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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Exclusive: Alleged Drug Boat Sunk In Controversial September 2 Double Tap Strike Was Not Bound For The U.S.; Trump Wins FIFA's First Ever Peace Prize; Accused DC Pipe Bomber Makes First Appearance In Court; Judge Grants DOJ Request To Unseal FL Epstein Grand Jury Records; CDC Panel Votes To Drop Universal Hep B Vaccination For Newborns; "Justice Defenders: Change Inside Prison" Airs Sunday At 8PM ET/PT. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired December 05, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ELEXANDER MICHAELSON, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Erin, next time you're in L.A. you and I are coming here. You're going to try this really, really good.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: That is almost wrong, what you're doing right now to me. That is just, I mean you've been eating like that, you took a giant bite of a Reuben sandwich with whatever that awesome looking sauce.
MICHAELSON It's so good.
BURNETT: Well hopefully you're going to be feeling okay for later tonight because Elex's new show the "The Story Is" will be at midnight tonight and every night and every night 9:00 Pacific. That's a new show around and we will see you then. Thanks for joining us, time for Anderson.
[20:00:41]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, exclusive new reporting, casting doubt on the administration's claim that hitting an alleged drug boat, then killing the survivors was necessary because the boat was heading to the U.S. We now know the mission commander said it was not and something else, he said, raises another question were those survivors signaling for help before they were hit?
Also tonight, close, but not the Nobel. The President gets a newly invented peace prize, but not the peace prize from a soccer league.
Later, the alleged D.C. pipe bomber, today's court appearance and what sources say he told the FBI about the 2020 election, which might shed light on a possible motive.
Good evening, thanks for joining us. For a second straight night. We've got new details casting doubt on the administration's account of the September attack on an alleged drug boat in the Caribbean. Now details, our sources say, which come directly from the commander in charge of it, his Navy Admiral Frank Bradley. Last night we learned that he had told lawmakers yesterday that two
survivors, the first strike did not, and some Defense officials have been claiming for months, radio for backup before a second strike killed them. Tonight, two sources with direct knowledge of the Admiral's remarks tell us he also told those same lawmakers that the boat was heading to link up with a larger vessel bound for Suriname, and that may be important because it undermines the administrations claim about its destination, which the President first made when announcing the strike on social media.
Quoting from the President back then, "The strike occurred while the terrorists were at sea in international waters transporting illegal narcotics, heading to the United States.
Now, it's a claim that supporters of the administration have repeated in the week since. Here's Republican Senator Tom Cotton, after hearing from the admiral yesterday and viewing classified video of the second strike.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TOM COTTON (R-AK): I saw two survivors trying to flip a boat load it with drugs down for the United States, back over so they could stay in the fight. I didn't see anything disturbing about it. What's disturbing to me is that millions of Americans have died from drugs being run to America by these cartels.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Again, our sources tell us, Admiral Bradley said the boat was not bound for this country, though those same sources say he also told lawmakers that the drug shipment could have ultimately made its way here, which he said justified the strikes.
Now, additionally, our sources tell us that the Admiral told lawmakers that the two survivors were waving at something in the air before they were hit, although it's unclear whether they might have been surrendering or asking the U.S. aircraft they had spotted for help.
What could, of course, clear up at least some of the account would be for the administration to release more video, or any video of the second strike, something the President himself was asked about on Wednesday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: You released video of that first boat strike on September 2nd, but not the second video. Will you release video of that strike so that the American people can see for themselves?
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't know what they have, but whatever they have we'd certainly released no problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Well, perspective now from retired U.S. Air Force Colonel
Cedric Leighton, former Army Captain Margaret Donovan, who served in the military's judge advocate generals corps and is a former federal prosecutor and former congressman and member of the Air National Guard Adam Kinzinger.
So, Captain Donovan, I mean, does it change this at all? The idea that this vessel was allegedly heading toward Suriname and not the U.S.?
CAPT. MARGARET DONOVAN, FORMER JAG: Yes, I mean, look, from the beginning, we have myself and likeminded legal scholars have been saying that this is not justified under the law of armed conflict.
COOPER: Point, I mean, no matter what.
DONAVAN: Point blank.
COOPER: Why?
DONAVAN: But some of the -- well, first of all, we're not in an armed conflict. So, I would start there. The snippets of the legal opinion that we have seen because it's classified. So we've only seen pieces of it, seem to indicate that there is some invocation of collective self-defense or self-defense of the United States or of our allies.
