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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Remembering Rob Reiner; Americans Are Losing Millions To Scammers At Crypto ATMs; One-On-One With Painter Amy Sherald; Anderson & Andy's Top New Year's Moments. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired December 26, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He remembered. His wife said, you know, this was a symbol of survival. It's now a symbol that you can bring stuff back. You can restore one part that they couldn't find. They eventually found on a warehouse shelf in France. It had been gathering dust for 40 years. Now, it's in a zoo -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: It's amazing, what an amazing report, the little singed survivor as Nick said. Thank you so much, Nick. Thanks so much for joining us. The news continues now.
[20:00:40]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, Rob Reiner's legacy, my all too recent conversation with him about the movies of his we can't stop quoting.
Also tonight, CNN investigates scammers using phones and the high tech crypto economy to bilk people out of old fashioned cash thousands of dollars at a time, using ATMs at convenience stores you might know.
And later, the remarkable painter Amy Sherald on her rise from obscurity to art world stardom and why she did what almost no artist would turn down a major exhibition at the Smithsonian.
Good evening, welcome to a special edition of 360, and it comes with all the best wishes of the season and for the year ahead. The season also comes shrouded in sadness in the wake of another mass shooting, this time at Brown University, and the murder of legendary actor- director, Rob Reiner and his wife Michele, compounding the tragedy, police say they were killed by their son, Nick, who is now charged with two counts of first degree murder and is awaiting arraignment. His struggle with addiction was his long as his parents devotion to him. What's almost unimaginable loss to the Reiner family is being deeply felt as well in the Hollywood creative community and of course, by everyone touched by Rob Reiner's remarkable body of work.
With that in mind, we begin tonight with editor at large for "The Late Nighter" Bill Carter, who knew Rob Reiner and interviewed him over the years.
Bill, it's obviously just incredibly horrific what has happened. You look at Rob Reiner's incredible body of work. I mean, it's hard to overstate the importance of "All in the Family" at the time that it came out, it was one of the first T.V. shows I was allowed to watch as a kid, it was revolutionary.
BILL CARTER, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, "THE LATE NIGHTER": It was, It actually changed television. It made the sitcom more important than just a bunch of jokes and he was an absolutely integral part of that. And, you know, it raised his image as something somebody who wasn't just Carl Reiner's son. You saw this guy and you thought, well, this is another talented Reiner.
COOPER: You also look at a movie -- I mean, all the movies he did, I mean, "Spinal Tap," you know, probably the first mockumentary that created an entire genre that is, you know, I mean, and, you know, they came out with a second one for which I interviewed him about, and were going to play that later on in the broadcast.
The movie, "The American President," screenplay by Aaron Sorkin, directed by Reiner. Incredibly well cast, deeply realistic. You felt like you were in the White House and, you know, a great romantic comedy, it holds up.
CARTER: It is a remarkable body of work. I mean, you know, he isn't mentioned with like, Scorsese and people like that, but you put those films together and as you pointed out, this is like the echelon, the top echelon in those genres, the top echelon of romantic comedy is "When Harry Met Sally" and he started the mockumentary genre, which, as you pointed out, extends now to television, et cetera.
Really extraordinary, if you put those films together, you would say, that is one amazing career. And he was also an actor. He was, acting recently. He was in "The Bear" you know, as a character. He still kept that part of his career going. He really had a remarkable career and people don't really realize that. But I want to say one thing about him, he was very funny, Anderson. He just was a naturally funny guy and he was great to spend time with because he was a fantastic storyteller. He would tell stories of things that happened on the movies and that happened in, you know, in the in the days of "All in the Family" and he just was very engaging and enjoyable.
COOPER: Yes, well, in the interview that we're going to play later, he talks about -- they made no money from "Spinal Tap."
I mean they like saw hardly any money whatsoever. I want to play something that Rob Reiner said last year about changing the ending to "When Harry Met Sally" after meeting his wife Michele on the set.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROB REINER, ACTOR-DIRECTOR: The original ending of the film that we had was that Harry and Sally didn't get together, because I had been -- I've been married for ten years. I've been single for ten years, and I couldn't figure out how I was ever going to be with anybody, and that gave birth to "When Harry Met Sally" and I hadn't met anybody, and so, it was going to be the two of them seeing each other after years, talking and then walking away from each other.
I met my wife, Michele, who I've been married to now 35 years. I met her while we were making the film and I changed the ending. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I love that story, and I mean, it's obviously a very competitive industry. He had a really wonderful reputation.
CARTER: He did. If you look at his friends, Billy Crystal is like his one of his best friends and Albert Brooks and all these very, very funny and accomplished guys. And it wasn't because he was the son of a famous guy. It was because he made his own reputation.
An interesting thing about Norman Lear, because I spent time with them together and they established a very unique father and son thing because of all in the family. And I don't know if people know this, but Norman Lear put up the money for "Spinal Tap". That's how that movie had been made. That was -- he put up two million dollars, that would not have ever been made without Norman Lear.
[20:05:45]
COOPER: Bill Carter, thank you so much.
