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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Ex-Trump National Security Adviser John Bolton Indicted; Interview with Rep. Dan Goldman (D-NY); Tensions Rise Amid Clashes with Federal Agents; U.S. Strikes Another Suspected Drug Boat In The Caribbean; NY Times: Trump Administration Considers Overhaul Of Refugee System That Would Favor White People; Pres. Trump Posts Threat To "Go In And Kill" Hamas; Chef Jose Andres On The Aid And Hunger Crisis In Gaza. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired October 16, 2025 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Bolton was an unhinged war hawk whose good times with Trump are over.

DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I'd be with foreign leaders, and I didn't even have to act tough because they said, look, that moron, John Bolton, he's crazy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN: This friendship that turned into a feud has only picked up fury in all these years, since it really broke out into the open. Now, it may be coming to a turning point. The big question is, Erin, in the end, which man gets to say he won?

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Tom Foreman, thank you and thanks to all of you. AC360 starts now.

[20:00:40]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, former Trump National Security Advisor, John Bolton indicted over his handling of classified information, the third Trump critic to be federally charged in less than a month. Also, tonight masked federal agents dragging people away, some of them U.S. citizens, we'll take you to ground zero, Chicago, where federal judges are pushing back.

And later, Chef Jose Andres and the life-saving work his group is doing in Gaza with Hamas gunmen seeking retribution against Palestinians they accuse of collaboration and hunger, a daily reality.

Good evening, thanks for joining us.

We begin tonight with the federal indictment of John Bolton. Today, a Maryland grand jury made him the first Trump administration's second National Security advisor, alongside Michael Flynn, to face charges.

However, unlike in the case of General Flynn, whom the President later pardoned, the commander-in-chief has been openly campaigning for this one, it would certainly color the case and might also present difficulties for the prosecution of it. That said, unlike the recent and rushed indictment of former FBI Director James Comey by a hastily appointed interim U.S. Attorney and over the objections of career prosecutors, this one was secured by a DOJ National Security veteran and includes 18 counts alleging that Bolton shared with two people, with which sources tell CNN were his wife and daughter, more than a thousand pages of "diary-like" entries from his time as National Security advisor, containing, "information classified up to the top secret level."

Now, those entries, prosecutors say, were printed and remained on personal devices used by Ambassador Bolton and others in his home, which was searched, as you see earlier this year.

Now, the indictment also uses his own related statements on how others have handled classified or sensitive information against him. Here he is talking about Hillary Clinton's e-mails.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Look, as I've said before, I believe it still to this day. If I had done at the State Department what Hillary Clinton did, I'd be wearing an orange jumpsuit now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, the indictment cites that and this on disclosures, the Defense Secretary Hegseth shared sensitive information in Signal chats.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOLTON: I think the second example of a Signal chat group really shows a terrible lack of judgment. Communicating with the people in this group in particular who have absolutely no need to know about any upcoming U.S. military operation leads me to wonder what he's doing on the job on a minute to minute, hour by hour basis, that he's got time to knock out Signal messages to friends and family, which is what this group is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, on the subject of using non-secure messaging platforms, the indictment adds an Ambassador Bolton's own e-mails were hacked by someone associated with the government of Iran. Now, all of that said, and we'll discuss the charges in more detail shortly. This has not happened, of course, in a vacuum.

Unlike in every other modern administration, this administration and this President has not been hands off. Here's the President as news of the indictment broke.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: He's a bad guy. Yes, it's too bad, but that's the way it goes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Presidents generally do not say such things about pending cases. This President says such things a lot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: And I'm not a fan of John Bolton. I thought he was a sleazebag, a lowlife.

That idiot, John Bolton, who was so stupid.

He was a maniac.

He wants to kill people.

Bolton, a real dope. He was a nut job and everybody -- I could see his face get red, red, red with that stupid white mustache and he'd be ready to explode.

He released massive amounts of classified and confidential, but classified information. That's illegal and you go to jail for that.

He's a criminal, and I believe, frankly, he should go to jail for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Now, again, whatever the merits of the case against him may be, John Bolton is not the only one the President has targeted for retribution. There's his by now famous Truth Social post calling for charges against James Comey, Senator Adam Schiff and New York Attorney General Letitia James. She and Comey are now under indictment.

