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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Trump Confirms He has Authorized Covert CIA Actions in Venezuela; Trump: Considering Strikes on Drug Cartels in Venezuela; CNN Investigates Crypto ATM Scams and Confronts Swindler; Hamas Moving to Reassert Its Dominance in Gaza; Members of Young Republican Groups Exchange Messages That Include Racist and Hate-filled Comments; Judge Halts Trump's Planned Layoffs During Shutdown, Calls Them Unlawful; New Book "1929" Looks at America's Largest Stock Market Crash; Woman Shot After Allegedly Ramming Federal Agents, Please Not Guilty; Shutdown Day 15, Senate Fails to Pass Funding Bill. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired October 15, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ELEX MICHAELSON, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Newsom and Schwarzenegger both told me that they still have a cordial, respectful relationship. They just have a disagreement on this particular issue.
California voters have until November 4th to either return their ballot at spots like this or vote in person -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Elex, thank you very much. Our newest anchor here at CNN, and thanks so much to all of you for joining us. AC360 starts now.
[20:00:26]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360. Breaking news: After a fifth U.S. boat strike, the President confirms he authorized CIA action inside Venezuela and now says, he'll stop drugs from there by sea and by land.
Also tonight, CNN investigates as more and more Americans fall victim to crypto scammers. Our Kyung Lah confronts one of them, and he's not shy about what he does.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: How much crypto money are you transferring through various electronic wallets?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like a couple of million dollars in a month?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And later, new reporting on those racist texts by members of the group young Republicans and the Vice-President's new claim that it's just, "what kids do." Well, it turns out they're not kids, and they're texting about loving Hitler and calling other Americans, "the watermelon people."
Good evening, thanks for joining us.
Barely a day after the fifth and latest U.S. airstrike on an alleged drug boat of Venezuela, the President signaled more of the same and beyond. Speaking from the Oval Office late today, the President was asked about "New York Times" reporting that he had secretly authorized covert CIA action against the regime of Nicolas Maduro inside Venezuela.
In addition to confirming the story, his justification for the boat strike which have now killed more than 2,000 people and are drawing some criticism from some Republicans is worth listening to specifically because in this answer, at least, drugs came second.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED O'KEEFE, CBS NEWS: Why did you authorize the CIA to go into Venezuela? And is there more information you can share about these strikes on the alleged --
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, I can't do that, but I authorized for two reasons, really. Number one, they have emptied their prisons into the United States of America. They came in through the border. They came in because we had an open border policy.
And as soon as I heard that, I said, a lot of these countries, they're not the only country, but they're the worst abuser. And they've entered there. They've allowed thousands and thousands of prisoners, mental institution -- people from mental institutions, insane asylums, emptied out into the United States. We're bringing them back. But that's a really bad -- and they did it at a level that probably many, many countries have done it, but not like Venezuela. They were down and dirty and the other thing are drugs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The other thing, as the President put it, it happens to be the administration's stated reason for why the strikes are, in the words of The White House spokeswoman, Anna Kelly, "fully consistent with the law of armed conflict."
She said the U.S. is acting, "against the operations of a designated terrorist organization taken," she says, "In defense of vital U.S. national interest and in the collective self-defense of other nations who've long suffered due to the narcotics trafficking and violent cartel activities of such organizations.
Now, whatever the justification, the use of lethal force has already drawn legislative pushback from Republican Senators Rand Paul and Lisa Murkowski, who tried and failed, along with Senate Democrats, to force a vote on the issue last week.
Today, if the President is to be believed, this may soon be more than a sea campaign.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: We've almost totally stopped it by sea, now, we'll stop it by land.
REPORTER: What's the next step?
TRUMP: But it never worked. It never worked when you did it in a very politically correct manner.
REPORTER: What's the next step in this war on cartels? Are you considering options -- are you considering strikes on land?
TRUMP: Well, I don't want to tell you exactly, but we are certainly looking at land now because we've got the sea very well under control. We've had a couple of days where there isn't a boat to be found, and that I view -- that as a good thing, not a bad thing. But we had tremendous amounts coming in by boats, by very expensive boats. You know, they have a lot of money, very fast, very expensive boats that were pretty big. And the way you look at it is every boat that we knock out, we save 25,000 American lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, we should say the administration has yet to offer any concrete evidence as to what these boats were carrying. Their cruise destinations or arrival times. Only allegations, which we should also point out, may well be true.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: On the boat, you had massive amounts of drugs. It was massive amounts of drugs coming into our country to kill a lot of people and everybody fully understands that.
Venezuela is sending us their gang members, their drug dealers and drugs. It's not acceptable.
They are carrying drugs. Massive. Every boat kills about 25,000 people. That's what they have. They have fentanyl mostly, and a lot of other drugs. And we take them out. They killed 300,000 people in our country last year, and we're not letting it happen anymore.
What's illegal are the drugs that were on the boat and the drugs that are being sent into our country, and the fact that 300 million people died last year from drugs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:05:10]
COOPER: Just moments ago, Venezuela's government weighed in, saying the President's remarks constitute a violation of international law and the U.N. charter. Also, "The U.S. maneuver seek to legitimize an operation of regime change with the ultimate aim of appropriating Venezuelan oil resources.