In September, I had the absolute pleasure of interviewing Rob right here at this desk. As a kid, "Stand By Me" was an incredibly important movie in my life, and so was "Spinal Tap." I have watched it a lot. As Rob found out when he was on to promote its sequel and a book about the original film.
So tonight, with the understandable horror over how he died and his wife, I want us all to spend a little time with Rob Reiner as he was in life.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: I'm sure you get this wherever you go, but I am trying to resist the urge to just regale you with one-liners from "Spinal Tap."
REINER: Well, you know, this goes to 11, which you hear all the time.
COOPER: I don't know. I wasn't going to do that. I was going to do --
REINER: I know -- yes.
COOPER: -- Bobbi Flekman from Polymer Records.
REINER: Yes, yes, yes.
COOPER: Money talks, and (bleep) walks.
REINER: There you go. Yes.
COOPER: I --
REINER: And my favorite is "A Fine Line Between Stupid and Clever."
COOPER: Of course. I met her on Sunday.
REINER: We have a book out now with that --
COOPER: It was my lucky Monday.
REINER: Yes.
COOPER: You know what I mean. You know what I mean.
REINER: This goes to 11. It's actually --
COOPER: It's too much. It's too much. It's too (bleep) perspective.
REINER: There you go. This goes to 11 is in the Oxford English Dictionary.
COOPER: As it should be.
REINER: As it should be.
COOPER: But, I mean, you must get people all the time just regaling you.
REINER: Yes, you do get --
COOPER: And like -- and it must be annoying. Like, yes, I know, that was in 1984.
REINER: No, no, it's fun. It's fun to know that you have things that a movie you made has had that kind of impact. It is fun.
COOPER: I just want to ask you about it like every individual scene in the film that I'm obsessed with. But I will -- we going to have to resist. Did you have any idea when you were making "Spinal Tap" how genius it was and that it would -- well, do you have any idea --
REINER: No.
COOPER: -- how -- what it would be?
REINER: No, no. And it took a long time. But first --when it first came out --
COOPER: But you knew it was good.
REINER: Well, yes, we thought it was good, but it's satire. And you know that expression, satire is what closes on a Saturday night in -- on Broadway. When we first did it, people came up to me and they said, I don't understand this. Why would you make a movie about a band nobody's ever heard of?
And one -- you know, why wouldn't you make it about The Beatles? They thought it was a real band.
COOPER: I mean --
REINER: They thought it was a real documentary.
COOPER: Anybody in the world who does this hand gesture, I mean, you know it's from "Spinal Tap."
REINER: Yes.
COOPER: You know? It's like the puppet show in "Spinal Tap" and someone's just sitting there like this.
REINER: You know everything.
COOPER: Yes.
REINER: You know every line from the film --
COOPER: I'm obsessed.
REINER: -- more than I do.
COOPER: So what was the decision to -- how did it come about to decide to try to top it?
REINER: It's crazy because for years, people kept saying, do a sequel, do a sequel.
COOPER: Right.
REINER: We never wanted to do it. We figured we did it. That's it. The bar's too high. But this is the honest to God truth.
In 40 years, the four of us were supposed to split 40 percent of the profits. And I'm not exaggerating. This is going to sound like a joke. Each one of us got $0.82. It's just a joke. It sounds like a joke, but that's it. We never got any money.
COOPER: How were you robbed of the profits?
REINER: Well, it's --
COOPER: I'm using the term --
REINER: It's called creative accounting.
COOPER: Okay.
REINER: And Harry Shearer --
COOPER: So you really made no money from the film?
REINER: No money. No money. Harry said, that's not right. We should get the rights back. He sued, got the rights back. Now we have it back. We said, what are we going to do with it?
We still said, leave it alone. But then we started talking and amongst the four, you know, three of us, we start -- it was four of us now, we're thinking, wait a minute, the three guys have not played together in 15 years.
So why? Was there bad blood? Were they not talking? That all of a sudden gave us the idea. Then we looked around, we thought, all these older bands --
COOPER: Well that's the thing, yes.
REINER: -- these old guys, you know, the Stones are out there, the Eagles --
COOPER: ACDC, I'm just looking at them.
REINER: AC -- they're all out there. I saw, you know, The Who, you know --
COOPER: Yes.
REINER: -- they're out there doing it. You know, we thing -- and Oasis just came back together.
COOPER: Yes, yes.
REINER: We said, okay, it's about old guys having to do one last concert. So it all started to come together.
COOPER: Wow. And the companion book, too, is --
REINER: Yes.
COOPER: -- the behind the scenes of --
REINER: Yes.
COOPER: -- "Spinal Tap."
REINER: The book is called -- here we go, "A Fine Line Between Stupid and Clever." And if you can see, it's written by me --
COOPER: Right, Rob Reiner.
REINER: -- and, you know, with the guys inside. But then if you flip it over, it's called "Smell the Book," which is from the movie.
COOPER: A reference to "Smell the Glove."
REINER: "Smell the Glove."
COOPER: Yes.
REINER: And it's written --
COOPER: Which was a song.
