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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

New York Times: Trump Wants DOJ To Pay Him $230M For Past Cases; Trump Nominee Ingrassia Withdraws From Confirmation Hearing; Jewels Stolen In Louvre Heist Estimated To Be Worth $102 Million; Pres. Trump Embraces AI To Post Mocking Videos; Epstein Survivor Virginia Giuffre's Posthumous Memoir Published; HBO Documentary "Armed Only With A Camera" Shows The Dangers Journalists Face While Reporting In Conflict Zones; Documentary Highlights Impact OF Brent Renaud's Work. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired October 21, 2025 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANDREW KACZYNSKI, CNN KFILE SENIOR EDITOR: Yes, but is Paul Ingrassia, he was getting nominated. I mean, these statements are very also sort of part of why he's nominated. He was so pro-Trump in 2024. He was on -- what were his credentials, right. He was a just had graduated from college, just passed the bar. His only credential to be nominated for a position like this was such a pro-Trump commentator.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right, Andrew Kaczynski of KFile, thank you very much. And thanks so much to all of you. AC360 starts now.

[20:00:30]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, new reporting that the President is asking the Justice Department to pay him nearly a quarter billion dollars in taxpayer money for prosecuting him. One catch though, top justice officials have to sign off on it. The good news for the President. He appointed them and wants his former defense attorney in the case.

Also, breaking news a top Presidential pick to lead the office of special counsel, who allegedly privately admitted having a, "Nazi streak" has just backed out of a Senate confirmation hearing after racist and offensive messages, including that Nazi one, surfaced.

And later, Epstein survivor Virginia Giuffre's harrowing story of abuse at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. My conversation with the author, who helped her tell it.

Good evening, thanks for joining us. There's a fortune to be made in cutting out the middleman. And tonight, the President of United States has discovered perhaps the ultimate way to do just that. "The New York Times" was the first to report it. The headline reads, Trump said to demand Justice Department pay him $230 million for past cases. He wants nearly a quarter billion dollars in taxpayer money, according to "The Times" report.

The President is trying to get it through a pair of administrative claims, seeking damages from the government for purported violations of his rights, first, during the Robert Mueller Russian interference investigation and then the search and subsequent prosecution of him over classified documents he kept at Mar-a-Lago, most notably in a bathroom and a ballroom.

Now, according to "The Times" he is accusing the FBI of violating his privacy in the search, and the Justice Department of malicious prosecution. And here's where the notion of cutting out the middleman comes into play, to the tune of $230 million. The President first seemed to allude to it last week, although he used the word lawsuit, which these claims aren't yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I have a lawsuit that was doing very well, and when I became President, I said, I'm sort of suing myself. I don't know, how do you settle the lawsuit? I'll say, give me X dollars, right, and I don't know what to do with the lawsuit. It's a great lawsuit. And now I won it, so it looks bad. I'm suing myself, right. So, I don't know, but that was a lawsuit that was a very strong, very powerful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, if it's very strong, it's made all the more so because of this cherry on the top of the admitted self-dealing. According to DOJ's internal guidelines, such big settlements, like $230 million, have to be approved by the Deputy Attorney General. And if you don't know, you probably guessed who the Deputy Attorney General is. It's this guy who is the President's handpicked guy for the job.

His name is Todd Blanche, and Mr. Blanche was -- here's the kicker, the President's former criminal defense attorney in his New York hush money felony conviction and the classified documents case.

And there's another justice official authorized to approve a payout to the President and that is a guy named Stanley Woodward, Jr. And if that name sounds at all familiar, which I doubt it does, it's because Mr. Woodward represented the President's co-defendant in the documents case, his former valet, Walt Nauta.

Now, Woodward, that's Walt Nauta -- Woodward, like Todd, Blanche was also appointed to his job by the President. So The White House, according to the "Times" referred all questions about the story to the DOJ and quoting from the article now, "Asked if either Mr. Blanche or Mr. Woodward would recuse or have been recused from overseeing the possible settlement with Mr. Trump, a Justice Department spokesman, Chad Gilmartin, said, "In any circumstance, all officials of the Department of Justice follow the guidance of career ethics officials."

Which is an interesting response when you consider that in July, as part of a wider purge of employees who worked with former Special Counsel Jack Smith, Attorney General Pam Bondi fired the department's top ethics official, a man named Joseph Terrell.

Talking to "The Times," an ethics professor says, and I quote, " ...to have people in the Justice Department decide whether his claim should be successful or not, and these are the people who serve him, deciding whether he wins or loses, it is bizarre and almost too outlandish to believe."

