asked them tough questions. They knew this beforehand. This is nothing happening here today at CDC, NIH, the record on health care, most importantly, the cuts on mRNA. Nothing here surprises anybody. This is not a pop quiz.
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But very, very dangerous, I mean, the slogan is, Make America Healthy Again, and he's the main person making America sicker again and sicker for stuff that should have been in the history books, measles -- children dying of measles, the United States of America and more pandemics coming to kill our children, to kill our children.
[20:15:18]
Why? Because he has made up in his mind that he knows better, as the Senator said, than everybody in the world. And for him to be in a position that he's in -- that's a legendary last name. When you're a Kennedy people are going to listen to you. You have a responsibility, what's going to happen in Florida because of this mania that he started is a lot of children are going to die in Florida who should not die and he's responsible.
COOPER: Kara, I mean, how do you -- are you surprised by what you heard today from, from Kennedy?
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No, no. He's been saying it all along, if you pay any attention to him, for as I said, you know, from the from like, everything he does seems odd and strange, but he shouldn't be leading this, and he's unqualified to do so. I think the problem is he does tap into which Donald Trump just referred to there, is some feeling about the health care system, right, that something is off, and Donald Trump's using excuse, I want different ideas.
I don't think you want different ideas, though, from a man who is clearly unqualified. You know, he often says that he has misspoken, or it's not what he said. And I agree with Rahm, the Republican Senators deserve no credit here whatsoever. They were trying -- you know, Cassidy is a doctor. He knew better, and he's still doing it now.
He, of course, has regrets. I have a few, but it's too late. This guy has already done the damage, and it's going to take years and years to, if not a decade to fix what has been done here, if we ever get it back at all.
EMANUEL: You know, when COVID happened, China withheld from the world for about four weeks the information that was necessary. We now have in the United States, the Secretary of Health and Human Services withholding information, is holding research dollars for the mRNA that will give us a rapid response to the next pandemic. And the over, under on the next pandemic is huge. It's going to happen and he just tied America's hand behind its back.
COOPER: Well, there is a whole new class of potential vaccine, mRNA that --
EMANUEL: Yes, that you could do like this and warp speed won't be a one off, but it will be the more norm. China lied to the world. They held hearings about whether it happened in the market or whether it was happened at their research institution. Now, we have a Secretary of Health and Human Services who's leading the charge on lying and deception, and the Republican Senators knew this. That's why I, you know, I think Peter Welch said the most important thing, we failed as senators, this is on us.
JONES: I thought was so interesting too, that some of the Republicans were trying to get him to hang himself on the Operation Warp Speed. In other words, one of the most important things that President Trump did was a vaccine program called Operation Warp Speed. And so, the first thing he does is they could get him say, don't you think that Operation Warp Speed should get the President United States a Nobel Prize? And then Kennedy says, yes, and then spends the rest of the time undermining the entire thing the President --
COOPER: I mean, Kara, it is remarkable that the President is essentially undermining his own success on Operation Warp Speed.
SWISHER: Yes, there's a lot of people allegedly close to the President that think that vaccines do cause autism. That's one of the things that continues to sort of plague this. And they had it back and forth about that. I mean, one of the issues is this was an achievement by President Trump. Absolutely. I interviewed the creators of the mRNA vaccine at the time, and they, you know, it was made -- it was actually made for cancer. Interesting, and it's going back to looking at cancer research and stuff like that.
It could be a very remarkable thing for our whole world. And the problem is, is vaccines aren't perfect, neither is neither is any medical procedure. And what's happened here is it's set back the kind of research we need to do on these and figure out what's safe and what's not, because another group of people who didn't like the way it went, these anti-vaxxers, they've gone too far, and in Florida, I mean, I don't know about you, Anderson, I'm not bringing my kids to Florida anytime soon.
It's just -- the fact that their polio -- they're not going to have that. It's just -- it seems this was stuff we fought over a long time ago and solved and now they're trying to undo it.
COOPER: I mean, T.V. Dr. Oz went out on television yesterday and was like, oh yeah, no, it's great what they're doing in Florida. You know, parents care more about their kids. That should be up to parents to decide. Which I understand that argument. But there's other kids involved as well. It's not just one parent making decision for their child.
