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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Shutdown Fallout: Hundreds of Flights Canceled for Tomorrow; Interview with Senator Amy Klobuchar (D-MN); Tucker Carlson Defends Interview with White Nationalist Nick Fuentes; Norman Rockwell's Family Condemns DHS For Using His Art; Tesla Shareholders Approve $1 Trillion Pay Package For Musk; One-On-One With Mentalist Oz Pearlman. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired November 06, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: ...to strengthen ChatGPT's responses in sensitive moments, working closely with mental health clinicians.
Zane Chamberlain's family tell us tells us that Zane was taking medications for depression, that he had withdrawn from family and friends in the months leading up to his death, but that they had no idea he had developed a relationship of this magnitude with ChatGPT -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Thank you, Ed. Gosh, his parents -- his poor parents in agony there, when they saw those massages. Ed Lavandera, thank you and if you or anyone you know needs help, there are humans, please call or text 988 to reach the National Suicide Prevention Line. Thank you so much for joining us. AC360 starts now.
[20:00:50]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360: Flights canceled. Will there be airport chaos? How the government shutdown could leave travelers grounded starting tomorrow and for days to come.
Also, Elon Musk, already the world's richest billionaire, now a big step closer to becoming its first trillionaire. Is he worth it? Tech podcaster, Kara Swisher joins me tonight.
And a mind blowing conversation with mentalist Oz Pearlman. How does he get inside people's heads? I put him to the test.
Good evening, thanks for joining us. If you are traveling anytime soon, brace for possible impact. By this time tomorrow night, you and many others could be grounded or have your flight canceled or delayed thanks to the government shutdown and a shortage of now without pay. They got zero-dollar paychecks today, and some finally have had it. They're calling in sick or even quitting, and the system is buckling under the strain.
In response, starting tomorrow, the administration is reducing the number of flights at 40 busy airports across the country. You see them there, including every single major hub and many, many more. First by four percent, ramping up to 10 percent within days. Now all day, one by one. The nation's biggest airlines have been announcing flight cancellations in anticipation. Hundreds by now, while back in Washington, lawmakers continue to grope their way toward some kind of way out of what is now the longest government shutdown ever, with the holiday travel season fast approaching.
Our aviation correspondent Pete Muntean is in Washington to start us off. How big of a disruption do you think this is going to be? And how did the FAA come to this number of 10 percent?
PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're talking about thousands of canceled flights, Anderson, and the FAA just published this 15-page emergency order. And in it, the Trump administration mandates that airlines slash flights if the government shutdown does not end, and air traffic controllers continue working without pay.
Here is the breakdown: Starting at 6:00 A.M. tomorrow, airlines will have to cut four percent of their flights. Next Tuesday, six percent of lights next Thursday, eight percent of flights, and then next Friday 10 percent of flights.
That, in essence makes changes within two weeks of, one, Thanksgiving would begin and air traffic is expected to be huge. This is coming with really sharp criticism for major airlines, which are huge economic drivers. And they're saying that the Trump administration is essentially holding a gun to their heads, turning the travel pain of millions into political gain here.
And frankly, no airline is really buying the administration's excuse that the U.S. airspace is suddenly unsafe. Here is what it means in real numbers. American Airlines told me that it will cancel about 220 flights each day, starting tomorrow through Monday. Southwest Airlines will cancel about 120 flights tomorrow. Delta airlines will cancel 170 flights starting tomorrow, and United Airlines will cancel around 200 flights tomorrow.
Here is the administration's reasoning for all this. Air traffic controllers just got this zero-dollar pay stub. Their second of this government shutdown. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy says that stress in the National Airspace System has reached a point where it is no longer safe to operate things at full capacity, though even air traffic controllers I've spoken to have expressed some skepticism to me about this.
Where will this be? Well, this is the map of airports everywhere from New York, to Florida, to Albuquerque, to Anchorage. And now airlines are really scrambling to adjust here. They're telling me they're dealing with this like they would deal with mass cancellations during a major snowstorm. The administration says air traffic controllers are in crisis, but airlines say this will create chaos -- Anderson.
COOPER: Pete Muntean, thanks.
I want to go to CNN Sunlen Serfaty on Capitol Hill, where senators were in intense negotiations today to try to end the shutdown. There's a real push for progress today because senate scheduled to be in recess next week. Are we any closer to a deal?
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, things are very fluid up here -- Anderson. There had been some glimmers of hope and some progress over the course of the last 24 to 48 hours. But as of this evening, things have really shifted the other way, now that Senate Democrats are indicating that they essentially cannot get behind this deal that is emerging up here on Capitol Hill, and that if a vote is held tomorrow at this point where the deal is and many of them questioning what exactly is in the deal, they say that they have the votes amongst the Senate Democrats to block the bill from going forward, meaning that the shutdown will continue.