CNN's Kaitlan Collins asked the President about it this afternoon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: "The New York Times" is reporting that your legal team is seeking $230 million from your own Justice Department now, in response to the investigations into you, is that something you want your legal team to do?

TRUMP: I don't know what the numbers are. I don't even talk to them about it. All I know is that they would owe me a lot of money, but I don't -- I'm not looking for money. I'd give it to charity or something. I would give it to charity.

Now, with the country, it's interesting because I'm the one that makes a decision, right? And you know, that decision would have to go across my desk. And it's awfully strange to make a decision where I'm paying myself. In other words, did you ever have one of those cases where you have to decide how much you're paying yourself in damages? But I was damaged very greatly, and any money that I would get, I would give to charity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, the amount in question closely matches what the President says is being spent on his new ballroom. This is a new picture from "The Washington Post" just today of the scale of the demolition for this ballroom, which began yesterday on The White House East Wing. But at a thank you dinner last week for the corporate donors who were said to be paying the $200 million cost of constructing it, the President himself said it was already fully funded.

Now, keeping them honest, though, the President seems to have forgotten that because just this morning, talking about the sound of construction equipment, he suggested that no, in fact, he was the guy footing the bill.

[20:05:45]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think when I hear that sound, it reminds me of money. In this case, it reminds me of lack of money because I'm paying for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: So maybe he'll use the $230 million he's hoping to get for that, or for charity, as he said he would or perhaps hell use it to buy more inventory for another potential White House money maker.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Hello everyone, it's your favorite President Donald J. Trump here to introduce something really special. I think you're going to love it. My new Trump watches. We're doing quite a number with watches.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Yes, he's doing that in 2024, quite a number indeed. If the President does want to give it to charity, he need look no further than the capital area food bank, where today volunteers handed out canned and dry goods to more than 370 households of federal employees and contractors who have been hit by the government shutdown, which is now at three weeks and counting.

Joining me now, CNN senior political commentator David Urban. He's a former Trump campaign adviser, CNN senior political commentator and former Republican Congressman from Illinois, Adam Kinzinger, and former federal prosecutor, Jeff Toobin.

Jeff, I mean, this is allowed or is it?

JEFF TOOBIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, there is such a thing as filing claims against the government for malicious prosecution, it's very rare. "The Times" story is a great story, but it doesn't exactly say how they're doing it. There's something called the Federal Tort Claims Act. There's something called the Hyde Amendment that allows you to sue if you were the subject of like, really a bad faith prosecution.

COOPER: The prosecution knew it wasn't true but they're going after you anyway.

TOOBIN: Exactly, there have been very few successful claims under those laws in these circumstances. But obviously, in all of those claims, the defendant is the Justice Department. Here you have the President suing the Justice Department, which of course is run by his appointees, including people who represented him in these cases. So the conflict of interest is just so obvious and egregious. I don't think there would be any way it could be worked out in an ethical way.

COOPER: David. I mean, the President kind of gave a head nod to this. I mean, the timing of this, certainly it does -- you know, there's a shutdown. People are struggling. Does the President deserve $230 million of taxpayer money?

DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, Anderson, listen, clearly I don't think so. You know, as Jeff points out, there is a process for this. It's my understanding this case was filed, the process had begun several years ago. So, I think the timing is something that's, you know, just kind of percolating up now by this story kind of making its way to the top.

But, you know, does Donald Trump deserve $230 million for what Comey and the previous administration did in the Russia kind of collusion case? You know, if he wasn't President and he was, you know, damaged and somehow, you know, he's pretty pissed about it. And so are tons of other people who got caught up in that knowing full well that, you know, a lot of people believe that full well, that there was no collusion, everything was made up, you know, the FISA warrants were invalid. I mean, there's so many problems with it that, as Jeff says, malicious prosecution doesn't even kind of go there.

So, I think Donald Trump is rightfully upset about that. But does he deserve $230, million taxpayer dollars? I don't think anyone would say so.

COOPER: I mean, Congressman, it is kind of remarkable, the people who ultimately decide whether this payment is approved are the President's own top appointees at the Justice Department, I mean, his own personal attorney in one case and what not his personal attorney. Do you see any scenario in which he doesn't get this money?

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, if he makes a decision that he's going to give it up, then yes, I guess that would be the case. If he does end up getting the money. I mean, my goodness. And here's the thing, if this ends up happening and, and I think actually, before this decision is made, every GOP member of Congress and the Senate has to be asked what they think about that. They have oversight into money. I mean, they're the ones that spend money.

