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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Government Shuts Down as GOP, Democrats Deadlock on Spending; GOP and Democrats Blame Each Other for Government Shutdown; GOP Falsely Claims Democrats Want to Provide Health Care Benefits to Undocumented Immigrants; Interview with Sen. Chris Coons (D-DE); Government Shuts Down as GOP, Dems Deadlock on Spending; J.D. Vance Claims He's in Private Talks With Senate Democrats to End Government Shutdown; Washington Post Reports on Hegseth's Plans to Plug Leaks, Widespread Use of Random Polygraphs and NDAs; Renowned Primatologist, Jane Goodall Dies at 91. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired October 01, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MICHAEL HYLDGAARD, DANISH CHIEF OF DEFENSE: ... about a military task.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice over): But as we flew out of Greenland, it was clear that military task carries a key Danish political goal, not just to deter Moscow and Beijing from ever invading this vast arctic expanse, but also to convince Washington there's no need to take Greenland as its own.
Matthew Chance, CNN, Greenland.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Thanks so much, Matthew, for that important reporting and to all of you for watching.
AC360 starts now.
[20:00:42]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Tonight, on 360 shutdown hardball, neither side budging on what divides them. The White House raising the stakes with blue state spending cuts in federal layoffs now billed as imminent.
Also tonight, fact checking the Republican claim from the President on down that Democrats are holding out to fund health care for undocumented immigrants. And later, new reporting on Defense Secretary Hegseth's new plan to strap top officials to lie detectors to crack down on leaks. We'll have the details, now that they've leaked.
Good evening, everyone. John Berman here in for Anderson. And we begin tonight at the end of day one of the government shutdown with one thing for certain, there will be a day two. The Senate made it so this afternoon when members adjourned ahead of tomorrow's Jewish holiday, they won't be back until Friday.
Their last order of business failing to advance a Republican sponsored bill to fund the government for another seven weeks, with essentially three exceptions: Democrats who want health care funding addressed are blocking the measure, which needs 60 votes to proceed. So, unless more break ranks, the shutdown will continue. And as it does, two things are happening, one, is that the major players on both sides of the aisle, who are often hard to book, they're all over the airwaves, rushing to cameras to stake out positions. And so far, not showing much give.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Democrats want to avert this crisis, but Republicans tried to bully us and it's clear they can't. They don't have the votes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Not yet and not yet clear how that resolve will be affected by what The White House is doing to pour on the pressure by getting ready to implement the large scale federal job cuts they have been threatening.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We believe that layoffs are imminent. They are, unfortunately, a consequence of this government shutdown.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: In fact, that's not normally a consequence of government shutdowns. Furloughs are, so is working without pay, but typical or not, the White House is doing it and the House Speaker today defended it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Look, if Russ Vought has to make tough decisions, whoever is the director of the Office of Management and Budget, in a scenario like this has to make tough choices.
DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR AND POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: We're talking about permanently firing people.
JOHNSON: Well, I'm not sure that hasn't happened before, but if the authority is there and he sees a program that is wasting taxpayer dollars, you and I can both agree the government doesn't do everything in the most efficient manner.
BASH: I mean, constitutionally, that's your job. Article I that is your job.
JOHNSON: Until Chuck Schumer decides to hand the keys to the President, which is literally what he's doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BERMAN: The administration is also using the crisis to either pause or cancel billions of dollars in already appropriated spending in blue states, including 18 billion for two big mass transportation projects here in New York. Vice President Vance was asked about that today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER DOOCY, FOX NEWS CHANNEL SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Does announcing that today mean that you guys are going to squeeze Chuck Schumer's home state until he blinks?
J.D. VANCE, (R) VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Look, I haven't talked to Russ about this, this morning, but look, I'm sure that Russ is heartbroken about the fact that he's unable to give certain things to certain constituencies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: The Russ he is referring to is Russell Vought, the White House Budget Director. The Vice-President was also asked about the racist A.I. videos of Minority Leader Jeffries the President has been posting on social media, this is the latest from today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Is it helpful to post pictures of Leader Jeffries in a sombrero if you're trying to have good faith talks with him?
VANCE: Oh, I think it's funny. The President's joking and we're having a good time. You can negotiate in good faith while also poking a little bit of fun at some of the absurdities of the Democrats' positions. And even, you know, poking some fun at the absurdity of the Democrats themselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: With thousands of federal workers now either working without pay, not working at all, or even facing layoffs, and millions of Americans not able to access federal services, it's hard to see this as an opportunity to, as the Vice-President said, be having a good time, but there it is.
As to the apparent message behind the memes, the Democrats are shutting down the government to give health care to unauthorized immigrants. Well, we'll have a fact check on that shortly from CNN's Daniel Dale.
First, though, CNN's Manu Raju starts us off tonight from Capitol Hill. Manu, you've been speaking to Democratic lawmakers. Does it sound like they're having any second thoughts about the shutdown strategy?