However, when you have a boat that is headed now not even to the United States, but to a third party country, and it's not carrying fentanyl, and eventually we shipwreck it. We are so far away from the concept of imminence, which underpins the self-defense justification for going to war. It's not even worth considering. It isn't tied to the facts at all.
Having said all of that, I do just want to reiterate, we're not in an armed conflict so we can talk about the second strike on September 2nd from an armed conflict perspective, if it helps us agree on how horrendous it was.
But overall, this entire operation in the campaign should not be going on. This is a law enforcement mission.
COOPER: So the fact that you're saying it's a law enforcement mission, not an armed conflict, the rules of war would not even necessarily be applicable here.
DONAVAN: No.
COOPER: It shouldn't be discussed in that realm.
DONAVAN: Exactly, if anything, we should be talking about the use of force in law enforcement operations, because right now, as we speak, the Coast Guard is still conducting interdiction missions.
COOPER: Without killing people.
DONAVAN: Without killing people, yes. And they are successfully interdicting drugs all over. They report on it. You can FOIA this information. So, the idea that this particular military unit has decided to pick random boats in the Caribbean and use lethal force against it, that just undermines all of the justifications that the administration has used here.
COOPER: And it's interesting, it's these videos which are being released, not necessarily highlighted by the President coast guard interdiction efforts.
[20:05:42]
DONAVAN: It is, but I'll tell you that if you look on, for example, SOUTHCOM's X page, you can search for the word vessel or interdict if they haven't taken it down yet. And you can find historic instances of when SOUTHCOM or when the Coast Guard has successfully interdicted drugs as recently as August, and they have done so with no loss of life and with no national embarrassment of this scandal that we're looking at.
Colonel Leighton, I mean, does it make sense to you that the military would target an alleged drug boat without clear evidence that it was even heading to the United States, or evidence it seems to be heading to Suriname?
COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, no sense, Anderson, because the intelligence picture that they should be working off of is one in which they would have actual knowledge of the drugs going from point A to point B, and if point B is the United States, then that's one thing. But in this particular case, as Margaret was mentioning we're talking about a completely different country here.
We're talking about the country of Suriname, about the size of Georgia. Most of the drugs that go from Suriname or through Suriname end up in Europe or Africa. Very few of them end up in the United States. So, it makes no sense from an intelligence perspective or from a military perspective to be conducting this operation.
COOPER: Congressman, I mean, you know, we've been getting a drip, drip of information coming out since the admiral testified. Where do you think this goes? I mean, do you see the administration actually releasing video because they're releasing new strike video of other boats?
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I mean, look, if the President said they're going to release it, I'm sure the pressure is going to be there to do it. The interesting thing, by the way, is they'll make the case that from Suriname to either Africa or Europe, they're are allies. And so, we're trying to protect them, right. The country that seems to not really care about allies and stuff like that, but the thing that's interesting to me here, so yes, they may end up releasing it. They may caveat it.
It's just the whole point is, it is completely wasteful to be launching missiles at these boats when, as we talked about, you could interdict them for far cheaper. I mean, there's a cost issue here. I flew counter-drug missions as an Air National Guard pilot, but every one of our missions were not about taking direct action, it was augmenting law enforcement. So, I flew an intelligence plane. We could use our camera to get information and then relay that either to the coast guard or to law enforcement. The last thing too, Anderson, is it doesn't make sense why Venezuela?
As we just heard, some of those drugs go into Suriname, but we have a bigger problem with drug migration in Mexico and other places. It seems like they're just using drugs as kind of a cover for something else.
COOPER: Captain Donovan, to the congressman's point, is this a very expensive hammer and a very like, well-trained hammer going after these boats?
DONAVAN: Yes, absolutely. Look, I used to work airstrikes in Iraq and Syria. Hellfires are expensive. And so, the idea that we are putting this much military might we have the USS Gerald Ford out in the middle of the Caribbean right now. We have all of these military resources dedicated to drug mules. I mean, this just doesn't add up.
You're using Seal Team Six on probably if we were going to even pretend that this was a terrorist target, this would be one of the lowest value targets that you could look at.
COOPER: But I mean, the value I mean, you can make an argument that the value is the images that the administration is putting out, which we're showing on the screen right now. It is -- I think they whether they would make this argument or not, but just from a public relations standpoint, this sends a message to the American people that they're doing stuff and I guess they would say it sends a message to drug cartels, don't send your boats out.
DONAVAN: Yes, well, it sends a message to our allies as well that used to share intelligence with us for drug interdiction. And so, we have seen the United Kingdom and the Dutch all stop sharing intelligence with us over these past few weeks when they realize that their intelligence will be used for something that no doubt they feel is illegal for lethal force and something that doesn't need lethal force to interdict.