REINER: -- and it's by Marty DiBergi, which is the character I play, and with Nigel and David.
COOPER: And Marty DiBergi, you played an interviewer making this --
REINER: Yes.
COOPER: -- fake documentary.
REINER: Yes.
COOPER: Loosely based, lovingly based, on Martin Scorsese.
[20:10:08]
REINER: That's right.
COOPER: Right.
REINER: I had seen "The Last Waltz," I've seen it a million times.
COOPER: Yes, yes.
REINER: I looked at all the rock and roll documentaries. But that was the only one where I saw the director inserted himself.
COOPER: Right.
REINER: You know, all the rest of them, you don't see the documentarian and he's behind the scenes. But Marty was out there interviewing the fan.
COOPER: Right.
REINER: I said, hey, I could -- that's a character I can play.
COOPER: And when -- so when you're shooting it, do you do multiple takes, and is each one slightly different, or it's just -- how much of it is --
REINER: They're all different.
COOPER: -- I mean, how much was improv?
REINER: It's all improvised.
COOPER: First, in the old one --
REINER: The whole --
COOPER: -- and the new one as well.
REINER: Every -- all the dialogue is improvised. We have a basic structures --
COOPER: So all those lines that are like --
REINER: All improvised.
COOPER: Wow.
REINER: All improvised. And so you do two or three takes, but they're all different.
COOPER: Yes.
REINER: You're not going to get the same lines.
COOPER: Right. Yes.
REINER: And especially Chris Guest, he is so in the moment, he can't remember what he did the first time. So every once in a while, you know, you'll get me.
COOPER: In the scene of, you know, this one goes to 11, he actually then did a rebuttal, and that wasn't planned.
REINER: Well, no. What happened was, we knew we were going to do a thing about an amp that went to 11, because we had the prop made up. But how we talked about it, that was never discussed. So I suggested something. He didn't know I was going to say it.
I said, well, I don't understand. Why don't you make 10 the top number, make that a little louder, and have 10 be the top number? He didn't know what to say to that. So he just takes this long pause, and he goes, well, this goes to 11. That was his answer. I pinned him into a corner, and he came up with that.
COOPER: The other thing that's so incredible about "Spinal Tap," just the influence. I mean, it spawned the entire -- I feel like it spawned the entire kind of mockumentary, or, you know --
REINER: It did. I mean, you know, listen, we didn't plan to do that, but you see that technique used --
COOPER: Best in show.
REINER: You know, well, Chris' docs --
COOPER: Yes.
REINER: -- that we did at, you know, Castlerock, yes. But like, you know, "The Office" --
COOPER: Right, yes.
REINER: -- "Abbott Elementary," Parks & Rec" --
COOPER: Yes.
REINER: -- this -- they used this kind of documentary form.
And even Ricky Gervais, who I talked to about this, he said, oh, yes, we stole it. You know, I saw "Spinal Tap." It's my favorite comedy of all time, and I used it for -- I told him it was my idea, and then I used it.
COOPER: And they -- but they used to actually go on tour -- I mean, they play the --
REINER: Yes. COOPER: They could play to Carnegie Hall.
REINER: Well, they're really good musicians.
COOPER: Yes.
REINER: And that's the other thing. They take pride in the fact that they are really good musicians. And the second film, a fine line, you know, which is, you know, the -- it's called "The End Continues."
COOPER: Right.
REINER: "Spinal Tap 2: The End Continues." You've got Elton John in there talking about that they're really good musicians. And that you don't -- they're not like a normal heavy metal band. You don't find --
COOPER: So they're really playing.
REINER: They're really playing.
COOPER: Wow.
REINER: Every single note is them, and it's all live. And he said, you don't find a mandolin player in a heavy metal band.
COOPER: The songs must have been written -- were written --
REINER: Oh, yes, no, the songs were written.
COOPER: Song are okay. All right.
REINER: The songs were all written.
COOPER: I mean, in ancient times "Before the Dawn of History" --
REINER: Yes, that's all written. I'm going to -- here's a crazy one. Here's a line that Nigel says. No one knows who they were or what they were doing. Okay, so if you go to Stonehenge --
COOPER: Yes.
REINER: -- there's an educational center.
COOPER: No.
REINER: They have quotes up there. Philosophers, poets, scientists. And up there it says, no one knows who they were or what they were doing. Nigel Tufnel, rock musician. It's right up there.
COOPER: That's amazing.
REINER: Yes.
COOPER: I love it when they try to check into a hotel --
REINER: Hotel, yes. COOPER: -- and it's not ready, and the manager who's, you know, they're --
REINER: You know, Paul Benedict (ph).
COOPER: The guy behind the counter, who I think was the doorman on "The Jeffersons."
REINER: "The Jeffersons," yes, it's Paul Benedict.
COOPER: His line was like, I'm just as God made me.
REINER: Yes, yes. Well, he's -- he gets mad at people.
COOPER: How I know this --
REINER: Because Tony Hendra is the manager. You twisted, fruity quotes. But he says, I'm just as God made me, sir.
COOPER: Just as God made me.
REINER: Yes.