[20:05:03]
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, right now, no, John. In fact, we're looking at about universe of about ten Democrats. Those are the ten Democrats who voted back in March to extend government funding until the end of September.
So far, just three of those Democrats have voted for the Republican bill to extend government funding for seven weeks without any conditions. The other seven Democrats are still in line with their Democratic leader who are demanding that Obamacare subsidy is said to expire at the end of the year be extended because they say that with open enrolment beginning, people's premiums only increase, they want this dealt with now. They also want to reverse those Medicaid cuts that were in act as part of Donald Trump's One Big Beautiful Bill Act, but Republicans say, that should not be dealt with at all in this negotiation.
This should be pushed until later. Reopen the government now, then they could talk about all those issues later. The question is going to be, will those Democrats feel political pressure as this bill comes back to floor for a vote after vote after vote. And in talking of Democrats today, let me get it clear, they're not concerned about The White House's pressure campaign or the threats of firing federal workers, contending that The White House would have done that anyway.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RUBEN GALLEGO (D-AZ): Their threat doesn't work on me. What I cheer about is the fact that they're going to increase the cost on working class Americans.
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT) There is no question that this shutdown will be painful but we need to take a stand.
SEN. MARK WARNER,(D-VA): I've actually been surprised the fact that federal workers have felt so using Russ Vought's term terrorized by this administration, that they may be the strongest group yet saying you've got to pushback. Now, the question will become, will they have that same view three weeks from now. l don't know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: And there is a sign there, John that this could last for some time into next week. They don't come back here in session in the Senate until Friday. At that time we expect a vote again on that same Republican bill. If that fails it may even go home for the weekend and come back next week, which means we can go into week two of this shutdown.
BERMAN: Is anyone talking to each other at least? Any bipartisan talks?
RAJU: No, there's actually not, John. There were some informal discussions by some members from both parties on the Senate floor because there's a lot of unease among Senators but that has not been authorized by Republican leadership and Republican leaders are saying very clearly, the one option is the bill that passed the House, the seven-week extension of government funding, that's it, nothing else. The question is they say, if Democrats come on board.
BERMAN: All right, Manu Raju, up on Capitol Hills, thank you. Now, let's take a look at how the White House is approaching the negotiations. CNN chief White House correspondent, anchor of "The Source," Kaitlan Collins is with us now. So, how does the White House -- the shutdown, one day, what are you hearing?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, they are looking at a number of five. Because that is all -- the only amount of Democratic Senators that they need to get over the line to vote for this clean funding bill in order to government and move on from this issue. And I was talking to White House officials today and they do believe that they are going to get there.
Now, the question is really, who they believe exactly who is going to crossover. We saw a few Democrats doing so last night, saying that they don't agree with what the White House and the Republicans are saying but they don't just believe a government shutdown is worth this fight over the Obamacare subsidies and the premiums and the questions about what's going to happen there.
And so, what the White House is trying to do, and what they are focusing on is the messaging and the pressure campaign, and that's coming in multiple ways including with that surprise appearance by the Vice-President at today's press briefing, but also with the moves that are happening behind the scenes and then being publicly announced, John, like including canceling billions of dollars' worth of contracts for climate initiatives in Democratic-led states as you saw Russ Vought, the budget director announced tonight is coming from the Energy Department.
And so, they are trying to put the pressure on in different ways, ways like that and they are relying on the Budget chief Russ Vought to do so. And so, I talked to White House officials who don't believe this is going to be an extended or lengthy shutdown. But they just don't know, John, and that's kind of the issue with these shutdowns, is that you don't really know who is going to hit the blame from voters, who is going to be hurt the most and of course, how they are going to eventually get out this. Whether Republicans or Democrats, we've asked that question to both of them and they have not really been able to articulate what the exit ramp is, is going to be here.
But in the meantime, The White House is making clear they are going to try to apply pressure to get five Democratic Senators to say, you know what, this shutdown isn't worth it, we're going to vote for this. Whether or not they're successful, we don't know yet.
BERMAN: So, we played sound for Vice-President Vance, not just defending that A.I. racist video of Minority Leader Jeffries wearing a sombrero but also like celebrating that video and it was playing at a loop in the briefing room today. What are you hearing from the inside about that?
COLLINS: It wasn't only displaying on a loop in the briefing room. If you've never been in the press briefing room for this, who haven't, there are loud speakers overhead so you can hear announcements or what's being said or if there's an even going on with the President, in the Rose Garden for example, they were playing that Mariachi music as well over the loud speakers for all the press that was coming in and out of The White House today inside the press briefing room.
It just kind of gives you a window into how they're dealing with this and how they believe they have the upper hand when it comes to the messaging here. And also, kind of how things have changed from the first time Donald Trump was in office.
