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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Trump Calls Democrats' Video "Seditious Behavior, Punishable by Death"; Interview with Rep. Chris Deluzio (D-PA); GOP Sen. Hawley Calls on Trump Administration to "Swiftly" Release Epstein Files. DOJ Investigating Trump Officials Leading Schiff Mortgage Probe; CDC Website Now Includes False Claims About Autism & Vaccines; PA Voters Sour On Trump Economy: "It's Only Gotten Worse"; Trump And Mamdani To Meet Face-To-Face Tomorrow At The White House After Months Of Trading Barbs; Comedian Tig Notaro On Grief & Healing. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired November 20, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Of course, to feel emotional just to see his father's face. Ahmadi had been sentenced to 16 years in prison in 2022, in Saudi Arabia for about a dozen mild tweets he posted online criticizing things like tax policy, one mentioned Khashoggi.
He learned that he could leave as President Trump was hosting the Saudi Crown Prince at the White House. Now, Ibrahim has been on this program multiple times to plea for his father's release and he says his father will be coming to the White House next week to meet President Trump.
Thanks for joining us. AC360 starts now.
[20:00:35]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, the President calls Democratic lawmakers traitors, says their reminder that troops must disobey unlawful orders is seditious and says the penalty for that is death. We'll talk to one of the lawmakers who threatened a Navy veteran.
Also tonight, with the 30-day clock ticking for releasing the Epstein files, there's already new fallout from one former Epstein associate, and new questions about how much disclosure to expect. Kara Swisher joins us for that.
And the two administration officials leading the legal campaign against the President's enemies, tonight, we know that one of their investigations is itself under federal investigation.
Good evening, thanks for joining us. We begin tonight in a world where this is not an outlandish question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Just to be clear, does the President want to execute members of Congress?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And that actually happened today in the White House briefing room. And what makes it neither nor even out of line is that this also happened. A social media post from the President which reads seditious behavior punishable by death. Now, the President is talking about a video put out Tuesday by six Democratic lawmakers, all of them are veterans of the military intelligence communities.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHRIS DELUZIO (D-PA):: Threats to our constitution aren't just coming from abroad.
REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): but from right here at home.
SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): Our laws are clear, you can refuse illegal orders.
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN (D-MI): You can refuse illegal orders.
DELUZIO: You must refuse illegal orders.
SLOTKIN: No one has to carry out orders that violate the law --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or our constitution.
CROW: We know this is hard.
KELLY: And that it's a difficult time to be a public servant.
SLOTKIN: But whether you're serving in the CIA.
CROW: The Army.
DELUZIO: Or Navy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Air force.
KELLY: Your vigilance is critical.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, this morning the President reacted, posting this at 9:08 A.M. it's called seditious behavior, the highest level. Each one of these traitors to our country should be arrested and put on trial. Their words cannot be allowed to stand, we won't have a country anymore, an example must be set.
Then a few minutes later, 9:17. This is really bad and dangerous to our country. Their words cannot be allowed to stand seditious behavior from traitors. Lock them up. By 10:20, and here's that post again. He was calling it, "seditious behavior" punishable by death.
So, with that on the table, here's the question again to the President's press secretary and her answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Just to be clear, does the President want to execute members of Congress?
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: No, let's be clear about what the President is responding to, because many in this room want to talk about the President's response, but not what brought the President to responding in this way.
You have sitting members of the United States Congress who conspired together to orchestrate a video message to members of the United States military to active duty service members, to members of the National Security apparatus, encouraging them to defy the President's lawful orders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, keeping them honest, that's precisely what those six lawmakers did not do.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Our laws are clear, you can refuse illegal orders.
SLOTKIN: You can refuse illegal orders.
DELUZIO: You must refuse illegal orders.
SLOTKIN: No one has to carry out orders that violate the law --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or our constitution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now, under military law, servicemembers must obey lawful orders and disobey unlawful ones. You can disagree with that dual mandate and worry about the legal, moral, and practical implications it raises. You can question the motivation of making the video, putting it out there, but the question of the legality of actions taken by this administration, it's not coming out of nowhere to question that.
Lawyers inside the Pentagon have already raised questions about the legality of blowing up boats off Venezuela. And for months now, federal judges have been hearing arguments for and against troop deployments in American cities, meaning this question of obeying orders or not is not academic at this point. It's a daily reality for tens of thousands of men and women in uniform, all of whom take their oaths and training seriously.
And to whatever extent it weighs on them, rightly or wrongly, that burden was put there by the commander-in-chief who his press secretary now says was not seriously calling for anyone's death for considering such issues -- not really.
