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Amanpour

Aftermath of Connecticut School Shooting; Can the US Ban Automatic Weapons?

Aired December 17, 2012 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

It was a slaughter of innocents as surely as the Biblical story, but at an elementary school in a sleepy town in Connecticut. It's hard to know what to say and where to start after something like this, even in a year in which mass shootings have become a national epidemic.

But now, surely, a line has been crossed, even in gun-loving America. For the first time, a school for the youngest of our children became a battlefield as surely as any from Syria to Sarajevo, 6- and 7-year olds gunned down along with their teachers.

Twenty children who should be getting bedtime stories tonight are instead going to be buried, their little bodies riddled with bullets. There are people here in America who will still insist that if only the teachers had packed guns, this wouldn't have happened.

And there are people who will continue their mantra that guns don't kill, people do.

Only the facts don't bear out those theories. People do kill, but these guns bring industrial strength to killing, semi-automatics and military- style rifles that have no business being off a battlefield.

There are emotionally disturbed people everywhere, but consider this: on the very same day in China, an attacker burst into a school full of children. Twenty-two were injured. He was wielding a knife, not firing a gun and no one was killed.

This weekend, President Obama comforted the victims in Connecticut like he has done now for the victims of mass killings in Colorado, in Arizona, in Wisconsin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Are we really prepared to say that we're powerless in the face of such carnage, that the politics are too hard?

Are we prepared to say that such violence visited on our children year after year after year is somehow the price of our freedom?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Mr. Obama hinted that it's time to tackle the politics that enables gun-wielding crazies. Will he do it and how can he not? America, the world's leading democracy, also leads in the body count from guns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Look at this chart. The number of gun deaths in the United States dwarfs the rest of the developed world. So are we living in the new normal? Or will this be America's red line?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: In the aftermath of this atrocity, one important person wielded his power to change his tune.

Conservative media baron Rupert Murdoch tweeted this: "When will politicians find the courage to ban automatic weapons?" He added, as they have done after a mass murder in his home country of Australia. And his tabloids, from the U.K. to the U.S.A. are saying, "Enough!"

Tonight I'm speaking to an even more powerful convert, a man in a position to change minds and change laws.

Senator Joe Manchin is a proud member of the powerful National Rifle Association, the NRA. It is the gun lobby that strikes fear into the heart of politicians and even grades them according to their gun loyalty. He's the first of the gun loyalists in the Senate to come out in favor of gun control.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Senator Joe Manchin, welcome to the program.

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN, D-W.V.: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: I want to start by playing a television ad that you aired during your 2010 campaign for the Senate. Here we go.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

MANCHIN: I'm Joe Manchin. I approved this ad, because I'll always defend West Virginia. As your senator, I'll protect our 2nd Amendment rights. That's why the NRA endorsed me.

I'll take on Washington and this administration to get the federal government off of our backs and out of our pockets. I'll cut federal spending and I'll repeal the bad parts of ObamaCare. I sued EPA and I'll take dead aim at the cap-and-trade bill, because it's bad for West Virginia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: What do you think, looking at that today in the aftermath?

MANCHIN: Well, first of all, in West Virginia, in my beloved state, it's part of our culture. We were raised at an early age knowing how to use a firearm and use it safely and respectfully and cherishing the ability and the opportunity to be out in the woods and nature. It's something who we are. I'm a proud member of the NRA and I'm a defender of the 2nd Amendment.

AMANPOUR: So let me then ask you, it is surprising, perhaps, that you have now come out and said it's time to rethink the elements of gun control.

What was the moment that made you rethink?

MANCHIN: Not so much as rethink it, but you know, who would have ever thought in America or anywhere in the world that children would be slaughtered? You know, that -- it's changed me. But with that being said, people are afraid to talk about some things that just basically should be talked about.

I don't know of anybody that goes hunting with an assault rifle. I don't know people that need 10-, 20-, 30-round clips. You know, how -- with that being said, but it's more than just gun control they're talking about.

The NRA, first of all, needs to be at the table. They need to be sitting there and we need to be working through this and looking at what we can and should be doing in America.