We'll start with the latest from the White House with CNN's Kristen Holmes. So, what is the sense we just heard this reaction from Venezuela? What's the sense you're getting from The White House officials and how intent the President is to escalate U.S. actions against the Maduro regime, because it is remarkable, he acknowledged he's authorized covert action by the CIA or covert operations by the CIA inside Venezuela, which the whole idea of them being covert is that they're not known about.
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Covert, they're covert? Yes, I mean, that's right, Anderson, it's almost unprecedented to hear a President confirm that he is authorized these covert operations on the ground in Venezuela.
And one of the things that we've heard from The White House over and over again is that they've just shied away from saying that they want regime change, but they've given every indication that that's exactly what they're going for.
We know that President Trump has now authorized CIA forces on the ground in Venezuela. He even stopped short of answering a question about whether or not the CIA has the authority to, " take out Maduro." Talking about removing Maduro. He wouldn't answer that.
And now, you're talking about actual strikes on land, not just these lethal strikes that we've seen out in the ocean, where they alleged that these drug dealers are trafficking drugs into the United States, but also targeting these alleged drug dealers inside of Venezuela, which is a clear escalation.
Now, I do want to note something. For months, we reported that this was on the table, that President Trump was weighing all of his options, that one of the options was these potential strikes inside of Venezuela. But clearly now we see him inching closer and closer to that.
The original goal had been not to get rid of Maduro just by the U.S. doing it, but by building up the pressure on the Venezuelan leader or the pressure on the people around him, so that he would eventually feel like he needed to step down. This does appear as though we are now going to enter into that regime change territory.
COOPER: Kristen Holmes at the White House, thanks.
Perspective now from former Republican Congressman and Air Force Veteran Adam Kinzinger; former deputy Director Of National Intelligence Beth Sanner and retired Army Major General James Spider Marks. Beth, you briefed President Trump on all sorts of global hotspots in his first term. I'm wondering what you make of him saying he greenlit the CIA to conduct operations inside Venezuela.
BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, you know, I'm a CIA veteran, 35 years, and I worked on Afghanistan. And you know, during Osama Bin Laden. So, I understand the idea of a Presidential finding and lethal force. And, you know, this is something that the President has every right to direct.
But there are limitations within CIA based on U.S. law that has been in force since President Reagan in 1981, which prohibits the CIA from conducting assassinations.
So, it's one thing, I think, that Americans would say that, you know, going after narcoterrorists or narcotraffickers is one thing, but declaring Maduro a narcoterrorist means to me that you're suddenly maybe putting a leader on the same board as you are a drug trafficker or a terrorist. And that is something that I think, you know, is something that Congress should be involved in, and certainly that the American people should know, because this is a very slippery slope into another, potentially endless war.
COOPER: Congressman, I'm wondering, do you find it surprising the administration hasn't, you know, held a press conference pointing out some of the details of some of these boats that they have, you know, targeted. What sort of, you know, I'm sure they have satellite images, I'm sure. We're seeing some, but I'm sure they have analysis of what was on the boats. Wouldn't that behoove them?
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It would definitely behoove them. It's like traditionally what's done. I mean, when we're in the middle of campaigns against al-Qaeda, you don't necessarily need to brief every one of those. But this is something quite out of the ordinary. And so, I would think they would want to provide that evidence. Certainly they, you know, if they can prove that there was a ton of drugs on that boat, people may be more supportive. But here's the interesting thing is the, it feels like we have declared war against fentanyl, which is obviously very dangerous.
It's not a ton of fentanyl that comes from Venezuela. Its largely cocaine. That cocaine is usually purchased by Americans, even though its illegal. They choose to do it. And I think the thing that confuses me is less about, you know, does the President have the authorization to do this? You know, it's but like, why Venezuela? We know that there are huge amounts of drugs that come through Mexico and other countries. I never and maybe this was my naivete, I've never put Venezuela as like this leading drug issue in the United States.
And so, I think that's curious as well as just simply, you know, why would you announce that you have authorized the CIA to do anything? That's what I don't understand, it takes away the element of surprise and unless it's just simply to look tough.
[20:10:41]
COOPER: Yes, I mean, general Marks, it's certainly saying that you've authorized the CIA to operate covertly in a country. It certainly makes that country want to search out for CIA operatives or people who might, you know, be contracted to the CIA.
MAJ. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Clearly, too much has been said, right? As everybody has indicated. Look, when you're conducting covert operations, what you do is you raise your hand and say, I'll defer any comment until later, or I'll talk about this in a classified setting. You don't hang it out there. But the thing we need to keep in mind, and we all realize, each of us that have that are speaking on this panel, we've been involved in very deep intelligence operations, and none of us is a lawyer. However, the best friend we have in those discussions is our lawyer going forward, giving us the boundaries of what's right and what really kind of gets really close, what those boundaries are. So, I think it's fair for us to say that what we're seeing this administration trying to achieve don't speak for the administration is this is kind of a what I would call a recent version of containment, if you will.
