Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Jimmy Kimmel's Show Set To Return Tuesday Night; Disney: Kimmel's Comments "Were Ill-Timed And Thus Insensitive;" Trump To Pregnant Women Who Want To Take Tylenol: "Tough It Out"; WH Confirms DOJ Closed Probe Into Homan, Denies He Took Bag Of Cash; Trump Calls On AG Bondi To Prosecute His Political Opponents; Uvalde Teacher Exonerated By Video Obtained By CNN; Man Linked To "Tiger King" Mauled To Death By Tiger; Cost Of Taking Kimmel Off The Air. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired September 22, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Closing arguments begin at 9:00 A.M. Each side gets about an hour and 45 minutes, including rebuttal, and then deliberations will begin and if convicted, Erin, he is facing life in prison.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Really fascinating, Randi. Fascinating to see his daughter and how she is handling it as well. Thank you very much. Randi Kaye, with all of that reporting. And thanks so much to all of you, as always, for being with us. Thanks for joining us. AC360 starts now.
[20:00:29]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, late-night Jimmy Kimmel is going back on the air while we're learning about what went into that decision, what his show's revival means, and the President's running battle with late night mockery.
Also tonight, fallout from the stunning report that Tom Homan, the administration's deportation czar, was caught on tape literally holding the bag, a fast food bag with $50,000.00 in FBI sting money in it.
And later, the President rolls out new recommendations on Tylenol, vaccines and autism. But should pregnant women with fevers just tough it out, as the President suggested. We'll be joined by a vaccine researcher whose daughter lives with autism.
Good evening, thanks for joining us. We begin tonight with Jimmy Kimmel's return to the air. Tomorrow night. It's going to happen after six days off. What ABC had said was indefinite suspension over comments he made Monday night in the wake of Charlie Kirk's murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY KIMMEL, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE" HOST: We hit some new lows over the weekend, with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them, and doing everything they can to score political points from it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, that was last Monday night. By Wednesday, under pressure, as you know, from two large affiliate groups and criticism from FCC chairman Brendan Carr, ABC pulled the plug on Kimmel.
Today, however, this afternoon, Disney announced Kimmel was coming back without much in the way of elaboration. This is their statement: "Last Wednesday, we made the decision to suspend production on the show to avoid further inflaming a tense situation at an emotional moment for our country. It is a decision we made because we felt some of the comments were ill-timed and thus insensitive. We've spent the last days having thoughtful conversations with Jimmy, and after those conversations, we reached the decision to return the show on Tuesday."
The statement leaves much unsaid, what kind of conversations, for one. Also, how does Jimmy Kimmel intend to address his critics, if at all? We learned just minutes ago that one of those two big affiliate groups, Sinclair, will preempt the show. The other, Nexstar, has not said what they will do. Nexstar, as you know, is pursuing a big merger right now that actually needs FCC approval, something likely not lost on Chairman Carr. This was him just hours before Nexstar dropped Kimmel, and ABC suspended him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRENDAN CARR, CHAIRMAN, U.S. FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION: We can do this the easy way or the hard way. These companies can find ways to change conduct to take action. Frankly, on Kimmel or, you know, there's going to be additional work for the FCC ahead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, it turned out no extra work was needed. Protests followed from people demonstrating outside Disney properties across the country. Civil liberties and writers groups weighed in. More than 400 actors, musicians and film directors signed an open letter organized by the ACLU. People said they were canceling Disney+ subscriptions, including Howard Stern, who is no stranger to controversy and pressure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD STERN, RADIO HOST AND MEDIA PERSONALITY: When the government begins to interfere, when the government says, I'm not pleased with you. So were going to orchestrate a way to silence you. It's the wrong direction for our country.
Now, it might sound stupid, but the thing I did this morning, I'm canceling my Disney+. I'm trying to say with the pocketbook that I do not support what they're doing with Jimmy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Whether or not cancel subscriptions factor into Disney and ABC's decision, we don't know nor do we know what the President makes of it. He's not weighed in yet, either on camera or online. What we do know is that the President has now made it plain several times over the last few days that he has no qualms about threatening the media over what late night comics say, and what he is really concerned about and angry about is what they say about him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Are you going to ask Brendan Carr to weigh in on other late night hosts that you have said should be off the air?
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, you know, when a late-night host is on network television, there is a license. I'll give you an example, I read someplace that the networks were 97 percent against me. I get 97 percent negative, and yet I won it easily. I won all seven swing states, popular -- I won everything. And if they're 97 percent against me, they give me only bad publicity or press. I mean, they're getting a license. I would think maybe their license should be taken away. It will be up to Brendan Carr.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: We go first tonight to CNN entertainment correspondent, Elizabeth Wagmeister in Los Angeles. Elizabeth, you have new reporting about Kimmel's show tomorrow and the Sinclair affiliate group.