That again, at the same time, that same press conference, she does suggest he was being perfectly serious when he said this to a reporter trying to ask him about the Epstein files.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Sir, if there's nothing incriminating in the files, sir, why not --
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Quiet, quiet, piggy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The President recently and his press secretary today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: Look, the President is very frank and honest with everyone in this room. You've all seen it yourself. You've all experienced it yourselves. So, I think everyone in this room should appreciate the frankness and the openness that you get from President Trump on a near-daily basis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: He calls it like he sees it. So, the President is very frank and honest when it comes to insulting a female reporter doing her job. Yet when he calls lawmakers traitors and says the punishment is death, having already openly demanded the prosecution of many others and demonized many more and holding both levers of power and the bully pulpit, he is apparently not to be taken seriously.
[20:05:41]
Starting off tonight with chief White House correspondent and anchor of "The Source", Kaitlan Collins, she was in the briefing room, confronted the press secretary about her claim that these six Democratic lawmakers were advocating troops disobey lawful orders. Here's how that went.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: You misquoted Democrats in that video. That's actually not what they said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So, Kaitlan, where does this go from here? I mean, is the President going to push for those lawmakers to be prosecuted?
COLLINS: I mean, the Justice Department, when they were asked about this last night, the deputy attorney general, Todd Blanch, criticized that video, Anderson, before the President accused them of sedition and noted that it was punishable by death.
Todd Blanche criticized that video last night in an interview and said that that they would be looking into it. Now, what they are going to be looking into is not exactly clear, because if you actually watch the video and listen to what the lawmakers are saying, maybe the White House doesn't agree with it or they think it wasn't necessary or in poor taste. Obviously, they can have those opinions, but obviously they've gone much further than that.
And when you listen to the video, what they are telling members of the nation's military and intelligence community is that they must follow lawful orders. That's not exactly a revolutionary idea. It is in the uniform's code that these military service members have to actually follow, saying that they will only follow legal orders there.
And so, the notion that this has caused so much backlash inside the White House has really led solely up to the President himself. And he caught a lot of White House officials off guard this morning with those posts. And obviously, this briefing today was already prescheduled. So, it was something that they were going to have to come out and defend as they did today and sought to interpret and justify those comments by the President, by making it sound like these members of these Democrats who are in this video, Anderson, were telling members of the nation's military that they didn't need to obey the President's orders, period.
That's not what they're saying. They go out of their way very clearly, Anderson, multiple times, to say it is lawful orders that they are talking about. And so that is why I was trying to get a question in there at the at the end of the briefing. I didn't ultimately succeed, obviously, which is because what the actual quote of what the Democrats said is different than how the White House was framing it today inside that press briefing room.
COOPER: Yes, they didn't want to answer. Kaitlan Collins, thank you, appreciate it. See you at the top of the hour for "The Source".
Joining me now, one of the Democrats who made that video, Pennsylvania Congressman Chris Deluzio. He served in the U.S. Navy as a surface warfare officer, is a veteran of the Iraq war. He also sits on the House Armed Services Committee. Congressman, thanks for being with us. I'm wondering what your reaction is the President's warning. You know, of cavalcade of tweets?
DELUZIO: Well, it's a dark day for the country. I mean, the President called for our death and arrest. And what you didn't share in your introduction here is he also shared a post calling for us all to be hanged. That is, the President of the United States in 2025, excuse me, calling for the death and assassination of political rivals, saying a fundamental truth about our Constitution.
That the oath we all take that I took as a 17-year-old for the first time at the Naval Academy that my sailors understood that our troops understand is that your loyalty is to the Constitution, that you have an obligation to follow lawful orders, and that no service member, no matter their rank, can ever be forced to follow illegal ones. That is a bedrock principle and is a dark and dangerous day.
And I will tell you, Anderson, every elected official, no matter their party, should be condemning and condemning clearly what the President has called for here. Violence against me and others. I haven't heard much from my Republican counterparts who were quick to criticize and demand that Democrats condemn political violence. When Charlie Kirk was killed, as I condemned it, when Donald Trump was targeted for assassination in Pennsylvania, as I condemned it, and others.
That's what moral clarity and leadership requires. You condemn political violence, no exceptions.
COOPER: I should point out the hanging thing was a re-tweet, which the President obviously selected and re-tweeted, but just for complete accuracy, do you expect to be investigated by the Department of Justice? I mean, we have obviously seen this Department of Justice respond very quickly to missives from the President or public postings from the President to Pam. You know, this should be looked into.
DELUZIO: The fact that you even have to ask that question should put fear in the hearts of patriotic Americans, that a President who has a response to being reminded of the constitution threatens death and assassination, and then calls for criminal investigations against elected members of Congress who once again restated the basic principle of our constitution that should terrify patriotic Americans, no matter your politics. This is a time to demand that this end, that we reject this kind of lawlessness and that we stand up for the rule of law in this country.
COOPER: When you were serving, did you have -- I mean, did you ever imagine, you obviously knew what the, you know, the what your oath of -- you know, what the oath you took was. Did you ever imagine it would sort of be a question that you wanted to remind people of, Americans of?
