Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Health Officials Working to Track Deadly Hantavirus that Hit Cruise Ship; U.S. Launches Strikes After Iran Fires Missiles at Warships; Trump Urges Iran to Sign Deal "Fast" after Hormuz Attacks on U.S. Ships; U.S. Launches Strikes After Iran Fires Missiles At Warships; Trump: New Strikes On Iran "Just A Love Tap"; Rubio Meets Pope Leo As Trump Continues Attacks On Pontiff; Fmr. Special Counsel Jack Smith Decries "Attack On The Rule Of Law". Aired 8-9p ET
Aired May 07, 2026 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: ... and won't compromise on the core message of his papacy, the desire to pursue peace.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LAMB: Well, Erin, everyone I've spoken to about Pope Leo say he's not a confrontational character, but it is clear when President Trump says something that Leo feels is untrue, he does feel the need to respond and correct things. So, I imagine we could see more of this clash in the weeks and months ahead -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Alright Chris, thank you so much from Rome. And thanks for joining us. AC360 starts now.
[20:00:36]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Good evening from the Newsroom. Topping our CNN Global Coverage tonight, we have breaking news on the hantavirus outbreak on board the cruise ship that killed three passengers.
Health officials now say they are working to track more than two dozen passengers who left the vessel almost two weeks ago. The ship itself is now a floating quarantine zone, but those passengers who left, 29 people in all were told, have since traveled to 12 different countries around the world, including the United States, where they and those they've come in contact with are now being monitored for signs of infection by a virus that kills, on average, about one in three people who catch it.
Again, 29 people from four continents that we know of have already traveled home, including a number of Americans who returned to their homes in Georgia, Arizona, Virginia and Texas. Health officials in each of the states say they are monitoring these passengers, and so far, none of them show any symptoms. That is the good news.
Today, some of the country's top infectious disease specialists went public with concerns about the federal public health response so far. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. CARLOS DEL RIO, EXECUTIVE ASSOCIATE DEAN, EMORY UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: So, I would envision that by now, many, many days ago, we would have seen at, you know, a team from CDC deployed to the area. And we haven't seen that. So, to me, we also would have had a press briefing from CDC. We would have had information coming. CDC typically would put out something called HAN the Health Alert Notice when something happens and we haven't seen a HAN related to this. So, a lot of the things that you would like to see, we haven't seen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: What we will see on Sunday is the ship with the remaining 146 people from 23 different countries arriving in the Canary Islands. And from there, it seems, head home. More on all this now from our Randi Kaye.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT (voice over): More than two dozen passengers from 12 different countries possibly exposed to the hantavirus on board the M/V Hondius Cruise Ship already on the move around the world. The cruise company oceanwide expeditions, confirming that 29 passengers got off the ship at Saint Helena and one body was removed after the first leg of the cruise on April 24th. Ten days before the first official hantavirus case was confirmed.
DR. TEDROS ADHANOM GHEBREYESUS, WHO DIRECTOR GENERAL: While this is a serious incident, WHO assesses the public health risk as low.
KAYE (voice over): Those who disembarked early on include six passengers from the United States. Oceanwide says all those who got off the ship have been contacted by the cruise company.
GHEBREYESUS: Given the incubation period of the Andes virus, which can be up to six weeks, it's possible that more cases may be reported.
KAYE: Authorities are still trying to get a handle on the exact movements of the Dutch couple they believe is at the center of the outbreak. The first two people to die.
GHEBREYESUS: Prior to boarding the ship. The first two cases had traveled through Argentina, Chile and Uruguay on a bird watching trip, which included visits to sites where the species of rat that's known to carry Andes virus was present.
KAYE (voice over): None of the people on board are showing symptoms of the virus, health officials say, but cases and suspected cases around the world are rising.
DR. JEANNE MARRAZZO, PRESIDENT OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES SOCIETY OF AMERICA: When people are very symptomatic, particularly with fever, that is when they are most infectious for this virus.
KAYE (voice over): In Switzerland, a man on the same flight as the 69- year-old Dutch woman who died after collapsing in the airport, is also in the hospital.
In Singapore, two people from the ship are isolating and awaiting test results. In Canada, three people are asymptomatic and self-isolating. Eight French Nationals are also being tested after contact with a passenger who tested positive for hantavirus.
And in Germany, a passenger from the ship was whisked away to the hospital by ambulance to quarantine.
Here in the U.S., two passengers from Georgia, two from Texas, one from Arizona, another from Virginia, and an undisclosed number of people from California are all being monitored by their state health departments. That includes daily temperature checks. None of these people are officially in quarantine. Those on board are isolating in their cabin rooms and being asked to wear a mask when they leave.