Now, as what we know of the emerging deal is that they potentially would hold vote to reopen the government. They would hold votes, additional votes related to funding, select federal agencies and importantly here, they would also let them have a vote and a stand- alone bill on those expiring enhanced Affordable Care Act subsidies that Democrats have been pushing for. But that's where Senate Democrats tonight, Anderson, are saying this deal does not go far enough. And they certainly do not believe Speaker Mike Johnson will hold a similar vote in the House. He has been very noncommittal. So, they don't want to cross that threshold, agree to this deal.
They feel that potentially they could extract some more commitments from the Senate Republicans. And so, for this moment, they are holding firm, and Senate Democrats are telling CNN tonight, Anderson, that if this comes up to a vote tomorrow, at this point, without any more commitments, that they will block it -- Anderson.
[20:05:58]
COOPER: All right, Sunlen, thanks very much. For more on how the White House is viewing all this, I'm joined by CNN's Kaitlan Collins. What are your sources, the White House saying about the flight reductions? Are they concerned they could backfire politically?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think they're concerned about air traffic, period. Because obviously this is something that is a very tangible part of this government shutdown. In addition to federal workers not being paid, air traffic controllers not getting paid, getting those paychecks and pay stubs that were zero dollars today.
And, Anderson, this is the shutdown that the government thought that the White House thought certainly was going, only going to last a couple of days. I mean, I was at the White House the first week of this shutdown, and they thought Democrats would fold within days.
They certainly didn't imagine it would stretch on this long. And you saw the President yesterday being very blunt that he believes his party is actually bearing more of the blame for this shutdown than Democrats are. That had not been something that The White House was willing to acknowledge before this, but is certainly something, obviously, that the President himself has made clear is how he feels that this is this is shaping out. And what's interesting, Anderson, though, is now were getting to Day 36, Day 37 of this government shutdown now becoming the longest in U.S. history.
The last time President Trump was in office, during the last government shutdown, that was 35 days. They did not take this step yet on air traffic control. We didn't see them reducing flights in the way that they are now ordering airlines to do so here. And so, it's actually taking on a different life than the last shutdown that Donald Trump presided over when he was President.
And so, that's a question of what this looks like going forward and just how bad it gets come next Tuesday, when that second set of cancellations is set to kick in.
COOPER: Yes, and Thanksgiving up ahead, Kaitlan, thanks very much. Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene is going to join Kaitlan on "The Source" at the top of the hour.
Joining me right now, Democratic Senator from Minnesota, Amy Klobuchar. What are you hearing, Senator, from your colleagues, about tomorrow's vote and the chances of reaching a deal?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): Well, I thought it was very interesting, Anderson, that the President actually admitted that Republicans are being held responsible for the shutdown. We've seen it, you saw it in the election vote on Tuesday night in states like Mississippi and Georgia, not just in those major races in Virginia and New Jersey.
And I think what the public wants is they want him to focus on bringing costs down and what we would like to see out of this is the President to come to the table. No budget impasse, no shutdown has ever been resolved without a President being part of the negotiations and we need him there.
He is the master, he says of the art of the deal. It's time for him to come to the table. And besides that, we'd love to pay the air traffic controllers, and we have a bill to pay federal employees. But the House has been on an extended vacation for seven weeks, so they're not even here to do their part and vote for it.
So, it is time for him to call the House back and to come to the negotiating table. I would hope tomorrow, this weekend. Our leaders have asked for that to happen, and clearly it's time for it to happen.
COOPER: St. Paul International Airport is among the 40 airports nationwide, as you know, there's going to be forced to reduce flights by the Trump administration due to the shutdown. How much do you expect the cuts to impact your state?
KLOBUCHAR: Well, I imagine they're going to be impacting every state. But in the end, the President runs the White House, his party runs the Senate and his party runs the House. And it is again, what we are focused on is affordability, not just with his tariffs and groceries, which have gone up outrageously, but also with health care premiums.
Literally one year of these health care premiums that are set to double that, people are starting to see are doubling, is basically the same amount of money as he doled out to Argentina, right? That was $20 billion, this is just a little more than that.
So, the thought that he won't even come to the table to talk about helping people afford their health care. But he's willing to send $20 billion to Argentina or build a beautiful bathroom that he puts pictures up next to the Lincoln Bedroom with marble that most Americans will never even get to see or build a ballroom or go off and jet around the world when he won't even come down to Capitol Hill, to the negotiating table is something that I believe, Tuesday night, the people of this country held him responsible for that.
COOPER: The second longest shutdown, which was in 2019 during Trump's first term, actually ended after air traffic control shortages led to air travel issues. Do you think this could be the something that breaks the logjam?
[20:10:27]
KLOBUCHAR: There are many things going on right now, including the administration's decision to refuse to pay food, nutrition benefits. A court just ordered them again and said that minute by minute they're inflicting harm on Americans, and they're doing everything in their power to anything except coming to the negotiating table. And I don't know how much clearer we need to make this.
