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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
ABC Yanks Jimmy Kimmel's Show "Indefinitely" After His Remarks About Charlie Kirk Suspect; Trump Celebrates ABC's Move to Pull Jimmy Kimmel Show Off the Air: "Great News for America"; ABC Drops "Jimmy Kimmel Live! Indefinitely Over Kirk Suspect Remarks; Trump Designates Antifa as a Terrorist Organization; Three Officers Killed in Shooting in Central Pennsylvania and Two Officers in Critical Condition, Suspect Dead. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired September 17, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ELIZABETH WAGMEISTER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: ... about Charlie Kirk's killer, this is a decade of Jimmy Kimmel bashing Trump. They've been going back and forth for years, so it's really hard to imagine Trump rolling out the red carpet and saying, hey, you've taken a break, why don't you come back on the air? So, that's where things stand right now but people just really shocked in Hollywood --Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Yes, really shocked in Hollywood, and I would imagine anyone across the country shocked by a development like this in this country.
Elizabeth, thank you so much for all of your reporting and thanks to all of you for being with us. AC360 starts now.
[20:00:35]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Good evening, thanks for joining us. We begin tonight with the breaking news. ABC, the network pulling Jimmy Kimmel from the air. A network spokesperson saying simply, "Jimmy Kimmel live will be preempted indefinitely."
The word came after at least one major affiliate group said it would not broadcast the show "for the foreseeable future." That group saying it, "strongly objects to recent comments made by Mr. Kimmel concerning the killing of Charlie Kirk." Now, here are the those comments from Monday's monologue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY KIMMEL, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE" HOST: We hit some new lows over the weekend, with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them, and doing everything they can to score political points from it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So that was Monday night. This is today. FCC Chairman Brendan Carr on a conservative commentator, Benny Johnson's podcast.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRENDAN CARR, FCC CHAIRMAN: You know, when you look at the conduct that has taken place by Jimmy Kimmel, it appears to be some of the sickest conduct possible. Obviously, there's calls for him to be fired. I think, you know, you could certainly see a path forward for suspension over this, and again, you know, the FCC is going to have remedies that we could look at.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: He called it the sickest conduct possible. Those comments by Jimmy Kimmel. He went on to say, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. These companies can find ways to change conduct and take actions on Kimmel, or there's going to be additional work for the FCC ahead.
Now, Chairman Carr is a Trump appointee, and the President has spent a good deal of his second term going after the big three networks. Here he is online, after CBS announced the impending cancellation of "The Late Show with Stephen Colbert." This is a quote from the President. "I absolutely love that, I absolutely love that Colbert got fired. His talent was even less in his ratings. I hear Jimmy Kimmel is next, has even less talent than Colbert. Greg Gutfeld is better than all of them combined, including the moron on NBC who ruined the once great "Tonight Show."
Then, a few weeks later, there was this "The word is, and its strong word that Jimmy Kimmel is next to go in the untalented late night sweepstakes, and shortly thereafter, Fallon will be gone. These are people with absolutely no talent who were paid millions of dollars for, in all cases, destroying what used to be great television. It's really good to see them go, and I hope I played a major part in it." Shortly after that, there was this on camera.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Fallon has no talent, Kimmel has no talent. They're next, they're going to be going. I hear they're going to be going, I don't know, but I would imagine because they get -- you know, Colbert has better ratings than Kimmel or Fallon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, just moments ago, the administration's rapid response media team posted this online, which reads, "They're doing their viewers a favor. Jimmy is a sick freak."
Joining us is CNN contributor and co-host of the "Pivot" podcast, Kara Swisher, T.V. and media reporter for "Los Angeles Times" Stephen Battaglio, former federal prosecutor and bestselling author Jeffrey Toobin, and CNN chief media analyst Brian Stelter. Brian, I want to start with you because you reached out to the FCC Chairman Carr. What did he tell you?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: I mean, he sent me the gift that we will put on screen, Anderson. It's a picture from the old NBC sitcom "The Office," the stars of "The Office" celebrating some ridiculous moment on the show. So, he is celebrating Disney's capitulation here. And I think we should step back and remember --
COOPER: Wait, hold on, wait. Wait a minute, Brian, we're putting this on the screen, and I just got -- you can't -- this is you -- you said this is a tweet you sent. I asked the FCC for response, and the chairman of the FCC sent you this video.
STELTER: Correct, I then replied, and I said, do you have anything quotable I can use? But let me give you the context of that, Anderson, Carr and I have been in touch for months, as I've been reporting on the FCC. He's been very aggressive about using the media to try to pressure companies like Disney. I remember he did this right before Christmas. He sent me a letter that he was sending to Bob Iger, the head of Disney, trying to pressure Disney over something else.