COOPER: Colonel Leighton, does that matter, our allies not sending us intelligence or not sharing intelligence?
LEIGHTON: Oh, it matters a great deal, Anderson. One of the key sources of intelligence that we've used, not only in the Caribbean, but in the Middle East and in other places, has been from the United Kingdom. In fact, the whole agreement known as the Five Eyes Agreement, is one of the most critical elements of U.S. intelligence. And when parts of that are not being fulfilled because of policy differences, that's going to really create a big gap in intelligence and not only have the U.K. and the Netherlands stopped sharing intelligence, but Colombia has also stopped sharing intelligence with us and that is another big gap that is really going to be hard to fill with our own resources.
[20:10:15] COOPER: Congressman, it's interesting though, the administration
continues to do these strikes and put out the videos. Do you think that's a thumbing their nose at, you know, you can complain about this all you want, we're going to continue doing this. Is it trying to change the narrative?
KINZINGER: Oh no, it's just like this is everything they do is they try to basically own the libs, right? If somebody gets mad about something, they double down on it, at least from the P.R. perspective. And here's the other weird thing is typically when I was in Congress, if something like this was happening and they didn't want to get an authorization to use force or whatever, they would at least brief key members of the Intelligence Committee, the Armed Services Committee and leadership, it appears they're not even doing that.
And look, if we were serious about fighting drugs, we would model what we did in Colombia, which was really successful, which is Special Forces, the Green Berets worked with the locals to build the actual domestic capacity there to fight drugs, and it was quite successful. But they did it with the cooperation of the Colombian government and of course, in a peaceful way, to build local capacity.
COOPER: But that is boring and there's not pictures of it.
KINZINGER: Right, that's right.
COOPER: I mean, from a from a public relations' standpoint, it's not a story you can tell.
KINZINGER: Yes, that's absolutely right. They want kinetic action. They want to be able to show it. And it's part of looking tough, while really not doing anything that they should be doing.
I mean look, by the way, quickly Ukraine and Russia, instead of we are focusing on these boats when we could be ensuring that Ukraine wins.
COOPER: And for the record, having been out with Green Berets in Haiti a long time ago, their work is not boring. I'm not implying it is actually boring. Congressman Kinzinger appreciate it. Colonel Leighton as well, and Captain Donovan as well. Thank you.
Coming up next, the President gets a peace prize that critics say was made just for him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: This is truly one of the great honors of my life. And beyond awards, Gianni and I were discussing this. We saved millions and millions of lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Later, a federal judge in Florida gives the word, paving the way for the public to see and hear what grand jurors in the Epstein case did. What this actually means? We'll have details on that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:16:50]
COOPER: The Village People singing "YMCA". The President today and the Village People at the Kennedy Center are part of the festivities ahead of next year's FIFA World Cup soccer matches in the U.S., Canada and Mexico. Though the event ran three plus hours, not three days like Woodstock did, this too, was a celebration of peace and music. The Village People, Andrea Bocelli, Nicole Scherzinger, formerly of the Pussycat Dolls, and this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIANNI INFANTINO, FIFA PRESIDENT: Mr. President, this is your prize. This is your peace prize. There is also a beautiful medal for you that you can wear everywhere you want to go.
TRUMP: I'll wear it right now.
INFANTINO: Okay, let me hold -- fantastic, excellent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Looks gorgeous. That's FIFA President Gianni Infantino reminding the awards first recipient that its actually two peace prizes in one. One for the Mantle and one you can wear around your neck.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: This is truly one of the great honors of my life. And beyond, awards, Gianni and I were discussing this, we saved millions and millions of lives. The Congo is an example, over 10 million people killed and it was heading for another 10 million very quickly. And it just, you know, the fact that we could do that India, Pakistan, so many different wars that were able to end in some cases a little bit before they started, just right before they started, it was going to be late.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Keeping them honest, India does downplay the President's role in its ceasefire with Pakistan, saying it was negotiated "directly" between the two countries. As for Rwanda's conflict with the Democratic Republic of Congo, which has been going on for a long time, this is video from today people arriving in Eastern Congo displaced by the fighting, which broke out just hours after yesterday's signing ceremony in Washington of a peace deal between the two countries.
As we reported last night, the venue for this event was the Donald J. Trump U.S. Institute of Peace, newly renamed after the President who actually gutted the agency and is now a freshly minted FIFA peace prize laureate, which, as you know, is not the prize he's really been after.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I think I'm going to get a Nobel Prize for a lot of things. If
they gave it out fairly, which they don't. Well, they gave one to Obama immediately upon his ascent to the presidency, and he had no idea why he got it.