And then secondly, when you look at mental illness, how we as Americans treat mental illness and help people, how we try to educate the public.

AMANPOUR: How does somebody like yourself, who, in that ad, and now calls yourself a proud member of the NRA, you're now talking about the need for common sense.

MANCHIN: Yes.

AMANPOUR: What is the common sense than an NRA member can call for at a time like this?

MANCHIN: Well, basically, the ad that you just saw was a hunting rifle that most West Virginians, most Americans use. It -- most I've ever put in a gun such as that is three rounds in a clip. The maximum it would hold is five.

So as a hunter and a sportsman, that's been very sufficient for me to enjoy hunting and enjoy the outdoors. And I think we need to be looking at everything in a most reasonable, sensible way.

Everyone -- what happens now is you have the people who've always been opposed to guns for any way, shape or form. We're not -- I mean, the 2nd Amendment is very near and dear to us. And the people that are afraid, oh, now, if we start talking about this, you might take my 2nd Amendment rights away. Absolutely not.

AMANPOUR: So what can you do then to convince those members of the NRA and other gun lovers and gun users that having what you call common sense gun control and gun laws -- I assume you mean semi-automatics; I assume you mean assault rifles; I assume you mean the kind of weaponry that was used by this guy and in many of the multiple shootings in the United States.

MANCHIN: And there will be other people saying you'd think that someone as determined, as deranged as this person was, would ever stop that. But if it's not available, how did he get -- you know, he tried, and these were legal arms. He tried to get it himself and was denied, I'm understanding. We don't know the full investigation.

But I'm saying I'm willing to raise, willing to sit down and raise the talks to where everything is on the table. And anybody, any American that has any feelings whatsoever -- and when you hear of this horrible, horrible tragedy, 20 babies, 6- and 7-year olds. I've got grandchildren and children and I can't imagine.

And my heart goes out to the parents, the family members, the community, everybody involved, who was directly involved in this horrible tragedy. I can only imagine the grief, the pain. I don't know what to do.

I -- but to say that I'm not willing to sit down and talk -- and I can still be a defender of the 2nd Amendment, I can still be a proud member of the NRA. But being a responsible American, I think I can do all of that.

AMANPOUR: We do know that states which have stiffer gun control legislation do see fewer homicides. But beyond the facts, you say you need to bring the NRA into the discussion. I mean, clearly --

MANCHIN: They should be.

AMANPOUR: -- how do you convince them that they can have their guns, but it doesn't have to -- but they don't have to have the others in order to feel that their 2nd Amendment rights are being taken away?

MANCHIN: (Inaudible). And I would assume that they would have to see how do they feel, that you're not going to continue to take more of their rights away. You follow me? That's where that --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: But that --

MANCHIN: -- (inaudible) --

AMANPOUR: -- but that's paranoia. How do you convince the paranoid?

MANCHIN: You bring people to the table. It's a shame that we've gotten so toxic a political environment that today in Washington that you can't sit down and have reasonable discussions with reasonable people to come out to a reasonable conclusion.

And I think we can. And I'm hoping for the sake of our children -- you know, I'm a firm believer. My wife and I are big supporters of the Five Promises to Children that Colin Powell, his organization has promoted for so many years.

The second promise is every child should have a safe place in their life. Sometimes it's not always the home. Ninety-nine percent of the time it's been the school and we've taken that away now.

AMANPOUR: So if these children, these terrible victims, the innocents who've been slaughtered, if that is the red line for America, have you told the NRA, your backers, that you're talking out?

MANCHIN: Absolutely.

AMANPOUR: Well, what do they say to you?

MANCHIN: No, no, no, they've been -- we're going to sit down and have conversations. They know where I'm coming from. We've talked. And I think it's very important. And we all talk. They might -- we might agree to disagree, to a certain extent. But I -- these are reasonable, great people. They're basically believers in defending the 2nd Amendment of our Constitution, which I do.

AMANPOUR: Right. But as you and I know -- we've said it -- there's a 2nd Amendment --

(CROSSTALK)

MANCHIN: (Inaudible) -- yes.