None of this can happen until he calls the House back, until we get a negotiation going and everyone wants flights to go on time. Everyone wants our government to function. But he has been firing people, he's been terminating people. People have been taking early retirements all across the government, causing problems with Social Security, V.A. and the people are tired of the chaos, they're tired of the corruption and mostly they're tired of the costs.
COOPER: Senator Klobuchar, thank you.
KLOBUCHAR: Great to be on, Anderson.
COOPER: Up next, the fight among conservatives over podcaster Nick Fuentes. Why on earth are some of them embracing a guy who says this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK FUENTES, PODCAST HOST: Jews are running society, women need to shut the f**k up. Blacks need to be imprisoned for the most part and we would live in paradise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And later, how the Department of Homeland Security is using Norman Rockwell's images of an idyllic and whitewashed past to recruit masked enforcers to target immigrants. That, and what Rockwell's granddaughter is saying about it now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:16:16]
COOPER: A bitter rift has opened up among conservative Republicans after Tucker Carlson invited well-known White nationalist, Nick Fuentes onto his podcast last week. Fuentes is a fringe figure who pushes racist, sexist, anti-gay, antisemitic tropes. Their conversation was critical of Israel and its strong support by American neoconservatives. Here's part of what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FUENTES: As far as the Jews are concerned, I think that, like I said, you cannot actually divorce Israel and the neocons and all of those things that you talk about from Jewishness.
If you are a Jewish person in America, you're sort of, and again, it's not because they're born, but it's sort of a rational self-interest politically to say, I'm a minority, I'm a religious ethnic minority. This is not really my home, my ancestral home is in Israel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Many leading conservatives criticized Tucker Carlson for giving Fuentes a platform to air his kind of rhetoric. But the President of the Heritage Foundation, perhaps the best known, most powerful conservative think tank, defended Carlson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN ROBERTS, HERITAGE FOUNDATION PRESIDENT: The Heritage Foundation didn't become the intellectual backbone of the conservative movement, by canceling our own people or policing the consciences of Christians, and we won't start doing that now.
We will always defend truth. We will always defend America, and we will always defend our friends against the slander of bad actors who serve someone else's agenda. That includes Tucker Carlson, who remains and as I have said before, always will be a close friend of the Heritage Foundation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, that created backlash within the organization with its chief-of-staff resigning and one senior staff member saying most of Kevin Roberts' colleagues are disgusted and that he's lost control of Heritage. Apparently he got the message yesterday telling a staff meeting that he made a mistake and that he's sorry.
Here's more of why Nick Fuentes is such an outlier among conservatives.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FUENTES: Jews are running society. Women need to shut f**k up. Blacks need to be imprisoned for the most part, and we would live in paradise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Lots to talk about, former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger and Xochitl Hinojosa, former communications director for the Democratic National Committee. Congressman what -- I don't understand why it's a difficult question at all. Shouldn't, I think all Republicans would condemn Nick Fuentes' hateful comments, full stop.
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, you'd think, but remember, Donald Trump invited him to Mar-a-Lago to have lunch with him and Kanye.
Yes, this is crazy. I mean, look, there's always been, you know, we'd have Lincoln Day Dinners, right? This is like the big fundraisers for the GOP and there'd always be a weird table. And the weird table would always have one or two people that were kind of like Nazi-ish, I guess. And that firewall, for the most part, in the GOP held where it's like, yes, they may be considered to the right, but they're not part of us.
It feels like that firewall is crumbling and you hear sometimes people on the right say, we have no enemies to the right and what they're saying is anybody that is on the right, even as far as Nazism, we have no enemies, we have to make common cause. The ultimate enemy is the left and the liberals.
And so, the fact that it has taken Kevin, that Heritage Foundation president or chairman, whatever, as long as it has to condemn that is enough to say like that firewall is crumbling.
Now, kudos to the Republicans and I'll give Ted Cruz something here for speaking out as quickly as they did on this, some of them. But this has to be burned right out of the party and unfortunately, it's taking too long to do that.
COOPER: Xochitl, Megan Kelly asked Tucker Carlson what he would say to those who question why he didn't press Fuentes on his more inflammatory statements. I want to play some of his response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, "THE TUCKER CARLSON SHOW": You know, do your own interview the way that you want to do it. You're not my editor. Buzz off. I mean, I don't know.
You want to go yell at Nick Fuentes, I'll give you his cell. Call him and go sit and yell at him and feel virtuous or whatever.
I don't need to prove that I'm a good person to you. You may think I'm a terrible person, okay? I'm just doing my thing. Which is, I want to understand what people think and I'm committed to that and if you don't like it, don't watch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:20:31] COOPER: Nick Fuentes has been banned from YouTube or some other social platforms. Do you think he would have the audience that he does without someone like Tucker Carlson? Tucker Carlson certainly amplifies his audience.
