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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Former FBI Director James Comey Indicted; Interview with Rep. Dan Goldman (D-NY); Interview with Sen. Amy Klobuchar (D-MN); Former FBI Director James Comey Indicted; Comey Charged With Giving False Statements & Obstruction Of A Congressional Proceeding. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired September 25, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DAVID FRUM, FORMER SPEECHWRITER FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: ... who didn't quit the job today.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Quick final word, Ryan Goodman. Do you see Comey turn himself in tomorrow or do they go get him?
RYAN GOODMAN, FORMER SPECIAL COUNSEL AT DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE: I think he'll turn himself in. I think that's the best way for him to do it. And just to piggyback on something David just said, just a big picture, I think it's also to think about the U.S. Supreme Court.
So in terms of what happened in Trump's first term and your -- Trump tried to order the indictment of Comey, but Don McGahn his White House counsel pushed back and the U.S. Supreme Court last year said, he can order a sham investigation and he would be totally immune. I think that's partly why we're in a predicament that we are.
BURNETT: And here we are now, thank you all very much. And thanks to all of you for joining us. Anderson continues our breaking news coverage now.
[20:00:47]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Good evening, thanks for joining us. We are witnessing history right now. Tonight, for the first time, a former director of the FBI has been indicted, indicted by the Department of Justice, whose leader, the Attorney General, was just days ago publicly urged in writing by the President to indict James Comey.
This was the social media post the President wrote Saturday, directed at the Attorney General, Pam Bondi. And I want to read it all to you now in full, because it foreshadows how this has all played out today.
"Pam," it begins. "I've reviewed over 30 statements and posts saying that essentially same old story as last time. All talk, no action, nothing is being done. What about Comey, Adam "Shifty" Schiff, Letitia, they're all guilty as hell, but nothing is going to be done."
The President continued talking about the U.S. Attorney he forced out for not taking action. "Then we almost put in a Democrat supported U.S. Attorney in Virginia with a really bad republican past. A woke RINO who is never going to do his job. That's why two of the worst Dem senators pushed him so hard. He even lied to the media and said he quit, and that we had no case. No, I fired him and there was a great case and many lawyers and legal pundits say so."
The President then turns to the former personal attorney he picked to replace the U.S. attorney. "Lindsey Halligan is a really good lawyer and likes you a lot. We can't delay any longer. It's killing our reputation and credibility. They impeached me twice and indicted me five times over nothing. Justice must be served now."
And that is exactly how it played out. Firing the U.S. attorney, Erik Siebert, replacing him with a loyalist, Lindsey Halligan took the action he was so loudly demanding. And now, the one-time head of the premier law enforcement agency in the country, if not the world, is facing two federal criminal counts.
They are obstruction of a Congressional proceeding and giving false statements to Congress during this testimony in 2020. This is the key moment in that testimony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): On May 3rd, 2017, in this committee, chairman Grassley asked you point blank, "Have you ever been an anonymous source in news reports about matters relating to the Trump investigation of the Clinton investigation?" You responded under oath, "Never."
Now, as you know, Mr. McCabe, who works for you, has publicly and repeatedly stated that he leaked information to "The Wall Street Journal" and that you were directly aware of it and that you directly authorized it.
Now, what Mr. McCabe is saying and what you testified to this committee cannot both be true. One or the other is false. Who's telling the truth?
JIM COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: I can only speak to my testimony. I stand by the testimony you summarized that I gave in May of 2017.
CRUZ: Your testimony is you've never authorized anyone to leak. And, Mr. McCabe, if he says contrary, is not telling the truth, is that correct?
COMEY: Again, I'm not going to characterize Andy's testimony, but mine is the same today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, tonight's charges came even as sources were telling us that Attorney General Bondi and other federal prosecutors had concerns about the case. If so, the Attorney General, at least now seems on board. She posted about it online, quoting, "No one is above the law. Today's indictment reflects the Department of Justice's commitment to holding those who abuse positions of power accountable for misleading the American people. We will follow the facts in this case." A short time later, the President weighed in, the post reads, "Justice in America, one of the worst human beings this country has ever been exposed to is James Comey, the former corrupt head of the FBI. Today, he was indicted by a grand jury on two felony counts for various illegal and unlawful acts. He's been so bad for our country for so long, and is now at the beginning of being held responsible for his crimes against our nation, Make America Great Again."
His animus toward James Comey is no surprise. He's talked about it, yelled about it, joked about it for years.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Comey and all this, you know, sleazebags.
Comey lied to everybody.
We fired Comey, that fraud.
That phony crooked Comey.