The ship is expected to arrive in Tenerife in Spain's Canary Islands, this weekend. It won't anchor in the port, though, smaller boats will ferry passengers in to minimize risk. When the 13 passengers and one crew member from Spain disembark, they will immediately be taken to this hospital in Madrid to quarantine.
Meantime, authorities continue to insist there is no cause for alarm.
DR. MARIA VAN KERKHOVE, WHO DIRECTOR FOR EPIDEMIC AND PANDEMIC PREPAREDNESS AND PREVENTION: This is not the SARS-CoV-2. This is not the start of the COVID pandemic. It doesn't spread the same way like coronaviruses do. It's very different, it's that close, intimate contact that we've seen.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[20:05:28]
COOPER: And Randi Kaye joins us now. Randy, it sounds like Spain has a plan with the rest of the passengers' quarantine. Will they quarantine when they get off the ship Sunday morning, the Canary Islands?
KAYE: It's a good -- it's a good question, Anderson. No official plan has been made public. It seems like it's still a work in progress. We know that the world health organization is recommending isolation for confirmed and suspected cases. Those people who have symptoms, and then they're recommending active monitoring for those who may have been exposed.
But the question is, what is that active monitoring mean? They're leaving it up to the countries to decide, is that a full quarantine, or do people just have to self-report any symptoms?
Now, the World Health Organization is also still working with these various countries to try and figure out the safest way also to get these passengers home. And, Anderson it is worth noting, because of all the concern about a possible spread and the number of cases and suspected cases that are still rising, that the World Health Organization said today, that this reminds them of something that happened back in 2018. There was an outbreak in Argentina that ended up with just 34 cases. So, they said that they don't expect this to be a very large epidemic. It feels very familiar to them -- Anderson.
COOPER: Well, that sounds good, Randi. Appreciate it, thanks.
I want to bring Dr. Craig Spencer. He's an emergency medicine physician, public health researcher as well. He's affiliated with Brown University's Pandemic Center. Dr. Spencer also knows infection and contact tracing firsthand. He caught and survived Ebola back in 2014.
It's good to see you again, doctor. So, in your opinion, do you think health officials in the U.S., globally are doing enough to prevent the outbreak of this? Are you concerned about this kind of an outbreak of hantavirus?
DR. CRAIG SPENCER, Professor, Brown University Of Public Health: Well, thanks for having me. Look, I'm not particularly concerned about hantavirus. And I think the risk to the average American is remarkably low. There are a lot of other things that are more concerning to me on a daily basis.
What I'm concerned about here is what this represents about our preparedness, particularly with the World Cup right around the corner. And I was on your show a year ago, and I talked about what was going to happen when we tore apart our disease detection infrastructure around the world and here in the United States.
And since then, we've defunded, we've got rid of USAID that hosted critical relationships to do that surveillance and detect diseases exactly like this around the world.
The NIH, in the meantime, has cut funding to a center that was studying this exact hantavirus. CDC disease detectives have been fired and rehired multiple times. Our office of pandemic preparedness is empty and without a budget, and we have cut off our relationships with the World Health Organization to the point that CDC had to get an exemption to even talk to the WHO right now, who is largely leading this response.
And because of all of those things, we find ourselves flat footed. And we're lucky that it's not something more concerning. I think we have incredible folks at the CDC, but just like in fire departments across the country, we would never expect firefighters to work without hoses and water and to take away their training and expect that they're going to be able to respond to any fire just as quickly and as well as they could before.
Weve done the same with our ability to respond to things like this, and I think we're going to end up seeing the consequences.
COOPER: I mean, it's incredible. Just the catalogue of the devastation of our public health, resources that you've just cataloged. I want to also bring in former CDC Director, Dr. Tom Frieden. Dr. Frieden, can you just explain how this particular strain of the hantavirus, the Andes strain, is spread? And yes, I mean, how does it spread? Is it, how contagious is it actually?
DR. TOM FRIEDEN, FORMER DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: We're learning more about this virus all the time. The bottom line here is that hollowing out the CDC and walking away from the World Health Organization makes Americans less safe. This is one of a large number of microbes that can change unpredictably.
What we're seeing here, hantavirus is actually a very wide range of viruses, 50 different types of viruses. Even within those types, there are subtypes. And it's one of the viruses that changes relatively quickly. It can mix and match different strains of the virus.
So, what you really worry about is a virus that has a high case fatality rate, kills people, and it spreads easily. What we're seeing so far is that it has a high case fatality rate in the other outbreaks. But so far, it seems like spread requires fairly close contact.
