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Amanpour
Replay of Interview with Khaled Meshaal
Aired November 23, 2012 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Hello and welcome to the special weekend edition of our program. I'm Christiane Amanpour, coming to you this week from Cairo. I'm here for an exclusive interview that I had earlier in the week with the man at the center now of this fragile truce between Gaza and Israel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): He is Khaled Meshaal, the head of Hamas.
Now the United States and Israel have not been talking to him in order to get this cease-fire --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- because they consider him a pariah. To them, Hamas is a terrorist organization.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): So it's been the Egyptian president, Mohammed Morsi, who's been negotiating with the Israelis on behalf of Hamas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The real question is, now that this round of hostilities has ended, will this cease-fire be any more than a lull? We've seen it happen before. Four years ago, Israel also went into Gaza and now we've had more than a week of war between Israel and Hamas in that blockaded strip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): So I asked Khaled Meshaal what it would take to make this permanent.
AMANPOUR: Khaled Meshaal, thank you for joining me.
KHALED MESHAAL, HAMAS POLITICAL LEADER: Welcome.
AMANPOUR: Both sides are always blaming each other. You're blaming the Israelis; the Israelis blame you.
Is it useful to kill civilians? Is that useful to you? Is it useful to create terror on civilians inside Israel?
MESHAAL (through translator): Let me -- let me give you the truth. On the 8th of November, this month, the Israelis entered Gaza and killed a child, a Palestinian child. The resistance responded. Then the Egyptians interfered and tried, as you know, to create the truce.
One day after the truce last week, in eight -- nine days, the Israelis killed Ahmed al-Jabari, when he was coming from Hajj, from Saudi Arabia. The Israelis escalated the utmost fear in Gaza. So they bear the responsibility. We don't target the civilians. I don't like to shed any drop of blood.
AMANPOUR: Do you think that it's a legitimate part of what you call resistance to kill civilians inside Israel?
MESHAAL (through translator): Resistance does not target the civilians.
AMANPOUR: But they're falling into towns --
(CROSSTALK)
MESHAAL (through translator): -- anywhere else.
We must go back to the origin of the issue. The Palestinian people were living in peace and security, then the Israelis occupied the land. According to international law, and according to the Divine laws, the Americans and all the peoples, every people, when they are -- when they are occupied, they resist with all that they have.
The Israelis -- Israel say it's a state and they have an army, and they call it the army of defense, and they have advanced weapons. They have committed massacres from Deir Yassin to (inaudible), to all the (inaudible) --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Mr. Meshaal?
Mr. Meshaal, the history is a well-known history and everybody's arguing over the history. Today, when you make your analysis of how much pain you're going to inflict, when you do the cost and the benefit of trying to make your point and get the world on your side, do you consider how many -- you've talked about Israeli civilians.
Now how many Palestinian civilians are being killed because of your actions? Do you consider that?
MESHAAL (through translator): It is not because of our action. We are defending our people and our land and I will respond. Let me tell you. I say to you, I'm the leader of Hamas.
I tell you, through CNN, to the whole world, we are ready to resort to a peaceful way, truly peaceful way, without blood and weapon, as long as we attain our Palestinian demands: the elimination of occupation and the Palestinian state and ending the occupation and the wall (ph), all the goals, all the national goals.
I ask you, Yasser Arafat gave this opportunity to the Israeli and to the international community. But the Israelis killed Yasser Arafat. Mahmoud Abbas, whom the world welcomed, he gave this opportunity to Israel and to the international community. What did they do? They made him fail. They let him down.
Today, Netanyahu and before him all the leaders of Israel, they have cornered (inaudible). They want the occupation. They want the -- they want the continuation of the settlement. What do they want? What does the world need from the Palestinian people? Our people is the victim. And now we want them to raise a white flag and surrender.
AMANPOUR: You say you would prefer the route that did not cause so much violence, so much death.
And yet, you say that you would accept a two-state solution, but that you will not recognize Israel's right to exist.
Is that still the case?