ELIZABETH WAGMEISTER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson. So, I just heard from a source that Jimmy Kimmel will indeed address this entire situation, this entire controversy in his monologue tomorrow night. I have another source who tells me that everybody at the show and at Disney and ABC, they know that Jimmy Kimmel is who he is. He is going to say what he wants to say, and they are not going to attempt to censor him.
Now, our Brian Stelter also reports that Sinclair, one of the station groups which carries "Jimmy Kimmel Live, is refusing to air the show tomorrow night. I know that Brian is going to speak more about that, but I have a source who tells me that even before Disney made the ultimate decision, an announcement today, Anderson, to say that we are bringing back the show, that they were ready to stand behind Jimmy, with or without Nexstar and Sinclair.
So, they are standing behind him. They are ready to air the show, even if it's not available in the entire country as it normally is.
[20:05:48]
COOPER: Elizabeth Wagmeister, thanks very much.
A lot to discuss, I'm joined now by "New York Times" reporter and columnist James B. Stewart. He's also the author of "Unscripted: The Epic Battle For Media Empire and the Redstone Family Legacy." Also with us, CNN chief media analyst Brian Stelter, Harvard law professor Rebecca Tushnet and "Los Angeles Times" T.V. and media reporter Stephen Battaglio.
James, let me start off with you. Did it surprise you to hear that he's coming back? JAMES B. STEWART, "THE NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER AND COLUMNIST: Well,
it did a little bit that it was so fast, but the pressure was clearly mounting on Disney. The revolt from the creative community in California and elsewhere, no doubt an incipient revolt among Disney employees. These are issues, they care strongly about.
COOPER: Do you think like that -- the hundreds of creative people in Hollywood writing a letter, signing a letter that matters to Disney?
STEWART: I think it does matter. But I think even more, their own employees matter. Their creative community, who in the past have been very vocal about expressing their views on controversial topics and they hadn't stated anything yet, but I'm sure they were gearing up and there was going to be a big problem on Iger's hands.
COOPER: And -- that's who would have made this decision -- Bob Iger.
STEPHEN BATTAGLIO, "THE LOS ANGELES TIMES" T.V. AND MEDIA REPORTER: Absolutely, and Bob, quite frankly, is concerned about legacy. Does he want to be no be known as the guy who caved in to Donald Trump and took one of his critics off the air. And because Bob really has a great record on this matter. You know, when he when he was first coming up in the 1990s as an entertainment executive at ABC, there was a show called "NYPD Blue," which stretched the boundaries of nudity and language, and 30 percent of the ABC affiliates would not air the program.
A lot of people told Bob to cave that he didn't. He stood for it. Correct, that's right, that's right. And so, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if Bob thought a little bit about that before making this decision.
COOPER: Brian, the Sinclair affiliate group had previously demanded that Kimmel apologize, make a personal donation to the Kirk family in Turning Point USA. Is that still the case tonight for them? Do you know?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Yes, I just hung up with the Sinclair spokesperson. The company will not officially say if it still is demanding that apology. And so, once that donation, the company does say, "discussions with ABC are ongoing as we evaluate the shows potential return."
Now, Sinclair has 30 ABC affiliated stations across the country. That is a significant chunk, although there are many, many other ABC stations owned by other companies, and we don't yet know what Nexstar is going to do. Of course, Nexstar, as was mentioned, is the other big station group that publicly complained about Kimmel last week.
It is no secret that Sinclair's owners are conservative Trump supporters. The stations have had a right wing bent. Some of the newscasts have as well. So this is a statement by Sinclair. And more broadly, this may be an example of the unspooling of broadcast T.V. You know, the word broad is in the name, but broadcast T.V. has been shrinking for years. And MAGA supporters have long complained about late night shows being too liberal, too anti-Trump. Tonight, many Trump voters believe Kimmel was lying and trying to hurt conservatives. And that narrative is still very much out there and alive and well.
So, I think in some ways, this controversy is only getting bigger because so many Trump fans are now going to be furious with ABC. And this is a moment where Disney CEO Bob Iger is standing up, taking a position. And I think he's probably aware of what the consequences will be.
BATTAGLIO: I think one thing we should point out regarding Sinclair, there are affiliate agreements and contractually you can only preempt so many hours of programming in certain periods, they could find themselves in breach and lose their affiliation altogether.
In fact, I would say if these if ABC had NFL football, this probably wouldn't have even happened.
COOPER: But why? Because they wouldn't care.
BATTAGLIO: Well, because it's such a giant moneymaker for local stations.