[20:10:35]
DELUZIO: If you, Anderson, to be frank, the idea that the sitting President of the United States would call for my death because I talked about the basic oath we take, in uniform or in Congress or anywhere else. No, of course, that would never occur to me.
And I will tell you, this idea that your oath is to the Constitution. We train on this from day one in the military. You think and go through scenarios to make sure you understand lawful orders and ones that aren't. This is something that our senior commanders who served by jags lawyers in the military, think through all the time. We have the best and brightest in the military and for the President and those around him, apparently, to think that a simple recitation of the Constitution and the principles underlying it does require death. That tells you all you need to know about his regard for the rule of law.
COOPER: It's also interesting that this is coming from a President who has never served and as you know by all reports, certainly didn't want to serve in Vietnam. Got out, I guess, with alleged bone spurs. But that he is sort of an arbiter, I think most every service member I've ever spent time with, you know, gone on patrols with they were very aware of what their oath was and what their obligation was and who their oath was given to. The constitution, not an individual.
DELUZIO: I think that's absolutely right. The people I've served with throughout my time when I was in uniform, my friends who've served, I have great faith. And these are patriots from all walks of life, from all corners of the country. We understand the oath we take. They understand the oath they've taken. But as you say, when it was Donald Trump's time to serve, what did he do? He dodged the draft. He used his power and his privilege to avoid service when lots of people, patriotic Americans, risked their lives and many died and were wounded in Vietnam.
COOPER: There are going to be some who a lot of people maybe who see this, see this video and say, well, look, this is incendiary. You're clearly trying to, you know, get a reaction from him or get attention. Why did you make the video?
DELUZIO: Well, I will tell you, people are concerned. There's been plenty of reporting of people in uniform and our government who are worried about being placed in a situation where they might be asked to do something unlawful. You've had judicial rulings as recently as today saying that the President's deployment of troops in American cities is unlawful. People are concerned. And the fact that the President's response to us talking about the oath to the constitution is to call for death tells you exactly why people inside and outside of government are concerned about this Commander in Chief.
COOPER: Congressman, Deluzio, appreciate it. Thank you for your time.
DELUZIO: Thank you.
COOPER: Coming up next, Kara Swisher on the 30-day countdown, the law demands on releasing the Epstein files and the growing questions about whether administration and the President has already figured out a way around it.
And later, new guidance from the government about vaccines and autism. It reflects Robert F. Kennedy vaccine skepticism -- Kennedy Jr.'s vaccine skepticism. The question is, does it reflect actual Science?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:17:51]
COOPER: The Justice Department now has 29 days to release all documents related to the federal investigation of convicted sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. After President Trump signed the bill last night, many Democrats fear that Attorney General Pam Bondi will slow walk the process, redact information or hold back documents due to a new Epstein investigation President Trump just happened to order last week and the Democrats.
Today, Republican Senator Josh Hawley, a Trump ally, says Bondi needs to fully comply with the legislation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): I'd expect her to follow the law completely, and they need to do so swiftly. The statute calls for I think it's 30 days. It's not long that they're supposed to make a report and then make these files available, and they need to do that.
Given the scope of who is involved in this, I'm just really shocked that you can't prosecute more people, and I would urge them to prosecute.
These are serious crimes, wherever you can. They should prosecute because that's how you prevent this from happening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Joining me is Kara Swisher, host of the podcast "Pivot" and "On with Kara Swisher."
Kara, good to have you back. So, you hear Senator Hawley there, there's obviously a big loophole, as has been described a lot now, which allows the DOJ to withhold any documents pertaining to an ongoing investigation. And obviously, Bondi, the President's urging, has suddenly launched investigations into Democrats associated with Epstein. I think, I mean, is anything going to come of this, do you think?
KARA SWISHER, CNN ON-AIR CONTRIBUTOR: I do, I think they're going to have to release it one way or the other. And, you know, they can they can slow walk it as much as they want. But this information is going to get out. The American people want it out the base, Trump's base wants it out more than any one of the American people. That's who really started this thing and Congress has voted it. I don't think they, you know, sooner or later Fox runs out of tricks, that's my feeling on most things. And eventually much of this will get leaked if even small amounts of it, as you saw recently, got out. It's devastating to President Trump.
COOPER: It is so surreal to me, though, how the people who were so vocal in saying that there was a Democratic plot, this was what we were talking years ago. Kash Patel, Dan Bongino, who built a career on this on podcasts, who are now in positions of power. How they have suddenly reversed themselves. And they're now, you know, Kash Patel is standing like, you know, saucer eyed at these press conferences. It's remarkable how weird things are, yes.
[20:20:10]
SWISHER: It's astonishing how hypocritical they are. Of course it is, come on. These people, I mean, they want power more than anything. And obviously, if there's anything problematic for the President, that's going to be, that means their power is limited, right? If he goes down, they go down, that kind of thing. And so, they're going to do whatever it takes to protect him and try to, you know, selectively prosecute people or make allegations that that there's no evidence based. And I agree with Senator Hawley, if there's people to be prosecuted, they should have they should have done this by now. But it has to be done, you know, in a in a lawful way.
