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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Air Canada Plane Colliding With Fire Truck; Two Pilots Killed And 40 Passengers Hurt In Runway Collision At LaGuardia Airport; Trump Delays Strikes On Iran's Energy Sites After "Productive Talks"; Sources: Multiple Countries Working To Mediate Deal Between U.S. & Iran; Top Iranian Official Says War Will Continue; Remembering Robert Mueller. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired March 23, 2026 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTI NOEM, OUTGOING U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Why do I love these wide-open spaces? They remind me of why our forefathers came here, not just for its beauty, but for the freedom only America provides.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: The invoices we obtained also showing more than $100,000.00 in labor costs for the strategy group which is a firm led by the husband of Noem's former top spokesperson. An additional $60,000.00 signing bonus just to produce the ad and another $50,000.00 for videography, photography and production, stunning. Noem's last day at DHS will be March 31st. Thanks for joining us. Anderson starts now.
[20:00:42]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening thanks for joining us, two big stories tonight from our newsroom. In the last hour, the NTSB updated reporters on this deadly crash late last night at New York's LaGuardia Airport, which left two pilots dead, more than 40 others hurt, and a lot of questions.
Also tonight, the war, the President backing away from his threat to obliterate Iranian power plants, claiming there had been, "major points of agreement" in new talks with Tehran. Tehran, however, says there are no talks directly with the U.S.
We begin, though, with the LaGuardia crash and the chain of events that put an airport fire truck onto a runway directly into the path of a landing airliner with 76 people on board. I want to show you video of the crash.
This is footage from an airport security camera caught the impact between Air Canada Express 8646, from Montreal with port authority truck one just after 11:37 last night happened about 2,500 feet down LaGuardia 7,000-foot-long runway four, meaning the CRJ-900 regional jet was still traveling at considerable speed, likely more than 100 miles an hour. The impact came just about 20 seconds after an air traffic controller
had cleared truck one to cross the runway, then quickly tried to reverse his instructions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FIRE TRUCK: Truck one and company LaGuardia tower?
TOWER: Truck one and company.
FIRE TRUCK: Truck one and company, LaGuardia tower requesting to cross four at Delta.
TOWER: Truck one and company cross four at Delta.
FIRE TRUCK: Truck a truck one and company four Delta.
TOWER: Frontier 4195, just stop there please. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop truck one, stop, stop, stop, truck one stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Among the many questions tonight, did truck one's driver initially confused the order to stop as being directed toward Frontier 4195. Also, why was the truck cleared to cross an active runway with landing traffic less than a mile out? And were controllers distracted from also handling an emergency aircraft, United Flight 2384. That flight was on the other side of the field, having just aborted its takeoff and was reporting fumes in the cabin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATC: United 2384, the ramp doesn't have a gate for you yet, but I'm trying to get in touch with the Port Authority to see if they have something".
UNITED 2384: Copy.
ATC: And the fire trucks are over there. They're going to bring a -- truck just in case you guys do want to evacuate. Let me know if you do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, truck one would be cleared to cross one way for just 22 seconds later. Flight 8646 impact killed both pilots likely instantaneously shearing the plane's nose off. The force ejected a flight attendant and the seat she was strapped into clear of the plane. Her name is Solange Tremblay. Her daughter says she suffered multiple fractures but is expected to recover.
For many others, the recovery may be far more complicated. ATC audio captures the immediate and heartbreaking reaction as the reality of what had just happened sinks in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) FRONTIER PILOT: That wasn't good to watch.
AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL: Yes, I know. I tried to reach out to them. We were dealing with an emergency earlier. I messed up.
FRONTIER PILOT: No, man, you did the best you could.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Again, that is the immediate reaction in the moment, the actual determination. Of course, what will likely be many factors in this accident will take many months to reach. Late today, the NTSB spoke to reporters. CNN Shimon Prokupecz was at the press conference. He joins us now. So, Shimon, what are authorities at this point saying?
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly, Anderson, a lot of the focus is on those air traffic controllers and what was going on inside the tower here at LaGuardia Airport.
The NTSB tonight saying that they are still gathering all of the data as they try to piece together exactly what happened here.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PROKUPECZ (voice over): New video shows the moment of a deadly collision between an Air Canada plane and a fire truck at LaGuardia Airport, 10 seconds after giving the truck permission to cross the runway, the air traffic controller frantically warns it to wait.
TOWER: Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Stop, stop truck one, stop.
PROKUPECZ (voice over): But it was too late to stop the collision that killed two pilots and injured dozens.
TOWER: Jazz 646, I see you collided with the Vehicle just hold position. I know you can't move. Vehicles are responding to you now.
PROKUPECZ (voice over): The Air Canada plane was going 104 miles an hour when it hit the truck. Passenger Rebecca Liquori described the moments just before the crash.