They will never give me a Nobel Peace Prize. It's too bad. I deserve it, but they will never give it to me.
REPORTER: How do you rate your chances of winning the Nobel Peace Prize tomorrow?
TRUMP: Well, I don't know. Look, I made seven deals, and now it's eight. I don't know what they're going to do, really. But I know this, that nobody in history has solved eight wars. The person who actually got the Nobel Prize called today called me and said, I'm accepting this in honor of you because you really deserved it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, FIFA's President also thought so and said so at the time. Early last month, he announced the creation of this new prize. And the President, for his part, today returned the favor with words that might have sparked impeachment hearings had any other American President of either party ever said them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: When you look at what has happened to football in the United States, again, soccer in the United States, we seem to never call it that because we have a little bit of a conflict with another thing that's called football. But when you think about it, shouldn't it really be called? I mean, this is football. There's no question about it. We have to come up with another name for this. It really doesn't make sense when you think about it. It is really football.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:20:48]
COOPER: From his mouth to John Berman's ears. Joining us now is Bomani Jones, host of ESPN's "The Right Time With Bomani Jones Podcast". Also, CNN senior political commentator Ana Navarro and Republican Strategist and CNN political commentator Shermichael Singleton.
Bomani, I mean, I know many people would love to accept this FIFA peace prize. It is a remarkable, I mean, it's almost a parody of what it takes to just please the President.
BOMANI JONES, ESPN HOST, "THE RIGHT TIME WITH BOMANI JONES PODCAST": I mean, you say it's a parody. I say it's a template like Trump isn't difficult. Like to figure out how to make him feel good isn't hard to do. I want to know who the person was this is, what if we came up with our own peace prize? He'll love that. It's like, no, no, no, come on man, he won't love that trust me, he'll love it.
And it worked, the World Cup is going to be here in 2026. He has said some wild things about being willing to take events out of different cities. Right. We also have an immigration force that is ransacking people left and right. FIFA needs the world cup to go smoothly. They can only hope that being nice to this guy will make it easier.
COOPER: Well, it's not just we should point out one, it's actually two and you can wear it out the medals and his --
Shermichael, is there something incongruous about the President getting, I mean, this peace prize. Does it seem odd to you at all that that how much this thrills him and that people know you just get something gold for him.
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, it's not odd to me at all. I mean, I had a mentor, Dr. Larry Lewis, who once told me, Anderson, when I was a lot younger. Sometimes people will do what they have to do for the success they desire. And it was very clear to me that the President of FIFA recognized that they want to have a successful event when in the United States next year, and what better way than not to have a successful event by having the support of the sitting President of the country? And he did what he thought was necessary to assure that.
COOPER: Ana, I mean, does that freak you out? That, I mean, that it's that simple? Like literally get a gold thing?
ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I find it a little comical, Anderson. And, you know, look, in a week where we've talked about possible war crimes, where we have seen Donald Trump, pardon an actual drug kingpin, former President of Honduras, who flooded the United States with 400 tons of cocaine. I would say that the FIFA World Cup President, Gianni Infantino, sucking up to him is really low on my rung of outrageous.
I think you know what it reminded me of? And you have small children, so you'll know what I'm talking about. You know, little kids love to play with their parent's phone. So Fisher-Price makes this phone, which is like, you know, it's got all these badges that kids can press. It's a fake phone.
And so, Gianni Infantino said, okay, how can I possibly flatter Donald Trump? Let me give him a fabricated peace medal, make it gold at the Kennedy Center, and let's have The Village People play. I'm telling you, this guy needs to go on the hall of fame of ass kissing, because this was masterful.
COOPER: But you heard the President float the I mean, jokingly the, you know, changing the name of football and, you know, it got laughter and it's funny had I often, like, used the Obama rule, had President Obama talked about changing the name of American football, people's heads would have exploded.
JONES: Well, also, he, Trump himself is rather spiteful toward the NFL because he feels they have not taken him seriously over the course of time. That is interesting, though, that 20 years ago, people really would have been up in arms about that. That would have been a tan suit moment, if he had said this about football at a different point in time.
COOPER: Yes. Shermichael, how would changing the name of football in the United States square with America first?
SINGLETON: I mean, look, I'm from the south, man, Texas in particular and a lot of people love their football down south. I think people who support the President, Anderson in my home state would not be in agreement with this.