I question, you know, when Pam Bondi said lawful, lawful 20 times, I thought illegal, I guess is what she's going to --
COOPER: Maximum transparency was her phrase.
SWISHER: Maximum, yes. I don't, you know, this is doesn't look good for the President because he was friends with this guy for a very long time and probably longer than he is admitting what it looks like from the initial tranche of documents.
And so, you know, he's I think what he's mad about is why it's focused on him. Well, he's the President of the United States. And so, he's trying to throw out any name possible. I thought the most egregious one was Reid Hoffman and some others where there's no evidence of this.
And so, he's impugning and defaming people. But of course, today he threatened Congress people. So, I guess it's just another --
COOPER: I mean, Reid Hoffman's name, he's thrown that out there, Reid Hoffman is a prominent funder of Democratic causes.
SWISHER: Democrats, yes, I hope he sues them for defamation, that's my and gets discovery.
COOPER: That's the way it was. You know, during when Biden was in power and it was the Kash Patels and Dan Bonginos, you know, and people were putting out these phony flight lists and they would put any Democrat who criticized the President, their names would suddenly appear, or anybody who was perceived as critical of the President suddenly popped. I mean, my name was on some phony flight list.
SWISHER: Is it?
COOPER: You know, I don't know, I'm not sure how that even occurred, but.
SWISHER: Yes, who knows? Go ahead, sorry.
COOPER: Sorry, why do you think so many prominent people, like, I mean, like, Larry Summers would stay in touch with Epstein even after he faced charges and after Julie K. Brown's. You know, incredibly important investigation published in the "Miami Herald" which detailed, you know, widespread abuse of underage girls.
SWISHER: Yes, Julie deserves so much credit here. Obviously, the victims coming forward also deserve most of the credit. And these are the people we should be thinking of the whole time. Not, you know, not these people. I find it perplexing.
You know, he showed up at a lot of tech stuff Epstein did. He was at TED, he was at MIT, he was at a lot of places. Now, just because he shows up and you're anything with him that doesn't show anything. But I think what's more sort of odd and egregious that these people who went to dinners at his house. There were all these dinners. I was invited to one at one point, which I didn't know, obviously.
COOPER: Really?
SWISHER: Oh, yes. I was like, I would go, except he's a pedophile, I think that was my excuse. I was like, you know.
COOPER: Is that how you RSVPd?
SWISHER: Yes. Well, in that case, I did. I was like, are you kidding? He's, you know, this was pre the Julie Brown's pieces. I thought, you know, everyone understood what had happened with him. And what they tried to do is sluff it off as, oh, he just likes a young lady, you know what I mean, that kind of thing. And it was very clear.
COOPER: Which is what the former, I mean, what citizen Donald Trump said, like to "New York Magazine" and the famous profile.
SWISHER: He likes young girls, I guess, yes. And so, I just, I don't know what's going to happen here. I just know this stuff is not going to stay quiet now, especially with Congress sort of folding in that way. I thought both Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna, both representatives, were very brave to do that, to really push it through and many others.
And so, he can push it away as much as he wants, and I suspect ultimately he'll, you know, he'll keep it going for as long as possible but eventually all of this stuff gets out, and the idea that they're going to destroy it, they could redact it. But, you know, it's a thing called leaking and that's what reporters do well, I mean, look how good Julie did on those things.
And so, eventually this will all come out and we will see who is who, who is liable and who is not.
COOPER: Yes, Kara Swisher, thanks so much, appreciate it. Coming up next, new reporting that the Trump ordered mortgage fraud investigation of Senator Adam Schiff is now under federal investigation itself. And later, John King all over the map this time Pennsylvania, with the issue of affordability front and center, talking to people about the lower prices, they say they voted for and what they've gotten instead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We changed Presidents at the beginning of the year.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We did.
KING: And the guy who moved into the White House said that he was going to fix it. Several times. He said it would be easy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely.
KING: Has he fixed it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely not. I'm definitely waiting for him to fix it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:29:13] COOPER: Even in a climate in which there's nothing unusual about a
President ordering up federal criminal investigations of his political opponents, this is striking. The Justice Department is now investigating one of those investigations, specifically the mortgage fraud probe, that's targeting California Democratic Senator Adam Schiff and that's led by Trump political appointees.
Bill Pulte, a federal home mortgage official, and the DOJ's Ed Martin, one witness who says she received a grand jury subpoena, tell CNN that she showed up at a D.C. area federal court expecting to testify about Senator Schiff, but instead was questioned by prosecutors who seem more interested in whether, as she put it, there was conspiracy or collusion between me and Pulte or me and Ed Martin.
She added that she never spoken to the two men outside of an occasional light message on social media, but that her independent probe into Schiff was submitted to Pulte's office earlier this year and later referred to the Justice Department, where it was handed off to Martin.