COOPER: Wow. I mean, you brought me so much joy through this and so much work that you've done. And also, I mean, you are also a very committed patriot and citizen of this country and concerned about this country. Yes, I just think you're awesome.
REINER: Thank you so much.
COOPER: Yes.
REINER: Thanks for having me. Thanks for talking with me.
COOPER: Wow. It's my pleasure. Yes. I hope I didn't just fall into the trap of just riffing like a fan --
REINER: Like a fanboy.
COOPER: Yes. Right.
REINER: It's all right. I don't mind it.
COOPER: Okay, Rob Reiner, thank you so much.
REINER: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Coming up next, my conversation with cinematographer Barry Markowitz who helped Nick Reiner make a movie based on his addiction struggle and saw firsthand his wife's devotion to his troubled son.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:18:44] COOPER: Barry Markowitz is someone who knew the Reiners well, stayed at their home recently. He was a cinematographer on the film that we just mentioned then Nick Reiner co-wrote "Being Charlie," it's called, which was loosely inspired by Nick's experiences with addiction and directed, as I said, by Rob. I spoke with Barry Markowitz earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Barry, I'm so sorry for your loss. I know you were incredibly close to Rob and Michele Reiner. First of all, how are you doing?
BARRY MARKOWITZ, CINEMATOGRAPHER: I'm broken, Anderson. You know, I met Rob many years ago on, the film that his son wrote and Nick, you know, a healing script about his putting his life out there.
COOPER: That was the film about Nick's drug use and his dad directed it, and it was an opportunity for them to work together. What was Nick like?
MARKOWITZ: Nick was on the upswing there because he was busy. He was relevant. He was working. He was writing. He was, you know, there. And he did a project where he put his heart and soul out to the world, which is a big thing. The mensal right thing to do and his father treated him with respect like he was the writer and the and his story very sensitive. We had a good time doing it. If I can say that, and we had laughter and tears and it was one big family. And let me tell you, I never met somebody that did so much for his kid and all his kids that, you know.
COOPER: It seemed like both him and Michele just time and again would do whatever they could rehab, whatever it was.
MARKOWITZ: They never gave up. They never gave up. They tried everything.
COOPER: You stayed routinely at the Reiner's house whenever you'd come to L.A., they'd always insist that that you stay there.
[20:20:51]
MARKOWITZ: They would insist.
COOPER: When was the last time you stayed there?
MARKOWITZ: Three weeks ago.
COOPER: Wow, and what was it like? I mean, did you see Nick. When my friend called me up, he was supposed to go to L.A. I asked Michele, can I stay a couple of days? I said there, she says two days, you're staying longer than that. She says no hotels for you. This is the hotel, she says, we got a refrigerator. We got a nice warm bed and we got the best toilet paper in town.
Yes, that was Rob's line, she used it. I knew the family. We'd sit together and eat the whole family, Nick, Rumy, the dogs. Jake. Rob and Michele we we'd sit, we'd eat, we'd sit. They liked family dinner, family time, old school, and we'd watch T.V. We'd see movies, we'd see basketball games. We'd all, in unison, scream at the T.V. like families do. It was a riot!
COOPER: Did you see nick on your last trip there? And a couple of weeks ago. And I mean, how did he see him? Because I saw a picture of him at the premiere for the sequel to "Spinal Tap," which was in September, and he looked really different. He looked like he'd gained a lot of weight.
MARKOWITZ: When I got there three weeks ago. He looked thin, much thinner day and night. He was, you know, dressed great always. And he was just participating.
COOPER: Are you angry at Nick?
MARKOWITZ: No, listen, I knew the guy and Nick and his interview says how much he loves his father. I mean, he lived in the house there. Rob was never threatened. They invited me to stay there. Nick was around. Never fearful. I never felt anything. You know, it's the sickness, Anderson. I don't want to just put it off and say, oh, well, you know, it's hard for me to hate the guy because I know people in my life that have mental sickness and you can't hate them.
COOPER: And Rob and Michele never give up, never gave up on him.
MARKOWITZ: Never, They lived for their kids. They lived for their kids, Anderson, like my parents did.
COOPER: I really, really appreciate it because it's so nice to have somebody who's a real friend who stayed there, who just, you know, who feels this. So, Barry, I really appreciate it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Next, CNN investigates how convenience stores across the country, including Circle K, have become a hub for scams involving crypto ATMs.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:28:09]
COOPER: Thousands of Americans, many of them retirees, have fallen victim to scams involving crypto ATMs. So far this year, more than a quarter of a billion dollars has been stolen. Scammers trick Americans into dumping millions a day to ATMs and that cash is then turned into cryptocurrency, which ends up in the hands of scammers overseas and the ATMs are easy to access, there are convenience stores across the country.
One of the largest crypto ATM corporate deals involve Circle K. More tonight from CNN's Kyung Lah.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STEVE BECKETT, SCAM VICTIM: I'm holding several hundred dollar bills in my hand.
KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Steve Beckett was being robbed, and it was happening in a familiar safe place.
BECKETT: I'm thinking, okay, why the Circle K? And then he told me that's where the Bitcoin machine is located.