REBECCA LIQUORI, AIR CANADA PASSENGER: You heard the pilot try to brake like he was trying to prevent the collision that occurred. And as you heard the brake, you just -- a couple seconds later, it was just a very loud boom and everybody just jolted out of their seats. People hit their heads. People were bleeding.
[20:05:31]
PROKUPECZ (voice over): Forty-one passengers and two crew members went to the hospital. The Port Authority said 32 people have already been released. Many ended up sliding off the plane's wing to exit safely. One of the flight attendants was found alive outside the plane, still strapped to her seat, according to a law enforcement official.
LIQUORI: It was a very harrowing scene. We were all emotional and it was just very scary.
PROKUPECZ (voice over): Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy tried to reassure travelers at a news conference at LaGuardia on Monday.
SEAN DUFFY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: It's incredibly sad. It's troubling, and I just want to let America know that we are working our hearts out to make sure that when people travel, whether by rail or car or by air, that they travel safely.
PROKUPECZ (voice over): The collision shut down New York City's second largest airport for more than 14 hours, leading to hundreds of canceled flights. This comes as there's already been significant travel disruptions and delays resulting from the governments partial shutdown.
GOV. KATHY HOCHUL (D-NY): Let's acknowledge the tremendous stress, particularly in recent days, that our airline workers are under. And as we come through here, know that this is an ecosystem which is not self-sustaining.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So, Shimon, what else have you learned about the two pilots who were killed?
PROKUPECZ: So, they have now been named. One of them, his name is Antoine Forest, he's 30 years old. And then the other pilot is MacKenzie Gunther. But we don't know much more about them at this point, just their names. They have been both described as young pilots. Two men who love to fly and certainly will now, you know, officials say it's just such a sad time and will not be able to go home to their families.
It's really tough times here and certainly for many of the victims here and the people who were aboard that, who were aboard the plane who really just took action to try and save each other to get off that plane.
COOPER: Yes, Shimon, appreciate it. Thanks very much.
My next guest was one of the passengers on the flight, took this video of himself and others on the tarmac moments after the crash. He said that immediately after impact, several passengers quickly stepped up to help the injured form lines inside the plane to safely evacuate out the emergency doors. I'm joined now by Jack Kabot.
Jack, thanks so much for being with us. First of all, how are you doing?
JACK KABOT, AIR CANADA PASSENGER: I've had better days. In all honesty, I'm a little shaken up by all this, but I'm really, I feel grateful to be alive.
COOPER: You were seated where?
KABOT: I was in seat 18-A, which was pretty much by the wing on the left side.
COOPER: Okay, right by an exit row.
KABOT: Yes, direct, right in front of the exit row, yes.
COOPER: Okay, so when did you realize something -- did you -- that passenger was talking about hearing the brakes, did you hear that?
KABOT: Yes, I mean, we came in really hard. I definitely remember that. Like it was it was an uneasy sense when we landed immediately because I felt like the pilots had just absolutely tried to slow the plane down as much as they possibly could.
COOPER: Were there any kind of -- there were no announcements or anything?
KABOT: As we came in, they said, you know, prepare for landing. And there was some talk about turbulence, but there was no announcement when we were about to hit the truck.
COOPER: There was no brace for impact or anything like that?
KABOT: Nothing like that.
COOPER: When did you -- did you realize, I mean, did you feel the impact? Did you hear it?
KABOT: Yes, absolutely. Everybody got completely jolted. I mean, we all -- everybody just like banged something. I mean, nobody's really expecting to hit a truck at that moment. They're always just like kind of sitting a little bit more relaxed back in their seat. And so, come the moment of impact, a lot of people hit their head. There was blood, there was screaming. It was a really harrowing moment.
COOPER: Did the plane and if any of this, you don't want to talk about this completely, fine. But did the plane continue, and was it a sudden halt or did it go --
KABOT: No, no, it actually continued to slide for a bit longer, like it was the original bang and complete like panic for everybody. But then it was also like this moment when you realize the plane lost control of where it was going. And then the only question was like, will I live? Will I see my loved ones again?
COOPER: You had that thought.
KABOT: Yes.
COOPER: Did you hit any--did you hit the seat or anything in front of you?
KABOT: Yes, I have a little bruise.
COOPER: Is that little bruise up there?
KABOT: Yes.
COOPER: What happened then? Were there -- I heard other people say there wasn't like an announcement. So, passengers took it upon themselves to --
[20:10:02]
KABOT: Yes, you know, I don't think there was really a chain of command. I mean, the, the pilots didn't make it. And so, one of the passengers, I think her name was Rebecca. She was like right by the passenger aisle. And she kind of took a little initiative and she helped get the door open and we all kind of jumped right on out. There were a few tarmac people already out there and we jumped on the wing and jumped down, and everyone was kind of helping each other.