But I just want to say quickly here, Anderson, regardless of what ones opinions may be about the President from an international perspective, there have been a series of some successes that I think the country could be proud of. I mean, I'm happy about what we're seeing with Israel and Hamas, the resolutions there, the attacks that we saw in the Red Sea, attacking shipping that could have literally brought shipping internationally to a complete standstill, that's a good thing.
And even in your highlight, you talked about the DRC and Congo. I did some work there years ago, and even though you're seeing the M23 group, which was the group that's not party to the agreement they recently signed, which is why you saw those people still fleeing. I'm very hopeful that individuals that I've talked to who have spent years working on this are still hopeful that both nations together can move forward in some regard.
And so, those are things that I don't think that should be dismissed or looked over.
[20:25:33]
COOPER: You just got to ask questions about who is actually supporting that that rebel group. And how is it that all these rare minerals from Eastern Congo which are being exported, are suddenly disappearing from the country and are country and are being exported by other neighboring countries who are signatories of this peace deal.
SHERMICHAEL: That's a fair point, including the Chinese, by the way, Anderson, we can't disregard the Chinese and their influence over there as well.
COOPER: Yes. Bomani Jones, appreciate it, Ana Navarro, Shermichael Singleton, thank you so much. Coming up next, what sources tell us the alleged pipe bomber said about the 2020 election and what that could say about a possible motive.
At the end of a week, they saw the release of more Jeffrey Epstein photos. A federal judge paves the way for the public to learn what a Florida grand jury heard in Florida. More on that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:30:56]
COOPER: The suspected D.C. pipe bomber appeared in court for the first time today to face criminal charges. Brian Cole, Jr. entered no plea. Meanwhile, sources briefed on the matter say he told the FBI he believed the 2020 election was stolen, providing maybe a possible indication of a motive. Cole is accused of placing bombs near Democratic and Republican Party headquarters on the eve of the January 6th attack.
Now, yesterday, FBI Deputy Director Dan Bongino was asked about the claims that he had made on his podcast last year, before he was in power at the FBI, of an alleged, quote, "massive cover-up" in determining who was responsible for planting the bombs. Here's what Bongino said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN BONGINO, FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Listen, I was paid in the past, Sean, for my opinions. That's clear. And one day I'll be back in that space. But that's not what I'm paid for now. I'm paid to be your deputy director. And we base investigations on facts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Joining me now is CNN Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst John Miller. One would hope that everybody tries to base things on facts, whether you're paid to do that or not. How significant is it that the suspect -- I mean, we don't know much about, you know, this has come out that the suspect said he thinks the election is rigged. That could be interpreted in a lot of different ways.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Yes, and this is based on the reporting of our own Evan Perez and the justice team in Washington. But what we don't have is the larger context. And why is that important? Because when you sit down a suspect, and that depends on their mental acuity, their mental state, whether you're attaching rational thinking to irrational actors, which never works really well, was this a passing reference to and I think the 2020 election was stolen, or was it enunciated as a driving force behind the reason for placing these bombs.
When do we get to figure that out? There's going to be a detention hearing coming up the week after next where they have to put in all of the reasons they think you should be kept behind bars without bail. That's where you tend to get more detail on these things --
COOPER: Right.
MILLER: -- and of course the indictment.
COOPER: I want to play something that former Fox host and now D.C. U.S. Attorney Jeanine Pirro said today in an interview with ABC News.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANINE PIRRO, U.S. ATTORNEY FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA: This guy was an equal opportunity bomber. He put a bomb outside the Republican National Committee and the Democrat National Committee. He was disappointed to a great deal in the system, both sides of the system. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So that's -- she's saying that inside a data point, but that's what she's saying. Those things could also -- those are not mutually exclusive.
MILLER: No, and it does confuse the motive theory, which is there's always been kind of a subplot here that the bombing may have been part of trying to help the January 6th riots by pulling resources away, you know, to other things that would keep them busy. But if the motive was the election was stolen by the Democrats, why would you put a bomb at the Democrats but also the Republican RNC headquarters?
But that's -- it gets back to what we were talking about, which is we are trying to, you know, assign logic to an individual who we knew was fairly antisocial, stayed at home, didn't communicate with other people. And remember, when all this happened, he would have been 25 years old. That would have been 2020 when he and everybody else was locked up in their home and spending a lot of time on the Internet, falling down rabbit holes --
COOPER: Right.
MILLER: -- into conspiracy theories. So we need to know more.
COOPER: Yes, we'll see if we hear more this hearing.
John Miller, appreciate it. Thank you.
MILLER: Thanks.
COOPER: Up next, what we could soon be learning about convicted sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein after a ruling today by a federal judge in Florida.