Look, Venezuela has got influence from the Russians, from the Chinese and North Koreans, the Iranians in different forms Quds Force, Military, Wagner Group down there, Chinese cyber activity, North Korean's missiles and Kim's. And these infiltrations by these ships, by these boats are an effort to work in what's called a gray zone. They're picking at America's vigilance and our ability to resist. So what we need to have is very clear judicial legal boundaries. And then with everything we can muster, go after this type of activity.
So, I'm very clear-eyed about what the administration is trying to achieve. But I have to assume that we've got some very good legal counsel that's wrapping this thing up.
COOPER: Beth, what would regime change look like in Venezuela? I mean, would it require what the U.S. did to depose Manuel Noriega in Panama in late '89? I'm old enough to remember that brought him to Florida to stand trial on drug trafficking. I mean, what would that actually look like?
SANNER: If we went directly at it and tried to kill Maduro rather than trying to encourage other people to depose him or something? I don't really know. I mean, it's a huge country. It's not Nicaragua.
It's a really big country with a lot of people with weapons and maybe not very -- not a huge, strong military. I mean, but it's a lot of people in a very big space. And I think we're making this assumption that if you somehow depose, Maduro, that you're going to somehow, you know, wave our magic wand and we are going to have the opposition be in charge in Venezuela, and there's this huge space because there are very, very powerful forces there that get a lot out of the current system. Whether Maduro is in charge or not. And the military themselves might just want to take over. And so, you would potentially be fighting, you know, to actually be in charge.
These things look easy but they are really, really hard. And they usually go sideways. And the history, one of the reasons that CIA isn't allowed to do assassinations anymore, you know, mainly because the American people didn't want them to, but they didn't work out very well.
COOPER: Yes, Beth Sanner, I appreciate it. General Marks, Adam Kinzinger, thank you.
Next, CNN's Kyung Lah investigating a growing crypto scam happening across America now. She confronts a scammer trying to get her to part with nearly $10,000.00 and put it in the kind of ATM these con artists use as their virtual electronic getaway cars.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAH: I'm not going to put the money into the machine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why?
LAH: Because this is a scam. You know it, and I know it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Also tonight, even as it returns, the remains of two more hostages to Israel. How Hamas is trying brutally to regain and tighten its grip on Gaza.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:19:18]
COOPER: Tonight, Part 2 of a CNN investigation centered on what might look like ordinary ATMs but they are crypto ATMs. The machines turn cash into cryptocurrency and scammers are convincing more and more Americans to feed that cash, their hard earned money into them and into swindlers accounts. Now, the trouble often starts with an e-mail or a text falsely claiming that you owe money. Our senior investigative correspondent Kyung Lah, confronted one of the scammers just as he was trying to steal thousands of dollars from her.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to withdraw a $9,500.00 from your account.
LAH (voice over): What am I doing with thousands in cash in a car? You are watching a scam. You are talking to the Geeks Quad from Best Buy.
LAH (voice over): And this is a scammer trying to steal money from me.
LAH (on camera): This is a mistake.
LAH (voice over): You've probably gotten fake bills or spam texts. We decided to call one. It appeared to be a U.S. phone number on this official looking bill that was emailed by the con artist.
[20:20:16]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell me your refund amount once again?
LAH (voice over): He promises to help, sending me a form to fill out.
LAH (on camera): It says Geek Squad cancellation and refund form. Excellent.
LAH (voice over): Here's how this scam works. In order to get my refund, he says I need to let him remote control my computer, which, for the purposes of this scam, I let him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are connected, so like you need to accept the refund, okay. Once it will ask you for the amount. Give a dollar sign, then 100. That's it, okay.
LAH (on camera): Oh, no, no, no, no, no. What happened that says 10,000?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh my God, I told you. Please don't make any mistake.
LAH (voice over): The lie is that this company refunded me too much money and I must send it back to avoid committing a crime.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is illegal fund, you need to transfer that money back to our company. You need to go to your bank, okay? And you need to withdraw $9,500.00 from your account. While you're driving you don't have to talk to me, and you don't have to talk to me inside the bank as well.
LAH (voice over): After I pull out the cash, he wants to see proof.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take a picture.
LAH (on camera): Take a picture of the money?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes, it's good.
LAH (voice over): Here's the modern twist in the scam. The scammer tells me where to go to find something called a crypto ATM, where I can deposit the money.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There will be a yellow color ATM machine. A yellow colored ATM machine. Open up the camera. You need to deposit that cash.
LAH (voice over): A crypto ATM looks like a normal ATM, but it's different. Put in cash and it converts it into cryptocurrency in an instant, these machines become the getaway car for the scammers who prey on victims. But back to our scammer on the phone with me.
LAH (on camera): I'm not going to put the money into the machine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why?
LAH (on camera): Because this is a scam. You know it and I know it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why do you think like that?
LAH (on camera): You are talking to a reporter from CNN.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I'm talking to the reporter.
LAH (on camera): From CNN, how much crypto money are you transferring through various electronic wallets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like a couple of million dollars in a month.
LAH (on camera): Do you care about these people you're scamming?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I do care.
LAH (on camera): You do care?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
LAH (on camera): Because a lot of people are losing their life savings. Elderly people who fall for this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, okay. I'm sorry for that.