Now, Senator Schiff has denied any wrongdoing, and the Justice Department has declined to comment. Joining us now is former Federal Prosecutor in New York and Democratic Congressman Dan Goldman. Congressman, how unusual is it for a Justice Department, let alone this DOJ, to apparently be investigating one of its own probes?
[20:30:26]
REP. DANIEL GOLDMAN (D-NY), JUDICIARY & HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEES: Its own probes and one of its own employees. It is very unusual. But that almost at this point is, you know, what we say daily about what's going on at the Department of Justice.
It is interesting that she was called in, and I read somewhere, I think, that she was asked about two other investigators who said they were federal investigators and looking into Senator Schiff but made sure they -- they made clear they were not with the FBI. And there's some question as to whether who they were, and whether they were misrepresenting who they were which is a violation of rules.
But it also just goes to show that Ed Martin and Bill Pulte are both two absolute political hacks who do not belong where they are. And we've -- we're already seeing James Comey's case just come unraveling because of incompetence and absolute, you know, egregious behavior by Lindsey Halligan.
Tish James' case also is a total, total sham. They haven't yet charged Adam Schiff, but I think what Todd Blanche, the deputy attorney general, is finally starting to realize is when you just use the Department of Justice for political prosecutions that are not supported by the evidence, you are undermining every single thing that the Department of Justice does.
And so now they may be realizing that Ed Martin, who you may remember, Anderson, traveled to Tish James home in Brooklyn, which is absurd and never done just to -- and brought the press there to make a big scene about it. These guys are not professionals and they very may well have done something wrong.
COOPER: What happens if a person or persons improperly represents themselves to witnesses like in the Schiff investigation, would that actually torpedo the case?
GOLDMAN: Would very likely torpedo the case. Yes. The question would be -- I mean it would be a sort of fruit of the poisonous tree most likely, right, which is to say that whatever evidence they got from the -- misrepresenting who they were could be tainted. But it also calls into question their misconduct and whether they are violating rules who they were working for, whether they were violating the regulations of these agencies.
There are strict regulations. I mean, this is why these massed ICE agents roaming around the United States is so egregious because there are specific rules where they are responsible to identify themselves by the department of Homeland security. Same thing with federal investigators.
COOPER: Right. Well, what's -- it's so bizarre. I mean, I was talking to Shimon Prokupecz early who reported on this lady who was taken by one of these massed customs and borders guys put in his vehicle, which is an unmarked vehicle and driven around for five hours with two other prisoners, all of whom were citizens.
But they had just been at a protest and the border guy was clearly full of adrenaline. He pulled out his handgun, pointed it at crowds of people at individuals, dragged these people, drove around for five hours. No Miranda, nothing, and then dropped them off at the FBI because this guy doesn't have any arrest powers.
And they were released because the FBI was like, what are you talking? Like, this is not how it works. It's incredible to me that's going on.
GOLDMAN: No. And it's going on over and over and over repeatedly all over the country. And you have American citizens being unlawfully arrested by ICE officers. They are prohibited from arresting American citizens. If they do that, that is not part of their official duties.
And when they use excessive force, like the example you just have, that's a violation of state law. That is a crime. That is either kidnapping or assault. And what we need to see a lot more of is local and state police standing up not to protect the ICE officers from when they're doing their operations, but to protect Americans from ICE, which is acting like a lawless rogue militia going after and terrorizing our communities.
COOPER: Yes. Congressman Dan Goldman, appreciate being here. Thank you.
[20:35:01]
I know Christine Bish will be on with Kaitlan at the top of the hour now at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, a major reversal. The agency has changed its website to include false claims that link autism with vaccines. Among the new bullet points on one CDC website, you now see the claim vaccine.
There's a quote, the claim vaccines do not cause autism is not an evidence-based claim because studies have not ruled out the possibility that infant vaccines cause autism. But several credible studies have found no relation between vaccines and autism. And further down, there's the headline that reads "vaccines do not cause autism."
But now there's an asterisk, and that leads you to a footnote explaining that it was not removed due to an agreement with the chair of a Senate committee. That seems to refer to a commitment Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., an anti-vaccine activist made with Republican Senator and Physician Bill Cassidy during his confirmation process.
I want to get some perspective now from Demetre Daskalakis, who resigned in protest as the director of the CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases back in August. Doctor, I appreciate you being here. You call these changes a national embarrassment. Where does this leave parents who are concerned and now perhaps confused?
DR. DEMETRE DASKALAKIS, FMR. DIRECTOR, CDC'S NATIONAL CENTER FOR IMMUNIZATION & RESPIRATORY DISEASES: So the most important message to start with is vaccines don't cause autism. So that's the one message that parents should hear. I think where it leaves parents is really where the secretary left them, actually telling them during a congressional hearing not to take medical advice from him.