COOPER: Dr. Spencer, you know, it's very alarming when you hear one of the people who died the Dutch lady actually left the ship. Her husband had died. She actually died in the airport, collapsed in the airport, returning home.
As someone who survived Ebola, you know, about quarantining, contact tracing. Given what you just outlined of what's going on with our public health offices around the country and our capabilities. Are you confident that health officials in various states would be doing enough to maintain contact with people? Should people be quarantined when they come off the ship?
[20:10:35]
SPENCER: I think it's a really important question. And look, Dr. Friedan and I were working in West Africa together in 2014, and Dr. Frieden helped lead the response to my own illness here in the United States. We learned a lot then, particularly around the fact that quarantines are tough. And we also know that every single individual that is on that cruise ship right now is a human that has a family and is remarkably concerned and we need to think about the safest and the smartest way to protect them and others.
I do think that the folks that we have left at the CDC are incredible. I think the people that we have in our state and local health departments around the United States are absolutely amazing and can do this work. This is bread and butter public health. But as we've pointed out over the last year, we've cut a lot of that funding and a lot of the support to those agencies.
And so, I think we're going to get through this. I maybe expect a few more cases that well hear about. I don't expect hundreds or thousands or another pandemic, but I want this to be a reminder of why we need these systems in place, from the local level to the state to the federal before outbreaks like this exist. And they need to remain outside of partisan bickering and funding concerns. We don't know when the next hantavirus or next concerning virus is going to hit. We need these systems in place so we can respond quickly, not be so flat footed as we find ourselves here.
COOPER: Yes, Dr. Frieden I mean, there will be another pandemic at some point. I mean, hopefully not for a long time, but it is inevitable. I remember going to a monkeypox outbreak. Now called Mpox outbreak in DRC, Congo. I don't know, 15 years ago or something and thinking, wow, this is I don't even know why we're here. This is a really obscure zoonotic virus. Why are we doing this? And sure enough, it did come to the United States. You've written about how this outbreak shows the WHO is essential for American health and safety.
It's stunning and it's important to remind people. The U.S. formally withdrew from the WHO.
FRIEDEN: Yes, there are a huge number of microbes out there. They can become resistant to antibiotics. They can become more virulent. Our defenses are key. Those defenses include laboratories that can test epidemiologists or disease detectives who can track things down. And the institutions, the organizations that support them. We need to rebuild the CDC, which has been hollowed out.
We need to rejoin the World Health Organization. Yes, there are problems with that, as with any organization, but we don't make it better by walking away. And we need to address the risks of a pandemic in the future. And we can do that by strengthening the tracking systems and by reducing the risk of spread from both spillover from the animal world and laboratory release.
All of these things are risks, and we are letting down our guard.
COOPER: Dr. Frieden. Dr. Spencer, I appreciate you being on. Thank you very much.
Coming up next, we have more breaking news. The U.S. and Iran trade shots in the Strait of Hormuz. Details on the ships Iran targeted. The American response and what the President is now saying about how this may affect the ceasefire.
And later, Secretary of State Rubio is meeting with Pope Leo and the ongoing antagonism by his boss, the President, toward the pontiff.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:18:10]
COOPER: After waiting all day for Iran's answer to an American proposal for ending the conflict, it came today in the form of a drone, missile and small boat fire. According to central command, Iranian forces targeted these three American guided missile destroyers as they transited the Strait of Hormuz.
CENTCOM says that none of the vessels was hit, and that U.S. forces targeted a number of Iranian military facilities in response describing them as missile and drone launch sites, command and control locations, and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance nodes. They gave no details about what, if anything, was struck. For its part, a spokesman for Iran's armed forces said that American
airstrikes hit three locations. You see them here on the map, which they described as civilian areas.
Now, late today, the President told ABC News that the ceasefire is still on, calling the latest strikes on Iran a "love tap." He also posted about it online, saying in part, missiles were shot at our destroyers and were easily knocked down. Likewise, drones came and were incinerated while in the air. They dropped ever so beautifully down to the ocean, very much like a butterfly dropping to its grave.
He also warned Iran to sign a deal fast or, "we'll knock them out a lot harder and a lot more violently in the future."
Joining us now is Axios' Barak Ravid, CNN political and foreign policy analyst. What are you hearing, Barak, about these strikes and the likelihood that the ceasefire, such as it is, may be scuttled.
BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL AND FOREIGN ANALYST: Well, first, those strikes took place when the three U.S. destroyers that basically crossed the Strait of Hormuz a few days ago into the gulf as part of Operation Project Freedom, that since then was suspended, made their way back to the Arabian sea to join the U.S. blockade.