And earlier tonight, Carr texted me celebrating the fact that Nexstar, the station owner, as you mentioned, who had already pulled Kimmel, he was celebrating and thanking Nexstar for taking that action.
You know, Disney was the first company to capitulate to President Trump. Before Inauguration Day, Disney settled that ABC lawsuit in December, that moment emboldened Trump and his allies in this moment will embolden them again more.
COOPER: Kara Swisher what is your reaction to this?
[20:05:21]
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Brendan Carr is rather thirsty for attention, that's one thing. And its unbecoming of a public official but that's nothing new for him, this is what he does. I mean, I think one thing you're leaving out is Nexstar is trying to do a very large merger with TEGNA. And so, they will do whatever it takes to satisfy some, a kind of toady to Donald Trump.
COOPER: That's an important point because that merger would require the approval of the FCC, correct?
SWISHER: Correct, that's correct. And so, they're trying to do -- anything he can do to shake them down on behalf of Donald Trump. He's doing, which is including these people who are alleged free speech warriors, have turned out to be, you know, cancel culture fans.
And so, you know, Jimmy Kimmel also tweeted something out saying he was so sorry for this death and we should put aside our differences. He's a comic -- comics should be able to make jokes. I don't understand, you know, of all the people that should have free speech comics should absolutely have free speech. And so, this week has been sort of an object lesson that they never really cared about free speech. They just care about power. And that's what's happening here.
COOPER: Kara, I just want to put out, I want to read this statement, or at least part of the press release that Nexstar issued. They said, "Nexstar Media Group, Inc. today announced that the company's own and partner television station affiliate with the ABC television network will preempt 'Jimmy Kimmel Live' for the foreseeable future, beginning with tonight's show. Nexstar strongly objects to recent comments made by Mr. Kimmel concerning the killing of Charlie Kirk. We'll replace the show with other programming in its ABC affiliated markets. Mr. Kimmel's comments about the death of Mr. Kirk are offensive and insensitive at a critical time in our national political discourse, and we do not believe they reflect the spectrum of opinions, views or values of the local communities in which we are located. Continuing to give Mr. Kimmel a broadcast platform in the communities we serve is simply not in the public interest at the current time, and we've made the difficult decision to preempt the show."
That's the company you're talking about, which is wanting to do this merger.
SWISHER: That's correct, and they should have added and we would really like to do this merger. So, well do whatever it takes and then it flows uphill, and it's the opposite, it doesn't flow downhill. It flows uphill to ABC to Bob Iger who has obviously also suspended Kimmel.
And you know people do -- this happens in companies all the time where people say things and they get fired and this and that. But in this case, it's really a sensitive issue around free speech and comics and others being able to say what they want. And if this week has been anything, it's proof that free speech meant nothing to these people. And this was not their main concern, what their main concern was about was control of media and this is yet another step and they will continue to do so, including the lawsuit against "The New York Times," the lawsuit against some publishing houses and it follows universities and law firms. It's a textbook autocratic takeover.
COOPER: I should point out. President Trump has just now put something on his social media saying, and I quote, "Great news for America. The ratings challenged 'Jimmy Kimmel Show' was canceled. Congratulations to ABC for finally having the courage to do what had to be done. Kimmel has zero talent and worse ratings than even Colbert, if that's possible, that leaves Jimmy and Seth two total losers on fake NBC. Their ratings are also horrible. Do it NBC. President DJT."
COOPER: Jeff Toobin, I mean, what do you -- have we seen anything like this?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, AMERICAN LAWYER AND AUTHOR: No, we haven't, but I think it's important to draw a distinction here. You know, the private companies are not covered by the First Amendment. You know, if ABC wants to fire Jimmy Kimmel or anyone else, that's their business and the First Amendment doesn't guarantee anyone a place on late night television.
The problem here is what's going on with the FCC and Carr, who is obviously trying to put pressure on ABC to get to get rid of Kimmel and that's completely improper. You know, whether what he has done crossed the line to a violation of the First Amendment, I don't know. I mean, the facts are changing every few minutes, but the chilling part of this story is what the Trump administration in general is doing with regard to the media. It is using its power, often in the case of regulating mergers and the business aspects of what these companies do in a way to extort these companies to toe the line -- fire Jimmy Kimmel, crack down on "60 Minutes," force, you know, a payment of damages for something George Stephanopoulos said that never should have resulted in a lawsuit.
All of this is the government taking action against private companies for speech. And that's really about -- that implicates the First Amendment.