LAH: A scammer on the phone made Steve believe he was in legal trouble.
BECKETT: I got a call and said he was with the federal reserve board. I was scared to death of what's going on. I'm thinking I'm going to jail.
LAH: And there was only one way out.
BECKETT: Give me instructions and told me what to do.
LAH: You put $7,000.00 into this machine.
BECKETT: Yes.
LAH: The scammer told Steve to put his cash into the machine. It was instantly converted to crypto, and the scammer, likely based overseas, disappeared. The owner of this is Bitcoin Depot, the largest crypto ATM operator in the U.S. But the host of the machine at the center of the scam is Circle K.
BECKETT: Because it's in a convenience store, you think everything in a convenience store is for your convenience.
LAH: Crypto ATMs let people buy Bitcoin using cash, but the machines can charge high fees on transactions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, it's a scam.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're all talking about -- just wait one second.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If that somebody telling you not to hang up, hang up. Don't put in any more money they're scamming you. I promise you.
LAH: Scammers are ripping people off using crypto ATMs across the U.S., but Circle K is Bitcoin Depot's largest corporate partner.
CNN and ICIJ reviewed more than 150 cases of scams using crypto ATMs inside Circle Ks. Three, Circle K employees tell us they know about the problem of crypto scams, and some even alerted their management. The retailer has kept the machines in its stores and even renewed a deal with Bitcoin Depot earlier this year.
[20:30:27]
Bitcoin Depot founder Brandon Mintz explained at a 2019 conference why having crypto machines in stores is key to earning trust.
BRANDON MINTZ, FOUNDER, BITCOIN DEPOT: Once you have a physical machine sitting somewhere next to an ATM that you've used all the time, a store you always go to, you're going to think that this is a real service and you're going to feel a lot more comfortable using it.
LAH (voice-over): And it has paid off. Bitcoin Depot earned $500 million in revenue last year. Bitcoin Depot tells CNN it includes multiple warnings on their machines and bad actors are to blame for scams.
STEVE BECKETT, SCAM VICTIM: I'm a sucker because I'm a senior citizen? That's sad.
LAH (voice-over): Steve Beckett says he fell for the con because the scammers sent him to his local Circle K.
LAH: What is the responsibility of these convenience stores like Circle K?
BECKETT: These stores that these machines are in need to be held responsible. Shame on you. Why? Because you're not making enough?
LAH (voice-over): Circle K tells CNN the crime starts outside of their stores, and it works with Bitcoin Depot to meet its standards and customer expectations. But Circle K also makes money. The company has earned millions of dollars by hosting the Bitcoin ATMs while its own customers get scammed inside their stores.
One Circle K employee at a city council hearing in Florida said her company turns a blind eye.
DEBBIE JOY, CIRCLE K EMPLOYEE: I see this way too much. And Circle K policy is "It's not our machine, it's not our problem." But I see it all too often.
LAH (voice-over): Scams inside Circle K stores are so common that their own employees have fallen for them. Take a look at this sign behind the counter, ordering workers to never drop money from the register into a Bitcoin ATM. And listen to what a Circle K district manager told police after a scam was interrupted in Niceville, Florida.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hate these machines. I'd like to get them out of the stores.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can only imagine how much scam victims money is going through those machines.
LAH (voice-over): Sergeant Nathan VanCleave works in financial crimes for the Evansville, Indiana Police Department, his hometown.
SGT. NATHAN VANCLEAVE, EVANSVILLE, INDIANA POLICE: We really desperately at this moment need to get the plug pulled on these Bitcoin ATMs to make the scams harder. The roadblock is the big corporations, gas stations that are hosting these Bitcoin ATMs. They need to give up the profit that they are making off of scam victims.
LAH: You're asking a corporation to take a moral choice here. VANCLEAVE: The right thing to do is to lose that profit and not cause harm to other people. We had a local store in town once we told them, hey, these machines are only for scams, they just pulled the plug on it.
LAH: The machine was just right over there, right?
KATE REDMAN, MANAGER, HAYNIE'S CORNER MART: There in the back. And we pulled it. I pulled the cord.
LAH: You pulled the cord out of the wall?
REDMAN: Yes.
LAH: Doesn't the store need money?
REDMAN: We need money, but we didn't like carrying these plates and we don't like to watch them get ripped off.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LAH (on-camera): Circle K and Bitcoin Depot declined to be interviewed on camera for our story. Circle K did send us a statement saying, quote, "As a responsible retailer, we work closely with business partners like Bitcoin Depot to ensure their services consistently meet our standards, regulatory requirements and customers' needs and expectations."
Bitcoin Depot said, quote, "We provide our retail partners with clear information about the safeguards built into our kiosks, like scam warnings" and that, quote, "unfortunately, bad actors attempt to misuse many types of financial self-service terminals." "This issue," the company adds, "is not unique to any one retailer."
Kyung Lah, CNN, Los Angeles.