And while they were moving through the strait of Hormuz, the Iranians launched missiles and drones against them. None of the ships was hit, according to U.S. officials. But that's what led to the, you know, U.S. retaliation and the strike the Iranian positions and targets on the on the coast in the Strait of Hormuz.
U.S. officials claim and we heard from President Trump himself that this is not going to influence the ceasefire, we can still call it a ceasefire. And that's not going to influence the negotiations that are going on. But I think well have to see in the next few days.
But at least what I hear from U.S. officials, is they see it as an isolated incident that they hope will not influence the bigger picture.
[20:20:49]
COOPER: Does it seem to you that the U.S. -- that the administration just wants out of this?
RAVID: I think it's clear that President Trump would be very happy to finish this war. The only problem is, to do that, he needs to get a deal with Iran, mainly on the nuclear issues and obviously, to reopen the Strait of Hormuz.
And here's the complication, because at least until now, there's no agreement on those two issues.
The parties are getting closer together. I hear it from U.S. officials. I hear it from the mediators. I think that even Iranian officials admitted, finally, after a few days, admitted today when they spoke to "The New York Times" that there is progress that they are working on a memorandum of understanding to end the war.
But it doesn't mean that they'll reach an agreement. U.S. official, very senior U.S. official told me today that he expects that those several sets of Iranian responses will start arriving tomorrow.
The thing is that because of the fact that everything needs to go through the Supreme Leader, the Supreme Leader is in hiding. To communicate with him, you need to go through a series of couriers. This takes a long, long time. That's why the U.S. expects to get some of the answers it wants tomorrow. Some of them, uh, most likely on Saturday.
And I think overall, President Trump would like to come back from his trip to China at the end of next week, knowing that there's been a breakthrough and that a deal is on the verge of being signed.
COOPER: Yes.
RAVID: If that's not going to be the case, I think the military option will come back to the table.
COOPER: Barak Ravid appreciate it. Thanks very much, Barak.
RAVID: Thank you.
COOPER: As Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs, Wendy Sherman led the U.S. Negotiating team in talks that ended with the 2015 nuclear agreement with Iran. Of course, that got scuttled in 2018 by the Trump administration. She joins us now with me, here in the Newsroom, CNN National Security analyst, Alex Plitsas as well.
I mean, do you think the fire today amounts to much the back and forth? I mean, in the sense that they were attempting to kill U.S. service members while the President called it a love tap. They fired missiles and drones that were lethal with an intention to kill U.S. forces, transiting an international waterway that were not conducting any offensive actions against Iran.
So, you know, I think to Barak's point, I think it's clear the President was not looking for an escalatory pattern of behavior here from the U.S. They struck back; it was proportionate.
COOPER: The fact that the President, United States, is calling it a love tap. I don't know if he was referring to the Iranian attack or what the U.S. response was, but it doesn't sound like he's either taking, you know, is very concerned about it or just wants to project that he's not concerned about it.
ALEX PLITSAS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: And I think both, to be honest with you, I think he saw it as an isolated incident. I think he's trying to project outwardly the same way because he doesn't want to be forced back into military action, because he does want to conclude this this military campaign that's ongoing at the moment. I know we keep changing names --
COOPER: Isn't it a weakness if you engage in a military campaign, if you telegraph and your enemy knows you want to get out of it.
PLITSAS: I mean, it's certainly being perceived that way by the Iranians. And speaking to some of the interlocutors there and some of the regional partners, the U.S. stance on that, the failure to respond to, you know, the attack the other day where the Iranians hit, you know, in the UAE, they struck some of the oil facilities was in part at least were hearing today, part of the reason why the Project Freedom was shut down, because our allies in the region basically said, hey, we're not going to allow you to launch from our bases in the region if we're going to be subjected to these types of attacks, and you're not going to respond because it's only going to embolden the Iranians. So unfortunately, it is giving the Iranians more confidence.
COOPER: Ambassador Sherman, Iranian officials, they protested before the U.S. has carried out strikes during the middle of negotiations. If negotiations continue, what do you think this does to that already low level of trust?
WENDY SHERMAN, FORMER UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR POLITICAL AFFAIRS: Well, I think Barak made a very important point at the end of his comments, and that is that Donald Trump is going to China next week, and the Iranians know that he's going to China next week, and he really wants to have this over. He does not want his entire visit with Xi Jinping to be about the Strait of Hormuz and the fact that the Chinese cannot get what they need out of the Strait. And in fact, ostensibly, a Chinese ship was attacked the other day. So, there's great concern.