MESHAAL (through translator): First of all, the offer must come from the attacker, from Israel, which has the arsenal, not from the victim. Second, I say to you from 20 years ago and more, the Palestinians and the Arabs are offering peace. But peace is destroying peace through aggression and war and killing.
This idea (ph), this touch failed experiences, we have two options. No other. Either there's an international will, led by the U.S. and Europe and the international community and force Israel to go through the way of peace and a Palestinian state, according to the border of 1967 with the right to return. And this is something we have agreed upon as Palestinians, as a common program. But if Israel can continue to refuse this, either the -- either we force them or resist to -- resort to resistance. I accept a state of the 1967. How can I accept Israel? They have occupied my land. I need recognition, not the Israelis. This is a reversed question.
AMANPOUR: It might be a reversed question, but it is still the question. All the international agreements about what a two-state solution should look like -- and you're talking about the Americans.
They agree as well, and the U.N. and Moscow and the E.U., that it has to involve Hamas, all parties, renouncing violence and accepting the right of Israel to exist. You keep telling me why not and who should recognize whom. But my question is, is there ever a circumstance under which you will recognize Israel's right to exist?
MESHAAL (through translator): I will give you a reply, a direct reply and a lesson.
About the direct answer, I accept a Palestinian state according to 1967 borders with Jerusalem as the capital, with the right to return.
AMANPOUR: I know you say the right to return --
MESHAAL (through translator): When this stage rises --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: -- you know, everybody's not going to be able to return to Israel. You know that.
MESHAAL (through translator): Please.
What? Say it again?
(SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
AMANPOUR: Under the international agreements every Palestinian who's living in the diaspora is not going to be able to come back to Israel.
MESHAAL (through translator): Who said that? Who said that?
AMANPOUR: That's what are the parameters.
MESHAAL (through translator): I tell you, I accept --
AMANPOUR: They can come to the Palestinian state.
MESHAAL (through translator): I tell you, my sister, you are the CNN, a respected channel. Do a survey through the diaspora where the Palestinians are. If you don't find a majority -- a big majority -- that want to return to their land, then I'm wrong.
But --
AMANPOUR: No, they want to return to their land.
MESHAAL (through translator): Yes.
AMANPOUR: Of course.
MESHAAL (through translator): Yes.
AMANPOUR: The international agreements don't provide for that.
MESHAAL (through translator): I ask you, why the international community is silent about the law --
AMANPOUR: They're not silent. They say that under the international agreement, the return should be to a Palestinian state.
MESHAAL (through translator): OK.
AMANPOUR: OK?
MESHAAL (through translator): OK.
AMANPOUR: So here's the picture. The only thing I want to ask you is are you keeping on making excuses for why you won't recognize?
MESHAAL (through translator): I'm answering. I'm answering. Allow me to answer. I have given you a clear answer. I am -- I want -- I want my state. After this state is established, it decides its standing toward Israel. Don't ask me when I'm in prison and under pressure, under Israeli pressure.
You cannot ask me, as a victim, what is my stand toward Israel. I have mentioned my stand. When there is a Palestinian state and the Palestinians are living like any other people in the world -- but you asked me about the right to return.
I asked you a question and you have interrupted me -- why the international community is silent about the law of the right to return for -- that allows every Israelis to return and the people accept this. The world accepts this.
And there are Jews who have never seen Palestine, while the Palestinian who was born on -- in Palestine, or his grandfather or his father, and he doesn't even have the key.
This one is not -- not allowed, while the Jews are allowed -- are allowed. This is double standard. And it's time to stop.
AMANPOUR: I know that's your view. The international community has put out the parameters. They want Palestinians to be able to live in peace and to have their rights, side by side with a secure Israel. But the problem is they say Hamas just doesn't do anything the international community wants.
MESHAAL (through translator): This is refutable. Hamas is not the obstacle. Mahmoud Abbas, it -- the world knows that he wants peace. Hamas agreed with Mahmoud Abbas many times over the last years on a unified Palestinian vision. And Olmert and Sharon needed failed (ph). And the international community did not help. This is a tragedy. Mahmoud Abbas last year went to the United Nations and he wanted a full membership for the state. And today, Mahmoud Abbas wants to go to the general assembly and he wants only a monitoring membership. And the Americans say don't do that.