COOPER: Up next, my 60 minutes report on painter Amy Sherald, best known perhaps for her portrait of former first lady Michelle Obama. Her remarkable paintings, portraits are often compared to some of the great American realists of all time. What she told me about her rise to fame and why she pulled out of a big exhibition at the Smithsonian.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:39:06]
COOPER: When Amy Sherald was selected to paint the official portrait of Michelle Obama eight years ago, many people in the art world didn't know who she was. They certainly do now.
At 52, she's become one of America's most celebrated painters. She's had two major museum retrospectives this year and was supposed to have a third in the fall open up at the Smithsonian's National Portrait Gallery. But Sherald canceled it. Concerned, she says, that museum officials already under pressure from the Trump administration were going to try and censor a painting. The controversy made headlines, but Sherald has faced much bigger challenges than that. Like many of the people she paints, Amy Sherald has found a way to make her way. I sat down with her for CBS's 60 Minutes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): In Amy Sherald's paintings, her subjects, black Americans, stare silently straight out from the canvas. There's something in their eyes that draws you in, something knowing in their gaze. They appear unapologetic, unafraid, posed against monochromatic backgrounds or in scenes as bright and bold as they are.
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In this painting, a farmer leans atop an impossibly pristine John Deere tractor, surrounded by blue sky and green grass.
COOPER: In so many of your paintings, the subject is looking out at the viewer.
AMY SHERALD, PAINTER: I think that's important. I don't think these portraits are confrontational, but they are present and they do want you to sit with them and have an exchange. They have jobs. They're doing their jobs, you know? They're being beautiful. They're being colorful, but they also have work to do in the world.
COOPER: And they're doing that work in your painting.
SHERALD: By standing there and being present and looking at you and meeting your gaze, that's the work. They don't have to say anything. But every time you look at that portrait, something is happening inside of you.
COOPER (voice-over): Amy Sherald's work hangs in the most prestigious museums in America and in the rooms of major collectors and some smaller ones, including me. This summer, she gave us a private tour of her show, "American Sublime," while I was at the Whitney Museum of American Art in New York, home to some of the greatest artists of the 20th and 21st centuries.
Sherald has been dreaming of having a show here for years.
SHERALD: I would sit in my studio every day and I would meditate and visualize myself in this space.
COOPER: How does it compare to the fantasy?
SHERALD: It's exactly like it.
COOPER: Is it?
SHERALD: Yes, it's perfect.
COOPER (voice-over): Her paintings are portraits, but not in the traditional sense. The people in them are real, but their names are rarely used. She's cast them in a visual story all her own.
SHERALD: The process starts with a photograph. After I randomly come across some person that I'd like to say, like, my energy recognizes their energy or there's something there, right?
And just kind of hold it like you're --
They come to the studio and either I already have a vision in my head of what I want to create or they are the walking vision of what I want to make, and I photograph them.
COOPER (voice-over): She's used friends, models, dancers, strangers she's seen on the street. The clothes they wear are often thrift store finds. Sherald has racks of them in her studio.
SHERALD: I've had this for probably five years, just waiting for the right person.
COOPER (voice-over): There were only two paintings in Sherald's show of people whose names were used. This is her portrait of a very alive Breonna Taylor, painted after she was shot to death by police in 2020 in a botched raid on her apartment.
And this is Sherald's most famous work, the former first lady titled "Michelle LaVaughn Robinson Obama." Unveiled in 2018, it made headlines around the world.
COOPER: Did you know how important this was going to be for your career?
SHERALD: Yes.
COOPER: Did you think about that?
SHERALD: I think in the moment, I wasn't thinking about that because if I did, I probably would have just freaked out, you know? I just stayed out of my head and stayed in the painting.
COOPER: What stands out to you?
SHERALD: When I look at it now?
COOPER: Yes.
SHERALD: The dress. Like, I'm deeply in love with this dress. Just the red, the pink, the yellow, and then the black and gray. I wanted the dress to also have some kind of symbolism and almost be a painting in and of itself.
COOPER (voice-over): Before coming to the Whitney, "American Sublime" was at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art. Sarah Roberts was the show's curator.
COOPER: I wasn't sure we could do Amy Sherald for 60 Minutes because I'm not sure that cameras really capture the work. It's a very different experience to see it in person. There's a luminescent quality --
SARAH ROBERTS: Yes.
COOPER: -- to it.
ROBERTS: There's a quality to the color that is impossible to catch on camera. They have a majesty and a tactility when you see them in person that they lose in reproduction.
COOPER: How does she do that?
ROBERTS: She's an incredible painter. I mean, just the --
COOPER: That's what it comes down to --
ROBERTS: -- technical skill.
COOPER (voice-over): Sherald's style of painting is called American Realism.
ROBERTS: It's a way of depicting the ordinary in American life. It has meant slightly different things to the different painters it's been applied to. And she is creating images that say something about America right now.
Ideas of freedom, ideas of individualism, freedom of expression, and a lot of kind of Americana ideas. You know, there's the cowboy and the beauty queen and the white picket fence. She's reimagining them and redeploying them to make sure that that idea of America includes everyone.
COOPER: Everybody has a seat at the table.
ROBERTS: A place on a museum wall.