COOPER: There's no way to --
BATTAGLIO: You would not risk something like this. But, clearly Nexstar is taking their time talking about us, too, because I'm sure the lawyers are reading the fine print saying if they can really keep this show off the air indefinitely.
COOPER: Professor, is there any -- what other levers does Brendan Carr at the FCC or the Trump administration had that matter have to pull here? Because essentially the FCC hadn't actually done anything. They just -- Brendan Carr had talked about it, sent a signal to affiliates that they should do something and these affiliates did.
[20:10:11]
REBECCA TUSHNET, HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR: Yes, so the levers are this threatened license review for not following the public interest. And I want to make clear that is cartoonishly unconstitutional in this situation. It doesn't mean they're not going to threaten it. And of course, you know, lots of lawyers will send their kids to private school based on those threats. And in addition, the other thing that's on the table is potential mergers. We used to have rules against consolidated media ownership. They've been relaxed and you know, the and there are people who want them relaxed more, but that would require, federal permission.
COOPER: James, you had used the example, you know, I was asking about, do you really think it's, you know, pressure from the creative community that moved Bob Iger use the example back of years ago, when there was a so-called Don't Say Gay Bill in Florida? Bob Iger was out in front of that.
STEWART: Well, that's a good example because there was pressure on Disney. Disney didn't want to take a stand on the gay issue in Florida and their own employees revolted and that was in part fanned by the fact that Iger, who was not the CEO.
COOPER: He had stepped down from being CEO at the time.
STEWART: He re-tweeted a statement which called for taking a moral stand on important issues like this. So, I think that's a precedent that shows -- and the Disney creative community ultimately prevailed. Disney backed down, they did oppose the --
COOPER: Got into a big battle with Florida, yes.
STEWART: I think another important point is that in Disney's statement today, they did not say the statement was inaccurate or false. They said it was ill-timed.
Carr's whole argument for this was that it's not in the public interest if there's a false statement, that was, on the face of it, not a false statement. And when you talk about the public interest to reference something the professor just said, the public interest is to allow broadcasters the full freedom of the First Amendment. And that has traditionally been the standard by which public interest is measured and it was not in this case.
COOPER: Do you think Kimmel will apologize for something?
BATTAGLIO: People who know him tell me that he's a stubborn guy. So, it's hard -- I would be hesitant to predict that. I could certainly see a clarification and I think he'll try to do it in a humorous way.
COOPER: Brian, even if ABC did the math and decided it makes financial sense to put Kimmel back on the air without fully affiliate backing, will the network still have a branding problem, if dozens or more T.V. stations don't resume airing the show.
STELTER: I mean, I would say short answer, yes and longer answer, it's another example of America fracturing along red versus blue, pro-Trump versus anti-Trump lines. It is the unspooling of broadcast T.V. I think some coverage and commentary about Trump loses sight of the fact that he is, and always has been, an unpopular President. Trump is a very savvy about peacocking, about looking bigger and more popular than he is, but his approval rating usually hovers around 40 percent.
So, if you're Disney, you might make a rational business decision that it's better to appeal to the six out of ten Americans versus the four out of ten Americans. But that four out of ten, that 40 percent is going to feel even more alienated, even more turned off as a result of this decision. And Sinclair or other station owners that meet those Trump voters where they are might be able to win more audience. So, once again, we see a situation where people are not able to agree or share the same content, the same cultural values. It's a situation that only seems to fracture further.
COOPER: Now, Stephen.
BATTAGLIO: Many of those Nexstar stations are in conservative areas, very strong Trump supporting areas, Panama City, Florida; Dothan, Alabama and a number of other places where, you know, you could see the community maybe being a little annoyed.
COOPER: We'll see. Thank you. Appreciate it everyone. Thanks.
Just ahead, The White House explains reporting that its Border Czar took $50,000.00 in cash in a paper bag. This is before the President was elected and how the Justice Department explains dropping the case.
And next, the President weighs in on autism, Tylenol, vaccines and kids and two medical professionals weigh in on the advice he gave.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: There's nothing much to say. Don't take Tylenol if you're pregnant and don't give Tylenol to your child when he's born or she's born, don't give it. Just don't give it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:19:03]
COOPER: More breaking news tonight. President Trump and Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. today, publicly linking the rise in the number of cases of autism to the use of acetaminophen, or Tylenol, by women during pregnancy. Ignoring decades of evidence that the pain relief reliever is safe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Effective immediately, the FDA will be notifying physicians that the use of a aceta -- well, let's see how we say that -- acetaminophen -- is that okay, which is basically commonly known as Tylenol during pregnancy can be associated with a very increased risk of autism.
So, taking Tylenol is not good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The President also saying this about pregnant women who are suffering from fever.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: But if you can't tough it out, if you can't do it, that's what you're going to have to do. You'll take a Tylenol, but it will be very sparingly. I understand it's maybe 10 percent of the women that pregnant are, you know, would perhaps be forced to use it. And that would mean you just can't tough it out.