Ask what they think about that, they cannot be allowed to obfuscate, they just need to be clear. Yes, he deserves it, or no, he doesn't like David was very clear about.

And by the way, they've been out for four weeks, no town halls. They should have town halls. But yes, I just -- I think if it happens, it's just going to be one of the things that adds to the story of the grift out of the White House.

$400 million jet that the taxpayers are going to pay upwards of a billion dollars to upgrade that Donald Trump takes with him. And its owned by the Trump Library that doesn't mean it hangs in the library. He still gets to fly it through the library.

I think the DOJ should be spending some time right now actually releasing the Epstein files, which Donald Trump could release right now if he chose, and less on this.

[20:10:33]

COOPER: I'd forgotten that detail about the jet, that it belongs to the library, but he gets to fly it. Its' not like the Reagan Plane that actually sat in the library. It's kind of an amazing thing. It's like a moving library.

URBAN: Anderson, maybe ask Jeff Toobin, is the statute run on this? How long can Trump sue after he's President?

TOOBIN: Well, it depends on what he's suing about. I mean, that's why this is all a little vague. I think for many federal claims, it's only a two-year statute of limitations. So anything regarding the Mueller investigation, unless it was filed two years after the end of the Mueller investigation, it would be too late. But since we're talking about the legal aspects of this, there's a really sort of pernicious part of all this. Let's say there's some sort of settlement. The Justice Department pays Donald Trump $200 million, $100 million, $30 million, I don't think anyone can challenge that legally.

COOPER: Not like a third party, like for taxpayers?

TOOBIN: There's no such thing as taxpayer standing under the law. It has to be someone directly affected by the underlying conduct. And to talk about an insider game here, so they could pay this money and be completely insulated from any legal challenge to it.

COOPER: Also, I mean, if all the reporting by "The New York Times" from back when he first ran is correct, his record on giving to charities was always somewhat checkered. Also, never quite what it seemed.

TOOBIN: Well, he always said, I'm going to pay for my own campaign. He didn't really pay for his own campaign. He took lots of campaign contributions. A promise to that -- to give to charity is not something you can take to the bank, as it were.

COOPER: David Urban, Adam Kinzinger --

URBAN: Anderson, maybe he'll use it to pay down the debt.

COOPER: Maybe, all right, we'll see.

TOOBIN: Don't hold your breath.

COOPER: David Urban, Adam Kinzinger, Jeff Toobin, thanks very much.

Just ahead, authorities put a huge price tag on The Louvre heist, and new questions emerge about security shortcomings.

Also, breaking news on a top Presidential pick. This guy whose confirmation was already in deep trouble. As it is, this latest development could end it entirely. We'll show you what he has said in the past.

And CNN's Tom Foreman on the President's appetite for post posting A.I. images.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:17:15]

COOPER: We have more breaking news, a major announcement from Paul Ingrassia, the President's embattled pick to lead the Office of Special Counsel, which is an office you kind of want someone with the highest ethical standards for.

Mr. Ingrassia is not formally withdrawing his nomination, but on Truth Social, he writes, "I will be withdrawing myself from Thursday's Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee hearing to lead the Office of Special Counsel, because unfortunately, I do not have enough Republican votes at this time."

Ingrassia adds, "I appreciate the overwhelming support that I've received throughout this process and will continue to serve President Trump and his administration to make America great again."

Now, he says he's receiving overwhelming support, but more Republicans have been speaking out against his nomination following new reporting from POLITICO, we first told you about last night, alleging racist and other offensive comments from Ingrassia in a text chain with a half dozen Republican operatives and influencers.

One, reportedly from January of last year, "MLK, Jr. was the 1960s George Floyd and his holiday should be ended and tossed into the seventh circle of hell where it belongs." "Jesus Christ," one participant responded.

In another alleged text, someone writes, "Paul belongs in the Hitler youth with Obergruppenfuhrer Steve Bannon," to which Ingrassia responded again according to POLITICO, "I do have a Nazi streak in me from time to time, I will admit."

Ingrassia's attorney told POLITICO, in part, "In this age of A.I., authentication of allegedly leaked messages, which could be outright falsehoods, doctored or manipulated or lacking critical context is extremely difficult." He added, "We do not concede the authenticity of any of these purported messages."

Kristen Holmes, joins me now with more on Ingrassia's plan to skip the actual hearing. So, I mean, is it just that he's skipping this hearing, or is this nomination clearly dead?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It certainly seems as though it is dead. And we have reached out to the White House for some clarification on this, just because of the way that it was worded in this post. This essentially, "I don't have the votes right now. I'm withdrawing from the hearing, not withdrawing my nomination overall."