AMANPOUR: And then there are military weapons that are being used on the streets of America and in the schools of America.

MANCHIN: And I have -- and I have said this, Christiane. I don't know anybody in my arena, as far as the sportsmen and the hunters that basically are using these types of weapons and not being able to enjoy the hunt --

AMANPOUR: But they freak out, as you know, and they start threatening politicians and (inaudible) slightest mention of any kind of gun control comes up, whether it's the magazines that contain multiple rounds, whether it's the semi-automatics, whether it's the assault weapons, whatever it might be.

So do you think that the NRA will get behind any kind of legislation to limit the real danger weapons, those weapons that you and I know have no business being outside of a battlefield?

MANCHIN: I would say to all of my friends that we need to come together and sit down and have these discussions. We need to. Its time has come for the sake of our children, for the sake of your children, for the sake of this great country of ours.

This is unacceptable in America to have children slaughtered in their own school where they should be protected, to have people to having weapons that can do this type of mass slaughtering. It's just wrong.

And it's -- everybody keeps talking gun control, gun control, gun control. We need cultural change. We need to look at all of ourselves and how we are, what tolerations we have today, how that the media basically glorifies some of this very violent action.

We sell these tapes to the kids. We sell these games to kids and they sit there and they watch them on their TVs or play them on their video games. And we, you know --

AMANPOUR: It is -- there are elements of real violence (inaudible).

MANCHIN: Then we have, because of our financial condition in our country, we can't afford the mental health that people are needing and the help they need. And we're cutting back on that. There's so many things that go into this.

I don't have that feeling of fear that --

AMANPOUR: Of not being reelected because the gun lobby will turn against you?

MANCHIN: Well, it's -- I don't think so. I really don't. I know everybody thinks -- these are extremely good people and we cannot villainize -- these are not -- these are people that have protected the 2nd Amendment, which I believe in.

And I -- and these are people that I've hunted with, that I do an awful lot of outdoor activities with. And I've never seen them professing what we have to have this type of a weapon; we have to have this many rounds, we have to have all this and that.

AMANPOUR: So you're committed to change?

MANCHIN: I'm committed to bringing the dialogue that would bring a total change -- and I mean a total change.

AMANPOUR: Including stiffer gun control?

MANCHIN: Including the reforms that we're looking at, as assault weapons and basically how they get into hands of deranged people, and basically the clips, of multiple clips, such as Chuck Schumer, moving on that, we're going to look at all of that. That's all on the table.

AMANPOUR: Senator Manchin, thank you very much for being with me.

MANCHIN: Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And just a short time ago, another senator, also a member of the NRA, Mark Warner of Virginia, echoed Joe Manchin, saying that he, too, will support a ban on assault weapons.

After a short break, we'll ask the question, what exactly does U.S. law say about the right to bear arms? Have gun lovers distorted the Constitution? We'll look for answers in a moment. But first, take a look at this all- American ad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Buy a semi-automatic and win a car. This is what reformers are up against, not just the gun lobby but the all-pervasive gun culture that Senator Manchin was just talking about. We'll be right back.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. We just heard from a legislator, a pro-gun U.S. senator, who said it's time to act on gun control.

But in recent years, practically all the activity has been on the other side of the issue. Since 2009, individual American states have passed 99 laws making it easier to own guns and to carry them in public. Just hours before the shooting in Newtown, Michigan passed a law that will allow those with concealed pistol permits to carry those guns into schools, where guns have been off limits until now.

One backer of the bill was Steve Dulan, a board member of the Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners, and he joins me now; also Jeff Toobin, CNN's senior legal analyst.

Gentlemen, thank you very much indeed.

Jeff, let's go straight to the 2nd Amendment, which everybody talks about in relation to these -- whenever these incidents pop up. What is the crucial line in that?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's -- there are two parts of the 2nd Amendment. The first part of it speaks of a well-regulated militia. The second part says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

AMANPOUR: Is it being distorted?