LAH (on camera): Why do you keep doing it?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: CNN senior investigative correspondent Kyung Lah joins me now. He really sounded brokenhearted. What more can you tell us about the scammers behind these calls?
LAH: Well, when we reviewed police reports, Anderson, we found that a lot of this money, the scammed cash really does end up overseas and it funnels into Africa and southeast Asia. So, for the local cops, we talked to local police in Iowa and in Minnesota. It is very difficult to try to ever retrieve that cash and get the victims their money back, so that's a real heart break here is that it is so hard to make people whole.
The other thing to keep in mind is that experts say that some of the people who are making these direct phone calls, perhaps the gentleman who was talking to me on the phone, that scammer, oftentimes they are victims of human trafficking and forced labor. I did try to follow up and talk to that guy, see if he would speak to me further, and he never called me back. So, we don't know much about him -- Anderson.
COOPER: Kyung Lah, fascinating, thank you.
Ahead, there's more breaking news. The White House Budget Director warns of thousands of shutdown related layoffs, and a federal judge says not for now. Reaction and a look at his new book from business journalist, Andrew Ross Sorkin.
Also, a Chicago woman, shot after allegedly ramming her car into border patrol agents facing a federal charge. Her lawyer tells CNN's Omar Jimenez what he says, what he believes really happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She stopped behind him, they jump out and start shooting. She is in this third lane.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:28:57]
COOPER: Tonight, Hamas claims it has turned over to Israel the bodies of all the deceased hostages it has access to and that significant efforts and special equipment, in their words, will be needed to recover additional bodies. Now, the remains of two more hostages were transferred just hours ago, bringing the total number to nine.
There's increasing anger in Israel that more bodies have not been returned, and that Hamas may be reneging on the deal. It also seems far from giving up power and is now moving, in fact, to reassert control over Gaza.
CNN's Jeremy Diamond has the story. We want to warn you, some of the video we're about to see is graphic.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice over): In the middle of a public square in Gaza City, eight bound and blindfolded men are dragged out and forced to kneel. One by one, armed Hamas militants take up their positions behind them, aiming rifles at their heads before opening fire all eight men fall to the ground executed. This is part of the grim reality of post-ceasefire Gaza, as Hamas forces say they are carrying out a comprehensive security operation to root out those they accuse of collaborating with Israel.
With these bodies, Hamas also reestablishing the element of fear it has used to rule Gaza for years as it looks to reassert its dominance over a decimated Gaza Strip.
Amid its ceasefire with Israel. Hamas is now putting on a show of force in Gaza streets, attacking other armed groups from gangs backed by Israel to powerful clans that have a history of clashing with Hamas.
[20:30:40]
The Doghmush clan, which denies collaborating with Israel, has accused Hamas of killing nearly 30 members of its family in the last week. U.S. Central Command, which is monitoring the ceasefire, urging Hamas to immediately suspend violence and shooting at innocent Palestinian civilians in Gaza.
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It's going to hold up.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Up the violence, is a reminder of unresolved issues at the heart of President Trump's plan to end the war in Gaza, Hamas' handover of power, the establishment of an International Security Force and Hamas' disarmament, all still being negotiated.
TRUMP: Well, they're going to disarm because they said they were going to disarm. And if they don't disarm, we will disarm them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How will you do that?
TRUMP: I don't have to explain that to you, but if they don't disarm, we will disarm them. DIAMOND (voice-over): The ceasefire deal already proving fragile. Hamas has only returned the remains of nine of 28 deceased hostages so far. Some are pending DNA testing and Israel says one body Hamas handed over was not that of a hostage. Hamas says Gaza's destruction is complicating matters.
Israel has continued killing Palestinians, at least 15 since the ceasefire went into effect according to the U.N.'s human rights office. The Israeli military says it has fired on Palestinians who approached Israeli lines in Gaza. In the ruins of Gaza, an uncertain future and a long road ahead.
Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Tel Aviv.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST OF "ANDERSON COOPER 360": And still ahead, a report that members of young Republican groups, all adults, exchanged a series of racist, anti-Semitic and hate-filled messages. Vice President J.D. Vance dismisses it as chat among, as he puts it, a bunch of kids.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, (R) VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: And I really don't want us to grow up in a country where a kid telling a stupid joke, telling a very offensive, stupid joke is cause to ruin their lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: We'll have more than that and we're just moments away from CNN's Town Hall with Vermont Senator, Bernie Sanders and New York. Congresswoman, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, hosted by Kaitlan Collins. We'll check in with Kaitlan ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:37:15]
COOPER: More Breaking News, a federal judge in San Francisco has temporarily blocked Trump administration efforts to lay off thousands of federal workers during the government shutdown, calling them unlawful. The judge appointed by former President Clinton says she believed the layoffs were politically motivated. Meanwhile, the White House Budget Director spoke to the size of those cuts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSSELL VOUGHT, (R) DIRECTOR OF THE UNITED STATES OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET: We're definitely talking thousands of people. We want to be very aggressive where we can be in shuttering the bureaucracy, not just the funding, but the bureaucracy that we now have an opportunity to do that. And that's where we're going to be looking for our opportunities. And I think we'll probably end up being north of 10,000. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: 10,000. Joining us now is Andrew Ross Sorkin. He's Founder and Editor at Large of DealBook, The New York Times' business and policy newsletter. He's also got a new book out, which is really remarkable, "1929: Inside the Greatest Crash in History--and How It Shattered a Nation." I want to talk about the book because it, I mean, I'm not really a business person, but it is so well paced. It is so exciting. It's such a human story and human drama. First of all, the 10,000 firings. What do you think?