But one thing is clear, The White House has known since yesterday that there were not enough votes to get Ingrassia across the finish line, and that was reiterated to them today when Republican Senators came to the White House for a lunch. And we heard from Senator Thune, who is someone who opposed the nomination, who came out to the microphones to talk after that lunch. And he said he believed or hinted at The White House doing something.

I was also told by a White House officials to expect some sort of announcement or news on the Ingrassia nomination as soon or later today. We know that the white house and President Trump have no tolerance for bringing somebody or no desire to bring someone before a committee for a hearing that they're not going to get confirmed out of. We've seen it with Ed Martin, we've seen it with Matt Gaetz.

So, clearly here they knew the writing was on the wall. Paul himself put this statement out. But again, after a White House official told me we'd be hearing about this by the end of the day. [20:20:14]

COOPER: So, Ingrassia talks about continuing to serve President Trump at this administration. Is he, I mean, is he working in The White House? What is what is he doing? Are there people at the White House still thinks he belongs in government service?

HOLMES: Right now, what he had been doing, he was serving as a liaison to the Department of Justice. He had done work during the campaign, and of course, he was waiting for this confirmation hearing. There had been a lot of controversy around his nomination even before these texts came out. But it is likely that you're going to hear about him potentially still working for the administration or working outside of the administration, but helping within the administration.

Again, I will point to Matt Gaetz and Ed Martin; Ed Martin, who was taken out of the running for confirmation job, but then given another job where he didn't have to be confirmed and has a pretty sizable influence on the Justice Department and various U.S. attorneys right now.

COOPER: All right, Kristen Holmes, appreciate it.

The Louvre in Paris remained closed today after a brazen daytime robbery on Sunday. As you probably heard about it, eight Napoleonic- era artifacts were stolen from the museum. A Paris prosecutor tells a French radio station that the jewels are valued at $102 million and according to France's Culture Ministry, the pieces were not insured.

There are new questions about existing vulnerabilities at the museum. A recent audit report, obtained by French news outlets noted a persistent delay in updating security systems there.

In another memo from January this year and confirmed to CNN by The Louvre, the president of the museum requested urgent help from France's Culture Minister, detailing increased damage to the building and deteriorating conditions, including water leaks and overcrowding.

For the latest in the investigation into the stolen jewels, I want to talk to CNN's chief law enforcement intelligence analyst, John Miller. I mean, this is such an incredible case, like something out of a movie from the 70s. I feel like I watched a lot. What are you hearing?

JOHN MILLER, CNN'S CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, right now, since there's no solid lead that has them on to a particular band of thieves, their focus at BRB, the squad that's running this for the Paris Prefect of Police is on forensics. They tried to set that truck on fire that had the lift that brought them up to the window but somebody interfered with them, so they continued to flee. They're processing that truck.

They went to take the truck into a garage where they fume these things to bring up fingerprints or DNA traces. But it was too small, so they literally constructed a tent around it to go through with that process. Today, they recovered one of the scooters. This is the Yamaha TMAX. It's got like a top speed of like 90 miles an hour. But there's two of these that were in the getaway. And, you know, they're agile and fast. What can they get off of that in terms of forensics? A helmet was found, a vest was found.

So, all of this is being processed against the database that's going to have all of the people who have been arrested for felonies or been in prison, but also any DNA that was recovered at the scene of other unsolved robberies.

COOPER: It is remarkable because there are videos of people videotaping these guys inside, you know, breaking through the glass case, you know, putting stuff in bags. People were watching this as it was happening. How bad has security of The Louvre been, and has it been on peoples radar for a while?

MILLER: So, that's really interesting, Anderson, because, you know, you mentioned The Louvre was closed again today, not closed to continue to process the crime scene. The guards basically walked off the job and said, we weren't addressed. Nobody brought us together in a group similar to a walkout they did a couple of years ago.

But what they're pointing to is only a third, according to them, of the museum rooms have cameras. Over the last 15 years, the reductions in staff have made it fewer guards and fewer people to monitor those rooms. A leaked report by their equivalent of the General Accounting Office calls a lot of this out but the final report isn't out, and they're saying the funding that's coming, that they've been asking for won't be enough to really make the difference. This will probably change that.

COOPER: It's likely. I mean, these things are not like in a James Bond film where there's a Dr. No character who's, like, putting these jewels on his cat. I mean, these all probably have already been dismantled.