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, he's certainly lifting him up. He's giving him a platform. He is allowing his fringe views to be seen by a larger audience. And I think that's the problematic piece is and I think Adam is right, I think the fact that there is like the more moderate Republican party there is then we had the MAGA Republican Party, and now we have the fringe right.
And I think what is interesting at a time when the Republican Party is actually not winning elections, it is Democrats that are winning elections, they now have the fringe right, that they're going to have to deal with. And that is not where the country is going.
And so, I think ahead of the midterm elections and kind of what we're seeing with the Republican Party, it will be interesting to see whether in Republican primaries and moving forward and even in 2020, as J.D. Vance may potentially face some opposition from the fringe right, whether or not they feel like they need to actually please that far-right movement and cater to them. And it seems like that's what the Heritage Foundation was doing and they got blowback.
So, it'll be interesting to see where the Republican Party goes as you see that divide.
COOPER: Congressman, Fuentes is, you know, he's increasingly popular in the online, right. He says he didn't vote for the President in the last election because he wasn't extreme enough and is critical of J.D. Vance. I've heard you call this sort of a civil war of sorts.
KINZINGER: It is and by the way, I want to warn people out there and if you're a parent of a young teen guy and make sure that they're not listening to Fuentes because he has some serious, I think we underestimate the kind of reach he has had among young men in radicalization. But yes, you're starting to see this civil war bubble up within the GOP.
So, people ask me all the time, what happens when Donald Trump is no longer in the picture. You know, who's the heir apparent to MAGA? And the answer is nobody knows. Because I think what you're starting to see is an understanding that Donald Trump really isn't going to run again. He can't, he's admitting it. And so, you're seeing these competing factions now kind of rising up and fighting for this.
And this is a decision that Republicans kind of, by and large, are going to have to make. Are you going to return to be the party of kind of Reagan-esque, which I don't think they will? Are you going to allow these Nick Fuentes types to come in? I hope they don't allow that, but that is a decision they have to make and you will see, once Donald Trump is out of office, you will see this in full, in full throttle. I mean, just mark my words.
COOPER: I mean, congressman brought this up. Fuentes dined at Mar-a- Lago back in 2022. Republicans across the board were quick to condemn the meeting. Now seems like there's room for sort of debate over Fuentes.
HINOJOSA: Yes, the fact that there is even this debate happening about whether or not he should be allowed on some of these shows, whether he should be given a platform, the heritage foundation, coming out and defending him, or, I guess, the head of the heritage foundation.
I mean, that just shows you that there is a need and people believe, like they need to defend him. And that in itself, I think is just problematic for the right and its problematic for Trump, it's problematic for J.D. Vance, and its problematic for anyone who wants to win back a moderate electorate in the next few years.
COOPER: Well, Xochitl Hinojosa, Adam Kinzinger, thank you.
Coming up next, Norman Rockwell's granddaughter on this administration, using the idyllic vision of America that Rockwell painted to recruit masked enforcers for the Department of Homeland Security.
And something to make you smile at the end of the broadcast, mentalist, Oz Pearlman, who seems to do the impossible.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OZ PEARLMAN, MENTALIST: Close your eyes. Don't peek, close your eyes. I just want to show the viewer at home. Keep your eyes closed for me, Anderson. Open your eyes, that's why you did this. You purse your lips, you put them together. What's the first letter of this person's name? The first letter.
COOPER: M.
PEARLMAN: M, M.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:29:07]
COOPER: Keeping them honest tonight, the current administration is hardly the first to try to cloak itself in popular culture. It may however, be the first to cloak itself in the popular culture of 80 some years ago, and you'll see a whitewashed version of it to boot.
This is a painting by Norman Rockwell titled "A Scout Is Loyal". It ran in the official boy scout calendar in 1942, and it went up yesterday in the Department of Homeland Security's Facebook feed.
It was put up after a "USA Today" op-ed this weekend by Norman Rockwell's descendants headlined, "We're Norman Rockwell's Family. Trump's DHS has shamefully misused his work."
Now, you'll hear in a moment from Norman Rockwell's granddaughter, Daisy Rockwell. And if nothing else, today's posting seems to be the department's way of saying that it's not going to stop.
Here's one on Instagram with the DHS caption Protect our American Way of Life. Another shows a Rockwell painting of a writer conjuring up stories of Daniel Boone with DHS adding manifest heroism. Yet another adds DHS lettering over Rockwell's painting of maintenance on the Statue of Liberty. It reads protect your homeland, defend your culture.
And it's not hard to see the kind of homogeneous culture and homeland that DHS seems to be dreaming of. Many of the paintings that Norman Rockwell made, including some of the ones you saw, ran in the Saturday Evening Post, which by and large did not want images of Black people shown.