And there's this, just yesterday on former special counsel Jack Smith, former Mueller probe counsel, Andrew Weissmann and former Deputy Attorney General Lisa Monaco.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Jack Smith, in my opinion, is a criminal and I noticed his interviewer was -- I think that was Weissmann and I hope they're going to look into Weissmann too. Weissmann is a bad guy and he had somebody in Lisa who was his puppet, worked in the office, really as the top person. And I think that she should be looked at very strongly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:05:17]

COOPER: By the way, he was standing next to Kash Patel, the Director of the FBI. The President, that was him just yesterday, his appetite for retribution also extends to former secretaries of state and former presidents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'll tell you something, though. You lock them up, you should lock them up. Lock up the Bidens, lock up Hillary.

(PEOPLE chanting "Locking them up!")

TRUMP: Lock them up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Fast forward to tonight, Ambassador Bolton has issued a statement on his indictment and the President, it reads in part: "These charges are not just about his focus on me or my diaries, but his intensive effort to intimidate his opponents to ensure that he alone determines what is said about his conduct."

The Ambassador continues, "Dissent and disagreement are foundational to America's constitutional system and vitally important to our freedom. I look forward to the fight to defend my lawful conduct and to expose his abuse of power."

Joining us now is CNN senior crime and justice reporter, Katelyn Polantz. So, you've been combing through the indictment. What else stands out to you?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Anderson, it's the detail here. All of the detail about what John Bolton was doing with classified information when he was National Security advisor in the first Trump administration. This is a man who, to his own accord, says that he knows how to handle classified records. And yet this is what he was doing on a daily basis, essentially, that prosecutors have compiled for this indictment.

Anderson, they say he was working in the White House. He was traveling. He was in other secured facilities writing on yellow notepads what was happening in his day. And then he was rewriting those notes into word documents, sending them to himself, and then also regularly sending them to family members.

The detail here in some of these missives, he's sending diaries, they call them. He'll write "While in the situation room I learned that...." "The Intel briefer said..." At one point someone asked him, "Why are we using this messaging communication platform?" And he says, "For diary in the future!!!"

He also mentions at one point in July of 2019, so that's near the end of Bolton's time in the Trump White House that he is sending a 77-page document and then other messages to family members saying "Stuff coming, but only for them. To read hard copy when they are back in the U.S."

And Anderson, in this document, we also are able to see this indictment that the investigators found the printed out versions of these things that he was sending that allegedly has information about foreign strikes, foreign adversaries in his home well after he left the government. COOPER: All right. Katelyn Polantz, thanks very much.

Perspective now from New York Democratic Congressman Dan Goldman. He's a member of the House Judiciary and Homeland Security Committees and a former federal prosecutor. I mean, 18 count indictment of Bolton, do you think is warranted?

REP. DAN GOLDMAN (D-NY): Well, this is why Donald Trump's abuse of the criminal justice system and the FBI is so problematic. This was an investigation that has been going on for some time, I think preceding Donald Trump's presidency. And it's a quite detailed indictment, as Katelyn just said. But the problem is that Donald Trump talks so much about John Bolton. He talks so much about going after his enemies and using the criminal justice system to do that.

We have seen very, very weak, thin, perhaps meritless indictments of Jim Comey and Letitia James recently. And so, that puts a very different gloss over John Bolton's indictment. This one is different than those.

This is a much more thorough investigation, and if the allegations are true it is a crime. But we are left wondering whether or not he was charged because Donald Trump doesn't like him, because Donald Trump is, and I agree with Ambassador Bolton trying to squash dissent, trying to squash any form of accountability by going after his enemies or whether it's a legitimate prosecution and that's ultimately why the politicization of the Department of Justice is so dangerous, is we will never know and there are going to be countless more cases like this.

COOPER: I mean, do you think that, that doubt that, you say he's sown, does that corrupt the case? I mean, does that make it hard to, you know, be successful if in fact, these charges are true?

GOLDMAN: It will have an impact on the case. There's no question about it. And that's part of the vindictive selective prosecution argument that I would expect, Abbe Lowell, his attorney, to make and even if that actually has nothing to do with it, the fact that he's talking so much about it and he's so clearly using the Department of Justice as a weapon, as a cudgel, and that there's a pattern of it now. So, we've seen it in other cases. And so, therefore, this follows the pattern.