[20:10:27]
I mean, there was a shutdown then. I remember all 35 days of it as the President said at the beginning, he'd be proud to shut the government down. And then it ended, obviously, with him not getting the money for his border wall. This time, you know, there's a moment here. They're being heavily criticized over this, over these posts by the President, by Democrats. And instead of backing off or apologizing for it, they're leaning into it and they're playing the music over loudspeakers and on repeat inside the briefing room, because they simply don't care about that criticism.
BERMAN: All right, Kaitlan Collins, thank you very much. And we'll see you at the top of the hour for "The Source."
With us now, CNN political commentator, republican strategist, Shermichael Singleton and former Democratic South Carolina State Rep and CNN political commentator Bakari Sellers. Shermichael, let me start with you. How do you think this ends? Any signs today?
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, not in the immediate, but look, I think the American people are ultimately going to blame Democrats. I think there's a bit of a logical fallacy here from the argument coming from my friends on the left.
We were at this place several months ago, John, and when we were, Democrats, accused Republicans of not caring about veterans, of not caring about hardworking people, of not caring for children who rely on snap benefits for food. And yet here they are unwilling to compromise even though you had Senator Thune, you had House Majority Leader Johnson, even the President, all three leaders on the Republican side have signaled that they're willing to negotiate with Democrats as it pertains to health care as long as we leave the government open.
So, why wouldn't my Democratic friends want to do that? And even "The New York Times," for goodness sakes, have wrote a column that came out two days ago that said, this is actually a clean C.R.. And yet, Democrats are saying it's not. They're playing politics is a bit hypocritical.
If the government stays shut down, the blame rests with Democrats.
BERMAN: Bakari, I'm betting you have a different view.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I mean, I just think that I love Shermichael we went to the same institution, but his argument is just flat out wrong. I mean, it's the only talking points they have. I think most Americans look at the T.V. tonight and they're like, wait a minute. Republicans have the White House, they have the Senate, and they have the House of Representatives. They kind of own this and everybody talks about the first C.R., even "The New York Times," Shermichael I've been on T.V. a few times today, but they don't articulate or point out what happened between then and now.
We had this Big, Beautiful Bill, and what people don't point out is after the passage of the Big Beautiful Bill, what's going to happen? They put insane cuts on people who are receiving Medicaid, which hurt federally funded health care centers, cuts back on people getting Medicaid. They also eliminated the subsidies that go to individuals on the Affordable Care Act.
What that means is that now, those prices, those premiums are going to go up. And so, the irony in this argument is that Democrats actually have a clear message of what they're fighting for. We're fighting for individuals to maintain their right to health care, point blank period. This isn't a procedural argument. This isn't anything else. We're fighting for those same individuals, as Shermichael laid out. We're fighting for them to have access to quality care.
What we're seeing right now, though, is this authoritarian way of trying to overthrow some constitutional order. That was a lot of big words. I sounded like a King Jeffries. I got to stop that. But what we're trying to do right now, and what we see right now, when individuals are going down this path, is you have people like Russ Vought who we don't even know who that is. None of the three of us voted for Russ Vought ever to do anything, but he is actually going in and cutting billions of dollars of funding just from blue states.
Imagine if Barack Obama did that. Imagine if Joe Biden did that. Imagine if we had somebody who's an unelected bureaucrat go in and cut lawfully allocated funds from blue states. That is what authoritarians do. That's what they're doing now. And Democrats are simply fighting for health care. I've been very critical of Hakeem and Chuck, but I'm glad that they're showing the fortitude now to at least fight for something for the American people.
BERMAN: Shermichael
SINGLETON: You know, I see we're moving the goalpost a little bit here. Let's stick with the C.R.. They're typically around four C.R.s that are passed every single year according to the Congressional Budget Office going back 20 plus years now, Democrats have an opportunity to negotiate with Republicans on health care if they so choose.
Now, Republicans are certainly not going to be in support of federal funds being used by states to cover emergency health care visits by illegal immigrants, and I'm willing to say that most of the American people will probably be in agreement.
SELLERS: That's not true. That's not true though.
SINGLETON: Bakari, that's absolutely true. Because anytime someone who doesn't have health care and they're not a citizen, they go to the emergency room. The state uses state and federal funds to cover that cost. You know that as well as I do.
SELLERS: But that's not what we're talking about. That literally is not that's first of all, let's just fact check this for one moment. Let's fact check this for one moment.
[20:15:09]
But that's not what we are talking about. That literally is not -- first of all, let's just fact check this for one moment. Let's fact check this for this one moment.
SINGLETON: Go ahead. Factcheck it.
SELLERS: The one dollar that we are talking about -- the one dollar that we are talking about is going to illegal immigrants. When we are talking about the cuts in Medicaid funds or federally subsidized health care centers, yes.
When someone who doesn't have legal status goes to the emergency room, yes, they get care.
SINGLETON: So does that not -- is that not coverage?
SELLERS: And if you want to argue -- no, no.
SINGLETON: Is that not coverage then, Bakari?