MILLER: Depending on how fast they move and, you know, even dismantled, even melted down the appearance of gems that are, you know, hundreds of years old, you know, appearing suddenly in groups of sapphires and rubies and emeralds on the market is going to really -- for the BRB, which is the Brigade Against Banditry, it's that special squad in the Paris prefect of police that does organized crime, robbery and these kind of gangs, these are the people who solve the Kardashian robbery of her $4 million wedding ring and the rest of those jewels, the Harry Winston robbery by the Pink Panther Gang.

There are other strengths beyond collecting all of this. Forensics is going to be using their entire network of underworld sources throughout Paris. So, I'm a little confident that -- not confident they're going to get all this stuff back intact. I'm pretty confident they're going to find out who did it.

COOPER: Interesting, John Miller, thanks.

Up next, President Trump's use of A.I. technology to post mocking videos of his perceived enemies has the support of allies and top aides. More on that ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He likes to repost things that he sees other people post on social media as well, and I think it's quite refreshing that we have a President who is so open and honest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:25:38]

COOPER: Sure, Britain's disgraced Prince Andrew is facing new scrutiny with the publication of a posthumous memoir of Virginia Giuffre, the Jeffrey Epstein, survivor. More on her story ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:30:27]

COOPER: If you haven't noticed lately, President Trump seems to be fully embracing AI memes usually meant to troll those he sees his enemies like Democrats or No Kings protesters who rallied across the country this weekend. This is the one he put out in response to the Saturday's demonstrations nationwide. It's an AI video of Trump wearing a crown while piloting a fighter jet and dumping waste on the protesters. His allies all seem to be OK with, of course, the president of United States publicly sending out kind of mean girl memes. More tonight from CNN's Tom Foreman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With the unauthorized use of a popular song and an unabashed taste for trolling, President Donald Trump has once again posted an AI Generated video ridiculing millions of Americans who oppose him and energizing those on his side.

GREG GUTFELD, FOX NEWS HOST: Something as absurd as protesting kings in a country without kings doesn't merit anything more than a meme with poop landing on protesters.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Fake videos of former President Barack Obama being arrested, Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries as a mariachi and a dark promise to keep firing federal workers as the government shutdown grinds on. The White House shrugs off the parade of presidential propaganda as just good fun.

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He likes to share memes. He likes to share videos. He likes to repost, things that he sees other people post on social media as well. And I think it's quite refreshing that we have a president who is so open and honest.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will make America great again.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Trump's campaign to retake the White House last year sizzled with AI created images, including this one claiming mega pop star Taylor Swift endorsed him, although she actually ended up backing Democrat Kamala Harris. And these after Trump lied about Haitian immigrants in a debate.

TRUMP: They're eating the dogs. The people that came in, they're eating the cats.

FOREMAN (voice-over): As President Trump posted this AI video months ago suggesting he would turn war torn Gaza into a beach resort. And this one of him dancing with billionaire Elon Musk and more and more and more. The New York Times found Trump has posted AI generated images or videos at least 62 times on his Truth Social account since late 2022.

FOREMAN: It's all counterfeit, much of it patently untrue. Yet top Republicans show virtually no qualms with Trump's fakery.

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), MAJORITY LEADER: He is using satire to make a point. He is not calling for the murder of his political opponents. And that's what these people are doing.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Tom, thanks.

Joining me now, journalist and co-founder of Lift Our Voices, Gretchen Carlson.

I mean, you know, the White House just sees this as good fun and, you know, and anybody who talks about it in a way that doesn't love it is a loser.

GRETCHEN CARLSON, JOURNALIST: Well, welcome to the modern form of political messaging and the modern form of political propaganda. I mean, this is where we are right now with this. I do think it's an incredibly dangerous slippery slope for journalists like you and me, because we're already up against the whole fake news mantra that happened in the last 10 years. And now you add in the power of AI. I mean, I think everyone pretty much knows that video is probably not accurate or true.

COOPER: He doesn't actually know how to fly a plane.

CARLSON: Well, he doesn't, and so far, he's not a king. But the reality is that AI is going to be a huge threat to the role of journalism in our society because people are already questioning it. And how are you going to actually know what the truth is for unassuming people? It's going to be incredibly difficult.

COOPER: It is interesting, though, to apply the Obama rule for some of this stuff. Like, if President Obama had done this, like, would you -- like when President Obama wore a tan suit at a press conference in 2014, there were Republicans who were outraged that he wore a tan suit on a summer day at a press conference, that it was unpresidential. I mean, he wasn't hosting a meme of him pooping on, you know, anybody, it was just he was wearing a tan suit. And yet back then that Republicans who like to claim the moral high ground back then were outraged.

CARLSON: Well, I think it's an understatement to say that things have completely changed. Look, I still believe that President Trump is an enigma when it comes to these things with regard to decorum.