COOPER (voice-over): It was this painting on a museum wall that Amy Sherald says changed her life. She saw it on a class trip to the City Art Museum in Columbus, Georgia when she was a teenager. It was painted by an American artist named Bo Bartlett.
SHERALD: There was a figure in it that was an image of a black man. And I realized in that moment that I had never seen a black person in a painting before.
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COOPER: In any painting you had not seen a black person.
SHERALD: In any painting.
COOPER: What did you think?
SHERALD: I thought, I want to do this too.
COOPER: You knew in that moment you thought that --
SHERALD: 100 percent.
COOPER: -- I want to do this?
SHERALD: 100 percent. It turned on the light.
COOPER (voice-over): Her parents, Amos and Geraldine Sherald, hoped she'd be a doctor. But in college she broke the news to them she was going to devote her life to art. She spent more than a decade painting by day and waiting tables at night.
COOPER: Did you ever think this is not going to work out?
SHERALD: Yes. But I couldn't give up. Like I always say, the world is full of quitters. And most people don't want the discomfort. And most people don't want the risk. So, if I kept at it, then eventually something would have to happen.
COOPER (voice-over): What happened was not what she expected. Sherald, an avid runner, was training for a triathlon in 2004 when she was diagnosed with a rare heart condition.
SHERALD: My doctor said, you're lucky to be alive. He basically said, like, don't do anything to get your heart rate up because you could have a tachycardic episode and you could die.
COOPER (voice-over): She nearly did eight years later. She collapsed in a drugstore and spent months in the hospital before receiving a heart transplant. She was 39 years old.
The donor was a young woman named Kristin Lin Smith.
COOPER: Does it feel different to have somebody else's heart?
SHERALD: It doesn't anymore, but it does, I'd say, for like the first five years.
COOPER: Wow. For five years?
SHERALD: Yes. You think about it a lot. I have moments where I think of her and usually -- when I'm doing something that I wouldn't have been able to do. So like whenever that happens, I have on my Instagram account, I hashtag it "adventures of Kristin and Amy" so that I can mark all the big moments and include her in those moments. And when I sign my name, I put a little heart on the end for her.
COOPER: So she lives in all your paintings?
SHERALD: She does. Yes.
COOPER (voice-over): Amy Sherald's studio is in this warehouse in New Jersey. She makes about a half dozen new paintings here a year. In a closet, there's a wall full of paints in colors she's mixed herself.
SHERALD: This is the grayscale that I paint from when I'm doing the skin. COOPER (voice-over): Skin color in her portraits is something Sherald has given a lot of thought to. If you hadn't noticed, she doesn't use brown or black. She paints her subject's skin in shades of gray.
SHERALD: Right now we're in the mid-tone phase where I'm still shaping the face.
COOPER (voice-over): At first, she says she just liked the way the gray looked. It reminded her of old family photographs she grew up with. This one is of her maternal grandmother.
COOPER: You want somebody to see the humanity in your subject?
SHERALD: I think that's where it starts. That's why I chose to use the grayscale instead of brown skin. I think that it offers the viewer an opportunity to pause and consider something else before we get to that.
COOPER: If they had brown skin in your painting, would that be the first thing that people noticed?
SHERALD: I think so. I mean, I think we still look at each other through our phenotypes anyway.
COOPER: Phenotypes is what?
SHERALD: Phenotypes are your eyes, your nose, your lips. Like, you know, you can look at somebody and say, like, oh, this person's probably Caucasian and this person is probably not Caucasian, you know? But they look black. I can't take blackness away from them. But the lack of color allows for a different entry point.
COOPER: When did you realize that?
SHERALD: When I became afraid to paint brown people, because I was afraid that the work would be marginalized and not be able to be in conversation with other artists. Just it'd be put in the black corner.
COOPER (voice-over): That certainly seems unlikely now. At auctions, her paintings have sold for as much as $4 million and are often compared to work by the masters of American Realism, Edward Hopper, Andrew Wyeth, even Norman Rockwell.
COOPER: Does that make sense to you in any way?
SHERALD: It's technically what I wanted as a black woman, artist, American, for people to be like, "Yes, Amy Sherald, Norman Rockwell, Edward Hopper." Like, I'm in the room with the guys. And so I think I'm OK with it. Yes, I think I'm OK with it.
COOPER: Not a bad room to be in.
SHERALD: No. Yes.
COOPER (voice-over): Before we left her studio, Sherald showed us this model made in preparation for the now-canceled exhibition of "American Sublime" at the Smithsonian's National Portrait Gallery.
SHERALD: You get to see how it flows. And then what kind of story is telling as the viewer walks through.
COOPER (voice-over): She told us she backed out of the show in July after learning Smithsonian officials were concerned about this painting of a trans person posing as the Statue of Liberty, and wanted to display it alongside a video they said would, in their words, "contextualize the piece."
[20:50:06]
The Trump administration had for months been criticizing the Smithsonian as being too woke, and promised to review its exhibitions. When Sherald canceled, the White House applauded, calling the painting, quote, "divisive and ideological."