TOOBIN: Well, the -- for 100 years, the Supreme Court said this has nothing to do with individuals' rights to bear arms. But four years ago, the Supreme Court, in a case called Heller, said the 2nd Amendment does mean that individuals have the right to a handgun at home.

AMANPOUR: All right. So we've established that.

TOOBIN: Right. But it's not clear what -- how much more they have a right to, whether they have a right to handguns in the streets, whether they have a right to machine guns, semi-automatic weapons. But handguns at home, at least, are protected by the Constitution.

AMANPOUR: Well, even somebody as pro guns as Senator Manchin, who -- I played him that campaign ad that he actually fired a gun during, says that, look, we responsible gun lovers don't need assault weapons to go hunting with. We don't need magazines with 30 rounds or anything clear -- anything near that.

Do you think, Steve, that there will be some kind of effort, some kind of successful effort for legislation to come in on the extreme end of weapons and control them?

STEVEN DULAN, GUN OWNERSHIP ADVOCATE: I don't know. But if I could just take a second, because we've had some just horrifying timing in terms of our Michigan bill and this terrible event --

AMANPOUR: We certainly have. I mean, it's just awful.

DULAN: And on behalf of the entire Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners membership and board, we really need to express our sincere condolences and sympathy to the victims and their families.

AMANPOUR: So do you regret it? I mean, is it really reasonable to have concealed weapons in a -- in a school?

DULAN: Well, interestingly, I did a newspaper interview Thursday night just after this bill passed the Michigan legislature and I used a term that's actually fairly common, which is to refer to so-called gun-free zones as mass murderer empowerment zones.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: I know. I mean, I know --

DULAN: (Inaudible) Thursday night.

AMANPOUR: -- it sounds -- it sounds good.

DULAN: (Inaudible).

AMANPOUR: It sounds good. But the problem is facts don't bear up the idea that if the teacher was packing a gun or if, God forbid, the kids were packing guns or the -- or the people in the cinema in Aurora were packing guns, the facts, the studies don't bear out that this would have changed the situation.

DULAN: I've seen some that do, some studies -- my friend, John Lott (ph), did an exhaustive analysis of the Aurora incident and figured out that the only theater that actually had a gun ban in Aurora was the one that was attacked. The others actually allowed carry. And there was some evidence that that shooter did some research.

We also know of specific incidents where individuals with guns have stopped mass killers or attempted mass killers. Appalachian Law School, several years ago, even going all the way back to the University of Texas bell shooter -- bell tower shooter, there are incidents where responsible private citizens have either helped law enforcement or acted before they got there.

AMANPOUR: I've heard that, but I've also heard that this happened after the event has been committed. I mean, maybe they've killed the shooter. But again --

TOOBIN: I think what Steve is saying is illustrative of how the debate has changed in the United States in recent years. It used to be that gun control advocates said, look, let's just get rid of guns. And they found a responsive argument.

Since the conservative movement of the Republican Party has been ascendant in recent years, the idea has become that guns make you safer, that if more people have guns, if more people can carry them secretly, if more people can carry them in the open, we'll all be safer.

I think that's a very debatable proposition --

AMANPOUR: (Inaudible) --

TOOBIN: -- but politically, it's very powerful.

AMANPOUR: Well, even factually, it's not true, because so many of these statistics say that in states with gun control legislation there are fewer homicides. I mean, just the figures don't bear that out.

The real question, though, Steve, is -- and Jeffrey -- is this a moment for a jumping-off? Has a red line been crossed? How can we allow our societies to become this kind of battleground in the streets and in the schools? Is there a place for a national dialogue like Senator Manchin called for, saying, bring in the IRA?

The IRA -- the NRA.

Don't, you know, marginalize them. Don't vilify them. Bring them all in. Make them part of the solution. Is that possible, do you think?

DULAN: I believe in discussion. I'm very glad we're having this discussion. I think the remedy for speech is more speech and I think having a calm conversation like we are today is certainly important. As for predictions, I don't know. I don't make those.

AMANPOUR: You don't believe, though, in controlling them, right?