SELLERS: But if you want to argue with me --
SINGLETON: At the baseline, is that not coverage?
SELLERS: No, it's called humanity.
SINGLETON: Okay, okay.
SELLERS: And if you want to argue with me on national T.V. -- if you want to argue with me on national T.V. right now, that someone who contributes or a person who contributes over $28 billion to our economy gets sick, gets in an accident, has a heart attack, goes to the emergency room, doesn't deserve care? You can rest on that laurel.
But also what I am --
SINGLETON: I understand --
BERMAN: Hang on, guys!
SINGLETON: I understand the appeals to emotion here.
SELLERS: The Medicaid cuts --
SINGLETON: I understand the appeals to emotion here.
SELLERS: Let me let me put a pin on it. Yes. Go ahead. Go ahead. Let me put a pin on it. The Medicaid cuts that we are talking about are keeping open those federally subsidized health care centers in poor and rural areas. That is what were specifically talking about.
Emergency room care, I would assume that me, you and John can all agree, regardless on your status, you deserve to get treated when you're having an emergency.
BERMAN: All right, gentlemen. Let me -- hang on, hang on, hang on a second because I want to move on to a subject -- I do want to say thank you. I want to say that Daniel Dale will be doing a fact check on some of these claims very shortly, so we are going to get to the bottom of some of this.
But Shermichael, while I have you here, and before we go with this, I do want to ask you what you think about this video that Vice President Vance is celebrating right now, not just defending, but celebrating of Leader Jeffries. What do you think about that?
SINGLETON: I mean, look, I think the message is quite clear and simple what the administration is articulating, Democrats are for illegal immigrants and Republicans in the administration are simply for the American people.
We saw this sort of same symbolism visually in November of last year, in October of last year, when the President ran ads attacking the Vice President, saying she is for they/them, we are for you. It is the same thing.
BERMAN: All right, Shermichael Singleton, Bakari Sellers, thank you all for being with us tonight.
One thing I know America loves is discussions about C.R.s almost as much as omnibuses. Appreciate it.
SINGLETON: Thanks, John.
SELLERS: With Morehouse men -- with Morehouse men.
SINGLETON: Good to see you, Bakari.
BERMAN: All right, I am glad we are all here for this reunion. I am glad I was invited.
Next, as we mentioned, more on the Medicaid question. Who gets what kind of health care? Daniel Dale, as we said, keeping them honest.
And later, leaked new details on Defense Secretary Hegseth's new plan for stopping the people close to him from leaking.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:22:02]
BERMAN: A closer look now at the debate our two political commentators launched just before the break over the shutdown in health care funding. In fairness, both were kinder to the actual facts than some. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: One of the things they want to do is they want to give incredible Medicare -- Cadillac -- the Cadillac Medicare to illegal immigrants, and what that does is it keeps them coming into our country.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Democrats are fighting to give health care benefits to illegal aliens.
J.D. VANCE (R), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: They want to give health care benefits to illegal aliens.
I think it is preposterous, Martha. And I think the American people really should pay attention to the fact that Democrats are threatening to shut down the entire government because they want to give hundreds of billions of dollars of health care benefits to illegal aliens.
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): They want to restore taxpayer funded benefits. American taxpayer funded benefits to illegal aliens.
COLLINS: You're saying they want to give free health care to people who are in the United States illegally?
JOHNSON: That is exactly what the effect will be. Absolutely, what will happen if that counter-proposal was enacted is illegal aliens would be paid for, American taxpayers' hard-earned dollars would be paying for benefits for illegal aliens. Again, we are not doing that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: But keeping them honest, that's simply not true. What Democrats are pushing is to continue the federal subsidies to help Americans afford their Obamacare coverage, which are set to expire at the end of this year, and to reverse deep cuts to Medicaid that Trump signed into law in his sweeping domestic policy bill. And, point of fact, undocumented immigrants are not eligible for federally funded health benefits.
CNN's resident factchecker, Daniel Dale, is here with the details.
All right, Daniel, what do you make of this claim by Republicans that Democrats are trying to give health care benefits to immigrants who are in the country illegally?
DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: John, its highly misleading at best. So here is what is actually happening. Democrats are pushing for an extension of the Enhanced Obamacare Premium Subsidies that are scheduled to expire at the end of the year. But does that mean that they are pushing for free health care for illegal immigrants? It does not. And that's because undocumented people are banned from the Obamacare exchanges. So, it is certainly banned from those subsidies.
The Democrats are also pushing to reverse the Trump administration's health care cuts, particularly Medicaid cuts that Trump signed into law in his so-called One Big, Beautiful Bill earlier this year. But does that mean the Democrats are pushing for free health care for undocumented people? Illegal aliens? It also does not.
Undocumented people are also banned from federal Medicaid insurance plans, though some states do provide some state funded coverage. Now, Vice President Vance, John keeps insisting that the so-called debunkers are wrong, and he and the administration are right.