There's people helping with holding people's hands. There's people helping with people's luggage. And there was this kind of like really strong sense of like, we're a community and we're going to get through this one together.
COOPER: And you were out on the tarmac for a while.
KABOT: Yes, we were out on the tarmac for about 30 to40 minutes before any bus came pick up. I don't think they were there like a ready to go protocol really for them, they kind of just had a plane crash in. Their first thought was, let's get ambulances, let's get medics. And then after that, they kind of saw us and they brought some --
COOPER: Did you realize once you were on the tarmac, what had happened to the front of the plane?
KABOT: Yes, yes, that was -- so, I was one of the earlier people out. And as I was out, we're all helping each other out a little bit. The front of the plane actually began to lift off like the nose of the plane was originally buried in the ground. And then the plane just started making this crashing sound. And the front of the plane just lifted up about 20ft in the air to the picture that we see now.
COOPER: Wow. Yes, but you said you mentioned a little and we we're talking beforehand. You said there was something kind of beautiful that happened among the passengers, that there was this sense of, like being together.
KABOT: Yes, you know, we were all out there together. There was there was people sobbing. There was people bleeding. But I mean, people were sharing coats. People were helping each other with their blood. I mean, with the blood coming off. And there was definitely like a lot of people looking out for each other in this moment.
COOPER: I really appreciate your time, you taking the time to talk to us about it. I'm so sorry for what you and the other passengers went through.
KABOT: Yes, thanks for coming here. COOPER: I wish you the best, thanks. Jack Kabot.
I want to play a little bit more from the air traffic control audio that took place approximately 90 seconds before the crash. You can hear controllers discussing how to deal with the United Plane, which aborted its takeoff after having an emergency over a strange odor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATC 1: Hey, it's -- again, LaGuardia, now that united says he needs a gate, but now he's declaring an emergency. But the ramp doesn't have a gate for him. Yes, they're now --
ATC 2: ...we can get a stair truck if you need them to get off the plane.
ATC 1: Okay. Yes, yes, do that just in case they want to come off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Late tonight, a new CNN review of government records for LaGuardia Airport going back two years. The key points pilots raised concerns about miscommunication, air traffic control missteps and other hazards. Please do something a pilot wrote last summer in one of at least a dozen reports about LaGuardia, citing a close call when air traffic controllers failed to provide appropriate guidance about multiple nearby aircraft.
Joining me now, is CNN aviation correspondent Pete Muntean, who's also a pilot, and also Chris Gallant, former air traffic controller at JFK Airport. He's also a Black Hawk helicopter pilot, serves in the Army National Guard and is running for Congress in New York. Thanks both for being with us.
So, Pete, at this point, what happens in the investigation?
PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: The NTSB is now on the scene. They have planted the flag. Now they need to dig into the data. Here's the good news. They've recovered the cockpit voice recorder. They actually cut a hole in the airplane to pull it out today and drove it to their lab at L'enfant Plaza in D.C. to begin deciphering the data on there.
They've also recovered the flight data recorder, and the FAA is going to do an analysis of what's called ASDE-X. It's a surface collision warning system on the ground at airports, specifically to avoid situations just like the one that played out. And the FAA is going through that data in its lab at its tech center in Atlantic City, giving a report to the NTSB. And then investigators will be able to go through it to see if there was any warning that this collision in the making was about to happen. There are some really, really key pieces of data here.
And also, it bears mentioning that the video that we have seen surfaced, the surveillance video is so key, and investigators will be able to go through that frame by frame to really figure out if there was any sort of warning here. If the firefighting crew saw this impending collision playing out, and if the pilots saw this playing out. It does seem, though, by looking at the video, that they really had no time to react and did not see this coming at all.
COOPER: Chris, you were an air traffic controller at JFK. When you hear the audio, what stands out to you?
CHRIS GALLANT, FORMER AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER: Well, a lot of its the reaction. You know, the pilot had originally or I'm sorry, the controller had originally given, you know, information across. And then he was trying to reach back out to that vehicle to stop.
One of the things that I didn't hear necessarily normally, like when the ASDE-X does go off that we were talking about, normally, there's a lot of audio that goes on in the tower cab. It's loud, you can't miss it. So, I'm curious to see what those findings are to see whether that ASDE-X was maybe operable or not. Some other factors that that device has is that on the runway surface itself, there's actually lights that will indicate if an aircraft is on final and it will tell the people who are requesting to cross the runway that, you know, maybe use a bit more caution or to look prior to crossing such.
[20:15:16]
COOPER: I know you have, I mean, your friends who are still air traffic controllers. What are they telling you about with the way how things are now, just the stresses on the system?
