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Amanpour

Syrian Opposition Leaders Meet in Morocco; Islamists within Coalition Alarm US

Aired December 12, 2012 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour. In Morocco today, the United States formally bestows its recognition on the new Syrian Opposition Coalition after 20 months of brutal civil war.

And as the meeting of the so-called Friends of Syria took place in Marrakesh, evidence of a dangerous escalation in the fighting was confirmed by U.S. officials.

The Assad regime has reportedly unleashed Scud missiles on the main rebel force, the Free Syrian Army. That's according to published reports.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): And explosions tore through the interior ministry headquarters in Damascus today according to Syrian television.

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AMANPOUR: While the Syrian opposition forces welcome U.S. recognition and the legitimacy that confers following the lead of France and Britain and Arab and European countries, there is also mounting criticism of the United States because 24 hours earlier the Obama administration had designated one of the main rebel fighting groups as a terrorist organization.

Now the very coalition the U.S. has just officially recognized is calling on Washington to immediately take the group Jabhat al-Nusra off its terror list.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): The U.S. and other security experts say al- Nusra is full of Arab Salafist fighters and is deeply tied to Al Qaeda in Iraq; in fact, is part of Al Qaeda in Iraq. But a Facebook page called We Are All Jabhat al-Nusra has just popped up in Syria, calling for anti- American protests on Friday.

So why the support for this group? Because Syrian opposition leaders say they are among the most effective fighters against the Assad regime at a time when there's no other outside military intervention.

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AMANPOUR: So what's next for Syria? I will ask the key players, Ambassador Frederic Hof was the U.S. State Department special adviser for the Syrian transition and he'll join me shortly from Washington, D.C. But first to Morocco, where the meeting with the new Syrian Opposition Coalition took place and George Sabra, a vice president of that organization, he joins me right now.

Mr. Sabra, welcome; thank you for joining me on the program.

Let me first ask you what difference will this U.S. recognition make on the ground?

GEORGE SABRA, SYRIAN OPPOSITION COALITION VICE PRESIDENT: Really, we were happy about this recognition, although we were waiting for something else more than what we have got. We are -- we were waiting for the only legitimate representative to consider the coalition the only one.

Although we were happy about what happened, this recognition will help us to get also additional recognition from European countries, from other countries or friends of Syria, also Arab countries. And this is -- can push us, an opposition, toward to meet our goals --

AMANPOUR: Yes. Can it -- ?

SABRA: -- for --

AMANPOUR: Can it change the dynamic on the ground? How do you expect it to change the dynamic of the fighting right now?

SABRA: It may be it helps a little. But we think the dynamic on the ground helps us to get this recognition because the dynamic on the ground is the most important event these days. And we think that dynamic will affect all the positions, all the efforts in the Arab countries and in the international community toward us.

AMANPOUR: Yes. Mr. Sabra, the United States has made it clear publicly that this diplomatic recognition does not mean military help or funneling military aid to the rebel fighters in Syria.

So do you believe that there is a way, diplomatically, to negotiate a way out of this situation?

SABRA: You know, even that, but we consider this recognition good news, especially when we hear the President Obama himself announce it last night.

But about the other thing, I think today, we have got from the declare of Friends of Syria that the right (ph) for Syrian people to defend themselves, that mean also they have the right to bring the tools, to bring the -- everything help them to defend themselves.

` AMANPOUR: Let me ask you about the military, how the military operation is going to continue. We hear reports that Syrian rebels are being trained in Jordan; it's being organized by the United States and they're being trained with, for instance, how to use sophisticated anti- aircraft missiles.

Can you tell me more about how Syrian rebels are being trained?

SABRA: You know, we have an important council, military council, work inside Syria in all the regions, from the north to the south. And a week ago, we succeed to join them and their one commander and their one high council for the all revolution council and military council.

Also in Jordan, we have some officer there, some council also join their friends in Turkey, the same effort to help Syrian people inside Syria to protect themselves and go with the battle, especially in the mosque (ph) and around the mosque (ph) to the end of this regime.

AMANPOUR: To Damascus. Is the U.S. training rebels outside?

SABRA: You know, this is a military thing --

AMANPOUR: OK.

SABRA: I am -- as a politician I don't have enough experience for that.

AMANPOUR: All right. Let me ask you this then. Before recognizing your organization, the Obama administration, as I said, designated Jabhat al-Nusra as a terrorist organization. And suddenly there's a lot of anger about that inside Syria.

What is your reaction to this designation? And why is there so much anger to it?

SABRA: We were sorry about that and we (inaudible) today (inaudible) about that, that this issue will be open to an open dialogue between us and the United States. You know why? We were (inaudible) how can or why the United States wanted to send a negative message to the Syrian people before the positive message.

The negative message was sent yesterday; and today, they send a positive message. We think this decision will be on the table.

We have to discuss this thing between us as friends, because we consider and Syrian people consider al-Nusra as a part of the revolution gang (ph) and go directly toward the regime. And there is no any indicate that there are some events about their -- to consider them as terrorists.