The President is also the International Court of trade, a federal court deciding that his 10 percent across the board tariffs don't stand. That is absolutely, as others have said, catnip for the Chinese, that's not good.
[20:25:32]
It is important for a President to go into a summit with Xi Jinping in a position of strength. Right now, Iran knows that the United States really, really, really wants a deal. That's why the President is saying this is a love tap, a skirmish, an excursion, not war, except when he slips and says it is war. And in fact, what is critical and what Alex just noted is there's an adversary here. We don't get to decide everything.
If an American soldier had been killed in this latest skirmish, or a love tap or excursion, all bets are off on what would happen and what the escalation would be like.
And let me also add one last point here. There is no insurance company after today that's going to let any ship go through the Strait of Hormuz, given what just happened.
COOPER: Ambassador Sherman, just based on your experience, how difficult is it to negotiate if Iran believes and knows the U.S., this administration which started this, wants to get out of it. SHERMAN: There's no question, it's a terrible negotiating position for
the United States. Now that's why we see the President putting out a tweet saying, you know, we're going to knock you out if you don't sign this agreement, trying to show that we have capabilities, which we do militarily to strike back, but so does Iran.
COOPER: But after the 20th time you've tweeted that out.
SHERMAN: Yes.
COOPER: Doesn't it lose some of its potency?
SHERMAN: Absolutely. One has to be tough with the Iranians. They are very tough, very capable, very sophisticated negotiators. And even if they get this MOU, this is not a deal. Deal is Trump language. This would be a memorandum of understanding of very, very high-top lines. And although, ostensibly they'll get this all worked out in 30 days, there is no way to get all the technicalities of what's being proposed by the United States done in 30 days.
And the Iranians so far want to deal with the Strait and the Blockade. They want reparations, and then they'll get to the nuclear part of this agreement. That's not sufficient, nor should it be for the United States and we'll see whether, in fact, we get this agreement. This isn't good for Iran either, though. You saw the news report today that the intelligence community is saying that Iran really can deal with this blockade for another four months or so and can really hold out for quite some time.
They are suffering. They no doubt would like to get back into a better place, but they're tough. They're very tough.
COOPER: Wendy Sherman, appreciate it. Alex Plitsas as well.
Coming up next, what the President just said moments ago on all of this, also perspective from CNN's Fareed Zakaria.
And later, can Americas chief diplomat do what no secretary of state has ever done or had to do before, namely, mend fences with the Pope while his boss, the President, continues to launch verbal attacks against that pope?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:32:43]
COOPER: The President has spoken out again today about the clash in the Strait of Hormuz. He's already called it a, quote, "love tap," as we mentioned just a moment ago. He told reporters that Iran, quote, "Trifled with us. We blew them away. They trifled. I call that a trifle." He said that three times.
Fareed Zakaria joins us. He's the host of Fareed Zakaria GPS, and is airing a special report this Sunday night on The Imperial Presidency. It's at 8:00 Eastern here on CNN. So, after the exchange of fire today between the U.S. and Iran, how
fragile -- what do you think is just going on here? I mean, it seems, again, I just keep coming back to it, it seems very clear the administration wants out, and Iran very clearly knows that. That just seems like a fundamental flaw in this whole plan.
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: Yes, I think you have it exactly right. Essentially what you had was a deadlock, right? The Iranians had blocked the Strait of Hormuz. Then Trump came up with this idea, no, we're going to block the Strait so that no ships can go through, not even your own.
And then Trump thought that would be enough pressure to get the Iranians to make massive concessions. It didn't work. So then he decided three days ago, OK, I'm going to try and break this blockade by calling it a humanitarian convoy, humanitarian corridor.
The Iranians fired back. That didn't work. Now he's tried again in various ways.
The basic dynamic is this, Anderson. Trump is trying to see what can put pressure on the Iranians to come to the table and make concessions fast. The Iranians know that and are willing to take the pain as long as the pain is distributed to everybody.
So when they fire, it's not like they're getting ships out. What they're making sure is the Strait is closed to everyone because by just a certain amount of violence, you know, some drones, some fast productivity, insurance companies are not going to be willing to insure oil tankers passing through the Gulf. So effectively it shuts down this very important pipe of the global economy.
And the Iranians, in a sense, have an advantage because all they're trying to do is raise the insurance price. Trump is trying to open up the Strait for everyone, a much harder task.
COOPER: You know, the criticism of that, the pushback on that is, well, look, it's -- you know, the Iranians have suffered terribly. There have been, you know, the bombing campaign, the military did a great job, which is clearly true.