In this particular case, the facts may bear it out. This is different than Donald Trump's classified document case, but it's also very different than the Comey and --

[20:10:27]

COOPER: It is also remarkable to see him standing next to the FBI Director and calling for the prosecution of people or standing next to Pam Bondi and doing this or, you know, obviously even writing a note saying, Pam, you know, what's up? Why haven't there been prosecutions? I mean, the idea of any kind of separation between the Department of Justice and The White House, they're in the same room while he's saying this. GOLDMAN: I thought when we were going to come into this administration and he was putting Kash Patel in the FBI, that they were simpatico. Kash Patel had his enemies list, that he was clearly on the same page as Donald Trump, and that Donald Trump was not going to have to say anything to the Department of Justice to the FBI about who to go after or who not to go after. He was put in there, Pam Bondi was put in there because they are his political lackeys and they know what he wants to do.

The fact, though, that he has been so aggressive and so open and notorious about going after his enemies, has put a totally different taint on it and jeopardizes those cases. They're going to have to show that all of those handwritten notes or those rewritten notes actually come from documents that were classified.

Unlike Donald Trump's case, where there were over a hundred documents that had classified markings on them, these do not have classified markings. So there's an extra step that they're going to have to prove. But that's really secondary right now to the fact that Donald Trump went after another one of his enemies.

COOPER: Congressman, appreciate it. Dan Goldman, thank you very much.

Joining us now, former counsel to assistant attorney general for National Security Carrie Cordero; Republican strategist, former Trump campaign adviser David Urban and former senior adviser to President Obama, David Axelrod.

Carrie, what do you make of the strength of the case here? And is it similar at all to other recent indictments of the President's perceived political enemies, Comey and James?

CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I think it's a really serious case against John Bolton that the government is making. Notwithstanding everything that was just said by the Congressman in terms of the bigger picture of the political pressure that's been placed on the Department and all of the President's statements about wanting prosecutions against his political enemies. That said, this is a very different indictment, for example, than the one we see against former FBI Director Comey, which was very thin and contained no facts.

This indictment is detailed. It has many facts in it that support the allegations. And prosecutors are not supposed to put anything into an indictment unless they are prepared to demonstrate that evidence if the case were to go to trial.

So, there are allegations of John Bolton using an AOL account, using a Google account. The best way that I can describe it in lay terms, the government's narrative, is that he was merely transcribing his entire tenure as National Security advisor.

So, there are very serious charges here made, and there appears to be substantial evidence that the government has obtained through the search of his house and through the forensic examination of devices and through their investigation into personal e-mail accounts. COOPER: And I mean, David Axelrod, I mean, Bolton was obviously critical of Hillary Clinton for her use of a private e-mail server and comments he made back in 2016-2017. They actually, as we showed, quoted some of those statements in the indictment to demonstrate he knew what he was doing or should have known what he was doing was wrong. How do you square that with what he's alleged to have done?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, look, I mean, it's a problem for him. Videotape is not his friend here and you would think he would have known better. But, two things can be true at once, Anderson. This could be a very colorable case, as Carrie suggests. And the President could be waging war against his political enemies using the Justice Department and I think both things are true.

You know, and he is going over a long list of people, all of whom he thinks had have wronged him, people who should be prosecuted for what -- it's not exactly clear doing in the Oval Office just this week really reflects -- I mean, he thinks the wheels of injustice are going to slow. He wants them to go faster.

And, and I think that's a huge concern, this is not -- we read about this in other countries. We see it in Putin's Russia and other places.

The idea that this is how the United States is going to work is deeply disturbing. So, this case does look like a substantial case and the fact that real prosecutors showed up to sign the indictment and present the case reflects the fact that it's a serious case, the fact that he had to send someone over from the White House who was, reviewing you know, the Smithsonian exhibits before to go over there who never prosecuted a case to present the evidence and sign the indictment on the James and on -- the Comey indictments tells you what those were but the pattern, the pattern is deeply, deeply concerning.

[20:15:50]

COOPER: David Urban, I mean, do you think this case would have been brought if Bolton were still in the President's good graces?

DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, Anderson, unfortunately as Carrie notes and many others on this network have, you know, past CIA Director John Deutch, you know, pled guilty for -- and was sentenced for, you know, something much, much less severe than this storing classified on his computer. This seems much more severe, over 1,000 pages, you know, sent home when he was breached by the Iranians. I don't think he mentioned the FBI, that he had sent all these things home.