AMANPOUR: Of course, independent security experts as well as the U.S. administration do believe that they are part of Al Qaeda in Iraq and that they have an agenda that not only terrifies many inside Syria right now but also outside Syria.

Do you -- do you accept? I mean, are you saying there's no evidence that they are -- that they're terrorists, but do you -- do you understand that people inside Syria are actually very scared of jihadis and all these other people who come to join the battle?

SABRA: We can understand this point of view. But the question's still about the time. You know? Because now Assad regime, we consider all the guns of Syrian revolution, he will accuse all the guns with the terrorism. If that's what United States wants to see, I think, no. So we have to discuss this thing carefully.

AMANPOUR: And can the Free Syrian Army, the FSA ,can it actually win without groups like al-Nusra, because it looks like al-Nusra are doing some of the heaviest fighting and capturing some of the most important military targets?

SABRA: Sure. The Free Syrian Army is more and more and more al-Nusra and he can win.

Al-Nusra is only a part of 100,000 of fighters inside Syria and even if they are good fighter but also in the other part of Free Syrian Army we have good fighters and they are widespread in all over the country, from the north to the south. The revolution is not the al-Nusra and al-Nusra is not the majority of the revolution guns.

AMANPOUR: The document that came out of the meeting in Marrakesh today talks about chemical weapons and says if the Assad regime were to use them, that would be a red line. Assad regime says it will not use them. But let me ask you have the Americans told you exactly what the red line is and what would be the response if they were -- if they crossed that red line?

SABRA: Really, we heard that using chemical weapons is a red line. But we said also, what about other weapons? What about TNT which (inaudible) on the country? What about the jet fighter, the tanks, the rockets? Is that -- is that acceptable for civilians in cities and villages? And we are asking another question.

Shall we wait till Bashar al-Assad use chemical weapons to say or to behave towards him we think that this is the time to go directly to behave against Bashar al-Assad regime? Especially when the declaration today says that nobody can consider Bashar al-Assad regime as a --

AMANPOUR: Legitimate?

SABRA: -- government --

AMANPOUR: Yes.

SABRA: -- to Syria anymore. He lost -- he lost his (inaudible) --

AMANPOUR: OK.

SABRA: -- forever.

AMANPOUR: Mr. Sabra, before I let you go, are you saying you expect U.S. and other military intervention? That's what you're calling for?

SABRA: No, we don't need to see any foreign soldier in our country. This is very clear. We have so many soldiers, so many military forces. But we need weapons. We need special weapons against tanks, against jet fighter. We have enough fighters and Syria have already freed (ph) their lands. You know?

The northern part of Syria along the border with Turkey for more than 900 kilometers and indeed more than 40 kilometers is free, fully free. But we need something to protect this free area.

AMANPOUR: George Sabra, thank you so much for joining me from Marrakesh.

And when we return, I will ask the Obama administration's former point person on Syria where do we go from here if Assad doesn't fold? Before we take a break, look at this rebel fighter carrying his weapon and his son in Aleppo, scene of some of the fiercest fighting. Life and parenting go on. We'll be right back.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. We've just heard from a Syrian opposition leader on America's decision to formally back the group. So now we get the American perspective.

Ambassador Frederic Hof served as the U.S. point person on Syria's transition throughout most of the uprising, and he joins me now from Washington, D.C.

Ambassador, thank you very much for joining me. Welcome to the program.

FREDERIC HOF, FORMER U.S. SPECIAL ADVISER: I'm delighted to be with you. Thanks.

AMANPOUR: You heard me ask the same to George Sabra. What will this recognition actually do? What is it going to change on the ground?

HOF: I think in terms of the military situation on the ground, quite bluntly it changes nothing in the near term. But in addition to the military situation, there's a very important political dimension that's in play. And what it comes down to basically is the old expression, the old American clich, about you can't beat something with nothing.

There are literally millions of Syrians right now who are still very much on the fence as to whether or not they should support or abandon the Assad regime. No one has any illusions about the regime's incompetence, its corruption, its brutality. But people, quite frankly, fear -- many people, especially minorities, fear what might be next.

So putting a face on this opposition, actually being able to show the people of Syria what the alternative is, this is, I think, the most -- the most significant step forward in this -- in this recognition process. And I -- and I think -- I think the opposition is probably after these meetings in Morocco is probably going to be moving in the direction of a -- of forming a provisional government.

AMANPOUR: Right. So you talked about showing a credible face to the people of Syria. But you remember, the United States and other countries, you know, embraced the SNC a year or so ago, the Syrian National Council, as it was.

But it was deemed not to have followed up with a kind of materiel and help and organization. And so the SNC could not deliver -- I mean, could that be a risk as well? I mean, the U.S. had no skin in the game. And they didn't -- you know, they didn't deliver and they were deemed sort of irrelevant after a while.