So my advice to parents is talk to your pediatrician. The American Academy of Pediatrics completely disagrees with this update. The Autism Foundation disagrees with this update. So speak to people who actually are experts and take care of children. Pediatricians disagree with this.
COOPER: What does the actual science say about vaccines and autism?
DASKALAKIS: The science is very clear. There have been over 40 high quality studies done in seven countries, almost 6 million people in those studies. And the resounding answer is vaccines do not cause autism.
COOPER: Do you think some of this just comes down to bad data and methodology, or do you think this is a coordinated effort to spread disinformation coming from Secretary Kennedy?
DASKALAKIS: Yes, this is a coordinated effort to spread disinformation. So if you can't prove something, just put a document up on the website and speak it into being. So that is what this is. And I think that there is a more nefarious strategy, which is that now you can point at this source document and say we need to include autism and autism spectrum disorders in the vaccine injury compensation program, which is a way to actually create a lot of litigation and probably a lot of money for Secretary Kennedy and his colleagues.
COOPER: Yes. I so appreciate you being here. Thank you so much.
DASKALAKIS: Thank you.
COOPER: Dr. Daskalakis.
Just ahead, John King all over the map talking to voters in Pennsylvania about the President's campaign pledge to lower prices. And a look ahead to New York Mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani's meeting with the President now just hours away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:42:46]
COOPER: In the swing states of Pennsylvania, some voters are losing patience with President Trump's economic agenda. They helped send him back into the White House last November by more than 100,000 votes. From tariffs to grocery prices, many people aren't seeing costs drop and in some cases are soaring.
CNN Chief National Correspondent John King visited Bethlehem, Pennsylvania for this edition of All Over the Map.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bethlehem is blue collar, full of people living paycheck to paycheck. Full of people who come to Jenique Jones for help.
JENIQUE JONES, PENNSYLVANIA DISTRICT 7 VOTER: My business assists people in repairing their credit, managing their finances and basically being financially organized.
KING: So if you're busy, times are tough.
JONES: Absolutely, completely.
KING: And you're busy right now?
JONES: Super busy.
KING: What kind of stories are you hearing?
JONES: My husband lost all of his overtime. My kid's daycare went up. Can't afford the cost of food. Using credit cards for everyday expenses. No money left after their bills are paid. Pretty much just a whole bunch of financial mess.
KING: We changed presidents at the beginning of the year.
JONES: We did.
KING: And the guy who moved into the White House said that he was going to fix it. Several times he said it would be easy.
JONES: Absolutely. KING: Has he fixed it?
JONES: Absolutely not. I'm definitely waiting for him to fix it.
KING (voice-over): Jones is a three-time Trump voter, but she says he has simply failed to keep his promise to lower the cost of living.
JONES: I'm very let down by that. Very, very let down because I feel like it's only gotten worse.
KING: Pennsylvania ranks highest among the states in terms of food inflation. Grocery prices here up more than 8 percent this past year. That is way above the national average.
Housing costs are another piece of the affordability challenge. A one- bedroom apartment here in Bethlehem runs about $1,900 a month on average. That is up nearly 6 percent from last year.
KING (voice-over): This is Gentleman's Barbershop. Customers gripe a lot about rising costs. Ashley Ruiz tries to help.
ASHLEY RUIZ, PENNSYLVANIA DISTRICT 7 VOTER: I'll tell the client, hey, if you get it cut a little shorter, the haircut will have a longer lifeline. Because I want them to feel like they're getting a service that will last longer so their money goes further.
KING (voice-over): She gets it because she does the tough math at home. Rent, food, child care.
KING: All high (ph).
[20:45:05]
RUIZ: They are a lot higher. So I try to make wiser decisions and hope that things will get better.
KING (voice-over): A mix of politics around this table, but everyone agrees costs are up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Insurance is crazy. It's coming on more crazy than next year.
KING (voice-over): Owner Ronald Corales is another three-time Trump voter. When clients or co-workers grumble about costs, Corales urges patience.
RONALD CORALES. PENNSYLVANIA DISTRICT 7 VOTER: Well, hopefully soon. I mean, like --
KING: But it hasn't happened yet?
CORALES: Not really. We don't really see it at the moment. Like I said, I think we have to give him some time.
KING: Back in Bethlehem's heyday, this was its economic powerhouse, Bethlehem Steel. But the blast furnace here last fired 30 years ago, November 1995. A lot of change, but Bethlehem still matters politically.
This is Pennsylvania's bellwether, Northampton County, a place known for picking winners. The winner here in Northampton has gone on to win statewide and win the White House in the last five presidential elections. And in 29 of the 32 presidential elections dating back to 1900.
Trump's win here in 2024 also helped flip this congressional district, Pennsylvania's seventh, from blue to red. Now, the margin in that House race was just 4,000 votes. And so, with affordability as issue number one, Democrats have this district high on the target list as they try to retake the House in next year's midterms.