ANDREW ROSS SORKIN, FOUNDER AND EDITOR AT LARGE, DEALBOOK: Well, I think that, first of all, this is going to now put the Democrats in a better position to negotiate over what's going to happen next. I mean, I think what was happening was that White House was using this as a cudgel to try to say, look, if you don't come to the table --
COOPER: Right.
ROSS SORKIN: -- these firings are going to happen. Now that's off the table, at least temporarily. And I thought I just wanted to read you this, this is what the judge said. She said that the White House had taken advantage of the lapse in government spending, government functioning to assume that all bets are off, that the laws don't apply to them anymore, and they can impose the structures that they like, which is to say that the entire effort really was to take advantage of a particular moment. And I think it's going to be much harder. And then, you're going to see a lot of finger pointing about who is really now responsible for this government shutdown.
COOPER: I saw you on "60 Minutes." They did a piece about your book. Congratulations on that.
ROSS SORKIN: Thank you.
COOPER: You had said you believe there'd be another crash with the American economy. You just didn't know when. What makes you say that, particularly given all the research you have done on what happened in 1929?
ROSS SORKIN: Well, look, I went back to try to write a book about what happened in that history to understand it and write it in a cinematic way about characters. But what you really understood at the end of the day is that our economy in these cycles, there's a human quality to it, which is we do have these -- I hate to say it, boom and bust periods. And invariably, what goes up does come down at some point.
It doesn't mean we have to have a crash like 1929 again. In fact, I hope that there are lessons embedded in this story from that period that we take away. And I think, by the way, some lessons have already been taken away, even in terms of how the 2008 financial crisis was dealt with.
[20:40:00] But the truth is, you look at where we are in our economy today, you look at where stock prices are, you look at the amount of money flowing into A.I., for example, and it has all of the appearances at some point of some kind of bubble. It doesn't mean that A.I. is not the future. The internet was the future in the late-'90s and it's still the future today. But there was more than a hiccup in the late '99 and 2000.
COOPER: What I was so impressed about in this book, and I heard you talk about it, I think it was on "60 Minutes," that a lot of people said to you, look, you can't really write the book the way you want to because you're doing a very human story.
ROSS SORKIN: Right.
COOPER: And you're creating -- and it's the human drama of it, and the records are kind of dry. You found decades later, people were recounting their personal experiences.
ROSS SORKIN: Right.
COOPER: But you have brought this to life in a way I've never heard about the '29 crash.
ROSS SORKIN: Well, that's what I -- look, I love those kind of books where you get inside and you understand the perspective of the different characters. And to be honest with you, I got lucky. I happen to be at Harvard University one afternoon by accident, and I asked if I could look through some boxes about a guy who was running JPMorgan back in 1929, and I opened up the boxes and there were transcripts. His secretary had kept transcripts of his phone calls between himself and Hoover --
COOPER: Wow.
ROSS SORKIN: -- and himself and Roosevelt. And so, you could see them talking to each other. And I said, if I could find material like that for everybody, and by the way, that was the hard part, then you could really construct a real narrative and you could see what the real decisions were, what all of these issues really were. And I think have a better understanding of what ultimately happened.
COOPER: So what makes you think, or what did you learn? What are your -- what's your takeaway to apply to now?
ROSS SORKIN: Oh, goodness. Look --
COOPER: I mean, because you look at -- you look at the stock market now, and it's booming.
ROSS SORKIN: Right.
COOPER: People said, the markets don't like uncertainty. There's a lot of uncertainty. The markets are booming, and it seems like it's just a handful of companies that's carrying it. ROSS SORKIN: Look, what I -- I think, the lesson of all of this is, A, you need guardrails. One of the things that happened in '29 was there was no guardrails. There was no SEC; the insider trading was legal. Everything was insane. And you need to keep those guardrails there. Right now --
COOPER: That's --
ROSS SORKIN: Right now, this administration is trying to take those guardrails off in the same name of sort of democracy -- financial democracy -- democratizing finance. And that was exactly what they were talking about in the 1920s. Also interestingly, the Federal Reserve really does need to be independent. That was actually a great lesson. Because back then, one of the reasons that they sat on their hands and didn't do anything was because they were such a new organization. They were built in 1913, that they were worried.
COOPER: Well, that's another warning sign then for --
ROSS SORKIN: They were worried. So, there's a whole bunch of things like that. And then the last piece is when you have these sort of new products right now, crypto, you just did a fascinating segment about what's going on there. When you have new products that are being launched into the marketplace, charlatans emerge, frauds emerge. And so you need to have bright lights on them at a time when we seem to not want to put bright lights on them.