So, I think there's a lot to this. And so, I do believe that would be the case, whether John Bolton, you know, Anderson, I don't believe that John Bolton was on the same stature in terms of Jim Comey or Letitia James.

You know, the President has a lot of, you know, a lot of energy, negative energy towards certain people. John Bolton was a sideshow compared to the first two. But interestingly, John Bolton is probably the only one based on these facts, it appears that might end up actually getting convicted.

COOPER: David Urban, David Axelrod, Carrie Cordero, I appreciate it.

Coming up next, we have scenes from what ICE and others are doing and the pushback to it in Chicago and nationwide.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's a citizen. He's a citizen. He's a citizen, he's my brother-in-law.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't know what's going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Also tonight, another scene like this one, a new boat strike in the Caribbean in question surrounding the surprise departure of the military's top commander for the region.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:21:53]

COOPER: New developments in a case we highlighted just last night. A Chicago federal judge ordering the return of the federal vehicle that this woman, Marimar Martinez, allegedly rammed.

Now, since the incident, it's been moved more than a thousand miles away. As we reported, her attorney says the car swerved into her. After impact, the Customs and Border Patrol agent stepped out and shot her five times in self-defense, according to the indictment against her.

It's not been the only recent violent encounter Chicagoans or people across the country have had with federal agents, either as they stop people or during protests against their presence, including this one involving a local pastor shot by a pepper ball outside a Chicago ICE facility.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(VIDEO OF PROTESTERS, BEING SHOT BY PEPPER BALLS OUTSIDE A CHICAGO ICE FACILITY.)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Again, that's just one incident of many. A federal judge today blocked the use of such projectiles. CNN's Shimon Prokupecz takes a closer look at that and more.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Nineteen-year-old Warren King, tackled by a Border Patrol agent outside of a Chicago drugstore.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's a citizen. He's citizen, that's my brother- in-law.

WARREN KING, SUSPECTED ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT: Get away from me.

BORDER PATROL AGENT: You don't know what's going on, so get back. Back up, back up.

PROKUPECZ (voice over): King was detained after a border patrol vehicle crashed into a red SUV. Then a chase for the occupants. King was not involved in the crash and was later released.

KING: I'm telling them I'm a U.S. citizen. I'm here, I'm legal. I'm born here. So, they didn't try to hear none of that though.

PROKUPECZ (voice over): The Department of Homeland Security said the driver of that SUV was in the country illegally, and that the crowd in the area became hostile. That's when teargas was dispersed.

The incident Tuesday in Chicago is just one of many recent ICE encounters caught on tape. A pastor repeatedly shot in the head by pepper balls during a peaceful demonstration outside in Illinois ICE Facility.

A 79-year-old U.S. citizen body slammed during an immigration raid at his Los Angeles Business.

DEBBIE BROCKMAN, JOURNALIST: Brockman!

OFFICER: Brockman.

PROKUPECZ (voice over): A Chicago T.V. station employee, another U.S. citizen taken to the ground by officers, her pants coming off in the altercation.

A woman shoved by an ICE officer at an immigration courthouse in New York. Masked federal agents broke windows of a vehicle and opened fire at a family in San Bernardino. The agents called it self-defense. The family said they fled in fear.

The Governor of Illinois says federal officers are acting aggressively.

GOV. JB PRITZKER (D-IL): ICE is causing this mayhem. They're the ones who are tossing tear gas when people are peacefully protesting. ICE is the one who's going into neighborhoods where they, frankly, are causing fear.

PROKUPECZ (voice over): Concerns over these latest incidents were brought up in a federal courtroom in Chicago today. A judge ordered federal officers in Illinois to turn on their body-worn cameras. And just last week, the judge banned officers from using violent tactics against protesters unless justified.

It's the same judge saying today, "I'm getting images and seeing images on the news in the paper, reading reports where at least from what I'm seeing, I'm having serious concerns that my order's being followed." Speaker of the House Mike Johnson was asked this week if agents have gone too far and if there should be federal oversight.

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): I've not seen them cross the line yet and we have committees of jurisdiction who have that responsibility, but it's not risen to that level.