COOPER: Also, we had the President, you know, essentially threatening, I don't know, threatening is the right word, but going after Jonathan Karl and ABC just, I think it was yesterday, I don't know if we have that video, ready to cue up but in which he talked about the settlement that ABC gave him. He repeatedly said, look, they paid me $16 million, so let's play that.
[20:10:36]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARR: You know, when you look at the conduct that has taken place by Jimmy Kimmel it appears to be some of the --
JONATHAN KARL, ABC NEWS: What do you make of Pam Bondi saying she's going to go after hate speech? Is that, I mean, a lot of people, a lot of your allies say hate speech is free speech.
TRUMP: We'll probably go after people like you because you treat me so unfairly. It's hate, you have a lot of hate in your heart. Maybe they'll come after ABC. Well, ABC paid me $16 million recently for a form of hate speech. Right? Your company paid me $16 million for a form of hate speech. So, maybe they'll have to go after you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TOOBIN: It's a perfect illustration of what happens when you capitulate once, you invite more capitulation again.
COOPER: Stephen, I mean, have you ever seen anything like this?
STEPHEN BATTAGLIO, T.V. AND MEDIA REPORTER, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": I mean, you really have to wonder about the future of broadcast television because of this. It its unprecedented and it's because this is an industry that is dependent on regulation, on government regulation. They get licenses to use the public airwaves and now they're beholden to the government.
COOPER: It's also -- the corporations which own, you know, increasingly its large corporations which own this, which are particularly vulnerable.
BATTAGLIO: Well, that's why Brendan Carr realizes that's a pressure point, because T.V. station group owners like Nexstar, the largest one in the country, they are desperate for consolidation. Right now, they're limited to reaching 39 percent of the country. But, you know, tech companies can reach everybody everywhere. They feel that's unfair. They want to consolidate. They want more stations. And it's the FCC who decides that, Nexstar has to deal with to buy TEGNA.
And certainly ABC is probably looking at its options in terms of combining stations, swapping stations, buying more stations. They all want to do this. They all need FCC approval and that's a key reason why you're seeing this.
TOOBIN: But it's not just broadcast television, it's all of media, including cable, for example. I mean, remember back in the first Trump administration when AT&T tried to buy, you know, was buying Time Warner, the parent company of CNN, the Trump administration challenged that. So, the Trump administration and any administration has tremendous tools to use if they want to punish, broadcasters or any kind of news organizations if they want to use that power. And here we have them using that power over and over again.
COOPER: Kara, it's so interesting because for so long we heard from conservatives and Republicans about liberal cancel culture and how awful it was. I mean, is this the Trump administration embracing the cancel culture that so many conservatives, you know, pointed to as, as a problem?
SWISHER: Either they were not telling the truth then or they're not telling the truth now, I don't know, which time was it -- of course not, they're using it as a position of power, which is -- And absolutely right, there's consolidation that's necessary in order for these networks, which have been losing audience to survive. But unfortunately, they are beholden to people like Brendan Carr who saying we can do it the easy way or the hard way. Only a 12-year-old would speak like that, by the way. And, you know, that's not how a government official does. They're supposed to make these decisions in the public interest, and in this case, Brendan Carr is making them in the Trump administration's interest.
And this free speech nonsense is they don't have to, you know, it is a virtue, it is an actual virtue. And you're right, companies can fire people, but the government should not be able to apply this much pressure to companies. But it extends to Tim Cook giving a golden statue to Donald Trump in order to get tariffs lower. It's just -- it's an extortion culture and that's what's happening here. If things -- critics they don't like and over at Fox news, one of the broadcasters said something really offensive about homeless people and got off with an apology or whatever. Where is the FCC in those things? Like, and that's the problem here is it's not equally applied. It's only to critics of whom Donald Trump, apparently programmer in chief wants offer on the air and that that will extend that will extend to CNN, it will extend to everywhere, and they will continue until someone stops them or there's another election.
COOPER: Brian Stelter, you called this Orbanism. Can you explain that?
STELTER: Well, in Hungary, Viktor Orban did many of the same things that we're now seeing the Trump administration do. Orban weakened public broadcasting, he muzzled independent media through autocratic carrots and sticks, and he incentivized the owners to fall in line. And that's exactly what we're seeing in the United States.
Now, of course, this is widely being denounced by First Amendment groups and Free Expression groups, tonight, Anderson, those are the exact same groups that were busy yesterday condemning Trumps lawsuit against "The New York Times." We're also hearing from Democratic politicians condemning this. But as Kara says, this will continue unless people in power are able to stop it.