DULAN: I don't think it's possible. Therefore, I don't think it's --

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: What about limiting the number of bullet (inaudible) clip?

DULAN: Well, we tried that for 10 years, right? From '94 to '04, had zero impact on crime. There are millions, tens of millions of those magazines in circulation. They're ridiculously easy to manufacture. Guns flow across borers. What I'm worried about is --

AMANPOUR: Also flow from the U.S. across into Mexico. I mean, some of the gun violence --

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) from Mexico.

AMANPOUR: -- from Arizona.

TOOBIN: See, but I mean, this is the -- this is the attitude that is so --

DULAN: (Inaudible) I don't accept that --

TOOBIN: Well, but so I mean -- but that is so ascendant in the United States, which is that since there's so many guns out there, we need more guns out there. And that makes any sort of regulation of guns politically extremely difficult.

When you have the House of Representatives controlled by Republicans, when you have Democrats in the -- in the Senate, like Joe Manchin, who apparently today is changing his tune a little bit, it's very hard. And I am extremely skeptical that when the flush of excitement is gone a month from now, six months from now, this issue will again --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: (Inaudible) a tragedy for those who believe that some of these things should be controlled.

But let me ask you, you both know Washington very well. You're a lobbyist; you've studied Washington. You've written about it extensively.

DULAN: Lansing. Lansing, Michigan.

AMANPOUR: Oh, OK.

DULAN: Yes.

AMANPOUR: But you know politics.

DULAN: OK.

AMANPOUR: So many people now have come out and maybe it is in the flush of what just happened. But there are a lot more people who believe, according to the latest ABC polls, CNN polls, who believe that some kind of gun control should happen, and particularly when you break it down to specifics, like banning, as we said, high-capacity ammunition clips, banning semi-automatic handguns.

Is what just happened a sign of broader malaise and dysfunction with the society; more than half Americans asked think that. You heard President Obama hint that something had to change and should the price of our freedom be the slaughter of our children? Do you think in a second term he will actually do something to lead on this issue?

TOOBIN: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. You know, we have a very short attention span in this country. And you know, Aurora was a huge story with a terrible massacre during the Batman movie in Colorado. When was the last time we talked about it on CNN? It was largely forgotten.

This crime I think has galvanized people even more. So maybe the outrage will last a week longer. Given the politics of guns and given the power of people who believe as Steve do -- as Steve does, I don't see any change at all.

AMANPOUR: But, Steve, to all those people watching and just wondering why you hang on so dearly to the kind of guns that have caused this slaughter, why is it not possible to be for guns and against those kind of guns? Why doesn't that make sense?

DULAN: Fair enough. And it's -- the fact is that back in the '94 to 2004 period, when we had the so-called assault weapon ban, we had a huge --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: (Inaudible).

DULAN: -- problem. No one knows what an assault weapon is. It seems like what we're talking about are maybe semi-automatics. And there are maybe 100 million of those in circulation. They're not going anywhere. They last several human lifetimes with minimal maintenance.

AMANPOUR: But it doesn't mean to say you can't stop, you can't start somewhere.

DULAN: I don't think the start actually has any effect. That's how I analyze the information that I think about all of the time, is that it really does -- all it does is disarm honest, law-abiding folks, is the way we process it.

AMANPOUR: All right. Well --

TOOBIN: That's what I told you.

AMANPOUR: We will continue this conversation.

Jeff Toobin, Steve Dulan, thank you very much indeed for joining me.

And we'll be back with a final thought.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world without guns. In Japan, you can't buy a handgun, much less an assault rifle. Even the police are banned from carrying guns unless they're on duty. You can buy a shotgun or an air rifle, but it isn't easy.

First you have to take a class and a written exam. And then there's a skill test at a shooting range followed by a drug test and a mental evaluation. Assuming you pass all those tests, you file with the police, who run a background check. No wonder Japan has one of the lowest gun ownership rates in the world.

Does it work? In 2008, the U.S. had 12,000 gun-related murders. Japan had 11. More than double that number were killed in Newtown, Connecticut.

That's it for tonight's program. Thank you and goodbye from New York.

END