PROKUPECZ (voice over): Shimon Prokupecz, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[20:25:27]

COOPER: Well, the Department of Homeland Security says these are lawful operations that their agents are defending themselves. But for a lot of communities, what they see instead is fear.

Joining me now is CNN chief law enforcement intelligence analyst John Miller. Are they allowed to wear masks like this and not identify themselves? Because, I mean, if you're a New York City Police officer, correct me if I'm wrong. You have to give your badge number if somebody asks.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: I mean, if you're a police officer anywhere in the United States, you've got a badge, you've got a badge number, you've got a name tag under that, and nobody's wearing masks in law enforcement except these agents on these operations.

And now, you have other agencies working with ICE. So, you've got FBI agents, you've got ATF agents, and everybody is wearing masks. And, you know, the mask is a tricky signal, is it, to make people afraid of you because you're this masked, you know, person in military garb? Or is it because you're afraid of them?

Now, ICE says they're worried about the agents being doxed, about these operations, following them home, them being harassed at home, their families, their kids but its highly unusual. Here's the rub --

COOPER: Also, does being mask embolden you to just do stuff you wouldn't ordinarily do? Like, I mean, if New York City Police officers were able to be masked and not identified, would you know, what impact would that have on behavior?

MILLER: I mean, it's the cachet of anonymity can encourage that. But the problem in the federal system is there is no mask rule. There's no rule against it. There's no rule encouraging it and we've seen other instances where, you know, the agents who perp-walked El Chapo, one of the most feared men in the world with reach to hit teams and endless money, didn't wear a mask. So you wonder why they're essential in these operations for these agents.

COOPER: Do you think the federal judge in Chicago expanding her order to require all federal agents to wear body cameras, is actually going to help? Will it change things?

MILLER: I mean, it could if it works. ICE has only been in the body camera realm since 2024. At that point, I think they had 1,600. They've hired thousands of agents and they're hiring more.

COOPER: Is this now one of the biggest law enforcement agencies in America?

MILLER: Yes, if you go between ICE and Border Patrol, it's the largest law enforcement force, I think on the planet.

COOPER: So, they've just been hiring. I mean, do we know much about the training these officers have? I mean, if-- they need bodies to grab people, how much training, do we know?

MILLER: They all go through the same training. The question is, do they have the -- when they need to hire that many and get that amount of recruiting, are they going through the same standards of recruiting, testing of recruiting? Even if the even if the training is standard, are they getting the very best people because they need a lot of them and they need them right away.

COOPER: Because they're FBI agents, I mean, there was a report about the percentage of FBI agents who have been pulled off cases and are actually just out in the field with these teams grabbing people.

MILLER: At one point, the New York office and the Washington, D.C. office was contributing a hundred FBI agents every week to this effort to go out on these --

COOPER: So, they're not working cases.

MILLER: Whatever their cases were, that comes to a halt.

COOPER: They just go out to the FBI, it's extraordinary.

MILLER: And I mean, this judge, April Ellis in Chicago is getting very frustrated with this. You know, she said I issued my orders. Her orders were quite extensive, and she says, you know, twice since I issued the order about not firing pepper balls from rooftops at people that's occurred. So, she's putting her foot down.

COOPER: John Miller, thank you very much.

Coming up next, more breaking news. A new U.S. military strike targeting an alleged drug boat as the U.S. commander overseeing the entire region and overseeing those strikes, announces he's suddenly leaving the military.

Also tonight, new reporting on administration plans to revamp America's refugee policy. The bottom line if you are Black and African, there's little chance you'll get here. If you're White, however, an African this administration wants you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:34:10]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: We have more breaking news. According to two U.S. officials, the U.S. military has carried out a new strike in the Caribbean on a suspected drug boat. This would be the sixth boat hit in recent weeks, but this time there apparently are survivors.

Meanwhile, the U.S. military commander overseeing those strikes is stepping down. Admiral Alvin Holsey says he's retiring in December after just a year as head of U.S. Southern Command, which oversees all military actions in the Caribbean and South and Central America.

He gave no reason, but two sources familiar with the matter tell CNN that tensions had been simmering between him and Defense Secretary Hegseth. According to these sources, Hegseth did not believe the admiral was moving quickly or aggressively enough against drug traffickers.