GALLANT: So, I mean, I actually talked to a few controllers at LaGuardia today and some of my friends at Kennedy as well. This is a situation like this is tragic and it is stressful. It adds stress and it hurts all of us and it hurts the aviation community as a whole. NATCA, National Air Traffic Controllers Association, the FAA, both work hand in hand together to have the safest airspace system in the world. Traveling by airline is still the safest method of travel by far. And you know, I would still get on an airplane tomorrow and still feel very safe doing so.
But something like this needs to be investigated, needs to be thoroughly investigated. And that's what the NTSB is going to do. They're going to thoroughly investigate all aspects of this because it's not just one thing that causes an accident. It's a multitude of factors that kind of -- is what causes that.
COOPER: I mean, Pete, it certainly comes at a time when we're seeing just chaos in airports around the country.
MUNTEAN: This is kind of symptomatic of an aviation system that's really bursting at the seams. And while the TSA issues and the lack of funding for TSA workers is not necessarily connected, we know that its already having an impact on aviation as a whole.
I was on a commercial flight yesterday. There were plenty of people who missed their flights, what was supposed to be a full flight, because they simply could not get through security at Houston, and we know that it's impacted the NTSB's work here and we heard from NTSB Chair Homendy saying --
COOPER: Right, they can't even get their people.
MUNTEAN: --to beg to get their air traffic control specialist, key investigator on this, by the way, ATC is going to be a huge through line in this investigation to get her through security after she was waiting there for three hours.
And then you have to also consider the fact that there was a collision on the ground involving two planes at LaGuardia taxing back on October 1st. There was the mid-air collision at Reagan National Airport back last January 29th, 2025, when 67 people were killed. And this new reporting that we have coming out of anonymous reports by pilots essentially sounding the warning call, saying that they felt like LaGuardia was so crowded, so at capacity, they thought it could be the next DCA. They thought it could be the next collision at Reagan National Airport.
So, there's some really, really key telltales here. And I have to tell you, I've been covering near collisions for years here at CNN. And it was very interesting that we were reporting on collisions that did not happen. Now, we're reporting on collisions that are happening. It's a very bad --
COOPER: Yes, Chris, do you think there's something about LaGuardia or just this is just a problem in a lot of places.
GALLANT: The National Airspace System as a whole is under stress. I mean, we look at our last government shutdown that actually did affect air traffic. It was two months or a month, a little over a month where air traffic controllers weren't receiving any money. A lot of the controllers decided to quit. It was the largest number of controllers that were quitting per day. I think Sean Duffy had even said 15 to 20 per day over the normal two to three.
When I first got in to become an air traffic controller, they were at their lowest staffing levels then, and they've just never improved. So, it's a serious issue that needs to be addressed. They are under stress and they are working a lot of hours. They're working six days a week --
COOPER: Stress levels --
GALLANT: -- ten-hour days, yes. So, it's a problem and it needs to get addressed.
COOPER: Chris Gallant, appreciate it, Pete Muntean as well. Thank you.
Ahead tonight, the latest on the war, including the President's weekend threat to obliterate Iranian power plants. Then the reversal of that, saying that there's progress in talks with Iran, which Iran says they are not having.
Next, where the fighting now stands after a weekend and a day of more punishing allied airstrikes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:23:00]
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
COOPER: That was the scene this weekend in Dimona, Israel, an incoming Iranian ballistic missile leveling a one-story building, 30 people were taken to a hospital, according to Israels emergency response service. They said now, also now, take a look at this, an Israeli strike on a bridge in Southern Lebanon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(VIDEO OF ISRAELI STRIKE ON A BRIDGE IN SOUTHERN LEBANON.)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The bridge was in the town of Tyre. Israel's defense minister said that Hezbollah, and which is the Iranian backed militia, was using it to move fighters and weapons into the southern part of the country. This video was released today by U.S. Central Command, saying it showed its forces continue to aggressively strike Iranian military targets with precision munitions, those were their words.
Over the weekend, President Trump suddenly issued an ultimatum on social media, threatening Iran with a deadline that would have passed just about 30 minutes ago. Here's what he posted on Saturday at 7:44 P.M. "If Iran doesn't fully open without threat, the Strait of Hormuz within 48 hours from this exact point in time, the United States of America will hit and obliterate their various power plants, starting with the biggest one first".
Iran's military responded on Sunday that if his threats regarding Iran's power plants are carried out, the Strait of Hormuz will be completely closed and that all Israeli energy and communications infrastructure will be targeted, as well as, "similar companies in the region with U.S. shareholders.
Then this morning, the President posted this, "I am pleased to report that the United States of America and the country of Iran have had over the last two days very good and productive conversations regarding a complete and total resolution of our hostilities in the Middle East".
He went on to say, "I have instructed the Department of War to postpone any and all military strikes against Iranian power plants and energy infrastructure for a five-day period, subject to the success of the ongoing meetings and discussions".