Comey should hang his head in disgrace.
Comey is a dirty cop.
Comey is a corrupt person.
One of the best things is firing James Comey's (bleep) out of there.
He's a leaker.
Comey, who's the worst --
They lied to Congress many times, you know, Comey and all those guys.
Comey lies and leaks. He's a liar and he's a leaker. Is this guy being looked at? But we're going to straighten it out.
A guy like Comey who's a sick man, I mean, Comey is a sick man. The one person I did a very good thing in firing was the dirty cop, Comey. There's something wrong with him. But it's all coming out and I love to watch it step by step, day by day.
Comey is a liar and a leaker. I did you a great favor when I fired this guy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:05:41]
COOPER: This guy has now been indicted by the Department of Justice, which the President clearly views as his Department of Justice. As for the urgency, now, the statute of limitations was about to run out on Tuesday. A lot of voices to hear from tonight. CNN's Evan Perez starts us off. So, talk more about this indictment. I mean, its two pages. There's not much there.
EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right, there's not much there, Anderson. But you just played the clip of that testimony, which was central to this investigation and that really tells the story.
This is about testimony that the former FBI director gave to the Senate on September 30th of 2020, and he was asked whether he had ever authorized leaks to the news media. According to the indictment, what he said was false, that he had, of course, according to prosecutors, had authorized leaks to the news media related to the Donald Trump investigation.
And I'll read you just a part of what Lindsey Halligan who is the new acting U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia. She's been on the job since Monday. She's the one that presented the case to the grand jury, which is an indication, Anderson, that the career lawyers in that office did not want to do so.
And so, that is unusual. We don't normally have U.S. attorneys actually presenting cases to the to the grand jury, but that is what we had today. And what we heard from Magistrate Judge Lindsey Vala today in court, she said that 14 grand jurors had agreed to indict on these two counts. One of them was for making false statements in the jurisdiction of a Congressional proceeding. And the second count was for obstruction of a Congressional proceeding.
There was a third count that prosecutors had sought an indictment on. Another false statement charge that was voted down by the grand jurors. They did not approve that third count. So that's why we have two counts now against James Comey.
Now, these two counts carry five-year terms. They would be concurrent if he were to be convicted. And of course, the fact that James Comey has never been charged with a crime, it's unlikely he would get five years if he were to be convicted. But we're a long way from there -- Anderson.
COOPER: And just to be clear, we do not know what that third count that they wanted was.
PEREZ: Right, there was a third count where he was asked a question about Hillary Clinton, whether he leaked on Hillary Clinton. And it appears, according to according to the No True Bill, that that is the one that they voted down.
COOPER: All right, Evan Perez, thanks. We'll check in with you throughout this hour. We've just gotten a video statement by James Comey on Instagram. Here it is in full.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COMEY: My family and I have known for years that there are costs to standing up to Donald Trump, but we couldn't imagine ourselves living any other way. We will not live on our knees and you shouldn't either. Somebody that I love dearly recently said that fear is the tool of a tyrant, and she's right. But I'm not afraid. And I hope you're not either.
I hope instead you are engaged. You are paying attention, and you will vote like your beloved country depends upon it, which it does. My heart is broken for the Department of Justice, but I have great confidence in the federal judicial system, and I'm innocent. So, let's have a trial and keep the faith.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That is a remarkable statement to hear from a former head of the FBI who has now been indicted.
Here with the two former federal prosecutors, New York Democratic Congressman Dan Goldman and CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig. Congressman, how do you see this?
REP. DAN GOLDMAN (D-NY): There's so many different directions to go on -- going towards. It is fundamentally a break point in our system of government.
COOPER: A break point.
GOLDMAN: And the reason is the United States, for its entire history, has gone around the world promoting anti-corruption, promoting democracy. And the number one thing that our government insists upon in any other country that wants to be Democratic, wants to get our support, is that the leaders do not use the criminal justice system to retaliate or to go after their political adversaries.
This is open and shut that that is exactly what the Department of Justice has done. Donald Trump has laid it out. If this case even goes to trial and is not dismissed by vindictive prosecution, it's a nonstarter. But it doesn't even really matter so much tonight because even James Comey recognizes that the individual case against him is far less important than the damage this is doing and has done to the Department of Justice.
[20:10:58]
COOPER: The rule of law in America so much depends on the rule of law, businesses, everything depends. And this puts that all in question.