Other than a mother will have to as I say, tough it out a little bit, there's no downside to doing this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:20:32]
COOPER: He also made a connection between autism and childhood vaccinations despite reams of evidence showing there is no such link and suggested that breaking of childhood vaccinations based not, it seems, on some new science, but his own feelings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The MMR, I think, should be taken separately. This is based on what I feel, the mumps, measles and -- the three should be taken separately.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, reaction from some in the medical community was swift. Arthur Caplan of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU's Grossman School of Medicine, released a statement that says, in part, "... the announcement on autism was the saddest display of a lack of evidence, rumors, recycling old myths, lousy advice, outright lies, and dangerous advice I've ever witnessed by anyone in authority in the world claiming to know anything about science."
I want to talk about it more with CNN chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta and Dr. Peter Hotez, co-director of the Center for Vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital. He's coauthor of the new book "Science Under Siege."
Sanjay, what the President and Secretary Kennedy said about autism, backed up by scientific data?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, no. Anderson, first of all, there was no new data that was presented here. So, I mean, this is a, you know, this potential relationship, I will call it between Tylenol or acetaminophen and autism is something that we've been reporting on for a long time and there have been various studies over the years, which maybe showed associations between Tylenol use and autism, but not a direct cause and effect, which was very much what was suggested today.
COOPER: Dr. Hotez, I want to read the rest of the statement from medical ethicist, Art Caplan. He said of today's White House announcement: "... what was said was not only unsupported and wrong, but flat out malpractice and managing pregnancy and protecting fetal life."
I know this is personal for you. You've spoken about your daughter who lives with autism. What do you believe will be the real world impact of what was said today by President Trump and Secretary Kennedy?
DR. PETER HOTEZ, CO-DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR VACCINE DEVELOPMENT AT TEXAS CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL: Well, the real world impact is that parents are now or people are going to think that Tylenol causes autism and as Dr. Gupta points out, it's not supported by the science.
So, the right answer would be if they were going to convene a press conference, they're saying, look, we are concerned about autism. We know it affects a lot of families. We want to do a deeper dive into the potential causes of autism. So were going to convene the best neuroscientists, the best environmental health experts together to look at potential associations, to see if there's any interventions. That would be a very reasonable thing to do, because the truth is, there are some chemical exposures that are much, clearly -- much better associated with the autism phenotype.
COOPER: Sanjay, I want to play another clip from what President Trump said today. This is what he suggested several times that pregnant women do instead of taking Tylenol for a fever.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: But if you can't tough it out, if you can't do it, that's what you're going to have to do. You'll take a Tylenol, but it'll be very sparingly. I understand its maybe 10 percent of the women that are pregnant are, you know, would perhaps be forced to use it. And that would mean, you just can't tough it out.
Other than a mother will have to -- as I say, tough it out a little bit there's no downside to doing this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I mean, is there a downside to toughing it out, if you're pregnant and you have a fever?
GUPTA: Yes, there is, I mean, it's just, it's so bizarre. I mean, just I watched that when it happened and to just sort of watch it again. The way that people are getting medical advice and probably getting very confused.
There is a problem with having fevers when you're pregnant. Something that I think has been talked about a lot, but potential problems with birth defects, with early labor, with miscarriage, with neurodevelopmental problems because of the fever.
My point being that it treating the fever was probably very beneficial for those folks. So, yes, it's probably not a good idea to minimize, especially during the first trimester. And women don't really have many alternatives when it comes to treating fever during pregnancy.
COOPER: So, Dr. Hotez, I mean, when people ask why, according to the CDC, there are so many more autism diagnoses in recent years, what do you say?
[20:25:10]
HOTEZ: Well, I think a big part of this is because we've dramatically changed our diagnostic criteria for what is autism? First of all, we don't call it autism anymore. We call it, the autism spectrum disorders because it is just that it's a huge spectrum of different neurodevelopmental conditions. And as a consequence, that's a big reason why the numbers have gone up.
So, I think a huge component is shifting diagnostic criteria. But it doesn't mean that there's no environmental exposure component. And we've identified and the scientific community has identified about half a dozen chemical exposures.
COOPER: And, Sanjay, the administration is also having the FDA recommend something called folic acid as a treatment for autism. Does that make sense to you?
GUPTA: So yes, so the idea there. So, talking about B vitamins, women may have heard of folate as part of their prenatal vitamins, something that people have talked about for a long time. There's this idea that folate may not be getting absorbed as well into the babies who subsequently are diagnosed with autism.
So, giving a type of B vitamin, that is what's called reduced, meaning it can cross in this case cross over to the blood brain barrier more easily is something that people have been looking at now for some time.