But listen to the very thin piece of supposed evidence he offered among other comments earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANCE: If you're an American citizen, you've been to a hospital in the last few years, you probably noticed that wait times are especially large. And very often somebody who is there in the emergency room waiting is an illegal alien, very often a person who can't even speak English.
Why do those people get health care benefits at hospitals paid for by American citizens? The answer is a decision made by the Biden administration that the Trump administration, working with congressional Republicans undid.
We turned off that money spigot to health care funding for illegal aliens. The Democrats, in their legislative texts, want to turn it back on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:27]
DALE: Some very big issues here, John.
First of all, hospitals have been required for decades under a law signed by Republican President Ronald Reagan to provide health care to undocumented people and others who show up with emergency issues in the E.R. without regard to their legal status, without regard to their ability to pay. So this was not some Joe Biden decision, as the vice President claimed.
Second of all, the federal money for emergency care goes to reimburse hospitals to help them cover the cost of providing that emergency care to people who can't pay. It is not like comprehensive health insurance for undocumented people.
Third, President Trump's Big, Beautiful Bill reduced that federal matching funding. It did not eliminate it, as Vance keeps suggesting. And fourth, and I think this is maybe the biggest point in summary, Democrats push to reverse this Trump move, give hospitals back a higher level of funding, would not give extra services to undocumented people. Undocumented immigrants who are already eligible for this mandatory health care, emergency care, even without a regular insurance coverage, they would continue to be eligible as they are today.
So there is not some sort of increase in benefits that Democrats are proposing here as part of this shutdown battle. BERMAN: Daniel Dale, thank you, as always.
DALE: Thank you.
BERMAN: And for the latest on where talks stand in the Senate, I am joined now by Democratic Senator Chris Coons of Delaware.
Senator, thank you so much for being with us. I saw, you know, senators on the Senate floor today chit chatting with each other. It looked like there were some informal talks going on. Were you privy to any of those conversations?
SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): Yes, John, I talked to a number of colleagues today. As your viewers would expect, I am working to try and find a path forward. But let's be clear, the reason we are having this government shutdown is because Democrats are standing up for health care for Americans and their families, and Republicans are refusing to change direction.
Decisions they've made, votes they've cast are making Americans sicker and poorer. President Trump ran for President saying he would lower Americans' costs and make America wealthy again.
But today he imposed tariffs on imported drugs and pharmaceuticals that will double costs for those taking these lifesaving drugs, because of the so-called Big Beautiful Bill.
Loss of Medicaid coverage is going to throw millions of Americans off of health care and starting this month, the loss of the Obamacare subsidies is going to raise health insurance rates for millions by double digits.
What does all this mean? Democrats are working to find a way forward where we will make changes that restore health care and cut costs for millions of American families.
As your factchecker just made clear, John, President Trump and Vice President Vance are lying about Democrats fighting to give health care to illegal aliens. For years, it has been against the law for someone who is undocumented in the United States to benefit from, to be enrolled in Medicare, Medicaid, or the Affordable Care Act exchanges. That's not what this is about.
This is about fighting for health care that's affordable for Americans.
BERMAN: So almost all Democrats voted along with you the last couple of days, but there were three holdouts, including your Democratic colleague, Senator Catherine Cortez-Masto from Nevada. I want you to listen to what she said why she voted for this Republican spending plan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO (D-NV): I don't see actually engaging in a shutdown that's going to harm people to help people. Our goal should be to help everyone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So why do you think she is wrong?
COONS: Look, John, I respect my colleague, Catherine Cortez-Masto, and I understand that she is concerned about the impact on federal workers, on law enforcement, on Armed Forces, of going without pay. But the health care cuts that President Trump and the Republicans who control Congress are imposing on the American people will impact everyone and for a long time, they will increase emergency room wait times. They will increase health care insurance costs. They have already cut billions of dollars out of research into everything from Alzheimer's to childhood cancer.
We need to make a stand to reverse these harmful cuts, and I think now is the time to do that.
BERMAN: Any conversations with Republicans on the Senate floor? Are they yielding any fruit? Do you feel like you're making any headway?
COONS: Yes, I talked with a dozen Republican colleagues, folks who serve with me on the Appropriations Committee, folks I've known from the 15 years I've served there and there is agreement that we should be willing to negotiate an extension of the Affordable Care Act subsidies and a reform to them. Republicans want to reform them, Democrats want to extend them. And they're insisting as of now, that we all vote to reopen the government, and then we will start negotiating.
[20:30:30]
I'm encouraging them to be serious and concrete about who will negotiate how over what and with what deadline. I'm also urging them to put on the Senate floor the healthcare spending bill that has already passed the Appropriations Committee by a big bipartisan margin, 26-3, that would reject Trump's devastating cuts to the National Institutes of Health and to the Centers for Disease Control.