[20:15:39]
COOPER: Well, I just want to just, you know, play again what it was that Jimmy Kimmel said, which, you know, was, according to the FCC chairman, was the sickest conduct possible. Let's play that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIMMEL: We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: He's essentially saying that, MAGA supporters were trying to prove that the killer was not one of their own, and that they were trying to score political points. It can be -- it's maybe its offensive, maybe it's you disagree with it, but it's, I mean, it's not --
TOOBIN: It's also not, it's not wrong. I mean, this is a major event in American life, as always, people on both sides are trying to take political advantage of what happened here. I mean, you could say comedy, I mean, I mean it's just --
COOPER: You could say the leftist are focused on proving that the killer was not a leftist, and that would be equally accurate, if this is accurate.
TOOBIN: This is, I mean, of all things, to be offended by, you know, I've heard a lot more offensive things said in the aftermath of this terrible, awful event than that. And it just shows they are looking for reasons to get Jimmy Kimmel and they manufactured one out of something that is, you know, hardly a dramatic departure from what lots of people are saying.
BATTAGLIO: I mean, I reached out to ABC earlier today to see if he was going to make some sort of statement because this thing was building heat throughout the day. And you think he would have just addressed it at the top of the show and, you know, said, maybe I got in over my skis or something.
I mean, so it's an incredibly rash and the same thing with Colbert. They canceled the show because it was losing money. Did anybody sit down with him and say, hey, is there a cheaper way to do this? That conversation never took place, they're acting first and thinking about it later. COOPER: And Brian, I mean, Fox News has characterized this as Jimmy Kimmel suggesting that the suspect accused of Charlie Kirk was MAGA. I mean, I don't know, is that your reading of what he's saying? Because it sounds, I mean, it sounds like he's saying that MAGA supporters are focused on proving that the killer was not one of their own and trying to score political points --Brian Stelter. I think we lost Brian Stelter.
STELTER: I'm sorry. I'm sorry about that, Anderson.
COOPER: No, it's all right. I was just saying --
STELTER: I would say that because this was in the you know, President Trump has been wanting Kimmel off the air for months. You know, this is one of those Occam's razor situations where the pressure had been on Kimmel. The show knew it, the producers knew it. They were well aware of this pressure. And ultimately, Disney, one of the biggest media companies in the world, right -- operating theme parks and cruise ships, all of it. They're going to have to say a lot more than the one sentence statement they've put out so far.
COOPER: Yes. And the question, of course, what effect does this have on what else we see on television? Where does this end. And, what does I mean, you know, these are all -- you know, Stephen Colbert is an incredibly talented and decent person. He will end up doing something interesting somewhere else, perhaps in a digital space where --
BATTAGLIO: I really think media companies are going to think about getting out of the broadcast T.V. business.
COOPER: Do you think so?
BATTAGLIO: Yes, and just and just go to streaming and say, the hell with this. This is becoming too difficult to navigate.
TOOBIN: But you can't hide from the government, streaming. They have tremendous business interests. We're here at cable news. We have a part, you know, we're part of a big company that has a lot of interactions with the government. There is no part of the media universe that can say, we don't care if we are harassed by the government and that's the problem with having a government that doesn't care about the First Amendment.
BATTAGLIO: But this is one segment that is really, I mean, where the government just really has them by the short hairs in a way that --
COOPER: What is unique here is that the administration is willing to pull levers which have never been pulled before. We saw this with the law firms. We saw this with the universities. This is this is --
BATTAGLIO: I mean, Nixon talked about this in the 60s, about pulling -- he talked -- and networks reacted. They took the Smothers Brothers off the air in 1969 because of the amount of antiwar content that they were running during Vietnam. So, it's not unprecedented for these guys to run scared. COOPER: Everyone stay with us. We've got a lot more ahead of our breaking news. ABC taking Jimmy Kimmel show off the air indefinitely over his comments about Charlie Kirk's -- about what he said was the MAGA world reaction in the wake of Charlie Kirk's killing.
[20:20:49]
More breaking news tonight. Also, three police officers killed, two more badly wounded in Rural Central Pennsylvania while attempting to make an arrest. We'll have more of that as the latest details are coming in.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:25:23]
COOPER: We continue to cover the breaking news tonight. ABC pulling Jimmy Kimmel show off the air after comments he made about Charlie Kirk's or the reaction in what he said was the reaction in MAGA world to in the wake of Charlie Kirk's killing. I just want to play a fuller version of what he said in his monologue on Monday night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIMMEL: We hit some new lows over the weekend, with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them, and doing everything they can to score political points from it. In between the finger pointing, there was grieving. On Friday, the White House flew the flags at half-staff, which got some criticism. But on a human level, you can see how hard the President is taking this.
REPORTER: My condolences on the loss of your friend Charlie Kirk. May I ask, sir, personally, how are you holding up over the last day and a half, sir.