GOLDMAN: And let me explain a little bit why, right. You may think, oh well, you know, James Comey went after Donald Trump. So, this is you know, turnabout is fair play. The problem is how are you ever going to know whether an investigation by the FBI, an investigation by the Department of Justice is legitimate or is corrupt? It taints every single case that the Department of Justice brings, that the FBI investigates, because you have the President of the United States ordering his attorney general to indict a political adversary.
Traditionally, since Watergate, there are clear norms that protect against the White House and the President from influencing any criminal -- individual criminal case. They have completely broken down. But that's not even enough here to explain how serious it is. I'm sure my friend, Elie will get into the significance of the fact that there was actually a rejection of an indictment on the third count, which is almost unheard of.
And if Evan is right that there were only 14 grand jurors who supported this indictment, you need to have 16 to have a quorum, which means that at least two voted not to indict him. All you can indict -- as the story goes, a ham sandwich they could not indict James Comey. And that's a probable cause standard. That's not beyond a reasonable doubt.
COOPER: I want to get down in a second, but just that there are probably a lot of, you know, people who are watching who don't like James Comey, who may be Republican wherever they are on the political aisle, who will say, well, look, the Biden administration went after Donald Trump, raiding Mar-a-Lago, getting classified documents. To those people, what do you say? What is the difference here?
GOLDMAN: Look, there was a detailed search warrant. There was a long history in that case. I understand there is a view that Donald Trump has perpetuated, that he's the victim of some mass conspiracy to go after him. The reality is, there's no evidence of that. It is just Donald Trump saying that. And the difference here is that you have a clear directive from Donald Trump and then he fires the U.S. attorney who says no because there's insufficient evidence.
COOPER: The fact that he actually posted that, I don't know if he knew, intentionally posted that. I mean, what he thought he was maybe writing a memo or something. He calls her Pam, but the post has since been deleted. That is clearly tainting, in your opinion, from a legal standpoint, tainting this prosecution.
GOLDMAN: Absolutely, he says he has to be indicted. He fired -- it wasn't even enough for the U.S. attorney to resign. He had to clarify, he fired him because he wouldn't charge Comey. He hires an insurance lawyer who was clearly brought in as his personal attorney for before, just to indict him before the statute of limitations is up next week.
COOPER: Elie.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So, I've looked at this indictment. It took me about 30s to read it. I mean, it's a page and a couple lines, and I find it deeply underwhelming in terms of what it presents. When you're producer handed it to me. I said, we'll, where's the indictment? I thought this was just a cover sheet. This is the whole thing.
Let me try to lay out the facts that led to this indictment, because it gets a little confusing, but I think we can do it sort of step by step here. The conduct goes back to October 2016. Jim Comey is Director of the FBI, Andy McCabe, is Deputy Director. There's an ongoing FBI investigation of the Clinton Foundation.
Now, Andy McCabe's wife at the time is running for office as a Democrat in Virginia and she's getting assistance and contributions from the Clinton Foundation. McCabe was worried that there was a perception out there that the FBI was going light on the Clinton Foundation because of his wife. And so McCabe authorizes other FBI agents to leak to "The Wall Street Journal" that, in fact, the FBI is vigorously investigating the Clinton Foundation.
Okay, now were going to come to the crux of this indictment. This becomes a subject of a DOJ inspector general report and investigation in 2018. Jim Comey's account of that is, I never knew that Andy McCabe authorized that leak. I never told him he could authorize that leak. And Comey said I had the strong impression I confronted Andy McCabe, and McCabe denied to me that he authorized the leak or had anything to do with it.
Okay, so, that's Comey's story. McCabe's story is, yes, I authorized the leak and after that, a day after that, I told Comey I had authorized the leak. So, it all comes down to did Comey authorize the leak or not? It's essentially going to come down to Jim Comey's word against Andy McCabe's word. I don't know who to believe out of the two of them.
[20:15:52]
COOPER: McCabe said wait after the fact.
HONIG: Right, yes, and here's the thing, this is this is the crazy thing about it. It's McCabe's word against Comey's word. But in this same report, the DOJ inspector general concluded that McCabe lacked candor. So, now these prosecutors are going to say McCabe is the truth teller and Comey is lying.
COOPER: But McCabe is saying not that Comey pre-authorized him to leak. It's c-- McCabe says he leaked and then he told Comey about it.
HONIG: Right, McCabe's story --
COOPER: Isn't what -- let's play, can we play the Ted Cruz questioning of Comey again if we have that.
HONIG: Cruz asks -- Cruz says to Comey, you said two things. One, you Jim Comey, said you never leaked and you said you did not authorize the leak. And that is what Comey testified to. And so that's Comey's story.
COOPER: But --
HONIG: McCabe's story is he authorized it after the fact.