Passing that bill that would restore tens of billions of dollars of threatened cuts to these key healthcare agencies would be, I think, a great sign of progress towards changing course away from these disastrous healthcare cuts.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN CO-HOST OF "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Well, we'll see if either side budges. Senator Chris Coons from Delaware, thanks for being with us tonight.
Up next, new reporting on the techniques Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth plans to use to try and plug internal leaks, including polygraph tests. Also ahead, remembering the extraordinary life and work of Jane Goodall, who revolutionized the study of primates.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:36:12] BERMAN: Some remarkable new reporting tonight on defense secretary Pete Hegseth's long-running battle with his own staff and top advisers, as well as the country's top military commanders. It comes by the way of The Washington Post. There's the headline, "Pentagon Plans widespread random polygraphs, NDAs to staunch leaks." Random testing, and quoting from the report, all military service members, civilian employees and contract workers within the office of the Defense Secretary and the joint staff, estimated to be more than 5,000 personnel would be required to sign a non-disclosure agreement that prohibits the release of non-public information without approval or through a defined process. That's according to a draft memo from Deputy Defense Secretary Steve Feinberg.
Now, the polygraph plan is laid out in a separate document, also from Feinberg. Again, this is according to The Post, and this builds on earlier CNN reporting that Secretary Hegseth had threatened then Acting Joint Chiefs Chairman, Chris Grady, with polygraph testing because he believed Admiral Grady was leaking to undermine him.
Also, that his office had rolled out a policy earlier this year requiring Pentagon officials across the service to sign non-disclosure agreements before being read in on projects, initiatives and other work products. And yes, it appears that all of this from us and from The Post was leaked.
Now, with us now is Massachusetts Democratic Congressman, Marine combat veteran Seth Moulton, who serves on the House Armed Services Committee. And Congressman, what's your response to this reporting from The Washington Post? Do you think this reported plan to have people sign NDAs, to take random polygraph tests, is it necessary? Aren't there already penalized -- penalties for releasing unauthorized information?
REP. SETH MOULTON, (D-MA) HOUSE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Yes, it's completely against the law. And the one person, of course, who we know has released, not just unauthorized, but deeply classified information in this Pentagon is the Secretary of Defense. He did something that would get any private in the military thrown in prison, and yet he's trying to cover it up. That's what he is doing. This is about a cover- up for the Secretary of Defense. It's not about releasing classified information.
BERMAN: If it does go through as reported, what would the effect be on the rank and file, do you think?
MOULTON: Well, the fact of the matter is that when you get a clearance to see classified information, you are essentially signing the most powerful NDA, the most powerful non-disclosure agreement in the world. It's completely illegal to disclose classified information. And again, the only person who seems to be above the law here is the secretary himself.
So as a practical matter, this doesn't really change anything when it comes to the NDA, but the fact that they're going to go around and randomly polygraph people in the institution just lays bare the fact that there is zero trust in this Pentagon. And on the Armed Services Committee, we have heard this for months, that there is deep distrust of Hegseth and his leadership amongst all the military officials at the Pentagon today.
BERMAN: When it comes, after the release of this government memo that would sharply restrict reporting at the Pentagon, requiring National Security report is to sign a pledge not to obtain or publish this unauthorized material, is this what's going to stop leaks, do you think?
MOULTON: I mean, no. But again, it seems to be that when there are leaks, it's actually to protect our troops, right? If the secretary of defense is releasing top secret information about airstrikes to the public, through unclassified channels that could be tapped by our adversaries and used to shoot down those pilots. When that information gets out and the secretary gets caught, that's fundamentally good for our troops. It keeps them safe.
[20:40:00]
But the broader story here is that Hegseth is afraid of the truth getting out. And it reminds me of when we went into Iraq and I was a young lieutenant, had never been in a war before. And we had reporters embedded with us, and a lot of guys asked like, "Hey, why are these reporters with us?" And our commander said, because we have nothing to hide, because we're trying to do the right thing, because we are going to uphold all the rules and regulation and the laws of war, and we don't mind sharing that.
In fact, we want the American public to see the principles that we are following in fighting this difficult war. This is completely the opposite. This is not about laying bare what's going on in the Pentagon because it's a good story to tell. This is about covering up all the missteps and mistakes by this secretary of defense and his team.
BERMAN: I was embedded with a marine infantry battalion for the invasion of Iraq in 2003. So I know what that relationship can be like. Congressman, The Wall Street Journal is reporting that the United States is going to provide Ukraine with intelligence for long- range strikes on Russia's energy infrastructure. You of course have been to Ukraine. You supported increasing U.S. military aid for that country. What do you think of this decision?
MOULTON: Well, it's certainly a step in the right direction for the Trump administration, which has been rightfully accused often of actually supporting the wrong side in this war. I mean, remember, this is a president who has actually blamed the war on Ukraine, who has embarrassed our ally Ukraine in favor of supporting Vladimir Putin and propping him up. So, this is step in the right direction on a sort of narrow policy goal, but we still don't know if the fundamental policy of this administration is for Ukraine to win or not.