KING (voice-over): John and Lisa Ronca own Cutter's Bike Shop. Their teenage daughter rides competitively. Sometimes gets injured. They get their health insurance through the Obamacare exchange, and their renewal letter just came.
LISA RONCA, PENNSYLVANIA DISTRICT 7 VOTER: It's going to be triple and --
JOHN RONCA, PENNSYLVANIA DISTRICT 7 VOTER: Triple this year.
L. RONCA: -- which equates to double the cost of what we pay for our mortgage for our house. So that's so we can't keep that plan, to say the least.
KING (voice-over): Health care costs going up, their profit margin already down.
KING: Why? Is this a tariff question?
J. RONCA: Every, like, two to three months, we get letters from the companies, you know, we got to increase. We're having a 10 percent increase, another 10 percent increase. And it just keeps escalating.
KING (voice-over): Sales tend to spike around Christmas, but they're worried this year.
L. RONCA: 20 inch single speed kids bike was $250, which is still decent, decently high. $400 just in the last couple of months. So it's kind of tough. I don't know how many kids bikes we're getting for Christmas. I mean, who's going to spend?
KING: From $250 --
L. RONCA: To $400.
KING: -- to $400 in a couple of months --
L. RONCA: Yes.
KING: -- this year.
L. RONCA: Yes. KING (voice-over): The Roncas don't like Trump and tend to vote blue. But they did support moderate Republican Charlie Dent a few years back when he was the congressman here.
J. RONCA: And it's like I have no problem voting for either side if the person's good for the area.
KING (voice-over): But their stress this November shapes their early thoughts about next November.
L. RONCA: Yes, just this year, it's a big change.
KING: He keeps saying that that's a myth, that prices are down, that, you know, they're gone. Inflation's over.
L. RONCA: He doesn't go food shopping. I mean, I don't know. Yes, it's hard.
KING: How do you vote? Local or national?
J. RONCA: I would -- to me, I'm going to vote for a person who puts a check on them. You know what I mean? Who's going to --
L. RONCA: Yes.
J. RONCA: -- reign --
KING: Right.
J. RONCA: -- the President in.
KING (voice-over): Frustration with prices and with the President in one of those places that tends to decide whether the country stays the course or shifts gears.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And John joins me now. Did you speak with anyone who felt the economy was getting better?
KING (on-camera): No, no. It was just stunning, this visit, Anderson. You see this anxiety, this affordability crisis challenge reflected in the President's approval ratings. They're down. But to hear it was simply stunning.
Nobody said things were better. There were some people who said they were about the same. But a lot of people said it's even worse, even worse, especially two, three-time Trump voters in that piece. And so here's a place where voters moved toward Trump, moved from a Democratic congresswoman to a Republican congressman, newly elected, because they were worried about costs.
A year ago, when we were there several times, remember, we were in this area, in this -- particularly this district. And so this is a huge warning sign, not only for the President and his low approval ratings, but for that freshman Republican congressman, because people say it is not better. And, again, you hear Trump voters saying, now, some say be patient, some say they hope it turns around, but right now they say it's the same or worse.
COOPER: And as we head into next year, what voters are you going to watch out?
KING (on-camera): Fascinating in this area for Latino voters. You saw in the elections just a couple weeks ago, the Latino voters who swung toward Trump last year swung back to the Democrats. In both Bethlehem and in Allentown, you have significant Latino populations.
They are in this congressional district, Pennsylvania 7. That's North Hampton County, has both Allentown and Bethlehem. And you have decent- sized Latino populations in both. And Trump made gains in both Allentown --
COOPER: Yes.
KING (on-camera): -- and in Bethlehem among Latino voters. The Republican congressional candidate made those gains. Trump pulled them along, if you will, coattail effects. So that's what I'm going to keep an eye on as we go forward. Costs and then those groups.
COOPER: John King, thanks.
Two men who have been flinging mud at each other for months are getting together tomorrow in the Oval Office. President Trump is hosting Zohran Mamdani, who on January 1st, will become New York City Mayor.
[20:50:08]
Mamdani requested the meeting. Trump says he wants things to work out for the city. Tom Foreman tonight on what we can expect.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZOHRAN MAMDANI (D), NEW YORK MAYOR-ELECT: I have many disagreements with the President.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The stage is set with Mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani eager to talk about how President Donald Trump can help his city.
MAMDANI: I want to just speak plainly to the President about what it means to actually stand up for New Yorkers and the way in which New Yorkers are struggling to afford this city and, frankly, cost of living.
FOREMAN (voice-over): And Trump perhaps not so eager to lend a hand.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's going to be hard for me as the President to give a lot of money to New York. Because if you have a communist running New York, all you're doing is wasting the money you're sending there.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Mamdani is a democratic socialist, not a communist, but he has been a sharp thorn in Trump's side.
MAMDANI: Donald Trump, since I know you're watching, I have four words for you. Turn the volume up.