Who refuses this step can't help. And he accept a Palestinian state according to the 1967 borders. This is what incur the reactions. Then they resort to resistance because they feel that the international community is not supporting him and supporting the invaders and using double standards.
AMANPOUR: Khaled Meshaal, hold that thought.
We'll be back in a second.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in Cairo.
And now that the cease-fire is underway, the question really is, does it take us back to anything more than the status quo ante?
What will really change if some of the parameters and demands by both sides are enacted? Maybe that might lead to some serious truce, some change in the future. But many people are very skeptical at this time.
And as evidenced from my exclusive interview with Khaled Meshaal, the head of Hamas, there is so much, obviously, that the two sides disagree on so deeply. I spoke to him as the truce was being finalized.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Joining me again, Khaled Meshaal, the head of Hamas.
You moved from your headquarters in Damascus, Syria. Why did you do that?
MESHAAL (through translator): After 10 months, from the beginning of the crisis, the Syrian crisis in March 2011, I left Damascus in January 2011. After I despaired from treating the Syrian crisis in a political way --
AMANPOUR: So you --
MESHAAL (through translator): -- away from blood.
AMANPOUR: -- you disagreed with what President Assad was doing?
MESHAAL (through translator): Certainly. I told him from day one that the Syrian crisis is an internal crisis, that it has started from -- by the demands of the people.
Yes, it's an internal issue, but, I advised him, given our history with the Syrian leadership, I advised him that the Syrian crisis is part of the Arab Spring and there are demands of reform and it requires a political solution and initiative from the Syrian leadership.
Then when they resorted to security and military, which led to the shed of blood, I estimated that this was going -- that was doomed to fail.
AMANPOUR: Therefore, you must have broken with Iran as well, because Iran supports the president of Syria and his policies.
Have you distanced yourself from Iran?
MESHAAL (through translator): No. You see, the relationship with Iran is present. But, yes, it was affected and harmed by our disagreement about Syria.
It is not as it used to be in the past, but there is no severing of relations. But it is different according to the circumstances. The Syrian crisis impacted our relationship with the Iranians. But we still have Iran in relationship in other fields.
AMANPOUR: You have received Iranian long range missiles. The Fajr missiles have come through.
Are you still getting missiles from Iran into Gaza?
MESHAAL (through translator): Hamas, as a movement of resistance, with a cause, for a people living under occupation, we see not just wait to get support, financial support, military support, political support from all over the world, from all the states in the world.
Everyone giving us support, whether it's from Iran or Europe, from anywhere.
AMANPOUR: So the answer is yes?
MESHAAL (through translator): I answered you. Any state supporting us or killing the occupiers, we welcome them and we thank them.
AMANPOUR: What is the end game?
What is your goal?
You govern Gaza.
What is the goal, endless resistance, endless fighting, endless death?
MESHAAL (through translator): Of course not. Of course not. The resistance is not a goal. The resistance is a means to an end. The end game is to end occupation, but the international community is not enabling us to do this. They are biased toward Israel.
When the -- when will the American administration change?
When will the international community say enough to Israel?
When Saddam occupied Kuwait, the international community, in its entirety, interfered.
When is the international will that appeared in Kosovo and in Serbia and appeared in several parts of the world?
Why the international will is not present in Palestine?
All the hypocrisy for Israel and blaming the victim, the Palestinian victim.
AMANPOUR: What do you want to do for your people?
It's endless war.
What do you want to do?
MESHAAL (through translator): Allah has given me a new life. I exploit it. I use it. And I invest it in -- for the sake of God, to appease God, to serve my people, to end the occupation. And such as that, the settlement ends and the killing ends and the aggression ends, and to make peace in the region, but through peace, peace that is not rewarding the occupier, does not oppress the victim.
Peace, the kind of peace that precludes occupation and the bloodshed. Our Islam, all the religions of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, true Judaism, given this -- revealed by God, does not allow the killing of any innocents in the world.