And it's worth saying that on the Armed Services Committee, we used to have debates with the Biden administration officials about whether they were doing enough to let Ukraine win, to ensure that they win. As some people say, we understand you want Ukraine to win, but it seems like you're only doing enough to just make sure they don't lose. The problem with the Trump administration is they won't even say if it's their policy for Ukraine to win the war.
I have asked this question directly of Trump administration officials in both classified and unclassified sessions as recently as a couple weeks ago, and they would not say that it's actually Trump's policy to allow Ukraine to win the war. So, we can be excited about this step in the right direction, but it doesn't really say much about the overall administration posture towards Ukraine.
BERMAN: Congressman Seth Moulton from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, great to have you on tonight. Thank you.
MOULTON: Good to see you.
BERMAN: Just ahead. Remembering Jane Goodall, who dedicated her life to helping people understand wild chimpanzees.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANE GOODALL, ENGLISH ZOOLOGIST AND PRIMATOLOGIST: They are more like us than any other creature. Their brain is just like ours, but a little bit smaller. They're capable of all kinds of intellectual things that we used to think unique to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:47:37]
BERMAN: We learned today that Jane Goodall has died. She was 91. Her groundbreaking work in the study of chimpanzees changed the field, revolutionizing our understanding of primates, their lives, personality traits, and emotions. CNN's Randi Kaye has more on her life and legacy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOODALL: My dream, when I was 11-years-old, I will grow up, go to Africa, live with animals and write books about them.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Jane Goodall, that dream came true. In 1957, Goodall met famed anthropologist, Louis Leaky, who hired her as his assistant and asked her to study chimpanzees in Tanzania. By 1960, Goodall had arrived for her studies in Africa.
GOODALL: There was nobody out there doing anything. So what I knew was, I've got to get the chimpanzees to trust me.
KAYE (voice-over): Those early days with the chimpanzees would change the course of Goodall's life and lead to landmark discoveries. Goodall was first to inform the world that chimps ate meat. They had long been thought to be vegetarian. They also made and used their own tools.
GOODALL: This was where I was meant to be.
KAYE (voice-over): Goodall was fascinated by their intelligence and spoke about it with Anderson Cooper in 2007.
GOODALL: Show that their brain is just like ours, but a little bit smaller. They are capable of all kinds of intellectual things that we used to think unique to us. They have emotions, personalities, histories, live for 60 years, teach us a lot about ourselves.
KAYE (voice-over): With each discovery, her love of chimps seemed to deepen. To Goodall, the chimps weren't specimens or numbers. She gave them names. Her work was eventually featured in a 2017 documentary, simply called "Jane".
GOODALL: There were some who would try to discredit my observations because I was a young untrained girl.
KAYE (voice-over): Goodall was born in London, England. She got her PhD in Ethology from Cambridge University, despite the fact she didn't have an undergraduate degree. By 1977, Goodall had founded the Jane Goodall Institute and later, an environmental program for young people, she called "Roots & Shoots." Her work revolutionized the study of primates and her time in the jungle not only changed how scientists studied animals, but also opened doors for women.
In 2002, the United Nations designated her a messenger of peace. In a statement on social media, the U.N. mourned her death writing, "Goodall worked tirelessly for our planet and all its inhabitants, leaving an extraordinary legacy for humanity and nature."
[20:50:00]
In 2004, Goodall had been appointed Dame of the British Empire. Time Magazine put her on the cover in 2021, after naming her one of the world's most influential people in 2019. In January this year, she was awarded the U.S. Presidential Medal of Freedom. A few years back, Goodall was asked about dying during an interview with the How To Academy Science.
GOODALL: When you die, there's either nothing, which well fine, there's nothing or there's something. And I said, I just happen to feel because of experiences I've had that there's something. And if there is, what greater adventure can there be than finding out what that something is?
KAYE (voice-over): Jane Goodall was 91.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BERMAN: A life well lived. Coming up, Anderson speaks with Tony Shalhoub about his new CNN series, "Breaking Bread" and gets an education.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST OF "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Is dry bread very different than wheat bread?
TONY SHALHOUB, CNN HOST OF " TONY SHALHOUB BREAKING BREAD": Sure. I mean, it's different in -- can't believe I'm having this conversation with a grown man.
(LAUGH)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:55:55]
BERMAN: This Sunday, CNN is premiering a new food travel series, "Tony Shaloub Breaking Bread." The Emmy and Tony-winning star of Monk in "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel" takes viewers on a culinary journey where food is only the first stop. The premier episode is right here in New York. And Anderson sat down with Tony last week at Massara On Park, a restaurant where Tony is an investor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: I've never actually had rye bread. I'm very limited in what I eat. Wow.
(LAUGH)
COOPER: I mean, I've seen rye bread.