Also ahead tonight, a move that some experts say is dangerous. Vaccine advisers to the CDC vote in favor of abandoning universal Hepatitis B shots for newborns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:39:24]
COOPER: A federal judge has ordered grand jury materials and other records from the Jeffrey Epstein case in Florida be unsealed for the first time. A prior bid was rejected earlier this year. This time, though, Judge Rodney Smith granted a new Justice Department request, which came in the wake of a recently passed Epstein Transparency Act.
Now, the DOJ has two weeks to comply with the law. We've learned that the DOJ has also asked two judges in New York to unseal grand jury records related to Epstein and his convicted accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell. Now, all this coming just days after Democrats on the House Oversight Committee released these photos as well as videos from the late sex traffickers' home on a private Caribbean island where authorities say underage girls and young women were trafficked and sexually abused.
[20:40:06]
One image shows what appears to be a dentist chair in one room with masks on the wall. Another shows a blackboard with words scribbled on it, power, deception, plots, and political.
I want to get some perspective now on today's court ruling from Jessica Roth, a former federal prosecutor in the Southern District of New York, and Randee Kogan, a therapist for several Epstein survivors.
So what might we learn from these grand jury testimonies?
JESSICA ROTH, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Yes. So I'm skeptical that there's going to be all that much that constitutes grand jury material that's released because, remember, this was a case that was not presented to a grand jury for an indictment in Florida. The federal case was resolved before that happened by this very sort of favorable non-prosecution agreement that --
COOPER: Right.
ROTH: -- Alexander Acosta negotiated with Epstein. But if there were witnesses who testified before the grand jury, the transcript of their testimony would be released, as could be documents that were obtained in response to a grand jury subpoena. So it could be phone records, it could be bank records, et cetera.
So that's the kind of material that would be encompassed within grand jury records. But I do think that there is actually an interesting question about whether the government would still try to hold back some of that material because the Epstein Transparency Act allows the Department of Justice to redact and withhold material if doing so is necessary to protect an ongoing investigation.
So that could be a rationale for withholding some of the material that the judge's order otherwise would seem to order released, also to protect the privacy of survivors.
COOPER: Right.
ROTH: So there are a whole bunch of reasons why the Department of Justice might still withhold information covered by the judge's order and reason to think that the judge's order actually wouldn't require disclosure in the first instance of all that much material that exists.
COOPER: Right.
Randee, for survivors, what would the release of these transcripts mean, and for their families?
RANDEE KOGAN, THERAPIST FOR EPSTEIN SURVIVORS: Well, they're hoping for some sort of accountability. You mentioned Alex Acosta. They don't understand why Alex Acosta made this deal with Jeffrey Epstein. They want to understand what was in it for Alex Acosta.
Why didn't Alex believe them? Why didn't Alex Acosta read their statements and take that seriously? They felt as though they were dismissed.
COOPER: And, I mean, from a legal standpoint, what about Alex Acosta? I mean, how would you answer those questions?
ROTH: Well, I don't think anything in the grand jury material will necessarily speak to those questions. I mean, the grand jury material would be testimony of witnesses before the grand jury, which is really not going to go to the role of Alex Acosta in all of this.
I think that what would really go to those questions might be more materials in the possession of the Department of Justice that are separate from the grand jury material. So a court order with respect to grand jury material is not necessary for the Department of Justice to release that kind of information, which is why, again, I think the grand jury material request by the Department of Justice is a little bit of a red herring with respect to sort of where is the information, who holds the information that is probably of significant interest to the survivors on this question.
COOPER: And, Randee, I mean, of the survivors you talked to, how concerned are they their names may not be redacted or about information about -- I mean, obviously they want the release of information, and yet do -- is there kind of a dual nature to this?
KOGAN: Absolutely. They're very concerned that their name will be exposed or what happened to them will be exposed. You know, some of my clients are asking me, is there a chance that I can be in trouble for recruiting girls? And I have to explain to them that the recruitment process was part of Jeffrey Epstein's grooming.
He groomed them to believe that if they recruit more girls, then that would make him feel good and that they would feel more special to him, that it would enhance their relationship with him. So it's a very confusing time.
COOPER: Jessica, what do you think the likelihood that -- I mean, is it guaranteed by December 19th this information will come out?
ROTH: Well, the act that was passed by Congress does set a clear December 19th deadline for the release of information, but it does allow the Department of Justice to withhold and to redact for certain reasons. And so the question in my mind is just how much is the Department of Justice going to redact on the basis that the act permits it to, whether it's redaction for the privacy of the survivors or whether it's to, in their view, protect ongoing investigations.
COOPER: Yes.