COOPER: Let's just play this.
HONIG: Yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRUZ: On May 3rd, 2017, in this committee, Chairman Grassley asked you point blank quote, "Have you ever been an anonymous source in news reports about matters relating to the Trump investigation of the Clinton investigation?" You responded under oath, "Never."
Now, as you know, Mr. McCabe, who works for you, has publicly and repeatedly stated that he leaked information to "The Wall Street Journal" and that you were directly aware of it and that you directly authorized it. Now, what Mr. McCabe is saying and what you testified to this committee cannot both be true. One or the other is false. Who's telling the truth?
COMEY: I can only speak to my testimony. I stand by what the testimony you summarized that I gave in May of 2017.
CRUZ: Your testimony is you've never authorized anyone to leak. And, Mr. McCabe, if he says contrary, is not telling the truth, is that correct?
COMEY: Again, I'm not going to characterize Andy's testimony, but mine is the same today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLDMAN: Fundamentally, there's a major flaw here, which is that this false statements count is predicated on Ted Cruz's summary of Andy McCabe's testimony. If, as Elie says, McCabe's testimony was different than what Cruz said, and in fact, he did testify that he authorized -- that he told Comey the day after he actually did the leak. Well, of course, Comey couldn't have authorized it beforehand, and so, that will essentially nullify any argument that this is a false statement, not to mention all the other requirements of materiality to the investigation, et cetera. But they're basing this on a summary of McCabe's testimony, not on McCabe's testimony.
COOPER: Congressman, thank you for being here. Elie, we're going to come back to you shortly.
Right now, I want to turn to Minnesota Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar. She was a law school classmate of Comey's, joins us by phone. You were in the 2020 judiciary committee hearing that spurred this indictment. What is your reaction?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): I'm going to get a little out of the weeds here, because, of course, we don't know all the details what was presented. But I look at it this way, Anderson. Trump ordered this prosecution. I'm sure he ordered it behind closed doors, but he also ordered it right there on Truth Social. He fired the U.S. attorney who is according to Senator Warner, a staunch conservative who looked at all the evidence, wasn't moving forward with charges and he fired him and then installed a White House aide to overrule career prosecutors.
And that is what I need to know, because this is simply dangerous. And you can see this through line, with this one thing after another. He calls for prosecution of Letitia James. He calls for the prosecution and investigation of the Federal Reserve member Lisa Cook. Goes after Adam Schiff, pardoned insurrectionists who attacked police officers, pressured prosecutors to dismiss a corruption case against Eric Adams. He is literally weaponizing the Justice Department.
[20:20:12]
COOPER: The Supreme Court has basically said the President can do what he wants, that he has sweeping immunity. Are you saying he's done something illegal or impeachable because prior to this indictment coming down, you said, "When prosecutors essentially -- when prosecutors stand up, you know, they need to be representing the United States, and they need to be independent."
KLOBUCHAR: Correct. What I'm saying is, I'm not getting into who's liable for what. What I'm saying is they are -- there is a clear through line that everyone sees where he is going after people that he doesn't like, or who have said things that he doesn't like, or who have done things to him in the past and these -- that is why this is so troubling for the justice system.
And you are going to see in the coming days it's just happened. Line prosecutors that are going to say what Hagan Scotten said, the guy who quit before he did, what they wanted him to do in the Eric Adams case, and this is a former Justice Roberts and Kavanaugh clerk and he said this, he said, "I expect you will eventually find someone who is enough of a fool or enough of a coward to file your motion, but it was never going to be me."
That is basically what Erik Siebert was saying when he resigned, instead of following the orders of the White House. And there has always been this line, and I was a former prosecutor and went to law school with Jim Comey, and we learned this. Okay, we learned that when you represent the United States, you do it as representing the United States. And I asked Pam Bondi about this in her confirmation hearing. You don't do it as representing the President of the United States. That is the line that they are crossing.
COOPER: Senator Klobuchar, thank you very much.
Joining us when we come back, former Federal Judge Shira Scheindlin. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:26:32]
COOPER: New reporting from CNN's Kaitlan Collins that former FBI Director James Comey is expected to surrender tomorrow morning on two federal charges. That's according to two people familiar with the matter. The charges center on Senate testimony in 2020 about leaks.
Two years prior, in a CNN town hall, I spoke with Comey on the subject of leaks. To be clear, this is not related to the current charges, but it is a window into his thinking on the subject, certainly back then. Here's some of that conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: You did leak memos. I mean, is it okay for somebody at the FBI to leak something, an internal document, even if it's not classified? Isn't that leaking? COMEY: Well, there's a whole lot wrong with your question, Anderson. First, I didn't leak memos. I asked a friend to communicate the substance of one unclassified memo.