EMANUEL: The one other guy is a mayor. We had a public health, we used to get guidance from CDC, and that would go through the state. They'd also go directly to public health for big cities, small size, millions, all the cities. The idea that you can't trust what's coming out of Washington, which used to be the gold standard. --
COOPER: Well that --
EMANUEL: This is like, you're going to have 6,000 different public health.
[20:20:09]
COOPER: Look, this is to me part of a larger lack of design, lack of trust. I mean, you the message is, okay, you can't trust any of these CDC people. You can't trust the crime stats coming from any police department, because they're cooking the books.
EMANUEL: Labor.
COOPER: You can't trust the Bureau of Labor, so we're going to fire this person because these labor stats are going to get somebody in who gives us stats we want. We're going to live in a world where absolutely nothing will be believed, and then A.I. adds to it, where you can't believe any actual image you see is real.
EMANUEL: Character -- why --
SWISHER: That's the goal. It's the goal. That's the goal. Read Peter Thiel, read any of them when they talk about this, you know, democracy isn't working anymore, that kind of thing. And so, this is their goal, is to create lack of trust in these institutions so they can tear them down. That's the entire goal. If you actually go back and read a lot of them and with A.I. it creates a really bad situation. They're all having dinner at the White House right now. Six to 10 people decide A.I. that's what's incredible. A small group of homogeneous people decide a lot of stuff -- what's that's going to go on in our society going forward.
COOPER: Yes, we're going to get to that. We're going to take a break. Everybody's going to come back, we are going to get everybody's take on the what Kara just mentioned, this gathering at the White House tonight of tech CEOs, the A.I. oligarchs, after a meeting, including the First Lady of the White House Task Force on artificial intelligence education.
Also tonight, we have more breaking news. The President preparing to rename the Defense Department, and the Defense Secretary already on board with it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Thank you for traveling with the War Department."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:26:06]
COOPER: Just moments ago, White House dinner for tech executives, the President said something that casts a bright light on a recent firing of his. You'll remember, just a day after the July job numbers came out and were not to his liking, he got rid of the woman who ran the department responsible for gathering those numbers. Well, tonight, a month later, on the eve of the August report, he was asked this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Can you commit to saying the data will be credible?
TRUMP: So we're going to have to see what the number -- I don't know, they come out tomorrow, but the real numbers that I'm talking about are going to be whatever it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, sitting with him there, Microsoft founder Bill Gates, Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg, also on hand, Tim Cook of Apple, and the CEOs of OpenAI and Google.
Back now with the panel. So Kara, I mean, this event would have been the first held in the newly renovated Rose Garden. It was moved inside because of weather. I mean, I get what I mean, everybody is there. It's also transactional. I mean, everybody is there for a very specific reason.
SWISHER: Yes, they all want something, and they're all getting what they want. That's why they were at the Inauguration. You know, oddly enough, I found a story I wrote in 2016 or 15, actually, 10 years ago, calling them sheeple for showing up to Trump Tower, even though they disagree with him on a number of things, because they wanted tax breaks.
Everything is about money for these people and you know, they remain the same way there because the opportunity is there, because these passing rules around crypto or whatever they want, and they're getting it. And so they have to sit there and shake their head and hand them gold statues, like Tim Cook did, and just say how smart you are, sir. You know that kind of thing, because the A.I. thing is important, the government will be an important player in deciding the winners and losers.
COOPER: It's embarrassing -- I mean, it's embarrassing just watching, not just for these tech, you know, billionaires, but just how easy it is to, you know, you present a gift. You literally present a gift to the President, and he's happy,
EMANUEL: Yes, well go ahead, Van.
JONES: Look, I -- as a California Democrat, I have watched the technology sector go through this evolution. There was a time when you saw more backbone. Don't forget, Facebook took Trump off the platform after the insurrection, and then what you watched over a four-year period when the Biden administration, I think, probably a little bit too tough on our tech sector, but was trying to put some rules in place.
It wasn't just that they moved in terms of who they gave their money to. I watched an ideological drift to the right so that -- they're not contorting as much. Some of these people have actually become tried and true, hard core believers in a lot of this stuff. Of course, it helps, it helps with their economic agenda. But we have a big problem now.
Nobody elected these folks to be in charge of anything. And the future of the country used to be written in law in Washington, D.C. Now, it's being written in code, computer code in Silicon Valley, and we have no say so over except for a President who is more interested in getting gifts from them than putting them -- in having accountability from them.