And for children who do have this difficulty with folate, perhaps getting this is something that could be helpful, but it needs to be studied.
COOPER: Dr. Peter Hotez, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you.
HOTEZ: Thank you.
COOPER: Up next, President Trump's Justice Department shutting down an investigation into his Border Czar, Tom Homan, who allegedly accepted a bag of cash from undercover FBI agents during a sting operation last year.
And a tiger handler in Oklahoma connected to the Tiger King fatally mauled by one of his big cats. What went tragically wrong? We'll have more on that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:31:48]
COOPER: It's not often you see a headline like this and days later the subject of it, a high-profile public servant, appears to be facing no consequences. Take a look from the New York Times over the weekend. "Trump Justice Department closed investigation to Tom Homan for accepting bag of cash."
It continues, "Mr. Homan came under scrutiny after he was said to be recorded last year taking $50,000 in cash from undercover FBI agents." Now Mr. Homan is of course the President's high-profile border czar and according to the Times, citing people familiar with the case, this happened in September of last year and was recorded on audio tape.
Quoting the story now, "The cash payment, which was made inside a bag from the food chain Cava, grew out of a long-running counterintelligence investigation that had not been targeting Mr. Homan, according to people who spoke on condition of anonymity to describe the case." The Times report goes on to say that on the tape of that meeting, Mr. Homan seemed to agree to help secure contracts from the next administration if the President won. Homan denies the allegations.
The Justice Department, in a statement, says, "The department's resources must remain focused on real threats to the American people, not baseless investigations. As a result, the investigation has been closed."
Today, the White House also weighed in.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This was another example of the weaponization of the Biden Department of Justice against one of President Trump's strongest and most vocal supporters in the midst of a presidential campaign. You had FBI agents going undercover to try and entrap one of the President's top allies and supporters, someone who they knew very well would be taking a government position months later.
The White House and the President stand by Tom Homan 100 percent because he did absolutely nothing wrong and he is a brave public servant who has done a phenomenal job in helping the President shut down the border.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: She's suggesting Homan was targeted somehow. The Times reporting is that he was not. And even so, if the reporting is right, no one made him take $50,000 in a Cava bag. As for why the case was dropped, one source tells The Times, there simply wasn't enough evidence to meet federal charging standards, with another saying the case was ended before such evidence could be gathered.
As for weaponization, there was also this from the President this weekend, a social media post which reads like a direct message to the Attorney General about his enemies. "Pam," it begins, "I have reviewed over 30 statements and posts saying that, essentially, same old story as last time, all talk, no action. Nothing is being done. What about Comey, Adam "Shifty" Schiff, Letitia?" They're all guilty as hell, but nothing is going to be done."
He wraps it up with, "We can't delay any longer, it's killing our reputation and credibility. They impeached me twice and indicted me five times. Over nothing, justice must be served, now"
That was on Saturday. It was then taken down. Yesterday, he told reporters, quote, "Pam Bondi is doing a great job."
Joining us now from the left and the right, CNN Political Commentators Bakari Sellers and Brad Todd, also a Best-Selling Author and Supreme Court Biographer, Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeffrey, I mean, is it possible to overstate the significance of the President of the United States telling Pam Bondi to go after perceived enemies?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It's never happened before in American history. Nothing like that. When you look at Richard Nixon's enemies list, which is maybe the closest parallel, he didn't make it public. It came out much later in investigations because he knew how wrong it was.
[20:35:07]
Nixon knew that it was wrong to target enemies and to use the power of the government to attack people simply because they're your enemies. This is that kind of misconduct in public from the President.
You know, as a former prosecutor, you know, who has a lot of respect for how the Justice Department works, the idea that a president is directing the indictment and firing people, he fired the U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia because he wouldn't go after Tish James. This is a real perversion of how the Justice Department is supposed to work, and we'll see if he gets what he wants and these people are actually charged.
COOPER: Brad, do you see this as a perversion of how the Justice Department is supposed to work?
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, you know, Anderson, we're not giving the rest of the context here. Later on and when he was interviewed, the next interview after this, President Trump said, you know, maybe they're not guilty of anything. If they're not guilty of anything, we need to be able to say that and move on.
COOPER: Well, actually, let me play --
TODD: (INAUDIBLE) so we need to move on.
COOPER: Let me -- sorry. Let me play what he said on Saturday.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have to act fast. One way or the other. One way or the other. They're guilty, they're not guilty, we have to act fast. If they're not guilty, that's fine. If they are guilty or if they should be charged, they should be charged. And we have to do it now.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: So is that what he said, though, to the Attorney General?