For its part, Iran denied such talks had happened, and the Speaker of Iran's parliament even borrowed a page from the Presidents own playbook, calling it fake news. This was President Trump's response.
[20:25:10]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REPORTER: Mr. President, Iran's Foreign Ministry says you're not
telling the truth when it comes to productive conversations to end the war.
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, they're going to have to get themselves better public relations people. We have had very, very strong talks. We'll see where they lead. We have major points of agreement. I would say almost all points of agreement, perhaps that hasn't been conveyed. The communication, as you know, has been blown to pieces. They're unable to talk to each other. But we've had very strong talks. Mr. Witkoff and Mr. Kushner had them, they went -- I would say perfectly.
I would say that if they carry through with that, it will end that that problem, that conflict. We're doing a five-day period. We'll see how that goes and if it goes well, we're going to end up with settling this, otherwise, we'll just keep bombing our little hearts out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: CNN is now reporting that multiple countries are actively working to mediate a deal between the U.S. and Iran, as the impacts of the war reverberate across the world. That's according to five sources familiar with the matter.
For more on that, I'm joined by CNN senior White House correspondent Kristen Holmes. So, is it clear how and why President Trump went from threatening attacks on Iranian power plants, which traditionally are viewed as kind of not regular targets because they often have civilian use to being bullish on supposed negotiations?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, a couple of things that we know, Anderson, as you just mentioned, the Gulf allies had told the United States that any kind of targeting of civilian power sites could lead to disastrous escalation when it came to Iran. I will also note that this announcement that President Trump made came two hours before the U.S. markets opened, something he watches very closely and caused those markets to rally Wall Street.
So those are the things were keeping in mind here. Now, there are still a lot of questions as to what these talks actually look like. You have, on the one hand, Iran saying that they're not involved in any kind of communications. And President Trump won't say who it is that the United States is talking to, who Witkoff or Kushner is having these conversations with, only to say that it was not the new Supreme Leader, but somebody they believe to be in charge.
However, one proposal has a meeting later this week, potentially even including Vice President J.D. Vance, who up until now has not really been actively involved in any of these negotiations, though he did spend today on the phone with Prime Minister Netanyahu of Israel talking about a potential Iran agreement.
One thing to note, we just heard President Trump talking about this was this 15-point proposal. President Trump called it points of agreement. Our sources have said this was more of a proposal that the United States had sent to Iran through Pakistan, of expectations. It is unclear to any of the sources that we spoke to, whether or not they had actually agreed to anything on this proposal.
In fact, one source saying that it would be nearly impossible for Iran to agree to these 15 points. Another source saying that these this proposal looked an awful lot like what we saw months ago, when these talks kind of fell off between the United States and Iran.
COOPER: Kristen, thanks very much, Kristen Holmes.
I want to get perspective now from Ambassador Wendy Sherman. She's the former Deputy Secretary of State and led the team that negotiated the 2015 nuclear deal with Iran. And also, Brett McGurk, who served as a senior advisor for the last four Presidents and is now our CNN global affairs analyst.
Ambassador Sherman, what do you make of the conflicting reports coming out of Tehran and Washington about whether there has been any back- channeling going on? I don't know if there's quibbling over direct ones or through intermediaries. What do you think is likely going on?
WENDY SHERMAN, FORMER DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I have no doubt that there are a number of countries, Pakistan being one of them, Egypt, Turkey, others that are trying to knit together some kind of an agreement to have a negotiation. Pakistan represents the interests of Iran in Washington, D.C., just as Switzerland represents us in Tehran, though they've been kicked out recently.
But at any rate, I'm sure there have been discussions, but the President clearly thinks you do negotiations by press release or by tweet. That's not how negotiations are done. They can't be done as a drive by. This is very serious, this is war. I do hope that there are talks that take place. I don't think there's any chance at all that 15-points of agreement have come to pass at this point. The very most one could get in five days are very, very broad parameters.
This is a highly technical negotiation and one of the things we've seen time and time again is that this administration doesn't really recognize expertise or respect expertise.
[20:30:04]
And they're going to need some people at the table, even if it's Vice President Vance, who actually know what they're talking about.
COOPER: Brett, I mean, how do you interpret this five-day delay to what President Trump announced on his threat to attack power plants? And do you think that's a real threat?
BRETT MCGURK, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Yes, Anderson, I would love to be proven wrong. Well, I've been saying for the past month or so on your program that there is really no Venezuela model here when it comes to Iran. You're very unlikely to have someone emerge able to do a deal with us, as happened in Venezuela with Delcy Rodriguez. I still hold that assumption. I just do not see a path here. As Wendy said, a lot of intermediaries are coming in. Sometimes when you deal with mediators, Anderson, they will, and Wendy's dealt with this, they want to bring the two sides together. So they'll put a little spin on what they might be hearing from somebody in Iran. So there might be some hope.