EMANUEL: To the NSA. I don't know when the that video was, when the President did that, but you know, the night before the numbers come out, the President gets the numbers. He gets them. I think if I remember this correctly, around 6:30 at night, so he may already,--
COOPER: You said it to me.
EMANUEL: Yes, so he knows exactly what the numbers are going to be tomorrow. And the second point I'd make here is, you know, every one of those CEOs would sit there and tell you, rule of law makes America great. It's deep capital markets make our fundamental research institutions make America they have all lost. They are timid souls, as Roosevelt used to say those are timid souls in there, because, as Kara said, they're all going for their tax breaks.
They're all going for their little gift. They're a little special, cut out and they're sitting there, bow there. These are grown men and women. In of major, major companies in America who have principles in which those companies are built on, and they've decided now they have responsibility to shareholders, but they've decided to go on bended knee and everything that they would aspired and believed in, they have thrown out the window and as I use to say, they are firm in their opinion, it's their principles they are flexible on, and that's when they are dangerous.
[20:30:19]
COOPER: Well, Kara, I mean, that is an argument some --
SWISHER: Yes.
COOPER: -- of them might make, is there's -- they are responsible to their shareholders.
SWISHER: Yes, they have to.
COOPER: And this is good for their companies.
SWISHER: Well, that's what they do say. That's what they do say, and that's what's true. The problem is, is I think, you know, I was -- someone close to Apple was telling me, I don't think it is good for Apple to have not rule of law, right?
Ultimately, it's bad for shareholders to be unclear about things. Ultimately, having to give someone a statute in order to get a deal is kind of strange and very autocratic and feels like hungry or something, which is not exactly killing it in the tech department.
Innovation is based on the rule of law, it is. And, by the way, Van, I don't agree with you. I think they would shift -- I always make this joke, but if Kamala Harris had won, they would have called themselves they-them. They would have. They will do whatever it takes.
Once a Democrat gets in place, once a Democrat gets in place, if a Democrat gets in place, if, say, there's President Rahm Emanuel, they will be whatever Rahm wants, you know?
EMANUEL: Yes.
SWISHER: So it'll just be whatever.
EMANUEL: Whatever my mother wants.
SWISHER: They will, they'll shift. They are sheeple. They are sheeple. They are sheep people, and that's what they'll be until the end of time.
EMANUEL: But there's a reason, I mean, not only -- there's a reason here these companies exceeded in the United States, not somewhere else. There are five basic things, capital markets, rule of law, fundamental research, we're the magnet of the greatest talent in the world, and they're all willing to throw it out the window for this little gift, this little nod from the Justice Department or the White House.
And they do have a responsibility to shareholders, that is I want to emphasize. Undermining every one of those is not good for your shareholders, short-term, medium-term, or long-term.
COOPER: Well, Kara, also, I mean, you know, they're trying to avoid regulation of AI --
SWISHER: That's right.
COOPER: -- as much as possible. I mean --
SWISHER: I mean, they're doing great.
COOPER: They're -- you know, there are some --
SWISHER: They're doing great.
COOPER: There are some -- you know, there are some CEOs in AI who've talked about, you know, we would support some regulation, but a lot of the folks who are there are -- they don't want regulation.
SWISHER: Well, they want their regulation, you know? It's like, don't throw me in that briar patch, right? They want the regulation they want, and they want very little of it. And you just saw the ruling, Google, it was too -- you know, the reason Google -- the decision was made is because things have moved so quickly that search isn't where it's at, and so it doesn't hardly matter.
The problem is our country, and I would agree the Biden administration was a little too tough on tech. That said, they were moving in directions of at least a minor amount of regulation, and now it's a wild west. Look at the Trumps, they've made $5 billion in the past, what, 17 minutes with crypto? It's insane.
EMANUEL: Every one of those CEOs and every one of those companies will be giving money to the same universities that the administration is cutting back on resources. There'll be not-for-profits like Bill Gates, a major, he's done unbelievable work in the healthcare area and vaccine research.
You think any of them are going to bring it up? What happened today with Robert F. Kennedy? Not a chance. And I'm telling you, they are timid souls.
COOPER: I mean, Bill Gates, you know, to his credit --
EMANUEL: Great, great.