[20:35:05]

You know, for a while, when Vivek Ramaswamy, remember that name, he was running against Trump in the primaries, and he started to be a little bit like Trump with these sort of outrageous statements. And I thought, wow, this is really starting to rub off on other politicians. They're going to be able to get away with this. But then he quickly petered out and Trump became the nominee. So I still believe that Trump is the only person to be able to not have decorum.

Remember, people did not vote for him for this. They voted for inflation, economy, immigration.

COOPER: Although some of this was baked in of, you know, there's a lot of people who like that. It's a big middle finger to, you know, protesters or whoever.

CARLSON: Yes, I think the MAGA base. But look, I think the majority of the American public thinks that this is stupid and that this is disgusting. And as a parent, like you and I are and millions of other people out there, what do we try and teach our children every day? To put poop on top of people?

COOPER: I know a lot of -- I know a lot of three year olds who would love that.

CARLSON: They would think this is really funny --

COOPER: Right.

CARLSON: -- but I'm talking about just trying to be a parent. I'm actually really glad that my kids are past the actual impressionable age right now because there's millions of people out there tonight who aren't. And that is the problem with all of this. How do you -- how do you teach your children what is decorum when you have the president of the United States acting in this way? And it really lies with responsibility of Republicans to speak up and say they're not going tolerate it, but they won't.

COOPER: Gretchen Carlson, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Coming up next, the co-author of Virginia Roberts Giuffre's posthumous memoirs on their collaboration and the chilling revelations in the book. Later, my conversation with the makers of a new HBO documentary about the first American journalist killed reporting on the Ukraine war.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [20:41:21]

COOPER: Quick update on office of special counsel nominee Paul Ingrassia, who were just reporting on. Earlier tonight, he had pulled out of his confirmation hearing. Well, now the White House is making it concrete, quote, "he's longer being nominated" is how one official there put it in. Ingrassia continues to serve as a White House liaison to the Department of Homeland Security.

Also tonight, Arizona's attorney general is suing House Speaker Mike Johnson for not swearing in Congresswoman-elect Adelita Grijalva. The Congresswoman-elect is the first signature needed for a bipartisan discharge petition for a vote to release all the Epstein files. Speaker Johnson, as you know, has gone to great lengths to keep that from happening, all while claiming the opposite most recently today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNSON: We want maximum transparency and that is exactly what the American people are getting right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, the House speaker today touting full disclosure while actually slow walking it. There was, however, true disclosure today in the publication of Virginia Roberts Giuffre's posthumous autobiography. The title, "Nobody's Girl, A Memoir of Surviving Abuse and Fighting for Justice." Co-author Amy Wallace joins us in just a moment.

Giuffre died by suicide earlier this year, but she documented the abuse she suffered at the hands of Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. Quoting now from the book, "Just when I thought things couldn't get worse for me, they did. Epstein trafficked me to a man who raped me more savagely than anyone had before. We were on Epstein's island when I was ordered to take this man to a cabana. Immediately it was clear that this man, whom I've taken pains to describe in legal filings only as a well-known prime minister, wasn't interested in caresses.

He wanted violence. He repeatedly choked me until I lost consciousness and took pleasure in seeing me in fear for my life."

About Prince Andrew, she writes, quote, "I hadn't wanted to have sex with the prince, I said, but I felt I had to. Our livelihoods depended on it, for one thing. But I also truly believe there was no way for me to free myself from Epstein and Maxwell's grip."

And then there's this, quote, "He put his hand on my back, a fond gesture that was rare for him. I hope you know how much I appreciate you for embracing my lifestyle, he began, as Maxwell cozied up to me -- up next to me, too. Over the past several months, you've shown me a devotion that is difficult to find. The friends I've introduced you to agree you are a delightful young woman. He took a breath and wondered where all this was going -- and I wondered where all this was going.

Then he came out with it, Jenna, I want you to have our baby." Joining us now is her co-author, Amy Wallace. It's just remarkable, the details in this. Near the end of the book, she says, "I don't regret it, but the constant telling and retelling has been extremely painful and exhausting. With this book, I seek to free myself from my past." You worked with her for four years, how do you think she would feel to have this out in the public now?

AMY WALLACE, CO-AUTHOR, "NOBODY'S GIRL": Well, she made it very clear how she would feel because she sent me an e-mail about three weeks before she died saying, in the case of my passing, I want this book published not just for me, but for all survivors of sexual abuse. Not just Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, but for anyone who has been coerced into sex against their will. So she very much wanted this book published, and I think she would be very proud and it's a victory for her even after her passing.