Rockwell himself spoke on the subject in 1962. He said, I was born a White Protestant with some prejudices that I'm continuously trying to eradicate. I'm angry at unjust prejudices and other people and in myself.
[20:30:38]
And there's evidence as well, in that Statue of Liberty painting that Rockwell worked on. He worked to undermine bigotry where he could, by sneaking a black worker into it, something that went undiscovered by the Saturday Evening Post or anyone else until 2011.
The painting, by the way, has hung for many years in the Oval Office and elsewhere in the White House. President Biden even referred to it in his farewell address.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Upstairs in the residence of the White House, I've walked by a painting of the Statue of Liberty. I don't know how many times. In the painting, there's several workers climbing on the outstretched arm of the statue that holds the torch. It reminds me every day I pass it of the story and soul of our nation and the power of the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Rockwell would go on to confront race head on with this painting in 1964, inspired by Ruby Bridges, who had been escorted by federal marshals to desegregate her New Orleans school. He titled it, "The Problem We All Live With." And this one in 1967 called, "New Kids in the Neighborhood Negro in the Suburbs."
DHS has not posted either one of these, perhaps because neither fits the kind of country the White House seems to be recruiting people for. These are white Afrikaners arriving in Washington back in May.
Just days ago, the administration lowered the ceiling for refugee admissions from 125,000 people last year to just 7,500 this year, reserving, by the way, most of those 7,500 slots for white South Africans. All while the men and women being recruited by DHS for those images of a bygone whitewash. America are doing things like this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no, we cannot (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, man. Come on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my god.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: This was caught on camera late September at an immigration court in New York. An ICE officer who was later relieved of duty, grabbing a detained man's wife. Then, as her son and daughter watch, slam her against the wall and throw her to the floor.
Not the stuff of Norman Rockwell painting, and certainly not an isolated incident.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get the (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hold on. Hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is my people?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: You may have seen the thing being thrown there. That's top Border Patrol Official Gregory Bovino tossing a tear gas grenade, a canister in Chicago, tear gas canister in Chicago. Today, a federal judge found his account of the incident to be not credible, saying that he was not, as he claimed, hit in the head with a rock shortly before.
The judge going so far as to say, quote, "Defendant Bovino admitted that he lied." Norman Rockwell's Boy Scout painting is titled, "A Scout is Loyal." It's a line from the Scout law, which all scouts memorize and recite. The first line is a scout is trustworthy, and some others are helpful, friendly, courteous and kind.
Perspective from Norman Rockwell's granddaughter, Daisy Rockwell.
Daisy, thanks so much for joining me. I just want to read part of your op-ed. You said if Norman Rockwell were alive today, he would be devastated to see that. Not only does the problem Ruby Bridges confronted 65 years ago still plague us as a society, but that his own work has been marshaled for the cause of persecution toward immigrant communities and people of color.
Can you just speak more to that?
DAISY ROCKWELL, NORMAL ROCKWELL'S GRANDDAUGHTER: I think to our family, the work that the Department of Homeland Security is doing right now, which is persecuting immigrant communities, is this actually a segregationist movement. So it's really directly opposed to the things that he believes.
This one with the new family moving. And this is also a desegregation painting. And it looks, you know, sort of very simple, homey, suburban scene. But it's about a black family moving into a white neighborhood and the kids all expressing a friendly interest in one another. So these are paintings that really show his commitment to desegregation, especially.
COOPER: Has anyone in the administration reached out to anyone in your family?
ROCKWELL: No, they haven't.
COOPER: DHS posted yesterday your grandfather's painting titled, "Scout is Loyal" with a from him that reads, "Those were the days when America believed in itself. I was happy and proud to be painting it."
[20:35:05]
The idea that this was posted after your op-ed was published, I'm wondering what your reaction to that was.
ROCKWELL: It seemed like, you know, incredibly immature trolling, rather than addressing the fact that we are accusing them of not only misusing his work, but doing so in violation of copyright law. And their way to react is like, I don't know, it just feels like there's a bunch of 11 year old boys running this social media feed instead of grownups who can can engage in a conversation about these two problems that we've put forth.
COOPER: Well, Daisy, it's so -- I'm so glad you're speaking out because I do think so few people know this aspect of your grandfather, of his work and of his paintings on segregation and desegregation. So I really appreciate you talking to us tonight.
Thank you.
ROCKWELL: Thank you. Thank you for having me on.
COOPER: Coming up next, Kara Swisher on the deal that could make Elon Musk the world's first trillionaire. And later, you'll see mentalist mentalist Oze Perlman completely blowing my mind.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: You get the (INAUDIBLE). How is that possible? How is that friggin possible?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:41:07]
COOPER: Let this sink in, Elon Musk could become the world's first trillionaire. Today, Tesla shareholders approved a pay package that could over the next 10 years give Musk hundreds of millions of additional company shares it could eventually be worth $1 trillion. But Tesla shares would have to soar 466 percent from today's value.