COOPER: -- has given away so much money --
EMANUEL: Yes.
COOPER: -- and saved the lives of so many millions of people around the world. I would -- I'm guessing, I don't know, I don't talk to him except in occasional interviews, but he is trying to save some --
EMANUEL: Millions, yes.
COOPER: -- foreign aid.
EMANUEL: Yes.
COOPER: He's trying to save some, you know --
EMANUEL: Yes.
COOPER: -- malaria program that he (INAUDIBLE).
EMANUEL: I don't mean to pull -- yes, go ahead, Van. Sorry.
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I hope he succeeds because one thing we don't talk about enough, there's 150,000 Africans who are dead right now because we pulled the plug on HIV. Obviously, Bill Gates has, you know, been standing in the breach on that for a long time. But he had a partner called PEPFAR, which is a bipartisan program signed by George W. Bush to stop Africans from dying.
The stuff --
COOPER: It saved like 20 million lives.
JONES: Yes, 20 million lives. And so part of the problem is I think people can get, you know, overwhelmed by the negativity of all this. But there's a reality is there are people dying. There are human beings in Africa who should be alive right now who are dead.
There are children in America who are going to be dead because people are bowing down and backing down from principles that should be defended, you know, and have been defended by our parents and our grandparents, even to the point of blood.
COOPER: Kara, First Lady Melania Trump is --
SWISHER: I think Bill Gates --
COOPER: Go ahead, go ahead.
SWISHER: Can I just say Bill Gates looked like he was in pain. Oh, I've spoken to him about it. He's trying to save these programs and he will do whatever it takes to do so. And so I'm going to give him a tiny out.
COOPER: Let me too.
SWISHER: He did look like he was in -- especially when Melania started talking about humanoid robots, whatever that was.
COOPER: Well, I was going to ask you that because she actually hosted a meeting of a White House task force on artificial intelligence in education.
SWISHER: Yes.
COOPER: I want to play something she said.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
MELANIA TRUMP, FIRST LADY: As leaders and parents, we must manage AI's growth responsibly. During this primitive stage, it is our duty to treat AI responsibly. During this primitive stage, it is our duty to treat AI as we would our own children, empowering but with watchful guidance.
[20:35:18]
COOPER: I saw what you wrote about that saying, you were imagining kind of what was going through the minds of all the AI folks sitting there.
SWISHER: Yes, not bubbles. Yes. I mean, it's fine. You know, can you imagine --
COOPER: I mean, good for her to bring it up.
SWISHER: -- with her comments during this like they go crazy. I guess, you know, except it wouldn't be nice if it was followed with actual regulation, but it won't be, right? What does that mean? Like, what is -- are we going to be able to sue these people? Are we going to be able to -- you know, just recently, New York Times had a great story about a ChatGPT and a kid that killed himself and it happened with character AI in Google.
You know, there's all kinds of things we could do and it would be great if Melania Trump understood that, what needs to be done. I just don't think she does.
JONES: Well, I am glad that she spoke out. I do think that the first lady does have a very powerful pulpit and I love it when they use it for good and she did -- she was using it for good today.
COOPER: Because, I mean, you know, the -- as somebody who has little kids --
JONES: Yes.
COOPER: -- it is terrifying this idea of what kind of world they're going to grow up in where you can't tell if anything's real or not.
JONES: Yes.
COOPER: And, you know, you can't tell if an image is real.
JONES: Yes, it's crazy.
COOPER: What does that do to society? We don't even know. It's an experiment.
EMANUEL: And that's why it shouldn't be left up to them because they're not driven by that public good. They're driven by --
JONES: Short-term prospects.
EMANUEL: The -- and I don't -- that's their, you know, their fundamentals. The responsibility of public service and the responsibility (ph) of government is to make sure that the private interests don't overwhelm the public interest. COOPER: Well --
EMANUEL: And they haven't done that, you know.
COOPER: I would also say their argument is, look, we are in a war, in a race against China to win the AI race and so --
SWISHER: Yes.
COOPER: -- therefore, we have to do this. But that does become the get-out-of-jail-free card for everything.
EMANUEL: No. Yes, but I will say this and, look, I used to walk in the Oval Office. I was 162 and I was 250 pounds. I am now 148 driven (ph). You know, your job is to say to somebody -- and the president wants their acknowledgement. They don't understand the power they have.