COOPER: Whether you --
COMEY: Can I finish for a second?
COOPER: Sure, okay.
COMEY: One unclassified memo to the media. And I was -- really important, I was a private citizen. I was not an FBI employee at that time.
COOPER: But it was an internal document. It was a document you had written while you were FBI director. That is a leak. I mean, if you tell somebody, don't give them the document, but tell them what's in the document. That's still a leak, no?
COMEY: Well, not to get tangled up in it. I think if a leak is an unauthorized disclosure of classified information.
COOPER: Really? That's it? That's a leak?
COMEY: That's how I thought about it, as FBI Director, we investigated leaks, unauthorized disclosures.
COOPER: In your memo, when you said -- when the President said he was eager to find leakers and would like to nail one to the door as a message.
COMEY: I said that.
COOPER: Shouldn't you be nailed to the door then? I mean, aren't you a leaker? I mean, you gave up a document that was released to "The New York Times" -- information from that document released to "The New York Times." I know you're saying, it's not classified, but you're plenty of people leak non-classified information reporters and the White House and the FBI gets upset about it.
COMEY: The FBI gets upset when people make unauthorized disclosures of protected information. There was nothing protected about this, it wasn't classified, it wasn't privileged. It's also in my book.
COOPER: So when you were FBI director, if somebody on your team had given a friend documents that they were writing that, that you were involved with and said, oh, you could just tell "The New York Times" what's in this document, you wouldn't have had a problem with that.
COMEY: Well depending on what was in the document.
COOPER: But even if it's not classified.
COMEY: If it wasn't protected information, it was an investigative information, was it classified information, was it grand jury information. COOPER: So, I guess I'm surprised that you only think leaks -- officially, a leak is something that's classified.
COOPER: Yes, the reason I hesitate is that's how I think about it. As a matter -- as a lawyer and as the director of the FBI, in practice, the term gets applied to a broad range of things. So, I totally get it. I intentionally gave this information to a friend, intending that it be out in the media. I wanted it to get out in the media. As a private citizen, I could do that and did that just as I've written about it in my book.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And just to be clear, what he was talking about has nothing to do with what he is being charged with here. This is a completely separate situation.
Elie Honig is back, joining us is former federal Judge Shira Scheindlin, former federal prosecutor Jessica Roth, former press secretary for the 2016 Clinton Presidential campaign, Brian Fallon and former Trump campaign adviser David Urban.
So, Elie, I mean, let's just reset here. This is the first time a former FBI director has ever been indicted. Talk about the charges he's facing and how difficult are they going to be to prove, will it even get there, given the idea of a malicious prosecution?
HONIG: I think this is going to be a serious, serious uphill climb for prosecutors. They've charged him with two counts one of false statements, one of obstructing Congress. It all comes down to the allegation that Jim Comey lied when he said he did not authorize Andy McCabe to leak. Andy McCabe told the truth when he said that he told Jim Comey about a leak back in 2016. It's a long time ago.
And to your question, Anderson, about will this get to a jury? I have serious doubts because I think Jim Comey's team has a very strong case here for selective prosecution that he's been selected for political purposes based on that Truth Social. I mean, we have a judge here. I'd be interested to hear what Judge Sheindlin would make of that motion.
[20:30:28]
COOPER: That was my next question.
HONIG: Yes. Sorry not to take your spot.
COOPER: Judge, what do you make of this indictment?
SHIRA SCHEINDLIN, FORMER U.S. DISTRICT COURT JUDGE: Well, you mentioned selective prosecution. I think vindictive prosecution may be even a stronger defense motion.
COOPER: Which is usually kind of hard to prove, but in this case --
SCHEINDLIN: It couldn't be easier here. The President of the United States has repeatedly said, this guy belongs in jail, this guy's a criminal, this guy has lied. I mean, the President has told us that I'm going to go after the people who went after me. So, it's -- this is -- couldn't be easier to prove the word vindictive.
COOPER: I mean, the fact that he also posted --
SCHEINDLIN: Yes.
COOPER: -- a note to Pam Bondi about this --
SCHEINDLIN: Right.
COOPER: -- and fire -- and announced that he had fired the person who did not --
SCHEINDLIN: He has directed and commanded this prosecution to take place. Nothing could be more clear. So I think it's the strongest vindictive prosecution motion you could make. And you want to add selective, that's OK with me too.
COOPER: Just --
SCHEINDLIN: But one or the other could be successful.