AMANPOUR: So since innocents are being killed by your side and by that side, are you still, after all these years, committed to a one-state solution, as you said, to have Palestine from the Jordan to the sea?
MESHAAL (through translator): Palestine, from the river to the sea, from the north to the south, it is my land and the land of my fathers and grandfathers, inhibited by the Palestinians from a long time ago. This is my land, my right.
But because of the circumstances of the region, because of the keenness to stop the bloodshed, the Palestinians today, and in the past, and Hamas, have agreed about a program, a national program that accepts the '67 borders. But the Israelis don't accept. So it is all about -- up to the Israelis. And the international community is failing to give -- to do us justice.
AMANPOUR: The al Qassim brigades, the military wing of Hamas, they've been tweeting -- there's a Twitter war. Is that crazy? Between al Qassim and IDF about this bomb in the bus in Tel Aviv?
"We told you, IDF, that our blessed hands will reach your leaders and soldiers wherever they are. You opened the gates of hell on yourselves." Is Hamas taking responsibility?
MESHAAL (through translator): Hamas is not claiming responsibility, not announced that it did this operation. The one who claims the responsibility, the one who executed it, and I don't know. But I tell you, this operation is part of the massive ramifications that -- and there will be more as a reaction, an angry reaction from our angry Palestinian people because of the aggression on Gaza.
Whoever does aggression must pay the price, anywhere in the world, not just from Hamas. The world will not just watch as a crime of.
The free people in the world will not just be watched, stand by watching.
AMANPOUR: You said that you would no longer run to be president of Hamas. And yet you're still here. Are you going to continue trying to be elected?
MESHAAL (through translator): I'm still the president of the political office, of course, of Hamas. So my term of office as a leader is not over. But, yes, I'm -- I still abide by what I say, that I will not accept to be nominated because our beautiful tradition in Hamas, because we have deep democracy. So no official can come without election. And one of the moral traditions we have, in addition to others, is no one nominates himself. His brothers nominate himself and he can accept or not accept.
AMANPOUR: But you won't accept?
MESHAAL (through translator): This time I will not accept. I will not accept because I want to give vitality in the democratic experience and I'm the son of Hamas and the founder, one of the founders of Hamas. So my role in Hamas will continue to be strong, but one thing to have a role and another -- the role is more important than to be in one office.
AMANPOUR: So just to be clear, after this term, no more Khaled Meshaal, leader of Hamas?
MESHAAL (through translator): Yes. This is my clear standing.
AMANPOUR: Khaled Meshaal, thank you for joining me.
MESHAAL (through translator): Welcome. Thank you very much.
AMANPOUR: And we'll be right back after a break with a final thought.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, if you read it in a spy novel, you probably wouldn't even believe it. Back in 1997, Khaled Meshaal was the subject of a bizarre assassination attempt.
It was when he was in Jordan and he was confronted by a Mossad agent, who tried to shoot a poison into his ear. In fact, they did. Apparently that was under the approval of then-Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Now then King Hussein of Jordan, who had a peace treaty with Israel, threatened to break it off unless he got the antidote. He asked for the antidote and he got it, and Meshaal lived to fight another day. He told me about it today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MESHAAL (through translator): But God saved me when they tried to assassinate me.
AMANPOUR: King Hussein saved you.
MESHAAL: Allah saved me. Then King Hussein.
AMANPOUR: King Hussein demanded the poison and the antidote.
MESHAAL (through translator): This -- and this is a standing that is great on the part of King Hussein, and I'm still loyal to him and I pray for him. And I am obliged for this courageous stand that forced Netanyahu to give the antidote and thank God I was healed.
But I mention this in the vein of the Israeli crime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So after that assassination attempt, more than 15 years ago, Meshaal went on, as we know, to become head of Hamas. And now it seems that both he and Netanyahu, old foes, are constantly locked in this mortal combat. We'll wait to see whether this cease-fire brings any change at all to this situation.
That's it for us. I'm Christiane Amanpour, reporting live from Cairo. Thank you for watching. And you can always follow me at amanpour.com and on Twitter and Facebook. Good night.
END