We'll see. But bottom line, to get to your point, I don't really see the opening for diplomacy right now. That's just my assessment. And that leads to back to what we were talking about last week in the Strait of Hormuz, because what also is happening this week, as your lead-in to this segment showed, the military campaign is ongoing at a pace. We're moving more forces into the region.
And the President here is also buying some time for that to play out. So by the weekend or so, we might be in position. He might have some more options. But even there, Anderson, that is a very difficult strategic equation, opening up that Strait of Hormuz with military force.
It's not just the military match. It's giving confidence to shippers and everything we've talked about. So we're really in a predicament. And I think this week, buying some time, getting forces into place, seeing if diplomacy can be open. But I still come back to where I've been, Anderson. This has a ways to go.
COOPER: Ambassador, in terms of opening up the Strait, I mean, the -- if it's true that there are all these small vessels that can lay mines, that can attack ships, how -- what confidence can the U.S. have that they can open it up unless there are, I don't know, I mean, what would it require? Would it require actual forces on the ground along, you know, on some island nearby, along the coastal regions? What would it take?
SHERMAN: I think all of the above, Anderson. Clearly, our really superb military has degraded some of the forces along the coast that Iran has put in place. But nonetheless, as you point out, small boats can lay mines. We believe some mines have been laid. It would take quite an effort by the United States.
And it's not an effort that gets done in a day or a week or a month. One would have to continue to be a presence to make sure that the Strait stayed open. So this is very tough.
I think one other thing that's really important for viewers to understand, because this war has been waged in the way it has twice when negotiations were underway, only to be faced with an assault from the United States and from Israel, Iran has become an even more radical, hard, hard line administration.
And any individual, as Brett has pointed out, who might sit down with Americans or through mediators with Americans is going to be tougher, more dug in, and very unlikely to agree to all of the things that the President has said he wants. I agree with Brett. This may be a stall tactic until we get our military in place.
But if that is, in fact, what is going on here, the United States of America has to be in for a very long siege. And the President will not be able to continue to manipulate markets on every Saturday and every Monday morning.
COOPER: Brett, do you agree with that, that this is -- I mean, this is still -- there's no end in sight right now?
MCGURK: I don't see it. So when this started, it was about a four to six-week military campaign. By that estimate, we're in week four. So maybe in a couple of weeks, the military objectives will be met. But no, Anderson, your question to get this straight open, that's going to take a long time.
COOPER: Yes. Brett McGurk, Wendy Sherman, thank you.
U.S. forces still hitting targets, as the President says discussions are underway, which Iran denies publicly. And now sources say multiple countries are working behind the scenes to mediate the deal.
Up next, we'll see what signals America's allies may be looking for.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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[20:38:41]
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Based on preliminary conversations between the United States and Iran over the past two days, I've directed the Department of War to temporarily postpone planned strikes against major energy and electricity targets in Iran. But to determine whether a broader agreement can be reached, we've had very good discussions.
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COOPER: That's what President Trump is saying. But as we've been discussing, Iran denies it, saying the President is claiming that discussions are underway to calm financial markets. Late today, a top Iranian official went further, vowing to continue the war until, quote, "all economic sanctions are lifted and Iran is compensated for the destruction of its property."
Joining us now is Bobby Ghosh, a columnist and geopolitical analyst who has spent years reporting from and on the Middle East. Appreciate you being with us.
First of all, what do you make of this? President Trump saying that there are these negotiations, implying direct negotiations, which Iran says is not happening.
BOBBY GHOSH, COLUMNIST AND GEOPOLITICAL ANALYST: Well, we know that a number of countries that want to play the sort of middleman in negotiations. And it's a question of, I guess, how you describe -- how you qualify negotiations. In the traditional sense, it's people sitting across the table, groups of people with sheaves of paper having serious discussions about technical issues. This President might take a tweet as a sign of negotiation, so you might take a phone call or an answer, sort of noncommittal answer on a text message as a sign of negotiation. So I wouldn't pace too much emphasis on that word negotiations.
[20:40:10]
We know that lots of countries, particularly countries in the region, want negotiations to happen. The international community is willing for it to happen. The pain of this war spreads far and wide. You know, people as far away as Malaysia and Bangladesh and in Latin America are suffering because of the war. They're having to pay more in fuel prices and cost holograms.
So everyone's rooting for there to be negotiations. And I think the President is counting on that sort of global wishful thinking. But in reality, in what you and I would consider to be negotiations in any conventional sense, I don't see that happening yet.
COOPER: You wrote on Substack this really interesting piece. It was -- this is not the Iraq war redux, it's much stupider than that. You spent five years reporting from Iraq, Time magazine's Baghdad bureau chief. How does that inform the way you see this? What lessons -- what -- how do you view that through this lens?