Let's talk about it with Kara Swisher, co-host of the Pivot podcast. So Kara, what's your response to the approval of this? Is he worth it?
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Oh, well, we'll see. We'll see. It's got a lot of tranches. He's got to, you know, jump a lot of fences to get the different types of money that he's getting. And it's in 12 pieces, actually, which is somewhat interesting.
So he's not a trillionaire yet. He's got to make Tesla worth much more than it is, right, you know --
COOPER: An extraordinary amount more than it is like --
SWISHER: Yes.
COOPER: -- 400 something --
SWISHER: Yes.
COOPER: -- times more --
SWISHER: Yes.
COOPER: -- I mean, which is --
SWISHER: Yes.
COOPER: -- obviously which would be beneficial for shareholders if it became --
SWISHER: Yes.
COOPER: -- that big.
SWISHER: Yes.
COOPER: So does that justify --
SWISHER: Yes, sure.
COOPER: -- this potential upside for him?
SWISHER: Well, I mean, they were going to give him a huge amount of money no matter what, because he threatened to walk. That's his favorite thing to do in this case. But, you know, in this case, it's linked to performance.
And so if he gets to certain levels, and again, the first one, he's got to get Tesla up to $2 trillion. And then he's got to get it up to evaluation. But they also have performance things attached, they have to have one of four or five things, a certain amount of EBITDA, a certain amount of robots sold, cars sold, all different things. And so he's got to do that. So it's linked to actual performance, not just the fact that Tesla is right now a meme stock by any -- it is a meme stock at this point, because its results do not match its performance in terms of sales.
COOPER: Well, you're saying it's a meme stock, but I mean, doesn't it have the -- I mean, if people below -- believe in a robot future and a autonomous vehicle future, that seems to be where the big hope is for Tesla.
SWISHER: The big hope is they have to sell those robots and sell those cars. Right now, they are not selling cars. Cars are declining rather precipitously, especially across the world. And so, no, their results are-- this is a ridiculous meme stock right now.
It's 300 sometimes earnings. It may go up just on this announcement. In fact, a lot of people are buying these call options are called at higher prices because they think the stock is going to go up. But by no means is there any results here that would justify these valuations.
It can still go up even if there's no results underneath it. But he has to meet certain performance parameters for sure. Actually sell cars, actually sell robots, improve even things like that.
COOPER: There -- you know, there's a CEO of this company. If he had left, would the stock have likely cratered? Would --
SWISHER: Yes. Yes.
COOPER: And would the company itself, though, be able to continue? I mean, would it actually, you know, can it function without Elon Musk?
SWISHER: Yes, of course, it can. It just -- is the stock is so ridiculously overpriced. And it just keeps going up because it's a meme stock. If he had left, it would have gone down to what it's actually worth, which is the sales. I mean, it's not worth what it's worth right now. But it is because people are buying it.
It's kind of ridiculous. But he is keeping the stock afloat. And in this case, he's got to get it up to numbers that are really difficult. And he can't just do it on meme stock or the idea that Elon's a genius. It's got it -- he's got to actually sell things.
And right now they're not selling enough things. And the recent results were the same way. And it's been a several year trend of declining sales.
COOPER: One of the arguments he was making was that this was really about control and influence. He said on the call, he said there needs to be enough voting control to give to give him a ton of influence --
SWISHER: Yes.
COOPER: -- but not so much. He said that I can't be fired if I go insane. [20:45:03]
SWISHER: He can't be fired even if he goes insane. I mean, this board has been such a pushover for Elon Musk. He essentially controls this company. Nobody on this board, which is benefiting a lot personally in terms of stock and grants they get. They're completely in his thrall, for one.
But I think he wants the technical control the way. He probably envies Mark Zuckerberg or others that have total control of their companies. And so that's what he wants. And you can see it on some level. And in this case, you know, everybody's crying it. But he's got to make these numbers in order to get to get paid.
And so we'll see if he can do that. And by the way, if he can do that, then he's improved the company and therefore deserves it, correct? I mean, one would assume.
COOPER: But, I mean, the stockholders then do benefit.
SWISHER: Yes, they will. But without him, it would be valued at what it's actually worth. And by the way, it's actually worth that now. It's just because of his presence that the stock is incredibly overvalued.
COOPER: Kara Swisher, thank you.
SWISHER: Thank you.
COOPER: Have you ever wished you could read people better? Well, mentalist Oz Pearlman can. And although he's often accused of being a mind reader, he claims that's not how it works. He's the author of the new book, "Read Your Mind: Proven Habits for Success from the World's Greatest Mentalist." We spoke just before airtime.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So you don't -- you're not a magician, you're a mentalist. What is the difference?
OZ PEARLMAN, MENTALIST: What is the difference? So a magician, you can kind of visualize card tricks, sleight of hand, right? I fool your eyes by showing you where to look, right? Misdirection.