TRUMP: I think very good and by the way, right there, you see all the trucks? They've just started construction of the new ballroom for the White House, which is something they've been trying to get, as you know, for about 150 years. And it's going to be a beauty.
KIMMEL: Yes, he's at the fourth stage of grief, construction -- demolition, construction. This is not how an adult grieves the murder of someone he called a friend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Again, here's how FCC Chair Brendan Carr responded today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARR: You know, when you look at the conduct that has taken place by Jimmy Kimmel, it appears to be some of the sickest conduct possible. Obviously, there's calls for him to be fired. I think, you know, you could certainly see a path forward for suspension over this. And again, you know, the FCC is going to have remedies that we could look at.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Back with us now, Kara Swisher, Stephen Battaglio, Jeff Toobin, also joining us, CNN senior political and global affairs commentator Rahm Emanuel.
Kara, I just want to start with you. Where do you think this goes? I mean, you know who's next and what can be done about it?
SWISHER: Well, NBC, obviously, he named NBC. I mean, he sort of puts the map out for what he's going to do. And he had done this with Kimmel. You know, I think one of the issues is what exactly did Jimmy Kimmel do wrong? I think a lot of journalists should focus in on Bob Iger at ABC, someone who owns -- who is running Disney. This will be a real tarnish on his reputation, someone I admire very much. But in this case, it's really astonishing that executives like him are bending a knee and that's precisely what he's doing or being silent about this.
He needs to explain himself or at least in a much more, full way. Probably next is NBC. Certainly, you know, CNN is under the crosshairs would be my guess. And obviously, there's been some discussion about Paramount and Larry Ellison, who's going to get control of TikTok, also buying Warner.
You know, this is a consolidation of Trump leaning owners also. And that's -- that'll have some impact. These people can do whatever they want with these private companies. And again, this is an autocrat's playbook of controlling the media, or at least bringing it into line with, with the administration.
COOPER: I want to bring in, Rahm Emanuel, actually, yes. Well, actually, joining us on the phone right now is Harvard law professor and First Amendment attorney, Rebecca Tushnet. Rebecca, I appreciate you being with us. What -- from a First Amendment standpoint, what stands -- what is what is your concern here?
REBECCA TUSHNET, FIRST AMENDMENT ATTORNEY: Well, it's kind of shocking to have the head of the FCC saying there's the easy way or the hard way that that they can comply with the administrations priorities or else -- that's the definition of government pressure to stifle speech. And it is reflective of a huge problem in this country, which is in part, media consolidation, because unfortunately, ABC has favors he wants to ask from the government, and so, it thinks it has to go along.
COOPER: And as do many companies, I mean that that is what now this consolidation, the corporate ownership has -- it's set up this system that is very vulnerable to an administration who wants to pull these levers.
BATTAGLIO: I think that one reason why Comcast is spinning off MSNBC is because they did not want the heat from that coming at them as they try to make deals. And so, that's why they wanted to separate it from NBC News. COOPER: I want to bring in ambassador Rahm Emanuel. Rahm, I'm wondering what you thought when you heard this news and what happens now?
RAHM EMMANUEL, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, Anderson, he's had -- he's gone after Kimmel because he said he was going to do it. I agree with others that NBC should watch because he's doing it. He sued "The "New York Times"" this week. He sued "The Wall Street Journal" back in July. He's taken on "60 Minutes" and make them change the way they cover news and it all starts with ABC paying $16 million over George Stephanopoulos, kind of basically grace money.
And they're not going to stop until they're stopped and anybody that thinks they're going to actually wake up one morning and change different, I really believe when you start going into this area and I think about both the midterm elections and I think about where the public is, I'm not -- this is not going to work where well, with what I think are independent or swing voters, an unchecked unhinged Donald Trump. They are uncomfortable with this. And
this is now touching popular culture.
I think the other thing I would say is, I think Lenny Bruce and George Carlin are rolling over their grave, given the comedian -- this is like we're back to the future where you have comedians being attacked by the government, trying to silence them when they basically say something those in power don't like. That is really what happened here. Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert or whoever said something, or the journalist from Australia said something that people in power didn't like.
I can't tell you how many times as a chief of staff or senior adviser of President Clinton, there were times what these guys on late nights said, nobody liked it, but nobody thought about using government power to silence them and get them fired. And these are, as Kara said, the leaders in corporate media, very timid souls, weak, pathetic souls.
COOPER: Professor, has there ever been a time in modern history besides, I guess, the Nixon administration when a presidential administration was so overtly critical of speech on broadcast television to the point of threatening licenses?