And I'm sorry, they have gone in there and there's something unique about America and they're willing not to speak up on it. And I have seen them before do it.
COOPER: Rahm Emanuel, Van Jones, Kara Swisher, always good to have you. Thank you.
Up next, we have more breaking news. President Trump going back in time preparing to name the Defense Department the Department of War. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:42:05]
COOPER: President Trump is expected to sign an executive order tomorrow renaming the Defense Department the Department of War. Tonight, after landing at Joint Base Andrews this evening, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth gave the new name a test drive.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Thank you for traveling with the War Department.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: Joining us for more on this is CNN Senior Political Commentator Adam Kinzinger. He's a former Republican congressman from Illinois, also a former Illinois Air Force and Air National Guard veteran. So Congressman, the administration signaled this was in the works (ph). What message do you think it sends?
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, I think ultimately it's a nothing burger, but it's like the words do matter. So Department of Defense actually seems to say this is as much as a war department. It's a department for telling people that we're going to defend our country for deterrence. The Department of Defense got its name, I think as part of the 1947 National Defense Act, actually changed its name in 1949. And so that was done by an act of Congress. So I, you know, maybe by executive order, he can say, hey, everybody in my administration will refer to it as the Department of War.
I'm not sure it can actually change to the Department of War without an act of Congress. By the way, Donald Trump dodged the draft. And it just feels like it's kind of an old man reminiscing about the days of old, you know, the Department of War and trying to cover for weakness. That's what it feels like to me.
COOPER: What do you think of the job Secretary Hegseth has been doing? I mean, he's talked about restoring a warrior ethos to the Armed Forces. He talks about that a lot in, you know, videos I've seen of him talking to troops. How do you think he's doing?
KINZINGER: Not good, not good. I mean, you know, I saw him doing pull- ups and he was doing reverse arms, which you're not supposed to do in the military. But, look, I mean, what -- he's basically a showman, right? He's trying to go out there and look tough, you know, working out with the troops, all this kind of stuff.
But, ultimately, we still remember Signalgate. Ultimately, they have fired, Anderson, just about every senior military leader in the military for being -- not even being critical of Donald Trump, for saying something that Donald Trump didn't realize he didn't like, you know, getting rid of the inspector generals.
This is going to come back, I think, to haunt the Department of Defense when ultimately you lose that ethics. And then not to even mention the strike on the boat that killed 11 people and whether or not that was legal.
COOPER: That -- you don't think that was legal? I mean, it's certainly not traditionally what the U.S. would have done in terms of trying to apprehend or just apprehending these people.
KINZINGER: Well, they claim that they got a legal memo. Now, keep in mind, again, a lot of their lawyers have been pushing out. I don't know if it's technically legal or not. I worry about where this is going.
I'm not -- I don't lose any sleep over the, you know, the drug mules that were killed in this.
[20:45:01]
It's interesting to me how there were 11 people on a cigarette boat that supposedly was just taking drugs. Either they were moving people, could have been involved with human trafficking, who knows. But I think there's a lot of questions that need to be asked.
COOPER: It is interesting because the military, the U.S. military, I mean, they have been involved in intelligence gathering and operations and some, you know, hunting Pablo Escobar, U.S. forces were, you know, intelligence forces were involved. There has always been concern about the U.S. military getting bogged down in a battle against Mexican or other drug cartels.
KINZINGER: Yes, and by the way, this is what I did when I was stateside in the military. We flew reconnaissance against drug trafficking organizations and then the Air Force in its infinite wisdom got rid of the plane. But, yes, I mean, this is a big -- executing a war again -- I don't think people are against, you know, the military being involved in some way against the cartels, but you do that in cooperation with the host nation.
We had a lot of success. One of the best success is the Green Berets, for instance, was in Colombia, building, you know, eventually a very strong government, but building the partner force to fight this war. Instead, it doesn't feel like there's partnerships being built. It feels like there's kind of this macho, we're just going to do it, we don't care what you think.
And ultimately, I got to tell you, the United States military is the best. It's amazing. Our intel's the best. It's amazing. But if you're trying to do this without the cooperation of the countries you're actually going into, I worry about what that leads to. But, look, I'm all for the military taking these folks on.
COOPER: Adam Kinzinger, thanks very much.