FOREMAN (voice-over): In the campaign, Mamdani routinely skewered the President in the town where Trump grew up and built his fortune over inflation, accusations of corruption, election interference, and so much more.
MAMDANI: If anyone can show a nation betrayed by Donald Trump how to defeat him, it is the city that gave rise to him.
FOREMAN (voice-over): For his part, Trump has questioned the citizenship of Mamdani, who is a naturalized American born in Uganda. Trump endorsed Andrew Cuomo, who ran as an independent for the mayor's job, and he declared if Mamdani won, "this once great city has zero chance of success or even survival."
FOREMAN: Perhaps the toughest clash came as Mamdani pledged to fight Trump's amped up efforts to arrest suspected undocumented immigrants.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What you're doing is kidnapping.
MAMDANI: I will be a mayor who will finally turn the page on this chapter of our city. A mayor who not only defends but is proud of our sanctuary city laws. One that recognizes that they are laws that keep us safe.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Trump's answer?
TRUMP: Well, then we'll have to arrest him.
FOREMAN (voice-over): All that has the two men in such wildly opposite political corners. Some analysts suspect even as the President and Mayor-elect are touching gloves ahead of this meeting --
TRUMP: We want to see everything work out well for New York.
FOREMAN (voice-over): -- they are also bracing for a brawl.
MAMDANI: I'll be ready for whatever happens.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Just ahead tonight, I speak to comedian Tig Notaro about what she describes as making friends with the idea of dying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIG NOTARO, COMEDIAN: Not that I'm going to abandon comedy and become a death doula, but --
COOPER: Oh, my God. Don't get me started on death doulas. I mean, I hear from so many of them. It's an extraordinary thing.
NOTARO: It is extraordinary --
COOPER: Extraordinary, yes.
NOTARO: -- and I get it.
COOPER: I get it.
NOTARO: Whereas --
COOPER: I seriously consider giving up my job and --
NOTARO: Anderson and Tig's death doula.
COOPER: I would do it.
NOTARO: I mean --
COOPER: I'll do it if you do it.
NOTARO: Sir, let's do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:57:44]
COOPER: My guest this week in my podcast about loss, All There Is, is comedian and writer and cancer survivor Tig Notaro. I spoke to Tig about her friend, poet Andrea Gibson, who died in July after a four- year battle with ovarian cancer. Tig was at Andrea's bedside at the end.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NOTARO: I don't even know how to explain what I was just a part of and what I just witnessed. It really, really resonated on a very deep level. The humanity was on overdrive.
COOPER: It's beautiful.
NOTARO: It was really beautiful. Really beautiful.
COOPER: I mean, one can't ask for any other way to die.
NOTARO: That's what I want.
COOPER: Yes.
NOTARO: It's really making me rethink a lot of things in my life.
COOPER: Yes, you don't want to go back to just normal life.
NOTARO: I think I want a new normal, not holding on to anything that's not real. I don't know if it's right to say make friends with that idea of dying, but it really should be more in conversation. I don't want my death to sneak up on my kids, although I've had a lot of health issues, so I don't know if it's going to sneak up on anyone.
But I really have such a new -- not that I'm going to abandon comedy and become a death doula, but --
COOPER: Oh, my God. Don't get me started on death doulas. I mean, I hear from so many of them. It's an extraordinary thing.
NOTARO: It is extraordinary.
COOPER: Extraordinary, yes.
NOTARO: And I get it.
COOPER: I get it.
NOTARO: Whereas --
COOPER: I seriously consider giving up my job and --
NOTARO: Anderson and Tig's death doula.
COOPER: I would do it.
NOTARO: I mean --
COOPER: I'll do it if you do it.
NOTARO: Sir, let's do it. It is so --
COOPER: Yes.
NOTARO: I mean, hospice nurses, death doulas.
COOPER: Well, I'm so pale and white, people would think --
NOTARO: I never noticed.
COOPER: -- like they're already in the afterlife when I walk in. You'd get them laughing, and then I would walk in and freak everybody out.
NOTARO: Yes.
COOPER: Like, oh, my God.
NOTARO: I think people would freak out if we were who showed up in their final moments of life.
COOPER: Ding dong.
NOTARO: Hi. We need to get business cards to make.
COOPER: Yes, yes. NOTARO: But this experience with Andrea really made me understand the importance of really talking about death rather than live my life fearing death and trying to kick it away at every possible --
COOPER: Yes.
NOTARO: -- move I'm making because it's coming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: On just about 15 minutes at 9:15 p.m. Eastern Time tonight, and we're going to be speaking to Andrea Gibson's wife, Megan Falley, in another episode of All There Is Live, which is my streaming companion show to the podcast. You can watch it at CNN.com/AllThereIs. It's live at 9:15, 15 minutes from now.
You can also communicate with others watching live in our community comments section. I hope you join me. It's going to be a really beautiful and moving conversation.
The news continues. I'll see you tomorrow. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.