COOPER: She writes in the book, "I believe that I might die a sex slave." And another point says, "Inside I was seething. Day and night my every waking moment was circumscribed by his wants and needs," talking about Epstein. I was caught in the trap of familiar diminishment. But still, something about Epstein's hold on me kept me docile and acquiescent.

What do you think -- what do you think it was at the core of it?

WALLACE: Well, I think she writes about this really eloquently. You know, there's sort of a predator's playbook in this -- in this narrative, in this memoir. Not only were these girls deceived into, lured into a home thinking they were going to give a massage and then sexually, you know, raped and assaulted by both Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, but then they were also had this sort of mental jujitsu that the classic groomer does, which is, we are going to degrade you sexually, emotionally, physically, but we are also going to tell you we see something in you. You're special. And a lot of these girls had not heard that ever.

[20:45:41]

And some of them definitely had not heard it enough. And there was this class issue as well. They were poor girls for the most part. They were chosen from the seedier side of the tracks. They were desperate financially.

And these posh people were telling them they saw promise in them. And there was a real -- Virginia writes about it really movingly, that that was kind of what kept her enmeshed in that world because she did feel validated in a very strange way. In her case also, and this may have been true for other victims, she was actually threatened by Jeffrey Epstein. He showed her a picture of Sky, who I believe you've interviewed her younger brother, five years younger, and said, we know where he goes to school, if you ever turn on me, I will hurt him. So she had a lot of things keeping her in line.

COOPER: She also writes -- I mean, she -- there's a lot of blame placed on Maxwell in addition to Epstein. I mean, she said at one point that she saw them as two halves of a wicked hold -- of a wicked whole. I wonder what do you think she would make of Maxwell now being moved to this other less secure, cozier prison.

WALLACE: Well, I think she would -- she would be aghast at the moving her to basically a club fed. You know, it's a minimum security prison. She would also be aghast at the idea that anyone is considering possibly pardoning this woman. She's not only a proven sexual predator, she's been convicted in a court of law of being involved in the whole sexual trafficking scheme. So this book makes clear that Ghislaine Maxwell was not just the receptionist that kept the notes on when the next girl was going to come.

And not just a procurer, although she did procure, and that was in itself evil. But she also sexually abused these young girls herself. She said to them repeatedly, come over here and sexually service me. She hurt them. Virginia describes a scene where Ghislaine hurt her during sex with a variety of ghastly sex tools to make her pay for something that Ghislaine was angry at her about.

So this woman is an abuser in her own right. And the fact that anyone is even bandying about the idea that she might be pardoned is just unthinkable.

COOPER: Yes, I mean, it's just such a -- it's just -- the whole thing is just so awful. To have her voice out there, though, I think is so important. It puts -- it makes her into much more of a human since she's not here to speak for herself right now.

WALLACE: Well, and that was a real goal of the book. You know, obviously a lot of the most terrible things in the book have gotten a lot of attention over the past week as it's been about to be released today. But we really tried to depict her as a woman in full. You know, this was a complicated person. This was a person who had a huge heart.

This was a person who not only had very terrible things happen to her in her childhood, in her young adulthood, but she also then escaped from those two people.

COOPER: Yes.

WALLACE: She then became a mom, she then became an advocate. And we show her in that evolution --

COOPER: Yes.

WALLACE: -- pressing for the world to be a better place for all of us.

COOPER: Yes. Well, thank you so much for being here with us.

WALLACE: Of course. I really appreciate it.

COOPER: The book is "Nobody's Girl." Amy Wallace, thank you.

The premier of an HBO documentary that looks back on the life of a journalist who reported on conflicts around the world was killed by Russian forces in Ukraine. That's next.

[20:49:12] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRAIG RENAUD, BROTHER OF BRENT RENAUD: And I said, where was he shot? And I said, did he have his vest on? And he said, yes. And then I said, was he shot in the -- in the vest or the face?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, tonight it appears that a possible summit between President Trump and Russian leader Vladimir Putin is off the table for now. The president says that a meeting right now might be a waste of his time. He's expressing frustration that Russia and Ukraine don't seem willing find a way to end the war.

On a related note, tonight, HBO Documentary Films presents "Armed Only with a Camera, The Life and Death of Brent Renaud." He was an award winning documentary filmmaker and journalist seen here without a necktie, standing with his younger brother Craig, his longtime collaborator. Brent was killed by Russian soldiers in Ukraine in March of 2022, the first American journalist to be killed reporting on the war. The documentary chronicles his years spent reporting on conflicts around the world. It was created by Craig Renaud and Juan Arredondo, a photojournalist wounded in the attack that took Brent's life.