COOPER: Yeah, that is for sure. Andrew Ross Sorkin, thank you so much.
ROSS SORKIN: It's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you.
COOPER: The book, "1929: Inside the Greatest Crash in Wall Street History and How It Shattered a Nation." Other news now, an investigation is underway tonight by the U.S. Capitol Police after a flag that was altered to include a swastika was found in the Office of Ohio Republican Congressman Dave Taylor. The incident was reported by Politico. This comes on the heels of another Politico report about the discovery of a series of racist, anti-Semitic, and violent messages exchanged by members of young Republican organizations. More tonight from CNN's Tom Foreman.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Calling Black Americans monkeys, watermelon people, and the 'N' word, flinging homophobic and bigoted slurs, dark jokes about gas chambers and rape for opponents, even praise for Adolf Hitler. Politico says it found hundreds of examples in seven months of online chats between branch leaders of the Young Republican National Federation in four states, mostly men, but including at least one woman. The National Group's quick response, "We are appalled by the vile inexcusable language. Such behavior is disgraceful, unbecoming of any Republican, and stands in direct opposition to the values our movement represents." Top Democrats want more. GOV. KATHY HOCHUL, (D-NY): Kick them out of the party, take away their official roles, stop using them as campaign advisers. There needs to be consequences. This bullshit has to stop.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Four people have reportedly lost their jobs, and two have apologized, but the potential political damage remains. For years, the GOP has fought accusations it too easily embraces favored status for white Americans, is too cozy with white supremacist, and too often makes excuses for bigoted behavior. To be sure, President Donald Trump has spoken up against all that.
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: In one voice, our nation must condemn racism, bigotry, and white supremacy.
[20:45:00]
FOREMAN (voice-over): But he also frequently invokes imagery and insults many consider patently and purposely offensive.
TRUMP: Pocahontas. Pocahontas.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Vice president J.D. Vance responded to the fresh scandal with a dose of what about, citing violent language in a text by a Democratic contender for Attorney General in Virginia.
J.D. VANCE, (R) VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I really don't want us to grow up in a country where a kid telling a stupid joke, telling a very offensive, stupid joke is cause to ruin their lives.
FOREMAN (voice-over): The ages of all those on the text chains are unknown, but the Young Republicans Group is for 18 to 40 year olds.
KRISTIN DAVISON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think the vice president could have really used this moment as a learning moment, encouraging these young men and women to denounce what they've said, to move on and be better.
FOREMAN: It is not entirely clear how Politico obtain these text chains, but this is clear. These were young Republicans eager to move up in their party. And based upon their own words, they did not think that this would get in the way. Anderson?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Thanks very much, Tom Foreman. Tonight, a federal judge has extended her ruling that temporarily blocks the Trump administration from deploying National Guard troops in Portland, Oregon for an additional 14 days. She says that gives time for the appeals process to play out.
Meanwhile, in Chicago, a woman accused of interfering with border patrol agents by allegedly ramming her car into a law enforcement vehicle, was in federal court today. During the incident, Marimar Martinez was shot five times by one of the agents. She pleaded not guilty to a charge of assaulting, resisting, and impeding a federal officer. We have more tonight from CNN's Omar Jimenez.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTOPHER PARENTE, ATTORNEY FOR MARIMAR MARTINEZ: She's on the side just beeping, trying to tell him to get out of here. She's just like, again for 20 minutes, the woman --
OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So she does know that this is an immigration person. And just generally for what's been going on in these neighborhoods is like, you need to leave, like get out.
PARENTE: It is -- it's more than that. It's more warning other people.
JIMENEZ (voice-over): Chris Parente represents Marimar Martinez. She's accused of ramming the car of a border patrol agent, then boxing in his car. The Department of Homeland Security argues he defensively shot her five times as a result. Today, she entered a not guilty plea in court. Parente told us he's seen body camera video of what happened, and that it doesn't line up with what DHS is alleging.
PARENTE: He's driving with one hand and he turns it to the left. You'll clearly see that. In my experience, when you turn your wheel to the left, your car goes to the left, which is where her car was. So it's our position that a jury will see this and realize that he swerved into her.
JIMENEZ (voice-over): CNN has not reviewed the video, which hasn't been released by the court. Parente though, also says in the body cam video, at least one border patrol officer appeared to be preparing for a confrontation.
PARENTE: Maybe 20 seconds to 30 seconds while they're that way, coming this way.
JIMENEZ: Yeah.
PARENTE: The people are beep -- she's beeping and the agent who has his finger on the trigger of this assault rifle, I believe says, do something bitch.
JIMENEZ (voice-over): Video obtained by the Chicago Sun Times shows the moments leading up to the impact. Martinez's tan car close on the left next to the federal agent's vehicle.
JIMENEZ: To those who look at some of the surveillance video and say, well, hey, here's a woman who is driving recklessly and putting agents' lives in danger. You say what?
PARENTE: I say, if they want to charge her with reckless driving or crossing the line, absolutely, I'll go to Cook County Traffic Court tomorrow. But they have charged her with a federal felony of assaulting a federal agent and branding her a domestic terrorist. And that's just not what this is.