Mentalism is where there's really no props. There are no cards. I just tell you, think of a card. And I watch you and I observe and it looks like mind reading, but it is not supernatural. I don't have any psychic powers. I'm not talking to the dead. It's a learnable skill.
COOPER: And you've written this book.
PEARLMAN: Yes.
COOPER: What's the purpose of the book? Is it --
PEARLMAN: So the book will not teach you to be a mentalist. Spoiler alert, anyone who buys it and goes, how did you throw -- know which ball the Joe Burrow would throw to? I'm not going to teach you that. I'm sorry. There's other books.
I want to teach you the skills from what I do that are transferable, that give you an advantage in your life. Because being able to read the room effectively, and know what people are thinking about you, and hopefully influence them, building rapport --
COOPER: Whether you're in the boardroom, classroom, wherever it may be.
PEARLMAN: Anywhere. Think about it. In your relationship with your kids, with your spouse, with somebody you have --
COOPER: You have five kids, is that right?
PEARLMAN: Five kids.
COOPER: So do you use --
PEARLMAN: I'm using a little mentalism on them --
COOPER: Yes.
PEARLMAN: -- but they know how it works. Now, you know, my nine-year- old is like, I'm on to you, Dad. But yes, there's a little bit of Jedi mind control tactics that I'm sure every parent uses. But what's funny is, in the book, where I give you little elements of know how to detect deception and is someone telling you the truth.
Is this person really interested in what you're selling? And make no mistake, selling doesn't mean if you're a salesperson, you right now are selling your viewer on maintaining their eyeballs, right? We're all selling in life.
I'm selling my kids on eating their vegetables every night at dinner. So when I say selling, it's knowing the fact that how you interact with somebody, how you get them to trust you, develop deeper bonds, rapport, how to walk into a room and leave it being the most memorable person someone met that day is a huge skill in life. And it's what's allowed me to achieve success. It's not the tricks.
COOPER: All right. So what are we going to do?
PEARLMAN: What are we going to do? Well, you know, let's do this. Anderson Cooper 360. I came prepared. I stayed very much on trend.
COOPER: OK.
PEARLMAN: 360.
COOPER: I'm going to hold this.
PEARLMAN: Look at this. Look at this. You spinning around in your hands and look at various places you have traveled to, which is probably most of the globe at this point. You have really done a number on this.
You've been to how many countries if you had to guesstimate? Give me a ballpark.
COOPER: Like been to worked and --
PEARLMAN: All the above.
COOPER: -- 80 to 90.
PEARLMAN: 80 to 90. So most of this globe. Imagine that as you're looking at this globe and you're looking at different places, bam. I like to jar you out of autopilot. Something unexpected.
Your phone, which is here, imagine that you left the ringer on. You're mortified. You grab it. You're about to sound it. You turn it around. You look and you are looking at the number and the person and it just hits you where you -- I am not expecting a call from this person. I have not thought or spoken to this person in months.
Close your eyes. I'm putting you in the spot and I want you to visualize as this scenario plays out this person's face. Can you picture their face right now?
COOPER: Yes.
PEARLMAN: Open your eyes. When was the last time you'd even thought of this person?
COOPER: Six months, eight months.
PEARLMAN: Is there any conceivable way I could know who would have popped in your head?
COOPER: No.
PEARLMAN: No way, right?
COOPER: There's no way.
PEARLMAN: Think of the number of letters in this person's first name and try to count it, but try not to show me anything. Just doing your head.
Now notice the struggle in Anderson's eyes. He's either acting very well or it's a longer name. Don't say it. Just look at me when you feel ready.
COOPER: In the full name?
PEARLMAN: First name. First name is good.
COOPER: OK.
PEARLMAN: Look at me on.
COOPER: Hold on.
PEARLMAN: No, don't use your fingers. I can see your fingers, Anderson.
COOPER: Well, I'm not. OK.
[20:50:04]
PEARLMAN: Open your eyes. See, I was debating that first name. I watched you and you went like this. You counted twice, so I think you miscounted the first time and you're like, I counted by one too much. You went back down. Six letters, isn't it?
COOPER: It is six letters.
PEARLMAN: It is six letters. And mix up all the letters and just you stop and you grab a letter out. Like, let's say you just swoop and you grab the first letter and just focus on that one first letter. Can you do that for me?
COOPER: Yes.
PEARLMAN: It just got cold out. Your lips were a little chap. Close your eyes. Don't peak. Close your eyes.
I just want to show the viewer at home. Keep your eyes closed for me, Anderson. Open your eyes. That's why you did this. You push your lips. You put them together.
What's the first letter of this person's name?
COOPER: The --
PEARLMAN: First letter.
COOPER: M.
PEARLMAN: M, M.