Joining me now is CNN Senior Military Analyst, former NATO Supreme Allied Commander and Retired James Stavridis. Admiral, thanks for being here.

So, sources also say that Admiral Holsey has raised concerns about the mission against Venezuela and the attacks on drug boats, alleged drug boats. How surprised are you that he's stepping down less than a year into his posting, which I understand usually are kind of three-year postings?

[20:35:15]

ADM. JAMES STAVRIDIS (RET.), CNN SENIOR MILITARY ANALYST: They are. And, Anderson, before I was the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, I had that job. I had that job for three years. So I know U.S. Southern Command very well.

I think there's three explanations kind of out there as to why he would suddenly depart. And it is surprising to see what's called a combatant commander leave after only a year, typically three years. I was NATO commander for four years. It's very odd to see this.

I think, number one, he could have a personal issue, a medical issue, a family issue that he doesn't want to share. Number two, he could be getting pushed out by the administration. Pete Hegseth came into office and fired the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the chief of naval operations, many senior officers. Admiral Holsey could be part of that.

Or number three, what you alluded to and what some sources are saying, he had discomfort with the attacks against these drug boats. Certainly, I can understand any of those three reasons. But final thought, if you are a senior military officer, you're given an order that you do not believe is right or legal or appropriate or doesn't conform with policy, you have the choice always --

COOPER: Yes.

STAVRIDIS: -- of resigning as opposed to executing it.

COOPER: What do you make of these strikes? I mean, is this something -- as you said, you were commander in this region for three years. Is this something that's ever been done before? Does it follow, you know, protocol or law? STAVRIDIS: I have not seen in my three years this level of aggressive military action. And if you want to go after the drug problem -- and we all do, we want to stop drugs from coming here, you got to start with the demand signal here in the United States, which is drawing these drugs.

You got to go to the supply location. That's Colombia, Ecuador, Peru. You got a supply side and a demand side. And, yes, you have to go after the transit zone. But doing it as it is currently unfolding with strikes without capturing these people does not make sense to me.

I'll close with this. You reported a moment ago, in a recent attack there are survivors, I think that's good. Let's find out what the intelligence is. Who are they working for? Are they tied, in fact, to Maduro? Are they tied to the cartels? We need that intelligence. I think that would be more appropriate than simply blowing up boat after boat.

COOPER: Admiral Stavridis, thanks so much for your time. I appreciate it.

Coming up, new reporting that says President Trump's considering an overhaul of the U.S. refugee system that would heavily favor white people and English speakers. Also ahead, Chef Jose Andres of World Central Kitchen is here to talk about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:42:49]

COOPER: There's new reporting tonight that the Trump administration is considering major changes to the U.S. refugee system. The New York Times reports that it's obtained documents outlining a radical overhaul that would slash the whole process while giving preference to English speakers, white South Africans, and Europeans who oppose the migration policies of their own governments.

Now, the documents reportedly claim that America's acceptance of refugees has made the country too diverse. The State Department told the Times the administration is prioritizing the interests of the American people. CNN and this program in particular have done extensive reporting on how the administration, since its first days in office in January, is making it much harder for people to become legal immigrants to the U.S.

Officials have implemented rules making it more difficult for international students, foreign workers to come here, and the refugee admissions program has largely been halted at this point. A notable exception has been made for white South Africans.

A group arrived at Dulles Airport in May, greeted by U.S. officials, and were granted refugee status. The administration claims they are facing white genocide at home and having their land confiscated. They are Afrikaners, descendants of Dutch settlers.

It is not true. There is no white genocide occurring in South Africa, and land is not being confiscated by the government.

We have a lot to discuss with New York Times Columnist Nicholas Kristof. Nick, you reported just last month from a refugee camp in Uganda on the toll the U.S. foreign aid cuts are having there. You know, children who are dying because of a lack of nutritional paste that hands out -- that's handed out, that costs a few cents, that could save their lives.

Can you just talk about the thousands of people, probably tens of thousands of people, who have been waiting in refugee camps for years, going through the process that the U.S. government told them was the process required of security checks and all sorts of things to come to the United States? They're now just shut out.

NICHOLAS KRISTOF, COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Anderson, I mean, there are more than 100 million people worldwide who are displaced. Many of them would qualify for refugee status. And, of course, you know, some of those --

COOPER: We're obviously having trouble with Nick's internet connection. We'll try to re-establish contact.