COOPER: Comey's attorney has just put out a statement. I want to read it, "Jim Comey denies the charges filed today in their entirety. We look forward to vindicating him in the courtroom."
Jessica, you're -- how significant is this, in terms of just the history of this country?
JESSICA ROTH, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: This is an extraordinarily troubling day for the rule of law and for the integrity and independence of the Department of Justice.
COOPER: Explain why it's so significant.
ROTH: Because, as Judge Scheindlin was saying, we have the President of the United States calling for the prosecution of one of his political enemies, Jim Comey, whose prosecution he's been calling for for years. And then replacing the career prosecutor in the Eastern District of Virginia, who is in charge of the investigation, who reportedly said, there's no case here. I'm not going to pursue these charges. That's the reporting.
Fires that person, replaces him with somebody who has no prosecution experience, has no criminal law experience, somebody who is loyal as --
COOPER: Never prosecuted a criminal case.
ROTH: Never been involved in a criminal case, even as a defense lawyer. But no prosecution experience. Trump -- represented Trump privately, work -- is coming directly from the White House, and puts her into that job. It would -- all circumstantial evidence would suggest precisely to pursue this prosecution, which she apparently walked in and did herself with one other political appointee, with no career prosecutor with them.
That is extraordinary. And what it suggests is that no career prosecutor, who was trained in the law and prosecutorial norms, was willing to put their integrity on the line by pursuing this prosecution. And I expect that, in addition to the motion for selective, to dismiss for its selective and vindictive prosecution, there'll be a motion to dismiss based on insufficient evidence. Asking the judge to review the evidence presented to the grand jury, to review it and to see if in fact there was sufficient evidence to support probable cause for these charges.
COOPER: David Urban, the President has repeatedly said that the Biden administration weaponized the Department of Justice. I don't know that there was a social media post by then-President Biden, directing the Department of Justice in the way that the President has done this. Is this not the weaponization of the Department of Justice by President Trump?
DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, Anderson, a few points. First of all, I really appreciate you playing that sound earlier of Jim Comey mealy-mouthing his way out of what he did in leaking those documents to the New York Times in order to get a special counsel to look at President Trump.
So, when you talk about vindictive prosecution and selective prosecution, I think if you're a Trump, you know, supporter, if you work at the Trump White House, if you were around the Trump campaign in 2016 like I was, and every morning you woke up to Jim Comey and the crossfire hurricane investigation and people getting subpoenaed based on false FISA warrants, false evidence, just complete bogusness, I think that there's a feeling that what was selective prosecution was the entire crossfire hurricane operation went on for years --
COOPER: But none of that has anything to do with this case?
URBAN: No, no. No, Anderson, it doesn't have anything to do with this case. However, having listened in to Elliot earlier and Congressman Golden (ph) earlier, two pretty sophisticated lawyers trying to make sense of what took place, whether Andrew McCabe is lying or whether Jim Comey is lying, I think there's ample evidence for a grand jury to return an indictment, which they did, and that's what trials are for.
Listen, they'll get a chance to prove themselves innocent. Director Comey is innocent until proven guilty, and he'll get that opportunity.
COOPER: Brian, obviously no love lost between the 2016 Clinton campaign staffers, I would imagine, and James Comey. What do you make of his -- of this indictment?
[20:35:01]
BRIAN FALLON, FMR. PRESS SEC. 2016 CLINTON PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: This is a bone-chilling abuse of power by the President of the United States, and it should make all of us very afraid for what's to come in the weeks and months ahead. And I say that, Anderson, to your point, not as a Democrat, but as an American, because as you noted, you know, if you just listened to David's recounting of what happened in 2016, you would have thought that Jim Comey was putting his thumb on the scale for Hillary Clinton.
And there's plenty of us that to this day feel that but for the letter that Jim Comey sent to the Hill inappropriately about her email server 11 days prior to the election, that the election outcome might have gone differently. And so there's plenty of people on our side of the aisle that are not fans of Jim Comey, and yet none of that, none of that justifies what has happened today.
This is a purely political prosecution. And despite David's best efforts to spin this, the President himself said the quiet part out loud on Truth Social. These same set of facts were looked at, as Elie mentioned a few moments ago before the break by the Inspector General of the Justice Department. And I'll remind you that there was a special counsel appointed by William Barr, Donald Trump's Attorney General in the first term, John Durham, who was allowed to investigate these same matters for years while Biden was still president of the United States, and he did not see fit to bring charges like these against Jim Comey.