TODD: Well, that's what she -- presumably, she watches the news and heard his sound bite there. And, you know, she in the end doesn't bring charges. She would have to present evidence to a grand jury. The grand jury, a jury of citizens, would have to bring charges against someone.
So that's how this system works. It's how it has worked. And that's the -- how this would follow through if the Justice Department ever decided there was anything of merit against one of those individuals.
COOPER: Bakari, if this is all well and good, why do you think it was taken down, the post?
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: First of all, this is not all well and good. And what we're seeing is, I mean, to my good friend Brad's point, what he's saying is that these individuals are guilty until proven innocent. That's just not the way the American justice system works.
I think Jeffrey Toobin knows this extremely well from being on the opposite side of where I sit, being a prosecutor. The fact is, Donald Trump has ruined the foundations of our criminal justice system in this country. And I actually blame Merrick Garland. This is a stretch for most people tonight.
But Merrick Garland should have done his job and should have followed through on the many charges that Donald Trump faced, and we would not be in this situation today. The fact is, Donald Trump right now is perverting the justice system, using it to go after his political opponents, and we've never seen anything like this before.
We've never seen someone who is not qualified as Pam Bondi actually go after their political opponents. And ethics, when the Trump administration came into office the second time, were completely thrown out the window. And we see this by Tom Homan, who literally is taking bags of cash, although I like Cava, he's taking bags of cash to have someone get government contracts.
This is the very, very fundamental element of the Trump administration, which is that ethics have no place in government, and I think people, the American public, are turning their stomach against that.
COOPER: Brad, I want you to be able to respond.
TODD: Well, Bakari, I wish I was as eloquent as my friend Bakari is, but to say that there's never been a president that weaponized the Department of Justice's prosecutions against their political opponent means that Bakari has forgotten what happened in the last couple of years.
You had Merrick Garland and the Biden administration sending their career prosecutors on a novel prosecution, something that had never been seen before in New York, a cooked-up charge. That's exactly what happened. The Biden administration willfully helped prosecute their political opponent, and that was -- that's not so long ago.
COOPER: Jeff?
TOOBIN: Speaking of unprecedented, we had a president try to overturn the results of a -- an election. That was unprecedented, and that led to criminal charges. The same president had classified information in his house in Florida that he had been asked and --
SELLERS: Kurt (ph). TOOBIN: -- repeatedly to return. The wasn't -- the behavior was unprecedented, not the prosecution.
COOPER: Let me just ask about Tom Homan. Jeff, just from a legal standpoint, is it actually illegal if you are not in a position to give somebody a, you know, sweetheart deal or a contract to take money?
TOOBIN: It's -- the answer is no. It is not illegal to do it if you have no ability to deliver what --
COOPER: To deliver immediately even if you're going to be in office.
TOOBIN: Well, but that's where it gets a little subtle, and that's why it seems like you should have more of an investigation. If you're about to be named to a position that you know and he know -- the bribe giver knows you are going to -- you're going to get, then it might be illegal.
[20:40:06]
It certainly seems to call for more investigation, and certainly the circumstances passing a bag of cash add to the suspiciousness around it, if that's actually what happened.
COOPER: In general, if somebody offers you a bag of cash, would you take it? Generally a good rule not to do it.
TOOBIN: As a journalist, no, I would -- I try to avoid it.
COOPER: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN (?): If it were, like, a different store.
SELLERS: If it's in Cava bag, maybe.
COOPER: All right. That's all the time we have, guys. Thank you, Bakari, Brad Todd as well, Jeff Toobin.
Coming up, never-before-seen video from inside Robb Elementary School shows how a teacher who was falsely blamed for leaving a door open was actually trying to save her students' lives.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
AMY MARIN-FRANCO, FORMER TEACHER, ROBB ELEMENTARY SHOOTING SURVIVOR: I want the whole world to see that I did not run straight to my room to hide.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:45:30] COOPER: It's been more than three years since a teenage shooter entered Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas and massacred 19 children and two teachers. For that grieving community, there is still not full accountability for the tragedy and the law enforcement failures that prolonged it.
One teacher who survived was wrongly accused of propping open the door that gave the shooter access to the school. Surveillance video of her actions that day has been caught up in a years-long effort by officials to keep records related to the shooting and the law enforcement failure to confront the gunman out of public view.
Now CNN Shimon Prokupecz and his team obtained the full video that authorities are refusing to make public through his sources. Here's his story.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Life is just never the same after you're blamed for a national tragedy.
MARIN-FRANCO: It's like frozen in time because three years and we had no justice. Three years.
PROKUPECZ (voice-over): It was in the days after a gunman stormed through a door that was supposed to be locked and murdered 19 children and two teachers at Robb Elementary in Uvalde, Texas, when a waking nightmare became a living hell for Amy Marin-Franco.