REBECCA TUSHNET, FIRST AMENDMENT LAWYER (via telephone): Well, so Nixon is the obvious comparison. There's also, of course, the red scare where people were driven out of Hollywood and out of government for basically being too lefty, too feminist, and not for nothing. It was a purge at that time that targeted mainly women, queer people. So, history doesn't repeat itself; it does rhyme. And the thing that's kind of shocking is we have the legal apparatus to fight back against this. People who fight back are winning. And the problem we have is massive unwillingness by, I think, yes, people who turn out to be very weak. They turn out not to believe in the things that they said they believed in. And ordinary Americans are doing so much better in terms of standing up for the rights of their communities.
COOPER: Professor, I mean, what's so interesting is we -- sorry, Rahm, go ahead.
EMANUEL: I think the two points I want to cite that the professor just said, one is that he -- Donald Trump was trained by Roy Cohn, who is Joe McCarthy's hatchet man. And the second is corporate America has been intimidated, Republican members of House and Senate have been intimidated, the Supreme Court has been intimidated. A shout out to the American people. They're the only ones that aren't buying this. They're the ones that actually have Donald Trump in the negative territory.
Why he wants to do redistricting of the mid cycle is because he's worried about their judgment and their verdict. And the American people are actually the thin blue line that Donald Trump is very scared of because they have issued a judgment at this point about his presidency, and they see it as basically a failure. And he's trying to change the rules because he is scared of that. They are the only ones with the courage.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Can we just go back just for one more moment to talk about what was the comment that got Jimmy Kimmel in trouble? It was not about the murder.
COOPER: Yeah.
TOOBIN: It was about criticize -- he was criticizing, he was mocking the president and the president's political movement, MAGA. So what we have here is the administration cracking down on someone for criticizing them, which is much worse than the government cracking down for some sort of offensive conduct relating to good taste. This is about criticism of the administration that is getting the network in trouble. And that's a much more sinister (inaudible).
COOPER: Let's just play the line again so that viewers hear what Jeff was talking about.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST OF "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE!", ABC NEWS: We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them, and doing everything they can to score political points from it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: David Axelrod, I mean, you're just joining us. What did you think when you heard this?
DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: I thought that it's consistent with what we've seen brewing for some time.
[20:35:00]
We saw it when Stephen Colbert -- when Stephen Colbert was canceled. But also, and you guys have been touching on all of this. The really insidious thing and dangerous thing about this is, if you have a president and apparatus (ph) around him are willing to use every lever of power that they have to coerce cooperation with them and their political project, then you're no longer really functioning as a democracy should function.
They believe that free speech is -- means you're free to say what we want you to say. And if you say what we don't want you to say, we're going to come after you, and we're going to use every tool, regulatory, the justice department, federal contracting, every piece of it, threatening your law (ph) clients if you don't -- if you don't toe the line. And it was said earlier, someone said that it was urbanism (ph) and I've said, we've gone from zero to Hungary (ph) faster than anybody ever could imagine.
And people need to really consider what this means because they may like Donald Trump and they may think this is OK because he is imposing my view on a comedian or whatever it is. But just remember, he's not going to be there forever. And so, is this -- we have these rules for a reason. And it's to protect the commonwealth, the country, the republic from the overweening influence of one person over -- and that's what we'll be celebrating next year, ostensibly. And that is all at under threat right now. That's what I thought when I saw that news.
COOPER: You know, and Kara, I mean, we heard from Stephen Miller on that podcast with J.D. Vance issuing, I mean, what sounded like --
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yeah.
COOPER: -- very dire warnings about going after unnamed, you know everybody who --
SWISHER: Yeah.
COOPER: -- it seems they have a problem with.
SWISHER: Yeah. Who he doesn't like, which is a lot of people because he's super unpleasant person. But one of the things that's important to keep in mind is there's a lot of independent stuff going on right now. There's a lot of technology that allows people to reach people without these corporations. I mean, it's one of the reasons I left all the corporations, because there's a lot of places where people can speak, even if it's a noisy atmosphere for a lot of the media. There's all these amazing independent media companies starting, there's all these places it's a little harder to catch. And each one of those places like Hungary (ph), those things do happen. Independent media and other voices do rise up, including the voters.
And so they can try to keep it in this old system. What they're attacking are old businesses that are already dying, by the way. They cannot -- you can't stop the change that's happening in media. And Donald Trump, who grew up in the old era, cannot stop what's happening. He can try, but there's so many amazing voices on the internet, on YouTube, on all kinds of things, and many I don't agree with by the way, but they're there and they are speaking whatever truth they want to and it's going to be a lot harder to stop that. They won't. In the end, they will not be able to stop it, I think. BATTAGLIO: A big winner tonight is Substack.