[20:35:13]
They hit the targets they wanted to. They've, you know, caused a lot of destruction of missiles and facilities. That said, Iran seems very willing to have their people suffer, to take the cost of it, just like they did during the Iran-Iraq war for eight years, and just, you know, wait it out.
ZAKARIA: Exactly. The thing to remember, Anderson, it's not even that the Iranians are some strange regime in that regard. This was true in Vietnam. The United States dropped more bombs on North Vietnam than it dropped in all of World War II, many times more on North Vietnam than it dropped in all of World War II.
The North Vietnamese did not change their negotiating position. They did not make concessions as a result of it. Because when the two -- when you have two sides, and for one side this conflict is existential, they're going to be the ones for whom the stakes are so high that they'll take the pain.
For the Iranian leadership, if they lose this, it could mean regime change, overthrow, they get slaughtered on the streets, they've seen what happened to Assad in Syria, right? For Donald Trump, if this goes badly, it's a bad weekend at Mar-a-Lago.
COOPER: Fareed Zakaria, thanks very much.
Up next, Secretary of State Marco Rubio meets with Pope Leo after weeks of tensions between the White House and the Vatican. And also private remarks by former Trump prosecutor Jack Smith just now coming to light about a Justice Department that he says has been corrupted.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:40:59]
COOPER: At the Vatican today, that's Pope Leo extending an olive branch, giving Secretary of State Rubio a pen made from olive wood, a tree symbolizing peace. The State Department says the two discussed the situation in the Middle East as well as their shared commitment, and I'm quoting, "to promoting peace and human dignity."
This follows weeks of tension between President Trump and the Pontiff over the war in Iran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE LEO XIV, HEAD OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: I hope that he's looking for an off-ramp.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not a big fan of Pope Leo. He's a very liberal person.
LEO XIV: Too many innocent people are being killed, and I think someone has to stand up and say that there's a better way to do this.
I have no fear of neither the Trump administration nor speaking out loudly about the message of the Gospel.
TRUMP: Pope Leo said things that are wrong. I think he's very weak on crime and other things.
I think he's endangering a lot of Catholics and a lot of people. But I guess if it's up to the Pope, he thinks it's just fine for Iran to have a nuclear weapon.
As far as the Pope is concerned, it's very simple. Whether I make him happy or I don't make him happy, Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. And he seemed to be saying that they can, and I say they cannot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, keeping him honest, Pope Leo has never said Iran should have a nuclear weapon.
Joining us now is former Republican Congressman Joe Walsh and Democratic Strategist Paul Begala. Both, we should mention, are practicing Catholics.
Paul, how significant was this timing of the visit, given the recent back-and-forth between the President and the Pope?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's very important, and it's significant because this President, this American President, has never met with the American-born Holy Father. Now, Pope Leo's only been Pope for a year, but that's extraordinary.
I think it's wonderful that they met. I think it's wonderful -- you know, the Holy Father usually meets with heads of state, not with secretaries of state or foreign ministers. So I think it was very gracious of the Holy Father to have that meeting, and I think it's very important.
The problem is Donald Trump won the Catholic vote decisively. And, by the way, we, Catholics, generally swing with whoever is going to win. The Catholic vote usually determines, it has in my whole career, determine who's going to win the White House. And Trump won Catholics by 20 points.
He has squandered that with this God-awful war, literally, and then these blasphemous attacks on the Holy Father, and I think portraying himself as Christ himself, which is the definition of blasphemy. So he's in a terrible political bind. I think it's great, though, as an American and as a Catholic, to see my secretary of state meeting with my Holy Father. So that's a good thing.
COOPER: Congressman, Secretary Rubio dismissed the notion that he was attempting to reset diplomatic relations with the Vatican after what the President had said. Do you think this was more about damage control than anything else?
JOE WALSH (R), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE - ILLINOIS: Anderson, this is all damage control. That's all this is. And, look, I agree with Paul that Donald Trump is the problem. The problem is that for the past four to five weeks, the President of the United States has been hurling ugly, ugly personal attacks at the Holy Father, at the leader of the Catholic Church.
And Paul's right, he's hemorrhaging Catholic votes right now. So Marco Rubio, I don't want to say, Anderson, he's a prop today. I don't feel the same sense of pride seeing our secretary of state there because I think he's there purely, purely to do damage control for Donald Trump. And this won't stop Trump's attack on Pope Leo because Pope Leo will continue to do what he should do, which is advocate for peace.