Just ahead, the Justice Department investigating mortgage fraud allegations against Fed Governor Lisa Cook. Now, a Trump Cabinet member is facing the same accusations.
And authorities in Portugal trying to determine the cause of a deadly crash on a historic cable car. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:51:26]
COOPER: The Trump administration is ramping up the pressure to get rid of Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook. Tonight, we've learned the Justice Department has launched an investigation to allegations of mortgage fraud against her that according to a person familiar with the matter.
Last week, President Trump said he was firing Cook after one of his political appointees accused her of falsely listing two different properties, each as a primary residence, trying to secure better mortgage rates. Up until now, no president has ever fired a Fed governor and Cook is fighting Mr. Trump's attempt to remove her. And critics accuse the President of trying to whittle away the Fed's independence.
CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig joins us. He's a former federal prosecutor and author of the new book, "When You Come at the King: Inside DOJ's Pursuit of the President from Nixon to Trump." So does the DOJ investigation seem legally justified or politically motivated or can it be both? ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think both of those are true, Anderson. There is no question there's a political motive. Just look at the timeline. Donald Trump spent much of the summer posting on social media and talking about how he wants to get rid of Fed governors who would not vote with him to lower interest rates.
While he's doing that, this guy, Bill Pulte, who had donated over a million dollars to Donald Trump's various political interests, then becomes the head of the Federal Housing Fraud Agency and launches these investigations into several high-profile Democrats, including Lisa Cook.
And then when Pulte makes his referral to DOJ public, Donald Trump, 30 minutes later, says, aha, now she's got to go. It's overtly political. However, at the same time, these allegations do appear substantial, more substantial than the allegations that have been made against Letitia James and Adam Schiff.
As you said, she took two different mortgages within two weeks of each other, claimed they were both primary or principal residences. There's a third residence where she said was a second home, but she was actually renting it out as an investment property. And the defenses we've heard from Lisa Cook's lawyer so far have been underwhelming, essentially saying, well, maybe there was a clerical error. So I do think both of those things are true.
COOPER: ProPublica is reporting tonight that President Trump's Labor Secretary had similar information on her mortgage application. She and the White House have denied any wrongdoing and they've attacked ProPublica. You read the reporting. Are the situations comparable?
HONIG: Well, they're similar. And I should say mortgage fraud is quite common. I mean, in the prosecutor's office, we prosecuted it all the time. It was a fairly mundane crime to go after. One of the things that Lisa Cook will argue if she does get charged criminally is something called selective prosecution.
She'll say, look, there were other people out there who did something very similar to what I did. They're not being prosecuted and I am, and it's for a political reason. The question then will be, how similar are they? A key factor here that I think cuts against Lisa Cook is she took these mortgages out in a very compressed timeframe.
Some of the people who are subject to that reporting took their mortgages out years apart. When it's more plausible, I'm not saying any of these people is guilty or not guilty, but there are some differences. But on the whole, there also are some similarities that will give Lisa Cook a way to argue that she's being singled out.
COOPER: All right, Elie Honig, thanks so much.
Coming up, at least 16 people, including at least one American, have been killed in a cable car crash in Portugal. We'll have the latest on that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [20:59:08]
COOPER: At least 16 people, including one American citizen, were killed yesterday in a cable car accident in Portugal. The vehicle is called a funicular and it derailed in Lisbon, sending one of its two cars careening down a street before crashing into a building. A witness described it as completely out of control and said it looked like a toy being thrown from side to side.
The other victims identified so far include five Portuguese citizens, two South Koreans, and one Swiss national. As authorities try to work to determine what caused the disaster, three days of mourning have been declared across Portugal.
From Portugal, we go to Italy. Today, the world lost a legend in the world of fashion. Italian designer Giorgio Armani has died. His company released a statement saying, Mr. Armani passed away peacefully, surrounded by his loved ones.
His career has been extraordinary and it spanned more than six decades. He began as a window dresser at a Milan department store in 1957. Nearly 20 years later, in 1975, he founded his brand that was named Giorgio Armani and he changed women's and men's fashion forever.
His company statement went on to say, "Today, with deep emotion, we feel the void left by the one who founded and nurtured this family with vision, passion, and dedication." Giorgio Armani was 91 years old.
That's it for us. The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.