GHOSH: Well, the Iraq war, as we learned some of it in real time and certainly since then was based on a lie, on an exaggeration. But the Bush administration was very serious about it. They put together an enormous effort worldwide, brought together 40 countries in a global coalition, stayed on message on a single message throughout.
It was about WMD and about bringing democracy to the Middle East. And they did not vary from those messages. This war is -- there's so many things that are made up that seem on the fly by the seat of the President's pants, that it's hard to get a sense of what the purpose is, what the end goal looks like.
There's been no communication that's consistent, that explains the theory of the --
COOPER: I mean, over the weekend, he was talking about regime change again, saying --
GHOSH: Yes.
COOPER: -- essentially, well, there is already been regime change because all the people are new. The counterargument to that is, well, a lot of these people may be even harder line --
GHOSH: Yes.
COOPER: -- hardliners compared to those who were there before, which is saying a lot.
GHOSH: Well, it's certainly true that the new group in charge are hardliners. Look at the new supreme leader. We just killed his father and his wife and a child of his. So, you know, and he was already identified as someone even more hardline than his father before.
And if he comes out of this still alive, then he's unlikely to want to come to a negotiated settlement --
COOPER: He's certainly very beholden also to the Revolutionary Guard.
GHOSH: He's absolutely beholden to them. They are the generals are much more in charge of this conflict. They have -- let's not understate the fact that the conventional Iranian military strength has been greatly weakened. Their planes are -- have been blown up. Their ships have been blown up.
But conventional military strength is not been the core of the menace that Iran represents in the region and to the wider world. It's always been about unexpected, asymmetric capabilities. Those drones that do so much damage, sleeper cells all over the world, their proxy militias, the Houthis, Hezbollah and people like that. And these are only the ones we know about.
This is a regime that for 50 years, every day, this regime, the people at the highest levels of this regime have been absolutely convinced that sooner or later America is going to come for them. So they've been preparing for 50 years. They've always known that they were never going to be able to stand up against the greatest military in the world.
And so they've been making plans precisely for that. So to say that we've blown up every one of their ships, those ships are not the real threat. Without any ships, they've still managed to block the Straits of Hormuz and essentially put a chokehold on the global economy.
COOPER: Yes.
GHOSH: That's the nature of the regime we are dealing with. We -- these are very serious people. They're seriously bad people, but they are very serious --
COOPER: And they're fighting for their lives.
GHOSH: They're fighting for their existence. Yes. They know that if they lose this war, their biggest problem will not be American bombs from the air. Their biggest problem will be their own citizens hanging them from lampposts --
COOPER: Yes.
GHOSH: -- in Tehran.
COOPER: Yes.
GHOSH: You know, they have done so much damage to their own country and their own people for so long that there's a lot of resentment built up there. They can't afford to show any weakness.
COOPER: Yes. Bobby Ghosh, thank you so much. Appreciate it.
GHOSH: Anytime.
COOPER: Coming up, President Trump backing off his threat to hit Iran's power plants if the Strait of Hormuz is not reopened. Can that get Iran to the table to reach a deal more on that next?
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[20:48:53]
COOPER: Talking tonight about talks or not, which are happening or not with Iran or not. Also about what it might take to actually end this war.
Joining us now is former JAG Officer and U.S. Army Combat Veteran Margaret Donovan and Retired U.S. Army Colonel Peter Mansoor, fellow at the Mershon Center for International Security Studies at Ohio State University.
Margaret, from the point of view of a JAG officer targeting the power plants of Iran, is that -- are those legitimate targets?
MARGARET DONOVAN, U.S. ARMY COMBAT VETERAN, SERVED IN IRAQ AND SYRIA: So, in general, in a combat environment, civilian infrastructure is not targetable, it's considered protected. And that's everything from residences to more robust infrastructure like power plants.
COOPER: Even if the Revolutionary Guard Corps is operating the plants?
DONOVAN: Except when it loses a civilian entity or a facility could lose its protected status in the instance of it being used for some type of military purpose, or it is going to give the targeting force some type of concrete military advantage by targeting it. However, the justification that I have seen so far, and there may be information that you and I don't have, but the justification that I have seen so far is that the justification for targeting the power plants is because the IRGC controls it.
[20:50:04]
But that alone is not a justification. Indeed, the IRGC controls a lot of the civilian structures in the society and civilian -- parts of civilian society. So that alone would not cause that facility to lose its protected status. It would have to actually be used for a military purpose, or it would have to give us some type of concrete military advantage.
And even if it were to do that, you still have to abide by the law of armed conflict. And the law of armed conflict, the principles underpinning that would tell you that when you target something, you cannot cause unnecessary or catastrophic civilian suffering. And so I would take issue with the strike so far for two reasons.