EMANUEL: And there is a --
COOPER: Substack. Yeah, Rahm, go ahead.
EMANUEL: I was going to say, you know, the -- obviously, the irony here, the split screen here is whatever you want to say about Charlie Kirk's views, which I don't support, he did believe in the ethos of both open debate. He went to college campuses and he believed in persuasion as the way to work. And these guys are using, obviously, what is a horrible thing that happened, which was he was murdered for his views, but he believed in the system of debate and they are doing exactly the opposite in his name, which is to shut down any debate. And that's what's really not, I mean, what's cruel here and what is a horrible hoax, is in the name of Charlie Kirk, they're doing the very opposite of what actually was the spirit of his life and his effort.
Not that I agreed with anything he said, but he went places, he talked, debated, discussed, argued because he believed in one premise, the art of persuasion, which is the fundamental kind of premise of what our political debate is about.
COOPER: Yeah. Everyone stick around if you can.
EMANUEL: -- and culture.
COOPER: Coming up, more reaction to ABC's decision to pull Jimmy Kimmel show off the air indefinitely, Congressman Dan Goldman joins us ahead.
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[20:44:11]
COOPER: We'll continue to get reaction to ABC's decision to pull Jimmy Kimmel's show off the air. We're joined now by New York Democratic Congressman, Dan Goldman. Congressman, what do you make of ABC taking this decision?
REP. DANIEL GOLDMAN, (D-NY) JUDICIARY & HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEES: it is absolutely outrageous, Anderson, and I don't know who infuriates me more, the Trump administration and Brendan Carr for so blatantly threatening a company with their license based on very, very obvious First Amendment protected speech, or the companies that continue to cave to this completely improper behavior. And we saw it with ABC when they settled. We saw it with CBS. We now see it again with ABC. We've seen it with the tech companies.
[20:45:00]
We've seen it with law firms. Donald Trump is a bully. He is a want- to-be mob boss who will push the envelope to the end of the earth, and he ignores the law. He does not believe the law or the Constitution applies to him. And the problem is that everyone is cowing to him. It is completely inappropriate what Brendan Carr said and did. And it is also inappropriate that ABC and Nexstar followed. And the reality that they would -- they would cower to these threats that are such an obvious breach of the First Amendment, when the First Amendment protects the media, is incredibly disappointing.
COOPER: I don't know if you saw the reaction -- the response that Brendan Carr, the Chairman of the FCC, gave to Brian Stelter when Brian Stelter asked him for a reaction or response to ABC's pulling Kimmel off the air. We're putting it on the screen. It's a meme. It's from the office. I mean, it's a joke. And that's -- that was the actual response by the chairman of the FCC.
GOLDMAN: Yeah. And Donald Trump made it very clear as well in his own social media post at 1:00 a.m. from England that this was his goal all along. He has the thinnest skin of anyone in America, much less a politician. He cannot take one bit of criticism. And when there is any criticism, he goes after those people one way or another, whether it's through a primary threat if you're a politician, or it's to shut them up if you are a media -- a media personality.
And the irony here, Anderson, is I stand in the Capitol, is that we have spent years with the House Republicans, especially waxing on about the censorship by Joe Biden on social media platforms, going on about how COVID -- the social media platforms suppressed COVID information, and they became these free speech absolutists only though when the speech is to their liking. And that is exactly what is barred by the First Amendment.
I hope Jimmy Kimmel sues the heck out of everyone. But more importantly, I hope America wakes up to see what is going on. This is a coordinated attack on our fundamental values, the rights that are in the Constitution, and everything that we stand for. And it's using the DOJ with Chris Krebs and Miles Taylor. It's using the threat of not approving a merger or of taking a broadcast license away, and it cannot be allowed anymore. And it's got to come from the people. The American people need to recognize what's going on and rise up and object to this.
COOPER: And just finally, Congressman, I don't know if you know this, but I've just seen that the president on a social media post -- on his social media, has announced I'm pleased to inform our many USA patriots that I'm designating Antifa, a Sikh dangerous radical left organization, as a major terrorist organization. I'll also be strongly recommending that those funding Antifa be thoroughly investigated in accordance with the highest legal standards and practices. Your reaction?
GOLDMAN: Well, I hope he can first define what Antifa is because there is no Antifa organization. So, maybe that's good for social media, but it really has -- is non-existent. But the point is that he's using the Charlie Kirk murder as a pretext to go after people that he disagrees with. He on the very night of Kirk's murder, you will remember, accused the left of committing the murder when the murder had not even been caught or identified. This is all a pretext and it is a shame, I think as Rahm said, that Charlie Kirk actually stood for free speech and instead, they're using his memory to attack free speech. COOPER: Congressman Dan Goldman, thank you for being with us. I want to go back with our panel. On the phone, joining us is also is CNN's Senior Political Commentator Van Jones. Van, your thoughts?