[20:45:04]

Up next, we're going to talk also to Chef Jose Andres of World Central Kitchen. He's here to give us a firsthand account of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: We fixed our technical problems. We're back with Nick Kristof and our apologies. So, Nick, just -- can you just talk about what you've seen in refugee camps? Because again, these are people who have waited with, you know, approved by the U.S. government. They've gone through all the hooves and now they're just not going to get to come in.

[20:50:12]

KRISTOF: Yes. I mean, for example, I met a woman whose husband was killed because of his ethnicity. And then she had her little baby. She was unable to walk. So she set out crawling for Uganda from Congo. And now she's still unable to walk because she was gang raped by seven of these soldiers. Again, just because of her ethnicity.

So she is struggling. And now her food and other support have been cut off. She's not eligible for refugee status. And yet a white South African is, or a neo-Nazi in Germany, who is in trouble with German law because of those neo-Nazi slogans, likewise might be eligible. It's just -- it just makes a mockery of the whole idea of refugees, Anderson.

COOPER: And the -- I mean, the idea that there is a white genocide in South Africa, of Afrikaners, I mean, there is a huge crime problem in South Africa. I believe the statistics for the last year, 2024, there were approximately 37 murders on farms, which were crimes of robbery. There were some 26,000 murders in the rest of South Africa. So the idea that somehow there is a genocide in -- on farms, it's just not the case.

KRISTOF: Yes, I mean, black South Africans are more likely to be murdered than white South Africans. And so the idea -- yes, I mean, first of all, the entire refugee system was pretty much dismantled. And then to say that the only sliver of refugee status left is going to go to white South Africans, or to, you know, for example, Germans and AFD who profess neo-Nazi slogans. It's just a caricature.

And, you know, my dad was a refugee, so it feels kind of personal to me, admitted to the U.S. in 1952, not able to speak English. And there were so many other people around there. And, you know, as you know, as well as I, these are folks who can really enrich the country and do a lot for it.

COOPER: I mean, you know, people who are interpreters in Afghanistan, who helped U.S. forces and their families, what impact do you think this is going to have on sort of the soft power of the United States or efforts to get countries to conform to rule-based order?

KRISTOF: Well, the U.S. has always, you know, very imperfectly stood for some kinds of values. And we talked about the rules-based international order. And, you know, countries pointed out correctly that we always violated those precepts, but there was still a kernel of truth to it. I mean, that's why my dad wanted to come to the U.S. in 1952.

And now I think people around the world, they see the U.S. having almost completely dismantled aid. They see instead $40 billion now, it appears, headed toward Argentina to support a friend of the president. They see the refugee system being dismantled. They see -- I mean, we'll see what happens with Russia and Ukraine.

But there seems to be a systematic dismantling of the values that genuinely were in our interest as well. Our values and interests, I think, often coincided and supported each other. And now they're being whittled away.

COOPER: Yes. Nick Kristof, I so appreciate you being on. I appreciate the work you have been doing. Thank you.

The ceasefire between Israel and Hamas is still holding tonight, but President Trump's now issuing a warning. He says, if Hamas keeps executing people in Gaza, there'll be no choice but to go in and kill them. Meanwhile -- or -- and disarm them. Meanwhile, Hamas did not release the remains of any deceased hostages today.

As of last night, it's returned only nine of the 28 bodies that were supposed to have been returned by now. Despite earlier threats by Israel to restrict humanitarian aid until more bodies are released, U.S. and Israeli officials say aid is going in under terms agreed to in the ceasefire deal. Trucks were on the move in Gaza today after more than 700 crossed into the territory yesterday.

Joining us now is Chef Jose Andres, founder of World Central Kitchen. I mean, you've seen the crisis there firsthand. What are your teams on the ground or in the region seeing?

CHEF JOSE ANDRES, WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN: Well, obviously, what we try to do is as many meals as we can. The need is obviously very high. Right now, we are doing around 600,000 hot meals a day, tens of thousands of gallons of water a day, but it's not enough.

COOPER: And that's coming in across borders?

ANDRES: It's coming through two or three points. Borders keep closing and opening as these over the last two years. So right now, the main entry through Jordan has been closed. But then it's been the entry that comes directly from the north through Israel, the one in the south, through what is the Rafah crossing. But this has been changing over the last two years.