One, it's unclear from the intelligence that we have that it's actually being used for a military purpose. Maybe it is, right? I don't know. I don't have the intelligence. But two, it's unclear that we would be using it for a military advantage because it seems from the context, and at least on its face, that we are talking about it in order to lower gas prices, which is something sort of distinct from a military advantage. And if we are able to establish and accomplish that goal through negotiations, it kind of tells you that maybe you don't need to put the civilian populace at risk.
COOPER: Colonel, how likely, Colonel, do you think it is that Iran would be willing at this point to even negotiate?
COL. PETER MANSOOR (RET.), U.S. ARMY: I don't think it's likely at all. Look, their control over the Strait of Hormuz is the single piece of leverage that they have. And they're not going to give it up willingly unless they get what they want. And they want the sanctions lifted. They want the United States forces out of the Middle East.
They want to be able to fund their proxy groups around the Middle East. They want a lot of things. And unless they get at least some of them, they are not going to reopen the Strait of Hormuz and give up the single piece of leverage that they control.
COOPER: Also, trust at this point, Margaret. I mean, there certainly wouldn't be much trust from the U.S. to Iran and Iran certainly to the U.S.
DONOVAN: Yes, of course. And so I think that's kind of the problem with establishing a target that it seems like the primary consequences of targeting that type of facility are going to be the civilian population. Maybe not. Maybe we have a way, a method of doing it that is only going to bring us some military advantage.
It's only going to affect a certain part of the IRGC. Then my opinion on this would change. But if we're just leveraging the effect, the catastrophic effect that this might have on a civilian population, to me, that is not an appropriate way to engage in warfare.
COOPER: Colonel, I mean, we previously reported thousands of marine sailors being deployed to the Middle East. In what scenario would you see ground troops being sent into Iran or around the Straits?
MANSOOR: Well, let's look at the numbers here. The two marine expeditionary units have a total of about 5,000 Marines. About half of them may be infantry. That's not really enough to go on to the Iranian mainland and do much. They could do raids, for instance, of drone bases.
But really, I think the most likely use is to seize an island, either Kharg Island in the northern part of the Gulf to use that as a bargaining chip in negotiations, or Qeshm Island, which is on the Strait of Hormuz. Because the way you control the Strait is to control both sides. And Qeshm Island is on the Iranian side of that Strait. So that would be another possible use for the Marines.
But, look, you know, they've got to sail into the gauntlet in the Gulf to get to either of these islands. And they're going to be targets for every Iranian drone and missile that can be fired at them. So this is going to be dangerous if they are used.
COOPER: Colonel Peter Mansoor, appreciate your time. Margaret Donovan as well. Thanks so much.
Coming up next, how three presidents, including the current one, are remembering former FBI Director Robert Mueller.
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[20:57:49]
COOPER: Before we go tonight, a word about the late FBI Director and Russia Investigation Special Counsel Robert Mueller. He died Friday night at the age of 81. And until he answered the call to investigate alleged Russian tampering in the 2016 presidential election, he was almost universally regarded across the political spectrum as a model public servant.
That career of service started early. He joined the Marines in 1966 at the height of the Vietnam War. His bravery in combat earned him a Bronze Star, a Purple Heart, the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry, and two Navy Accommodation Medals.
He went on to join the Justice Department, leading the investigation into the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, and eventually heading up the department's criminal division. His early years as FBI director were dominated by September 11th and the job of reshaping the Bureau to prevent more terror attacks.
Robert Mueller left the FBI in 2013. But when his country called during the first Trump administration to investigate foreign interference in the 2016 election, he once again answered that call. Both the presidents he served at the FBI paid tribute to him over the weekend. George W. Bush, the Republican president who appointed him, and Democrat Barack Obama, who kept him on. So did President Trump.
I want to read you all three of those statements in full. First, President Bush. "Laura and I are deeply saddened by the loss of Robert Mueller. Bob dedicated his life to public service as a Marine in Vietnam. He proved he was ready for tough assignments. He earned a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart before returning home to pursue law.
In 2001, only one week into the job as the sixth director of the FBI, Bob transitioned the agency mission to protecting the homeland after September 11th. Laura and I send our heartfelt sympathies to his wife of nearly 60 years and the Mueller family."
Now this from President Obama. "Bob Mueller was one of the finest directors in the history of the FBI, transforming the Bureau after 9- 11 and saving countless lives. But it was his relentless commitment to the rule of law and his unwavering belief in our bedrock values that made him one of the most respected public servants of our time. Michelle and I send our condolences to Bob's family and everyone who knew and admired him."
Finally, there was this from the current President of the United States. "Robert Mueller just died. Good. I'm glad he's dead. He can no longer hurt innocent people."
That's it for us. The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now. I'll see you tomorrow.