So this is bogus, and I hope that your panel is correct that the judge might see fit to throw these charges out. But even if that's the case, we should all be worried about the fact that Donald Trump probably won't content himself to just pull this stunt with Jim Comey. He's likely to seek political prosecutions against other enemies of his, which -- some of which, by the way, are members of his own party.
And so hopefully in the days ahead, we'll see Republicans as well as Democrats speak out against this. Remember when, you know, the FCC chairman under President Trump just last week threatened ABC over Jimmy Kimmel's comments, you saw people like Ted Cruz and Mitch McConnell speak out and say that that was inappropriate as conservatives. Hopefully we can see Republicans do the same in this instance.
COOPER: David, I mean, you know, there is such a thing as vindictive prosecution. Is this not -- I mean, on the face of it, I mean, that social media post by the President over the weekend directly to Pam Bondi, the firing of the prosecutor, who is by all accounts conservative, Republican and the President insisting that, in fact, no, he didn't resign. He was fired. Is this not -- I mean, even if you think this is a legit prosecution, hasn't he kind of messed it up already?
URBAN: Well, Anderson, whether or not the President stepped in it is one thing. You know, listen to Mr. Fallon's point. I was one of those people who spoke out against Brendan Carr and what he did in that instance and the heavy handedness of the FCC. I think in this instance there's a process. There's an indictment.
There is, you know, there's a trial, and there's a trial. And if it gets to trial, we'll see it. And Elie and the others are correct that there's a long way between here and there. It may get knocked out. And so there's a process in place to knock it out.
If it is heavy handed, we'll see. We'll see the justice -- justice will be served.
COOPER: Brian?
FALLON: Well, it shouldn't have to get that far. We -- it shouldn't -- we shouldn't be relying on jury nullification here. It should never get this far. The line was already crossed as soon as the president started ordering this prosecution up because he detests Jim Comey.
And then the line was further crossed when they continued with this, even after Donald Trump's own interim attorney -- U.S. Attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia resigned rather than bring this case forward. And a further line was crossed when his personal lawyer, who has no prosecutorial experience, was installed instead, and she decided to override the career officials recommendations that there was no basis to bring a case here.
So we've had multiple lines crossed already. It shouldn't have to get us to the point where it's a jury at the last possible venue, you know, solving for this issue. And again, I bring it back to the point that Donald Trump has also said he wants to see charges brought against Tish James. He's also -- there's a case pending against John Bolton, his own former national security adviser.
And so I worry and fear for the fact that we might be playing whack a mole with all the particular enemies that Donald Trump sees fit to bring prosecutions against. And I'll remind everybody he warned us that he was going to do this during the campaign. And so, as people that value the rule of law, we all have to be ready for this. We all have to be girded for this.
And it's -- our system is only as strong as the willingness of people of conscience to stand up and defend it. And so, yes, I hope the jurors do the right thing. I hope the judge in this case does the right thing before that. But everybody needs to speak out, Republicans and Democrats alike.
COOPER: Brian Fallon, David --
URBAN: Anderson, Anderson, Anderson --
COOPER: Go ahead, David.
URBAN: -- real quickly, though, other than Elie Honig, who's sitting there, I didn't hear anybody do, you know, crying out for justice when Alvin Bragg was bringing bogus charges against Donald Trump or Tish James or any of these other, you know, comical lawsuits which should have been dismissed at Jump Street. Where was the outrage then?
I find it a little rich that there's outrage now when it's Jim Comey, who was -- who laughingly said he went after, you know, Mike Flan (ph), a joke that he, you know, would never got away with that anyplace else.
[20:40:11]
I sat and watched his testimony for hours where he kind of laughed about, you know, what he did as FBI director. Other than Elie Honig, I've never heard anybody call balls and strikes on this. And so it's a little right now there's outrage when it's applied to the other team.
COOPER: David Urban, Brian Fallon, appreciate it. Elie Honig as well. Everyone else stay with us.
Joining us next is Former Federal Prosecutor, Supreme Court Biographer Jeffrey Toobin.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:45:13]
COOPER: More in the breaking news. Former FBI Director James Comey has been indicted. We just learned that his son-in-law, Troy A. Edwards, Jr., resigned from his position as a senior national security prosecutor shortly after Comey was indicted, that according to a letter obtained by CNN. Edwards worked in the same DOJ office that is now prosecuting his father-in-law and submitted his resignation letter to Lindsey Halligan, the former personal lawyer for President Trump, who's been on the job as U.S. Attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia for all of five days.
Joining me now is Former Federal Prosecutor Jeffrey Toobin. Jeffrey, how big a deal is this?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: You know, it's a very big deal, and I think it's worth reflecting on how the power to prosecute is the most profound power that the government has. This isn't about, like, deciding who gets a federal contract.