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR (via telephone): This is a major moment in American history. This is a crossing of the Rubicon. And I think everybody should take this very, very seriously. For ABC to capitulate preemptively is handing power to the president he does not have.
[20:50:00]
The proper course is to tell the FCC we'll see you in court if you take anybody's license. We are not going to be bullied or intimidated. Any media organization in the world stands up to government threats. They don't roll over and show their tummy and that's not why you have a license in the first place. You have a license in the first place to help exercise the First Amendment, not to be a part of crushing it. ABC should be ashamed. The leadership of Disney should immediately reverse this.
And -- but Americans around the -- the president said something about patriots. No patriots, no constitutional conservative, no one who believes in our system, those founders themselves would be appalled by the behavior of Donald Trump. The behavior of this, the bureaucrat, they don't (ph) like bureaucrats. A bureaucrat just shut down an American company's ability to make its own decisions. That's a lot closer to an authoritarian or even a communist regime than something that the conservatives should be embracing.
This has -- Charlie Kirk would be on his podcast tomorrow morning saying this is an outrage and it's wrong. It's completely un-American. But this is a crossing of the Rubicon, and I think people should take this very, very seriously.
COOPER: David Axelrod, do you believe that, that this is sort of an inflection point or a crossing of the Rubicon as Van says?
AXELROD: Well, we've had -- we've had several, but this moment seems very important for the reasons that have that -- that Van mentioned, the Congressman mentioned. It's not just about this issue. And this is a very serious issue because the FCC chair, who's acting like a thug, a minor mafia figure here, threatening people. And they say, well, we're going to decide whether a network is acting in the public interest. I guess, whether a particular program is in the public interest and we will decide what that public interest is. That is what happens in authoritarian states.
But the point that Dan Goldman made at the end is really important. I think we owe it to the president, we owe it to the people around him to take him seriously. He's been saying not just before -- but before -- since the Kirk assassination, but before it, that he was going to go after say George Soros because he said he was funding agitators. And this thing tonight, this post should not be dismissed because what it means is he will define, just as they will define the public interest, they will define what is Antifa and they will go after everyone and everything that they put under that umbrella, even though it isn't an organization.
It is in many ways mythology. But it gives them a pretext to go after their political enemies. And Rahm said, Kara said, well, voters have a say. They do have a say, but this is going to be a major effort to try and defund any opposition in this country by doing it under this rubric of Antifa and the radical left. I think this is an inflection moment. So, it's quite concerning.
COOPER: David Axelrod, everyone, thank you. We have more breaking news tonight. A deadly shooting in Pennsylvania. Three police officers were killed, two were wounded, and we want to tell you about that. We'll be right back.
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[20:58:06]
COOPER: We have more Breaking News tonight. Three police officers killed, two remain in critical condition but stable after a shooting this afternoon. It happened at a rural part of York County, about two hours west of Philadelphia. Law enforcement sources say the officers were on their way to arrest the shooter, when shots were fired. Officials say the suspect is dead after being killed by police. Our Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst, John Miller, joins us now. So, what else have you learned about what happened? And it's just awful.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, we've been gathering string on this since this terrible occurrence with three officers dead, two others wounded. The question is what brought them to this farmhouse in the middle of this rural area? The dead man who is -- has not been identified by authorities, but were aware of his identity. These charges were filed today and this involves stalking repeatedly, criminal acts to cause fear, loitering and prowling at night, criminal trespass, simple trespass.
COOPER: So, were they going to kind of apprehend him?
MILLER: They were going to arrest him on these charges. Now, we were also told from our affiliate that neighbors said that the family had moved out a couple of days ago. So, it seems something has been building in the domestic situation around that house. Police were coming to arrest him today. But if you look at that scene, there's a long road that leads up to it and a long driveway that leads down to the house. In other words, if you're waiting, laying in wait for the police --
COOPER: You could see the police come in.
MILLER: From a long way away.
COOPER: Wow.
MILLER: It appears from the -- from the idea that the officers showed up with the arrest team and the shooting started so fast, he may have been expecting them and this may have been an ambush, but we're still waiting for more information.
COOPER: Well, would officers have come in force? Would they have, I mean, based on those allegations, how would they -- what would the posture be?
MILLER: So, I mean, the posture with five officers mean they came with an arrest team and a backup team, in case they had to cover the front and the back. It's pretty standard when they're going for arrest, even if they're misdemeanor charges, which there was. But it also is a reminder, especially with a --