COOPER: Paul, I just want to play something the President said just tonight about this visit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you spoken to Secretary Rubio since his meeting with Pope Leo? And did you ask him --
TRUMP: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- to pass on a message to him?
TRUMP: I just said tell the Pope very nicely, very respectfully, that Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. So when he comes to their defense, also tell the Pope that Iran killed 42,000 innocent protesters who didn't have guns, who didn't have weapons. Tell that to the Pope.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:45:12]
COOPER: What's your reaction to that, Paul?
BEGALA: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. How many commandments does this guy violate every day? The President -- and I say this really with no joy, the President's lying. He's lying about the Pope.
The Holy Father, every Pope, the Catholic Church has been opposed to nuclear weapons since the advent of nuclear weapons. The Vatican State is a signatory to the nonproliferation, nuclear nonproliferation treaty. The Holy Father said over and over that war is wrong and nuclear weapons are wrong, and has never said what Trump claims that he said.
And just as a political matter, I think perhaps President Trump doesn't understand the reverence that Catholics have for their Holy Father, but particularly American Catholics for this American-born Pope. You know, we love this guy, and this is hurting Trump terribly politically, but more importantly, I think it's hurting the United States.
Trump's gone out of his way to rupture relations with all of our closest allies, and now even with the Vatican. You know, the system was, I think, pretty easy. Republicans made common cause with the Vatican on opposing communism and opposing abortion.
Democrats would make common cause with the Holy Father, whoever he was, by pushing for social justice, feeding the poor, and caring for the migrants. This was pretty easy for Trump, and yet somehow he's managed to alienate the Pope and a billion Catholics. By the way, 21 percent of all American voters are Catholic.
COOPER: Congressman, I mean, do you think that the President knew the kind of uproar that this would create? I mean, you know, he has these -- he has an alleged spiritual adviser who's evangelical. I'm not sure what her feelings are toward the Vatican. I don't know how this plays with his spiritual advisers, but do you think he understood the -- why this might anger people?
WALSH: No. No, Anderson. He doesn't understand much of anything. And the other problem is, yes, he's lying about the Pope, but Donald Trump lies as he breathes. That's a given. He doesn't know the first thing about Catholic theology.
It is, to echo what Paul said, it's extraordinary that he has not sat down with this American Pope in the last year. Anderson, the other thing, though, that is really disappointing and somewhat extraordinary is, during the midst of this four- to five-week personal attack against the Pope from Trump, Marco Rubio, Catholic, hasn't said a damn thing.
The things that Trump has said about the Holy Father would outrage and infuriate any Catholic, and Marco Rubio has been utterly silent. That's been so disappointing.
COOPER: Paul, does it make sense to you that the President has, I mean, attacked Pope Leo over talking about -- just talking about the war? Doesn't it seem to have a problem with Secretary Hegseth invoking religious imagery and language and bringing religion into the war?
BEGALA: Yes, the President got great support from people of faith, and that's to be respected, but apparently he doesn't respect that, and he doesn't respect them. He -- maybe I'm being unfair. It strikes me as somewhat self-absorbed, Anderson, our President.
COOPER: I had not heard that. That's --
BEGALA: Yes, I know, maybe I'm being unfair. But seriously, like, he -- and it's not just the President. Our Vice President, a Catholic convert -- this is the one that blows my mind as a cradle Catholic -- literally said that the Holy Father should be very careful when talking about theology.
OK, not talking about baseball, maybe, where the Holy Father's a Chicago White Sox fan, God bless him for that, but he literally is trying to lecture. So this administration, they are at war with Catholics, and especially, frankly, American Catholics, and it's not going well for him politically, it's not serving America's interests.
COOPER: Yes. We're going to leave there. Congressman Walsh, appreciate it. Paul Begala as well.
Private and candid comment from Former Special Counsel Jack Smith about the Trump Justice Department have just come to light. You'll hear some of them in a moment. Smith, as you may recall, indicted Mr. Trump in two cases, one alleging election interference, the other the classified documents kept at Mar-a-Lago.
Since then, President Trump has called on Smith to face prosecution himself, alleging he led a personal vendetta against him, offering no proof. Well, now the New York Times has this headline. "Jack Smith Calls the Justice Department Corrupted by Trump and His Allies." In the report, they share clips from a private event last month, including this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- Kevin McCarthy becomes speaker of the House. JACK SMITH, FORMER SPECIAL COUNSEL: The Department of Justice today,
it targets people for criminal prosecution simply because the President doesn't like them. We have a department that fails to investigate cases because they might uncover facts that are inconvenient for narratives the President would like to press.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:50:12]
COOPER: The New York Times says they reach out to the Justice Department for comment, and a spokesperson told them, quote, "I would expect nothing less from Jack Smith."