SHERALD: There were conversations about the work being censored. The show is "American Sublime." It was a whole narrative. And a trans woman is a part of that narrative for me. Any kind of contextualization around the work would have been unacceptable and it would have deviated from how the work was originally conceived. And because of that, I felt like my only choice was to pull out.
COOPER: Do you see your work as political?
SHERALD: Today, I do. I don't think that it's in its true nature from where it comes from inside of me political, but it lives in the world and therefore can be art on Monday and political on Tuesday, you know? It's like the pinnacle for me.
COOPER (voice-over): Sherald's paintings won't be hidden away for long. After she canceled the show in Washington, the Baltimore Museum of Art offered to exhibit "American Sublime." The show opens there November 2nd.
COOPER: Do you consider the work patriotic?
SHERALD: Yes. I don't think there's anybody more patriotic than a Black person.
COOPER: How so? I mean, we've been here since the inception of this idea of what American is. We are deeply ingrained in the fabric of this country. This country would not be if it was not for us. So I have to claim that patriotism. Otherwise, I'm just handing it over to somebody to give me the definition of what it means to be American. But I know what the definition of what it means to be American is, and I'm the definition of an American.
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COOPER: Coming up, my conversation with my friend Andy Cohen about New Year's Eve. It's our ninth year hosting together. We've talked about some of our favorite moments from over the years.
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COOPER: We're getting towards the end of the year. And for me, that, of course, means gearing up for yet another New Year's Eve in Times Square with my friend Andy Cohen. This will be our ninth year hosting together, and we recently sat down at the Corner Bistro here in New York, where we often end up, and which has probably the best burgers in town, to talk about some of our favorite moments from years past, and to look ahead to this year's program.
Here's just part of that conversation.
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ANDY COHEN, TV PERSONALITY: We can't talk about New Year's Eve without talking about your many, many occasions of being in a puddle of giggles.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Three, two.
COHEN: -- which is sphere in Las Vegas to see Dennis Rodman (ph). This is --
COOPER: OK.
COHEN: Someone videoed me dancing in a concert.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, I don't know how much more clear I can be about the objective of this place.
COHEN: Have you gotten high at a breast (ph)?
COOPER: Oh my God.
COHEN: And I say to people, my job is to make you laugh on New Year's because people love to hear you laugh. And I think God bless you for the work you do all year long. You're keeping them honest right here on CNN. And this is your time and all of our time to let loose and enjoy.
But, man, if you had some moments, you know, a few stick out. Snoop Dogg, we played --
COOPER: Snoop Dogg was a better off (ph).
COHEN: -- a game where --
COOPER: Yes.
COHEN: -- I asked him if he had gotten high in certain places.
COOPER: Yes. Yes, yes, yes.
COHEN: Now, some of these games are classic Watch What Happens Live games, but I think that Anderson just sometimes can't believe --
COOPER: I can't believe.
COHEN: -- we we're playing them for real.
COOPER: I cannot. I can't believe that people are answering these questions.
COHEN: Right, yes. And Snoop Dogg had you.
COOPER: He was amazing. Well, the -- there was one about, like, have you ever been high on CNN?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
COHEN: Have you gotten high on CNN?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, but in front of the CNN building on Sunset Boulevard, I have.
COOPER: I just thought it was the funniest thing. Because if you know that building --
COHEN: Yes.
COOPER: -- it's just so like --
COHEN: Well, you know he was out there smoking before going on Larry King Live or something. I mean, there's no question about it. The thing that I think we loved the most was John Mayer at the Cat Cafe.
COOPER: I mean, the Cat Cafe will go down in our personal history.
COHEN: In New Year's Eve lure (ph), yes. It absolutely will. And this was one of those great examples of Anderson. I think it's better --
COOPER: I was skeptical.
COHEN: Well, no, you were skeptical but also, sometimes I think it's better to prep you the least --
COOPER: Yes.
COHEN: -- for these things.
COOPER: Yes.
COHEN: And I say, it's going to be great like --
COOPER: Right.
COHEN: -- I'd see --
COOPER: All I knew was he was at a cafe in --
COHEN: Right.
COOPER: -- Tokyo. COHEN: So the visual of John, first of all, sitting there at the bar with all these cats, and of course, this cat's anus famously was right in front of the camera --
COOPER: Well also their tails.
COHEN: All their tails. It was so funny.
COOPER: Yes.
COHEN: And I have to give it to John, who was really deadpan the entire time. And part of, I think, the comedy was just how --
COOPER: Yes, yes.
COHEN: -- absolutely --
COOPER: He was --
COHEN: -- straight he was playing it.
COOPER: Yes.
COHEN: And you, of course, were just --
COOPER: Well, also how like he could hear me -- he couldn't see either of us --
COHEN: Yes.
COOPER: -- but he could hear that I had completely lost it.
COHEN: Yes.
COOPER: And played it perfectly.
COHEN: Yes.
COOPER: Yes.
COHEN: Just the shot of the cat's ass in your face is making him delirious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: You can watch our entire very wide-ranging conversation right now at CNN.com/nyelive.
The news continues right here on CNN.