SHALOUB: But you live in New York City, right?
COOPER: Yeah, I know, but I figured like, I like we bread sort of. So --
SHALOUB: Wow.
COOPER: Why do I need rye bread? I mean, this is --
(LAUGH)
SHALOUB: I don't really have an answer.
COOPER: I know. There's no -- yeah, I'm hopeless. I'm really hopeless.
SHALOUB: Do you --
COOPER: I have the pal of a five-year-old, actually more like a three-year-old because my five-year-old actually eats more than I do. Yeah.
Is rye bread very different than wheat bread?
SHALOUB: Sure. I mean, it's different in --
(LAUGH)
SHALOUB: Can't believe I'm having this conversation with a grown man.
(LAUGH)
SHALOUB: I almost thought of you as so sophisticated.
(LAUGH)
COOPER: I know. I know.
SHALOUB: And yet, I --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: This is a great failing of my life. Yeah. You know, I'm not -- when it comes to food, I truly, truly have not tasted a lot of things.
SHALOUB: What -- I -- can I ask --
COOPER: Sure.
SHALOUB: I don't want to pry.
COOPER: No. Yeah.
SHALOUB: But what do you eat?
COOPER: Well, I'll just tell you a couple of the other things I've only learned in like, probably the last 10 to 15 years of my life. I did not know that pickles were cucumbers. I've been forced to eat pickles now just because people have forced me to, but I had never tasted a pickle for a long time because that --
SHALOUB: Why is that, I wonder?
COOPER: I just saw no point to it. And also, the whole fishing round in a jar with the juice just seemed disgusting.
SHALOUB: Well, you can use a fork.
COOPER: I mean, I know, but it just seems like other people will probably have been fishing around.
SHALOUB: Oh, yeah. No, I don't like to do that.
COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. And I haven't really had things that you have to rip out of their homes. So like oysters -- I mean, I've tried oysters and stuff, but I don't know. That's -- it just seems like I get a lot of the sea with like an oyster.
SHALOUB: I think that's the point though.
COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love the ocean, but I don't know.
SHALOUB: But you don't want to eat it.
COOPER: I don't want to eat it. Yes.
(LAUGH)
SHALOUB: If I may?
COOPER: Yeah.
SHALOUB: Start with a pumpernickel. Pumpernickel is --
COOPER: I've never had that either.
SHALOUB: It's very --
COOPER: Is that also a -- is that a subset or rye?
SHALOUB: Yeah. It's a rye.
COOPER: OK. I've always wondered.
SHALOUB: It's the dark brown, you know the bagels, they make --
COOPER: Right.
SHALOUB: -- pumpernickel bagels, they make loafs of, you know --
COOPER: Right.
SHALOUB: Or you know, maybe you should start with -- start with marble rye, because that's kind of a little bit of both, you know.
COOPER: OK.
SHALOUB: You're --
COOPER: It's like a baby step.
SHALOUB: Yeah.
COOPER: Tiptoeing into the rye family.
(LAUGH)
SHALOUB: You want to avoid a shock to your system.
(LAUGH)
COOPER: But yeah, I'm -- I truly am embarrassing. No one's going to give me a food show ever.
(LAUGH)
COOPER: So the phrase 'breaking bread' means kind of coming together, joining people together? SHALOUB: It's a communal thing. Yeah. It is like we sit down, we sort of set -- maybe hopefully, we set our differences aside or our disagreements even.
COOPER: Right.
SHALOUB: And we -- we share and we offer.
COOPER: Right.
SHALOUB: And it is a nourishment. It's a nourishment in a number of ways.
COOPER: What I have recently discovered in the world of food, and I know this is ridiculous statement, is olive oil. Like olive oil is the greatest thing ever. I've decided.
SHALOUB: I totally agree.
COOPER: I feel like I could -- I would drink it all day, like I could do shots of it.
SHALOUB: You could. Some people do. People do.
COOPER: I did a couple of a while --
(LAUGH)
COOPER: -- because I was -- I read, it was so healthy. I was like, oh, I should do shots. And then I'm like, OK, this seems extreme. But --
SHALOUB: Was it -- I mean, did you feel better or -- ?
COOPER: I mean, I think it's good. Like everybody says for brain health, it's really good. And they're like, there's no reason not to be drinking olive oil and using it in cooking and stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got olive oil, Chef.
(LAUGH)
COOPER: Oh wow.
SHALOUB: What a -- what a great -- what a great idea.
(LAUGH)
SHALOUB: Here we go.
COOPER: Wow. Do people actually do olive oil shots?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, they do now.
(LAUGH)
(CROSSTALK)
SHALOUB: They do today.
COOPER: Wow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Enjoy, guys. All right?
SHALOUB: Thanks.
COOPER: See, I mean, I could do shots of that all day. That's really good.
SHALOUB: Super smooth.
COOPER: It's really smooth. Who knew? Olive oil shot --