We'll meet them in a moment, but first, here's a clip from the film.

[20:55:05]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, let's go from here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brent, let's go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, let's go. Let's get out of here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

BRENT RENAUD, JOURNALIST: Soldiers over there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Craig Renaud and Juan Arredondo join me now. Thank you both for being with us.

And Craig, I'm sorry for your loss. And Juan as well. What was it that drove your brother to the farthest reaches of the planet to cover man's inhumanity to man?

C. RENAUD: My brother was a very compassionate person. And, you know, he was studying sociology at Columbia here in New York, and he saw a film by a famous filmmaker, Jon Alpert, and the next day went down to DCTV, where Jon works and begged for an internship.

COOPER: Really? Wow.

C. RENAUD: And within two weeks, he called me and said, you should come to New York. And I followed him here. And we spent the next seven years working as Jon's editors. And then 9/11 happened, and we started going with Jon Alpert to war zones.

COOPER: Wow. And Juan, you and I spoke in 2022. You were in the hospital. You'd come back. You had 13 operations.

JUAN ARREDONDO, JOURNALIST: Correct.

COOPER: And what do you -- what do you remember about working with Brent?

ARREDONDO: Well, first, he was a -- he was very compassionate, but also he was very driven, very focused. And so I remember that somehow we just seemed to click and we would go into the field. We knew exactly what he wanted to get. We sort of divvy up the work, which was also very helpful. But I thank him taking me under his wing and Craig just to take us sort of to learn how to documentaries, that's what I remember the most.

COOPER: How close were you with him on the day he was killed?

ARREDONDO: We were -- basically the entire week we were sharing rooms and were very check in with each other, but most of the time we're just pretty much 24 hours together.

COOPER: I want to play another scene from the documentary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. RENAUD: So, he just kept repeating it, you know, we've been shot, we've been shot, we've been shot. And he, you know -- and I said, where's Brent? And he said, he's been shot, too. I've been pulled away into a separate vehicle. He's still there.

And I said, where was he shot? And I said, did he have his vest on? And he said, yes. And then I said, was he shot in the -- in the vest or the face? And Juan paused.

He didn't answer me. And I knew right there Brent was gone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: What do you hope people take away from this film?

C. RENAUD: I hope that people see Brent's compassion and understand why journalists and filmmakers do this kind of work, but also see, you know, what is happening right now. It's not safe to be a journalist right now. It's always been dangerous to go to war zones, but there is -- there is a target on the back of journalists right now.

COOPER: There was something somebody in Somalia once said to your brother in a hospital where your brother was shooting, I think it was in Mogadishu, I read, and it was lovely. I don't want to misquote him, but do you remember what the guy said?

C. RENAUD: I do.

COOPER: What did he say?

C. RENAUD: I do, yes. You know, the worst car bomb in Somali's history had just gone off, and my brother was in the hospital filming badly wounded patients. And a man who was burned all over his body was watching my brother film, and then called Brent over, asked him his name, and said, the way you hold that camera, you do it from your heart. And he said, you and I, we could change the world if we wanted to.

COOPER: Wow.

C. RENAUD: It was beautiful.

COOPER: That is beautiful. It's such a difficult thing to be in a hospital with wounded people and to do it in a way that is not exploitative and that is not -- so to have somebody who's been burned all over the body watch your brother do that and then say that that's --

C. RENAUD: Yes.

COOPER: -- incredible. He gave a speech, I think, at Harvard, where he talked about being on the autism spectrum, which was something he hadn't talked about before. And I find it so interesting that he -- I think I read an interview in which you said he could have intense focus in a war zone, which you absolutely need to do this kind of work and be calm, at least visibly calm, or suppress everything. But in a party in Brooklyn, he would be full of anxiety, which I completely understand, 100 percent, but I think that it's such an interesting dichotomy.

[21:00:00]

C. RENAUD: Yes. And that was Brent. You know, he was -- he was such a tender person and very, very intense, very quiet. You would not know about the experiences he's been through because he wouldn't talk about it. He would not come home from the front lines and be braggadocious about the things that he had seen.

He just was -- he just was about the work and telling people stories.

COOPER: The film is beautiful that you've made. Thank you so much.

C. RENAUD: Thank you.

ARRENDONDO: Appreciate it.

COOPER: Again, the HBO original documentary short "Armed Only with the Camera" debuts tonight on HBO and HBO Max.

Craig Renaud and Juan Arredondo, thank you so much.

The news continues. "The Source with Kaitlan Collins" starts right now.