COL. STEVEN MCCRAW, FORMER DIRECTOR, TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: My name is Steven McCraw, director of the Texas Department of Public Safety. The exterior door where we knew the shooter entered was propped open by a teacher.
MARIN-FRANCO: It was just lie after lie after lie after lie. All I was saying was I closed the door, I closed the door. I kicked the rock and I closed the door. They thought they were going to get away with it.
PROKUPECZ: What's been the hardest the last few years?
MARIN-FRANCO: Even though I know the truth, feeling the separation because of the blame, people are still believing that.
PROKUPECZ: You think so?
MARIN-FRANCO: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I see it every day. Every day. You can feel the division. You know, you can feel the people that are, hmm, she left the door open.
PROKUPECZ: How do you convince people?
MARIN-FRANCO: I am looking for a specific video. They've shown bits and pieces, but they've not shown the entire video.
PROKUPECZ (voice-over): The head of the Texas DPS, he eventually apologized for the mistake. But to this day, the department, they're blocking the release of the video Amy is so desperate for people to see.
PROKUPECZ: Have you seen this angle?
MARIN-FRANCO: No.
PROKUPECZ (voice-over): It shows Amy running outside with her cell phone after she witnessed a gunman crash a truck behind the school.
MARIN-FRANCO: I'm calling 911.
PROKUPECZ: To say a truck crashed.
MARIN-FRANCO: I'm running. I'm running to the scene.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uvalde County 911.
MARIN-FRANCO: Yes. There was just an accident right here behind Robb School.
PROKUPECZ (voice-over): She is among the first to alert police a shooter is headed toward the building.
MARIN-FRANCO: Oh, my God, they're running. I don't know why.
Oh, my God, he has a gun.
PROKUPECZ (voice-over): She rushes back inside, kicks away the rock that held the door open and pulls it shut. But from inside that building, there was no way to know if it is locked.
CNN recently uncovered maintenance records that showed there were problems with the lock on that door a month before the shooting.
PROKUPECZ: You think the door is closed here, locked, right?
MARIN-FRANCO: That door is locked, because it's always supposed to be locked.
PROKUPECZ (voice-over): Amy immediately begins warning others and yells for kids to get into their classroom.
MARIN-FRANCO: There's a guy with a gun, call the office. Right behind the campus. Come one, guys, hurry, come on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, that's --
MARIN-FRANCO: He's shooting.
PROKUPECZ (voice-over): After three minutes, she walks into her own room, turns off the lights and shuts her classroom door. Just a few seconds later, the gunman easily opens the same outside door and makes his way into the fourth grade classroom.
Police swung open the door three minutes after the gunman. By then, it was too late. The shooter would remain inside the room for 77 minutes.
MARIN-FRANCO: The way he just walks in, like --
PROKUPECZ: When you see this and you see yourself given the warnings, is there some reassurance or how do you feel?
MARIN-FRANCO: I want the whole world to see that I did not run straight to my room to hide. I was warning everybody that there was a shooter on campus. I did not stand around like all those 376 officers did. I was warning everybody to get in their rooms.
MCCRAW: And certainly the teacher that went back for her cell phone, it propped it open again. So that was an access point that the subject used.
[20:50:03]
PROKUPECZ: How do you feel when you see him?
MARIN-FRANCO: Total failure. I don't care to look at that man's face. If you want to believe that, then go ahead and believe it, but I have the proof right here.
PROKUPECZ: You're fighting now because this is about getting this video released. What can you do?
MARIN-FRANCO: I will continue to speak up. I will continue to fight. When the files were released, I knew what I was going to look for, and I didn't see it there. So I started asking, where's the video?
Evidence is still being withheld.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I call the regular meeting of the Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District Board of Trustees to order.
MARIN-FRANCO: My name is Amy Franco. I am a survivor of the Robb Elementary mass shooting. You say you stand for transparency, but you have withheld the very footage that will clear my name.
PROKUPECZ (voice-over): Amy hoped the footage would finally be released after the district lost a court fight to keep it secret.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The district does not have any hallway video to release because we are not in possession of any of it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know what it means to the families. We know what it means to you, Amy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry, Amy.
PROKUPECZ: You were a totally different person before this.
MARIN-FRANCO: I was. I was a different person. But she died that day. I'm a new version now, and I'm learning who I am.
I know I'm a fighter now. I have to stand up to all these people that did me wrong.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
COOPER: I mean, this is incredible. This is incredible. That woman was pilloried.
PROKUPECZ (on-camera): She was. And in some ways, she still is by people in that community. And that's why she wants this video to come out. Yes --
COOPER: I mean, can you imagine what she has dealt with for three years in that community with the police saying she, you know, there was a rock in the door, and she left the door open? I mean, that's incredible. And she was -- like, the police ran in three minutes after the gunman, and then they sat around for --
PROKUPECZ (on-camera): 70 seconds.