Joining us now is Former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe, who's a CNN Senior Law Enforcement Analyst. So were you surprised by Jack Smith's comments? Not surprised maybe by the comments, but the fact, I guess, that they leaked out about the DOJ and how unusual is it for a former special counsel to speak candidly like this?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think it's quite a departure from history. Special counsels usually wrap up their work, they publish a report, or they seek indictments, and then they ride off into the sunset. That's clearly not what's happening here.
The fact that these comments have leaked out does not surprise me at all. I was actually at his -- the comments that he made at George Mason University several months ago, and the same thing happened there. I think Jack Smith is a very smart guy and a great orator as you -- if you've gotten to listen to these comments, you know that as well.
And he knows what's going to happen when you speak in a private setting, but one in which people can take videos and photographs and everything else and spread them out. I think it's -- the important thing is that his message is getting out. I think it's a vitally important to draw people's attention right now to the way that the institutions of justice in this country are being debased by this administration.
COOPER: It is extraordinary, I mean, what we have seen at the FBI, at the Department of Justice, at the U.S. Attorney's Office. In this video, Smith also called the Justice Department corrupted. He did have a hopeful message. I just want to play this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Now, given the way the department has been corrupted over the last year, I understand it's very easy to be cynical, to be skeptical about the future. There have been expressions of how terrible things are and where do we go from here. I believe the department ultimately will come through this better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: What's your -- I mean, do you believe that, it will come through it better? I mean, just the rebuilding that would be required, how easy is that going to be or depending on who, you know, who follows?
MCCABE: Yes. So Anderson, first of all, I share his optimism for the end state. I think we do get through this period. We -- at some point, we'll get to a place in this country where we have better leadership at every level, and crucially at places like the Department of Justice and the FBI.
My concern is when that opportunity arises, how long is it going to take us to repair the damage that's happened? It is not going to be a quick process. Will we get there? Yes, we will. But it's not going to be a year or a couple of years. It's going to be -- we could be looking at decades.
For instance, the Department of Justice has basically lost what we call the presumption of regularity, the fact that federal judges basically accept department lawyers on their word. They respect the fact that the Justice Department comes into court and tells the truth, is transparent, reveals the information they have. Not so much anymore.
We're seeing it around the country, judge after judge after judge. They're pushing back because they're tired of DOJ attorneys misrepresenting the facts, hiding information, ignoring court orders, those sorts of things.
So the loss of that trust and integrity is going to take decades to rebuild in the federal bench. So it's going to be a long process, but I do think --
COOPER: Yes.
MCCABE: -- we'll get there eventually.
COOPER: Andrew McCabe, appreciate it. Thank you.
I hope you join me shortly for All There Is Live, my online community that gathers tonight to talk about love and loss. Ahead, we'll have a preview. It starts at 9:15 p.m. A mom of two teens tonight talking about the delayed impact of the sudden loss of her husband.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:58:07]
COOPER: Hope you join me in -- at 9:15 p.m. Eastern for All There Is Live. It's a companion show to my podcast on grief and love. You can only see it at CNN.com/AllThereIs. Tonight, you'll hear from Lauren Specht, whose husband, Bryan, died about two years ago when their kids were teenagers. This is the voicemail Lauren left for me that made me want to interview her tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAUREN SPECHT, LOST HER HUSBAND BY SUICIDE: Hi, my name is Lauren. I lost my husband to suicide in October of 2023, the time I had an 18- year-old and a 15-year-old. And I held it together for a number of weeks, I think, obviously, through shock and adrenaline and planning a funeral and all of those early days. And I hit a bump in the road, and I just lost it.
And my kids were home, and I went upstairs to our bedroom and went into our closet and just laid down and can just remember just physically, emotionally, losing my mind and screaming and just being so angry and sad all at the same time.
And my daughter, who's 15, came into the room, and she just laid down, and she looked at me, and she said, you're scaring me. You're really scaring me. I need you to stop. And it was in that moment that I realized my grief somehow had to take a backseat for a while because they had one parent left now.
And that was when I knew I had to get into therapy quickly so I could find a safe place to cry, scream, all of the things to release what clearly was building up inside of me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That is the voicemail that Lauren left for me. You can join me in about 16 minutes or 15 minutes to hear the full interview at 9:15 p.m. Join me only on CNN.com/AllThereIs, that's our grief community page. It's my live show about grief and loss and love.
I hope you join me in 15 minutes, CNN.com/AllThereIs.
The news continues. The Source starts now.