[20:55:13]

The most important is that humanitarian aid keeps flowing. If it keeps flowing, nobody is going to go hungry. But the need is even more than just food and water. People are going to need tents for this winter. People are going to be needing hospitals, medicines, equipment, machinery to start cleaning all the rubble from every single road.

When I was there last month and I -- in my way out, I was in Rafah over a year and a half ago. And right now, you've seen the Rafah -- I saw, and the Rafah is today, they were like two different towns. It's like very much an atomic bomb kind of fall in the middle of the town.

So the destruction is very big. You mentioned about the hostages. It's going to be -- I hope, every single hostage goes back to their families. But the rubble, the destruction is such that I think it could happen, hopefully. But they need machinery to do that. But then in Gaza right now, we need every single other thing that is needed to provide the humanitarian assistance that every person in Gaza needs.

COOPER: And what about the -- I mean, how is distribution? How -- obviously, there were, you know, people jumping on vehicles for a long time because people were desperate and obviously a desperate situation. Are groups able to operate now?

ANDRES: Well, obviously, World Central Kitchen, we have four main kitchens. With those, we can be doing around 250,000, 350,000 meals. And then we have up to 80 other partner kitchens. We're trying to increase it to 200.

And by being in different places all at once, it's what we believe we can reach almost 1 million hot meals a day. But that's, again, that's not enough. We need to make sure that everybody is fed.

So every different group, if there are humanitarian groups doing medical, if there are ones opening right now orphanage for many children that they are without families, we need as much aid as we can, the distribution, because still the situation is complicated and seems there's some other factions --

COOPER: Right. ANDRES: -- beyond Hamas that they are playing a role. You are trying to be --

COOPER: We will see execution in this phase (ph).

ANDRES: You are trying to be as close as you can from the communities you are taking care of. That's why for us, more kitchens, more distribution points is the way we can be reaching more people so those people can have quick access to the food, to the water, and everything else they may need.

COOPER: I mean, in operating there, there have always been, you know, charges of Hamas or other groups taking food for themselves or just individuals, obviously, desperate people doing desperate things. Is that an operational issue for your organization?

ANDRES: We've not seen that. We operate in a very simple way. Our -- the people of Gaza, feeding the people of Gaza, Palestinians feeding Palestinians.

COOPER: You're trying to mobilize kitchens that exist there in some cases.

ANDRES: Well, we are opening new ones because it's a lot of destruction. But then it's certain restaurants that they are able to operate from the buildings that are OK. So we support those restaurants to increase their output. We support other organizations that they are feeding people.

Instead of doing 1,000 meals, you do 2,000. So we are trying to maximize the output of everybody that right now is trying to do food, bread, water.

COOPER: I mean, you've operated all around the world. In terms of this situation on the ground there, is it the most complex to operate in?

ANDRES: This has been the most complex by far, ever. The situation has been over two years of 2 million people keep moving from north to south, from east to west, from west to south. And we've been just following the need. And that's what you have to do. You have to adapt.

Let's hope that this peace ceasefire stays and we can just build the infrastructure needed to start providing everything the people of Palestine needs. Food, water, medicines, hospitals, and so much more. Therefore, let's hope that this ceasefire really is going to last because it's the only way that this people -- the people of Palestine can go back to what we can say normal lives.

COOPER: Chef Jose Andres, thank you so much. Appreciate it. World Central Kitchen.

A quick note, we are expanding my podcast, "All There Is," about grief and loss. There's a QR code that we're putting on the screen. It's going to take you to the new "All There Is" website with everything we have going on. The big news, we're expanding and we're going to be releasing new episodes all year long. So there will be a lot more for you to listen to. The first new episode comes out the evening of October 28th, wherever you get your podcasts.

We're also launching a companion streaming show called "All There Is Live" on October 30th at 9:15 p.m. Eastern Time. It will be a live, weekly, interactive show. I'll be talking to guests, playing voicemails and videos from podcasts, listeners, interacting with people, watching through our comments section live.

So that's going to be a new weekly program. I think of it as kind of like an old school, late night, radio call-in show about grief. You can watch the show at CNN.com/AllThereIs or on the CNN mobile app.

That's it for us. The news continues. I'll see you tomorrow. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.