HOF: Yes, listen, and this -- in this business, there are always big risks. As a matter of fact, in the case of the Syrian National Council, the United States and others really decided to keep that organization somewhat at arm's length. The kind of recognition that's been -- that's been accorded to the new opposition council was not given to the old Syrian National Council.

There were always profound doubts about that organization's reach into Syria and, frankly, about the relative weight of the -- of the Muslim Brotherhood in that organization. There was always, you know, there was always a concern that the Syrian National Council simply was not a broad enough coalition. And I think those concerns have been met with the new organization.

AMANPOUR: Well, are you surprised with the backlash against the U.S. administration designating al-Nusra as a terrorist organization? I mean, in Syria, they've done everything, including Facebook pages I mentioned.

HOF: Yes, I'm disappointed, but I'm not surprised. Look, I think the designation itself is intellectually defensible. It unmasks this Nusra organization for what it is. It's Al Qaeda in Iraq.

The core of this organization consists of people who, in the past, were helped into Iraq by the Syrian regime. Syrian regime helped them go to Iraq to kill Iraqis, terrorize Iraqis, kill Americans, contribute to continued instability in Iraq.

Now they're coming back into Syria. And this is -- this is turning out to be one of the -- one of the greatest biting the hand that feeds you operation of all time --

AMANPOUR: (Inaudible).

HOF: -- because they see an opportunity to try to take down a regime that helped them, but for other reasons, they don't like.

AMANPOUR: So what do you say then to people inside Syria who are saying, listen, nobody else is helping us. There's a vacuum. And these are the most disciplined fighters. I mean, they might be horrible as you're saying, but we're here being slaughtered otherwise.

HOF: Yes, look. I think it's understandable that people in Syria, even people who don't share the values of this thoroughly despicable organization, will reach out wherever they can. They will make tactical alliances. They are fighting for their lives against an extraordinarily brutal and terroristic regime.

I think -- I think for the opposition, the moment of truth with al- Nusra will come when the regime itself falls, when the regime comes down because these people are not exactly going to ride off into the sunset.

AMANPOUR: So how --

HOF: They're going -- they're going to be pursuing a sectarian agenda and I think job one or very close to job one post-Assad is going to be to neutralize these folks.

AMANPOUR: Which is always easier said than done, frankly --

HOF: Of course it is.

AMANPOUR: -- after the fact.

HOF: Of course it is.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you this, though.

HOF: You bet.

AMANPOUR: How do you think Assad will fall, somehow politically, diplomatically, with this new coalition? Or is it going to take a stepped- up military commitment, sending weapons, as you heard Mr. Sabra say?

HOF: My sense -- and I'm sorry to say this -- but my sense is that this is going to be ultimately decided through force of arms on the ground. And I -- and I do truly regret saying that.

Lakhdar Brahimi, the Algerian diplomat who replaced Kofi Annan several months ago, is making an all-out effort to provide an alternative, to provide a managed transition whereby Assad and the regime would step aside voluntarily and a sort of national unity government would be set up.

He is seeking -- and as far as I can tell -- he is getting the cooperation of the United States and Russia in trying to seek an alternative to implement what was agreed back in Geneva --

AMANPOUR: Right --

HOF: -- on June the 30th.

AMANPOUR: He's trying. But is there -- I mean, very briefly, is there any chance in hell that's going to work?

HOF: Is there a chance in hell? Probably. Is it -- is it probable that that's going to work? No. I think it's -- I think it's probably a very, very, very, very low chance of it working. I think it's going to be decided by force of arms on the ground.

AMANPOUR: Ambassador Hof, thank you very much for joining me.

HOF: It's been my pleasure.

AMANPOUR: And as the U.S. and other countries rally around the Syrian opposition, here in New York tonight, there's a rally of a different sort, an all-star concert to benefit the victims of Hurricane Sandy. One great musician won't be there, but his spirit and his music made it possible. We'll explain when we return.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, here in New York tonight, Bruce Springsteen and an all-star cast of musical talent will take the stage at Madison Square Garden in a benefit for Hurricane Sandy relief. It'll be broadcast to an estimated audience of 2 billion people around the world.

But imagine a world without such extraordinary concerts. Before Ravi Shankar came along, they didn't exist.

For decades, he was the face and the sound of Indian music, a master of the sitar, the ancient instrument that he made as modern and as vital as the electric guitar, whether jamming at Woodstock or composing the score for the Oscar-winning movie "Gandhi." He's perhaps best known, though, for his collaboration with The Beatles, and he even taught the late George Harrison how to play the sitar.

And in 1979, the two of them organized the first-ever all-star benefit concert at the same place and with even some of the same musicians as tonight. That concert was for Bangladesh, and it raised millions of dollars for victims of cyclones and civil war, just as tonight's benefit hopes to do.

Ravi Shankar won't be there on the stage tonight, because he died in California yesterday at the age of 92. But what he started lives on.

And that's it for tonight's program. Meantime, you can always contact us on our website, amanpour.com. Thanks for watching and goodbye from New York.

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