And then keep going. Keep going. It's sound -- it's not Michael. This is definitely a guy. Tell me who pop in your head. You imagine this person calling. You haven't thought of them in months. What's his name?
COOPER: Full name?
PEARLMAN: Full first name.
COOPER: Milton.
PEARLMAN: Milton.
COOPER: Wow. How is that -- that's bananas.
PEARLMAN: And you know what?
COOPER: That's bananas.
PEARLMAN: When you were looking at the globe, it's called the power of suggestion. You asked me how I did it. You didn't need a globe in your hands.
But as you were looking and telling me I've been to so many countries, I noticed at a certain point when you thought about Milton, you look down at the globe, not at a place, you were looking for a place. Which tells me that I led the witness.
You know what I said to you? I said to you -- what did I say? I said, you've been to all these places. You've had an impact on all these places, and people had an impact on you.
Is there a place that you thought of when you thought of Milton and you looked for it where you met him or you know him from? Does that make sense?
COOPER: Yes.
PEARLMAN: That's why you looked at the globe. Hold it in front of you right here. Pacific Ocean. You can't see anything. Is there any way in the world you've ever discussed where you met Milton before this moment, anywhere appeared that anybody could possibly know this?
COOPER: I mean, unlikely.
PEARLMAN: Unlikely, right? Definitely not me. Was it a city? You seem like a specific type of guy. We think of a specific city?
COOPER: A place specific -- yes.
PEARLMAN: A city in a country.
COOPER: Yes. It's --
PEARLMAN: You know what? Tell us --
COOPER: Not a big place.
PEARLMAN: Doesn't matter.
COOPER: Very remote.
PEARLMAN: What's the city? What's the country? Tell us. Where did Milton pop in your mind? And you thought of tell us, please. Where is it?
COOPER: Maradi Niger.
PEARLMAN: Maradi, Niger.
COOPER: Yes.
PEARLMAN: You know, you shine a light on different places and current events. Look down because I want you to see what I'm shining -- COOPER: I mean, give me a break. Can --
PEARLMAN: Turn it around. If we could turn that around.
COOPER: How -- do you even know where Maradi Niger is. I mean, how is this?
PEARLMAN: Of course, I'm in your head. I knew before you even said it.
COOPER: What? That's crazy.
PEARLMAN: Tell them there is no way we could have known this. This is not --
COOPER: There's no way you could have known this.
PEARLMAN: -- of anyone.
COOPER: There's no way you could have known this. That is really crazy. That's -- I'm a little freaked.
PEARLMAN: A little freaked out.
COOPER: Yes.
PEARLMAN: You know, and on a high note and on a high note, knock this out. Imagine right now, I would like to say this. I disappear. You've interviewed hundreds of people, maybe even thousands.
The number one person if you could have right now in front of me, instead of me, somebody famous or heard of dead or alive. Can you visualize who the number one person you'd want to interview that -- right now, can you see them in your mind?
COOPER: Famous.
PEARLMAN: Famous?
COOPER: Yes.
PEARLMAN: So here's the thing. Number one person I bet you've mentioned before. ChatGPT would know it. So right now you fool yourself. You didn't even know. Boom, you jump, you change your mind.
Number two person. So you immediately shift gears so you couldn't have known. Bam, can you picture that person?
COOPER: Sure.
PEARLMAN: Look at me. Imagine you're looking at them eye to eye. I know you've met this person before. I see familiarity in your eyes.
Imagine we shake hands and I'm that person. And right now -- Barack Obama's who you just thought of.
COOPER: You get the (INAUDIBLE). How is that possible? How is that friggin possible?
The book is, "Read Your Mind." Oz Pearlman, thank you.
PEARLMAN: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The last one, I don't get it.
Still ahead, we are just minutes away from a new episode of my new online streaming show called All There Is Live. We'll have details on that in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:59:03]
COOPER: In just about 15 minutes, 9:15 p.m., I hope you join me online for only the second episode of my new streaming show. It's called All There Is Live. It's a companion to my podcast streaming live at CNN.com/AllThereIs. It's every Thursday night.
I interview podcast listeners and others about their grief and interact with viewers online during the show. There's a clip from last week's show. When I talk with the podcast listeners become a friend, Mary Lahikainen. She's cared for her son Ian, who fought a hard battle with glioblastoma and died in her arms.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY LAHIKAINEN, WHO LOST HER SON IAN: Something that morning, the last morning of hospice, I needed to hold him and I got in behind him and had him against my chest. And I told him, I said, it's OK, Ian. I've got you. I love you.
I could feel his heart beating. And then it stopped. And just to have been able to hold him at that moment. How lucky am I to have been holding Ian? How lucky am I?
COOPER: And to have had him?
LAHIKAINEN: What a gift.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Join me in 15 minutes, CNN.com/AllThereIs for the latest episode of All There Is Live.
The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now. I'll see you tomorrow.