ROTH: So that creates a lot of potential room for the Department of Justice to withhold information.
COOPER: Yes. Jessica, thank you so much. Randee as well, thank you so much.
KOGAN: Thank you.
COOPER: Well, a historic and for many doctors and parents alarming vote today by the CDC's Vaccine Advisers Committee. The new recommendation no longer give the Hepatitis B vaccine to every newborn. Now, this goes against health policy in America for the last 34 years.
[20:45:00]
Republican Senator Bill Cassidy, who's also a doctor and who cast the deciding vote to confirm Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as Health Secretary, came out against the decision in a social media post that reads in part, "Before the birth dose was recommended, 20,000 newborns a year were infected with Hepatitis B. Now it's fewer than 20. Ending the recommendation for newborns makes it more likely the number of cases will begin to increase again. This makes America sicker."
This vote comes after an event back in September where President Trump touted unproven ties between Tylenol use in pregnant women and autism in their babies. He also spread misinformation about Hepatitis B.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Hepatitis B is sexually transmitted. There's no reason to give a baby that's almost just born Hepatitis B. So I would say, wait until the baby is 12 years old and formed and take Hepatitis B. And I think if you do those things, it's going to be a whole different, it's going to be a revolution in a positive sense in the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, tonight, President Trump is hailing the panel's recommendation as a, quote, "very good decision" and is directing Secretary Kennedy and the CDC to reevaluate the U.S. vaccine schedule.
For more on all this, I want to bring in Dr. Jeremy Faust, an emergency physician at Boston Brigham and Women's Hospital. Dr. Faust, what's your reaction to this? And what would the impact of waiting at least two months to administer the Hepatitis B vaccine be?
DR. JEREMY FAUST, EMERGENCY PHYSICIAN, BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'S HOSPITAL: The President is incorrect. And thank you, Anderson, for giving me the chance to correct that record. Today at the CDC, we saw a panel of self-styled independent thinkers who are all RFK allies take away the birth dose of the Hepatitis B vaccine, a strategy which has saved thousands of infections per year and therefore the long-term consequences to those babies, which is liver disease, which is eventually cancer and death.
So the President, RFK, and the committee that RFK put in place at the CDC is absolutely wrong. Do we want to have more infections? This policy that they put out today, tragically, will achieve that. And it's horrible because we have such good science to say that the three- dose vaccine series, including a birth dose for every baby, has solved the problem. It really solved the problem, Anderson.
COOPER: Well, let me ask you, because the President said, well, it's sexually transmitted, so why would you give it to a newborn. Can you explain how a newborn could get Hepatitis B from exposure, contrary to what the President said?
FAUST: So the mother can get Hepatitis B at any time and give it to the infant. That's -- there can be vertical transmission during pregnancy. There can be horizontal transmission, meaning when the baby gets home and they are exposed to -- people who have the virus or who acquire the virus at any time.
And that happens not often but often enough that the targeted strategy fails. When we got away from the targeted strategy of just going after high-risk babies and vaccinating them, when we replaced that with vaccinations for all babies, our incidence, the number of cases of Hepatitis B, virtually vanished. So he's just wrong that this is not a concern. We've seen that there was a prior attempt with that, and it failed.
COOPER: Do you expect pediatricians will still recommend newborns get the Hep B vaccine at birth?
FAUST: They should. But the problem is that pediatricians and other health care clinicians are very busy, and now parents are going to have this in their ear of, oh, the CDC no longer thinks this is necessary. I have questions. And we know that this will decrease uptake.
We know that when the CDC weakens recommendations around its vaccines, that uptake goes down and disease goes up. So, unfortunately, nothing this administration has done has made vaccines more available. They've made it less available. They have emphasized these theoretical harms that they're basically anecdotes that the data don't show, and they de-emphasize these incredible clinical trials that show the benefit over and over again.
And we're seeing it drip by drip that Secretary Kennedy is doing what we thought he would do, which is to undermine our vaccine apparatus. Senator Cassidy is a smart physician, but he made one of the most irresponsible and costly decisions in American medical history when he put a vote in to confirm Secretary Kennedy.
COOPER: Yes. Dr. Jeremy Faust, I appreciate it. Thank you.