This isn't about barring someone from being a lawyer or a contractor for the government. This is about the government deciding who goes to prison or who might go to prison. And the fact that it is now being directed from the very top who's going to be prosecuted, and this -- in a process that is in complete violation of how the Justice Department has supposed to work since the 1970s, is a profound and scary thing. And I just think that's a worthwhile frame for the moment we're considering right now.
COOPER: Jeff, I mean, our friend David Urban was just on, and he essentially made the case, which there are probably many, you know, Americans who are supporters of the President who would make that case, which is, well, look, the last administration weaponized the Department of Justice. They went -- well, you know, they went after President Trump on a whole bunch of fronts.
TOOBIN: Well, you know, and you are absolutely right that there are a lot of people who think that way. But I think each criminal case has to be considered on its own merits or lack thereof. I mean, there were two federal cases against President Trump. There was his attempt to overturn, for the first time in American history, an American presidential election.
The other case involved his retention of classified information, classified documents, in the face of repeated, repeated attempts to get it back. I think the merits of those cases, which, of course, never went to trial because Trump was elected president, are very different from this extremely thin indictment that's presented against Jim Comey, that, you know, the facts of which, at least as far as I'm aware, are going to be very hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
COOPER: Yes. Jeff Toobin, thank you. A lot still to get to, a lot of things moving fast right now.
Coming up more in the breaking news, with our legal panel, plus James Comey, in his own words, reacting to this indictment tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
[20:52:29]
COOPER: Former FBI Director James Comey has been indicted. This is his reaction just moments ago.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
JAMES COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: My family and I have known for years that there are costs to standing up to Donald Trump. But we couldn't imagine ourselves living any other way. We will not live on our knees. And you shouldn't either.
Somebody that I love dearly recently said that fear is the tool of a tyrant. And she's right. But I'm not afraid. And I hope you're not either. I hope instead you are engaged, you are paying attention, and you will vote like your beloved country depends upon it. Which it does.
My heart is broken for the Department of Justice. But I have great confidence in the federal judicial system. And I'm innocent. So let's have a trial. And keep the faith.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: The President also weighed in online, saying in all caps, "JUSTICE IN AMERICA," calling Comey, quote, "One of the worst human beings in this country."
Judge Shira Scheindlin and Jessica Roth are back. Judge, there is a standard to actually bring for a case, to actually be brought to a grand jury.
SCHEINDLIN: A standard that a prosecutor must meet. So a prosecutor has to believe that they can prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. The grand jury can find probable cause. But the prosecutor has to be convinced, which is probably why the previous prosecutor wouldn't do it, that there's proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Now, we do need to note here that only 14 grand jurors voted for this. Had to be 16 people there, because that's a quorum. So they couldn't even get the last two votes. So not all of them even found probable cause for these two counts, and one count they wouldn't indict.
COOPER: Jessica, I mean, people talk about, throughout the American history, there being a firewall. Talk about it.
ROTH: Yes, so at least since the Watergate era, where Americans were shocked by the involvement of high-level Department of Justice officials in misdeeds at the behest of the president, there has been this firewall between the White House and the Department of Justice through White House and Department of Justice policies, so not laws, but policies, that were respected, that limited contacts between people at the White House and the Department of Justice about individual prosecutions.
So that any sort of information flow between the two entities was cabined through designated officials, and at the White House, that was primarily the White House counsel's office. And then at the Department of Justice, it was high-level officials like the attorney general and her immediate deputies.
[20:55:06]
Here, what we're seeing is just totally blowing through disregarding that firewall, with the White House, the President himself, reaching out and effectively directing individual prosecutions. That is unprecedented in the post-Watergate era. Frankly, I don't know if there's any precedent before, but it is directly contrary to those norms, policies, and that firewall that has been respected up until now.
COOPER: That would be -- if that was the case, that would be weaponization.
ROTH: That, to me, is the definition of weaponization.
COOPER: Judge Scheindlin, thank you. Jessica Roth, as well.
We have new reporting from Kaitlan Collins coming up. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: If all goes as expected, Former FBI Director James Comey will surrender to federal authorities tomorrow morning. After years of loudly critical public statements by the President, just days after a presidential tweet calling for Comey's prosecution, he was indicted tonight, as you know, on two charges, most notably of giving false statements to Congress.
CNN's Kaitlan Collins has more now on how Comey's surrender will play out and what could come next. She continues our coverage with The Source. I'll see you tomorrow night.