JIMENEZ (voice-over): DHS has also claimed in a press release, law enforcement officers were boxed in by 10 cars. And only when Martinez tried to "run them over," that's when the officers fired.
PARENTE: There's only two cars involved in this. When you read this stuff, like they're trapped.
JIMENEZ: Yeah.
PARENTE: They can't move, they are boxed in. There's literally nobody in front of them, there's nobody in that lane, and there's nobody to the side.
JIMENEZ (voice-over): The federal complaint lays out that Martinez vehicle drove into and side-swiped the driver's side of the CBP vehicle. And then when the agents got out, that Martinez drove at the border patrol agent before he started firing.
The initial Department of Homeland Security releases went even further. "Border patrol law enforcement officers were ambushed by domestic terrorists. And Kash Patel, the FBI Director, also put out a tweet that over a week later was still up, conflating video from a completely separate incident with this one.
PARENTE: Honestly, that's why I'm speaking to you. Normally in a criminal case, I would not speak to the media until the case is over, but there is such misinformation out there that the public needs to see this is not what they've been sold by the government. This is not a domestic terrorist. It's a 30-year-old Montessori school teacher with no criminal history, who's never done anything close to what they're saying.
JIMENEZ: This neighborhood in Chicago where this happened is a predominantly Latino community, and volunteers and even community organizations have come together to create this informal network of sorts, warning people when ICE or other immigration enforcement might be in the area, but also to make sure people are documenting what's going on.
[20:50:00]
JIMENEZ (voice-over): And in many of these immigrant communities, you can't miss the know-your-right signs or notices about ICE as the federal government has ramped up immigration enforcement in the city. DHS says they've arrested more than a thousand undocumented immigrants as part of their operations in Illinois this past month. But for Parente, he says the misstatements around his case he believes affects DOJ's overall credibility.
PARENTE: As a former alumnus of DOJ, it pains me to see what's going on, but I think anybody who sees what's going on today is going to question these indictments coming out of the Department of Justice with what's going on, as we've seen.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So Omar, to what extent, if any, has the credibility of DOJ been a factor in these court proceedings? JIMENEZ (on camera): Yeah, it's come up a few times in a few different ways. Even Parente filed in a motion saying that the focal point of their defense will come down to the credibility of DHS assessments here. But if you remember, last week, when a federal judge ruled that the National Guard could not be deployed here, issuing that temporary restraining order, one of the things she said was that the court was left having to make a "credibility determination on DHS agents' assessments of recent events," a.k.a., why they believed they needed the National Guard.
And she called the assessments by DHS "unreliable." Even in this case, the press release about this incident mentioned that these agents fired defensive shots at "an armed citizen." But then when you look at the legal documents, that part isn't mentioned anywhere. And the defense attorney even said that, yes, a weapon was found in the car, but she's a concealed carry license holder. The gun was never accessed, still in a holster and under a snap as well.
So it will be an interesting dynamic to watch for moving forward, what's out in public and then what's actually playing out in court, Anderson.
COOPER: All right. Omar Jimenez, thanks so much. Just moments from now tonight, CNN's Town Hall, Senator Bernie Sanders and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. The Source's Kaitlan Collins is the host. She's here with a quick preview.
Kaitlan, what are you expecting to hear tonight? Obviously, the impact of the shutdown is top of mind for a lot of Americans.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT AND ANCHOR OF "THE SOURCE": The impact of that, Anderson, and also what it means for what happens next. Because I remember at the beginning of this shutdown, three weeks ago, we were hearing from a lot of people who thought, oh, it's only going to last a couple of days. They're not going to be able to hold out for that long. And instead, here we are sliding into the third week of this government shutdown and there is no end in sight.
I mean, the one thing that Republicans and Democrats can agree on, it seems like here in Washington, is that the negotiations aren't really going anywhere. And I think that has raised a lot of questions about how everyone is calculating their strategies and what their next steps are going to look like. Because to your point, there's a lot of people caught in the middle here, a lot of federal employees who are not getting paid right now.
Obviously, you interact with a lot them at the airport or essential government services that are shut down during this. And so, I think that's a big question here because what Democrats have been arguing and progressives, like our two guests tonight, is that this fight is worth it. That this is a shutdown that has real consequences because of what it would mean if these subsidies don't actually get extended past the end of December.
That's a key question for them, is the White House says they're trying to inflict maximum pain possible here with the President saying today, comparing his Budget Chief to Darth Vader and saying they are going to cut more programs and that more federal layoffs are coming, something that we have never seen before in recent history in a government shutdown from a U.S. president.
COOPER: Yeah, Kaitlan, appreciate it. We're going to see you at the top of the hour for the Town Hall with Senator Bernie Sanders and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. That starts in about six-and- a-half minutes. Joining us right now is former Senior Adviser to President Obama, David Axelrod; former Deputy Pentagon Press Secretary, Sabrina Singh; and Democratic Strategist, Paul Begala.
So David, Republican Senator John Kennedy predicted today the shutdown will last past Thanksgiving. Do you think that's possible?
DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, certainly it's possible, especially if the Republican posture is we're not going to sit down and talk to the Democrats, and that's where we are right now. I think the White House has kind of charted a scorched earth path here and Congress is going to stick to it. I suspect that there are members on both sides who would like to sit down and talk about a resolution to this. But, I don't think, as we've seen on many other issues, that Congress has much latitude unless and until the President says, yeah, go ahead and do that.
COOPER: Sabrina. I mean, there have been some cracks among some Republicans, Congressman Marjorie Taylor Greene who's siding with Democrats on the healthcare subsidies. She told The Washington Post, "There's a lot of weak Republican men in the House." Do you think if more Republicans break ranks, GOP leaders might move toward negotiations?
SABRINA SINGH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR AND FORMER DEPUTY PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: Well, I think Democrats have been incredibly effective in their messaging, but also really drawing the line in the sand here.
[20:55:00]
I mean, Republicans control everything from the White House to the House and the Senate, and so Democrats are not in power. They're willing to negotiate, but they drew a line in the sand when it came to the healthcare subsidies. And I think Republicans, especially representing their constituents, see that their constituents do not want to see their healthcare premiums go up, do want to see their prices lowered, want to see government working for them, one of the promises that Donald Trump came in on. And so, I think you could potentially see more fractures within the Republican Party.
But I think the Democrats are being effective right now in really holding the line and holding Republicans accountable to meet them where they are. And I think -- I don't think anyone in the Democratic Party saw Marjorie Taylor Greene coming around to the fact and agreeing with Democrats on healthcare subsidies. But we are here today and potentially, more Republicans could break rank in the coming days. COOPER: Yeah, I mean, Paul, you have Speaker Johnson and the Senate Majority Leader Thune saying they won't negotiate with Democrats over health insurance funding until the government is reopened. Minority leader Schumer said it's premature for Democrats to compromise. How do you -- I mean, you've seen a lot of these. How do you think this will play out?
PAUL BEGALA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: The Republicans have to give up and here's why. I've seen a lot of these shutdowns, right? I worked for President Clinton. Newt Gingrich shut down the government in 1995 because he wanted Clinton to cut Medicare. Clinton wouldn't do it. The government shut down, Clinton won. The Democrats have one leverage point, as Sabrina said, and they're using it on the most popular thing that we're doing, which is insurance subsidies for people to pay for health insurance. Wildly popular, 72 percent of Americans support these things.
By the way, 76 percent of those subsidies go to people in states carried by President Trump. So, the Democrats are asking the Republicans to do something very popular. Honestly, this is the dumbest shutdown I've ever seen. They're not asking them to give back the stupid jet from the Qataris or to take back the $20 billion bailout for Argentina. They're just saying, help your own voters and your own citizens pay for their healthcare. For once, the Democrats, I think really have the Republicans over a barrel.
COOPER: David, are you as optimistic as Paul is here?
AXELROD: Well, look, Paul is always optimistic. That's one of the reasons I love him so much. But, the point I was making is, it would be sensible and I suspect that there are members of Congress who would like to sit down and work this through. But we're having this discussion as if Congress is an independent body here. And what the Republicans in Congress have demonstrated is they are not independent agents. They are acting at the behest of the president.
If the president decides that this is an issue that he doesn't want hung on him, then I think that they will make a move. But unless and until that happens, I don't see Congress going to the president and saying, listen, we'd love to be with you, but we've got to go our own way here. 89 percent of Congress has voted with Trump a hundred percent of the time of the House. So, all I'm saying is that that is where the block is and unless he removes it, this could go on for a while.
COOPER: Sabrina, what would motivate the president to do that though?
SINGH: I think the president is incredibly motivated by polling and his support and his numbers. They have really slid from when he came into office. And I think when he sees public support sliding and when he sees bad coverage in the press, and we know that he's a consumer of the media, that does force him to react and to respond. And as Paul and David were saying, shutdowns do not -- are incredibly harmful for the American people, incredibly harmful for the government. But ultimately, they are a losing political issue for the party in power. And I think Americans across the country understand that Donald Trump came in, he won, he won effectively. He has a majority in the government. This shutdown and the responsibility of it is on the Republican Party and specifically on Donald Trump. And so, I think the way he's going to move is if public opinion shifts. And I think we are seeing that in states and CNN has of course done polling on this. You're seeing the American public shift on this.
COOPER: Paul, do you think there is this shift?
BEGALA: Yes, and I think tonight is important. I think President Trump is going to be watching. I'm serious. And Bernie and AOC, here's -- OK, let's play a drinking game. Every time Bernie or AOC says healthcare, cost of living, health insurance premiums, right? The high cost of healthcare. That's their -- we drink. And I'm telling you about the time Kaitlan says, goodnight, drive safely, going to be knee walking, toilet hugging, honey hold my hair drunk. Because the Democrats have a message and they haven't had one in a long time. And I think it should be really interesting. I think Mr. President -- Trump will watch that and think, oh, these guys have got me.
COOPER: Paul Begala --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Go ahead.
AXELROD: Why should this night be any different than any other night?
(LAUGH)
COOPER: -- David Axelrod, Sabrina Singh, thanks very much. Now, as promised, Senator Bernie Sanders and Congresswoman --