Coming up next, I'll take you to a prison in Kenya where a remarkable nonprofit called Justice Defenders is helping incarcerated people and prison guards learn the law, as many who are incarcerated wait for a hearing in court, often for years, without access to an attorney.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: In this cell, there's 170 men who sleep here. It's a cell built for about 70 people. There's one toilet for all 170. It is stifling hot. There's very little ventilation. The conditions are difficult, to say the least. All the men here sleep on the floor, and they have to sleep on their sides because there's not enough room for somebody to sleep flat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:54:47]
COOPER: This Sunday on The Whole Story, I'll bring you the incredible story of Alexander McLean. He's the founder of a nonprofit organization called Justice Defenders, working in some very tough prisons in Kenya and Uganda and Africa. What makes them unique is they train incarcerated people and prison guards to become paralegals, with some even earning law degrees.
[20:55:03]
They then help others in the prison understand the law and their rights and get a fair hearing. McLean hopes one day to bring the prison -- the program to prisons in the United States. Here's some of what I saw of their work.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): Inside Thika prison, one day feels the same as the next. At 6:00 a.m., men on kitchen duty prepare breakfast over open flames.
About 900 incarcerated men line up. They wash their hands and quickly get their meal.
Today, like many days, it's a kind of cornmeal porridge and beans. It's grim, but orderly. The guards keep tight control, though overcrowding is a constant concern.
COOPER: In this cell, there's 170 men who sleep here. It's a cell built for about 70 people. There's one toilet for all 170. It is stifling hot. There's very little ventilation. The conditions are difficult, to say the least.
All the men here sleep on the floor, and they have to sleep on their sides because there's not enough room for somebody to sleep flat. They're in this room from around 5:30 in the afternoon until 6:00 a.m., all of them together here. There's been an outbreak of scabies because of the close conditions.
COOPER (voice-over): Just outside the cell, hundreds more men sit in rows. Five times a day, they gather for headcount. The guards tally their numbers.
By now, the men are used to this routine. They know what to expect from prison life on a daily basis. What many here and in prisons throughout Kenya don't know is how long they'll be locked up. Some can't afford to pay a relatively small bail. Others aren't sure of the charges against them. They don't have access to an attorney and don't know their rights.
COOPER: There are inmates here who have been convicted of crimes and many others who are still waiting to see a judge. Inmates who wear the striped uniform, that means they've had their case heard, they've been convicted by a court, but they're doing a headcount now of inmates who have not been convicted of anything.
There are several hundred people here. There's more in this cell as well. And very few of these hundreds of people have access to an attorney.
COOPER (voice-over): On this day, however, there's a special visitor.
ALEXANDER MCLEAN, FOUNDER AND CEO, JUSTICE DEFENDERS: Good afternoon, brothers and sisters.
CROWD: (INAUDIBLE).
MCLEAN: Alexander McLean, Founder and CEO of Justice Defenders. It's great to be back here with you.
COOPER (voice-over): Alexander McLean is a British-Jamaican lawyer who founded Justice Defenders 18 years ago. In this prison and 21 others in Kenya and Uganda, Justice Defenders has trained about 240 men and women to be paralegals and helped 67 get law degrees so they can help others behind bars.
MCLEAN: So I'm excited and expecting for the time that we're going to share. Some have been in prison for long periods, and we thank each of you for your discipline and your hospitality.
COOPER (voice-over): We followed Alexander McLean and others from Justice Defenders for weeks as they worked in four different prisons in Kenya, three of them maximum security facilities. McLean was welcomed by prison officers and guards who are also eligible to receive the same legal training Justice Defenders offers those who are incarcerated.
MCLEAN: As Justice Defenders, we stand with you in love and solidarity because the law is for you.
COOPER (voice-over): In this prison, McLean is speaking to about 150 men waiting for their court date.
MCLEAN: Raise your hand if you have a lawyer representing you.
COOPER (voice-over): Only about 10 raised their hands indicating they have access to a lawyer.
MCLEAN: And those who don't if you don't have a lawyer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking Foreign Language)
COOPER: How common is it to meet people who have never had an attorney and they've been incarcerated for years awaiting a trial?
MCLEAN: In countries like Kenya and Uganda, but all around sub-Saharan Africa and far beyond, you'll find that an often 70 or 80 or 90 percent of the prison population has never met a lawyer.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Don't miss the full report, an entire hour, and a new episode of my Sunday night program, The Whole Story. It airs 8:00 p.m. Eastern Pacific Time Sunday right here on CNN.
Tomorrow night, get ready to be inspired. Join Laura Coates and me for CNN Heroes: An All-Star Tribute at 8:00 p.m. when we honor this year's top five heroes, all remarkable people. And we'll reveal the CNN Hero of the Year with help from several celebrities, including Meryl Streep, Adam Scott, and Parker Posey.
It's a great night, and it really honors some truly remarkable people doing incredible things. I hope you join me for that.
That's it for us. I hope you have a great weekend. I'll see you Monday.
The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.