COOPER: -- 70 -- I mean --
PROKUPECZ (on-camera): Yes.
COOPER: And she was running around yelling, warning people.
PROKUPECZ (on-camera): She was running around. This is the part that's never been seen before, her running through that hallway telling people to get inside. And this is the part that she wants out there because she wants the community to see that she did everything.
She's not working. She can't go back to work. She has no money. She lives alone.
COOPER: Amy Marin is her name.
PROKUPECZ (on-camera): Amy Marin.
COOPER: What --
PROKUPECZ (on-camera): She's an incredible woman. She tried so hard to warn people what was happening. And --
COOPER: And what is their argument for not releasing this video?
PROKUPECZ (on-camera): So, the Texas Department of Public Safety took custody of this video. It's not their video. It belongs to the school. The school says, we want it back because we do want to release it. And they said, well, no, we're not giving it back.
They told us tonight that the reason is because there's a criminal prosecution. Remember, there's the police chief, the former police chief of the school district, and another officer that are facing charges.
COOPER: Right.
PROKUPECZ (on-camera): But what does this specific piece of this video have to do with that prosecution is unclear. And that's why the community is saying we want this released, the school board, which is now on her side. There are new school board members that are now on the side of this community and they are saying we want this information out there.
All of this sort of got reignited, Anderson, just quickly. It's because we, along with other media organizations, sued to get information released. And when the school district lost that battle and finally had to release information, we found that they still weren't releasing everything.
COOPER: Wow.
PROKUPECZ (on-camera): The lawyers still weren't releasing everything.
COOPER: I mean, it's incredible how you've stayed on this story, and I'm so appreciative of Amy Marin. I mean, I hope somebody apologizes to her.
Just ahead, an update on our breaking news. From the top of the broadcast, Stephen Colbert has just spoken out about Jimmy Kimmel's reinstatement. We'll bring that to you.
Also, tragedy in Oklahoma. A tiger handler fatally mauled at his family-run zoo. And the cost to Disney of taking Jimmy Kimmel off the air. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:58:03]
COOPER: An Oklahoma tiger trainer, who reportedly had once bought some tigers from Joe Exotic of Tiger King fame, was mauled to death over the weekend by one of his cats. In a statement, Growler Pines Tiger Preserve said that Ryan Easily was attacked and killed during a performance with a tiger at their facility.
They said the tragedy is a painful reminder of both the beauty and unpredictability of the natural world. Ryan understood those risks, not out of recklessness, but out of love. Joe Exotic has offered his condolences.
As we reported at the top of the program, Jimmy Kimmel's show will be back on the air tonight. Moments ago, the lead show with Stephen Colbert released this clip from their broadcast tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, TV HOST: Well, just a few hours before we taped this broadcast, we got word that our long, national, late nightmare is over. Because Disney announced that "Jimmy Kimmel Live!" will return to air on ABC tomorrow, Tuesday night.
Come on!
(CHEERING) (END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: Well the decision to suspend Jimmy Kimmel came with cost. CNN's Chief Data Analyst, Harry Enten, is here with more.
How popular was the idea of canceling Disney Plus since Kimmel went offline?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA REPORTER: Yes, I mean, this would become just such a headache for Disney, right? Look at the Google searches for boycotting Disney, canceling Disney Plus. Up like a rocket on both of those. We're talking the highest level ever for both of those.
And, of course, Google searches go back since 2004. We're talking about rises of upwards of 1,000, 500 percent, and over 10,000 percent when it came to boycotting Disney.
COOPER: And what about Disney stock?
ENTEN: Yes, OK, so we're talking about the bottom line, right? And take a look at the Disney stock, what has happened since, of course, they decided to put Kimmel aside for a few days. We saw that the Disney stock dropped. And what's so important to note here is that, in fact, the S&P 500 went up during the same period of time.
So, clearly, there was some market force that was acting against Disney, which obviously was the potential of not just the consumer anger, but also just the general, bleh, that I think was just surrounding this entire situation.
Now, let me just point out one little last thing, which is the ratings for Jimmy Kimmel are obviously down over the past few years, as obviously folks have been leaving their broadcast television aside. I think the real question is, can all this controversy actually build up and get Kimmel to get, say, north of, say, 2.4 million, which was his average audience back in 2015? I wouldn't be surprised by 3 or 4 million.
Hey, cancelation or the threat of cancelation can be pretty good for business.
COOPER: I'm sure a lot of people will tune in and see.
ENTEN: Yes.
COOPER: He's on tomorrow. Harry Enten, thanks very much.
ENTEN: Thank you.
COOPER: That's it. The news continues. The Source starts now. See you tomorrow.
