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Amanpour

Chuck Hagel Nominated as Defense Secretary; Michael Apted Talks about His Up Series of Films

Aired January 07, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

Enemy of Israel, friend to Iran? That's how a furious opposition is characterizing Chuck Hagel, the man President Obama has nominated to run America's massive military machine.

But today, as the president announced his nominee for the next Secretary of Defense, he cast it as a game-changer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Chuck Hagel's leadership of our military would be historic. He'd be the first person of enlisted rank to serve as Secretary of Defense, one of the few secretaries who have been wounded in war and the first Vietnam veteran to lead the department.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: The president had reached across the aisle to choose a Republican Cabinet secretary. But this moderate former senator's strongest foes are in his own party. Conservatives have locked onto something Hagel said in an interview seven years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK HAGEL, FORMER U.S. SENATOR: The political reality is that you intimidate a lot -- not you, but the Jewish lobby, intimidates a lot of people up here.

And, again, I have always argued against some of the dumb things they do because I don't think it's in the interest of Israel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And for that, this is the kind of fire that he's now facing from Capitol Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDSEY GRAHAM, U.S. SENATOR: Chuck Hagel, if confirmed to be Secretary of Defense, would be the most antagonistic Secretary of Defense toward the State of Israel in our nation's history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now for his part, shortly after being nominated earlier today, Hagel said that his record had been distorted, that he was astounded by it and he asked for a fair hearing in the Senate. His position on Iran has also drawn fire for opposing some U.S. sanctions and urging negotiations over Iran's nuclear program.

Tonight, I have a rare opportunity, to hear from both an Israeli politician and an Iranian scholar on these critical issues.

But first, here's a look at what's coming up later in the program.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): A once-in-a-lifetime experiment, a generation of Britons captured on film from age 7 up to 56.

MICHAEL APTED, FILM DIRECTOR: Tell me, did you have any boyfriends, Suzy?

SUZY: Well, I don't know. I haven't given it a lot of thought, because I'm very, very cynical about it.

APTED: What's happened to you over these last seven years?

SUZY: I don't know what happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): And a common foot soldier in Vietnam, a brother in arms, before the political war in Washington, Chuck Hagel won the Purple Heart in a real war.

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(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: We'll get to that in a bit. But first, President Obama's pick for Secretary of Defense, Chuck Hagel, is being painted by critics as an enemy of Israel and a friend of Iran. Is that true? Let's ask prominent Israeli diplomat Alon Pinkus, and Mohammad Ali Shabani, an Iranian academic in the United Kingdom, who travels frequently between London and Tehran.

Gentlemen, welcome. Welcome to the program.

Let me start with you, Mr. Pinkus. Is Chuck Hagel an enemy of Israel?

ALON PINKUS, FORMER ISRAELI CONSUL GENERAL TO NEW YORK: No, that's -- Christiane, that's total and utter nonsense. His record suggests the exact opposite. His statements suggest the exact opposite. His voting record as a United States senator from Nebraska for 12 years suggests the exact opposite.

I think that those going after his Israel record are after President Obama rather than -- rather than after Senator Hagel. And I think that these attacks have been vile, vicious, ugly and unfounded.

AMANPOUR: So why do you think it is? Is it just because he said "Jewish lobby" instead of "Israel lobby," or is it just because you think they're going after President Obama?

PINKUS: Well, I think it's a combination of a lot of people in Washington, who -- or across America, for that matter, who are still living in denial and refuse to accept the election results of November 2012.

I also think that using Israel as some kind of an issue, as a divisive issue, as a wedge issue, is going to win them media attention, as it evidently does, because we're having this conversation.

But in the end, in the end, this is about the Secretary of Defense of the United States of America. This is about what he is going to do as a policymaker, what he is going to do as an adviser to the president, what he is going to do to project America's power in the Middle East and vis-a-vis Iran. And we'll get to that. This has nothing to do, absolutely, Christiane, nothing to do with Israel.

AMANPOUR: All right. As you say, Mr. Pinkus, it does have to do with those issues. And we'll get to that in two seconds.

Let me first ask Mr. Shabani there in London.

You have penned an article, along with a colleague, that appeared recently in "The New York Times". First though, I want to ask you, does -- how is this choice of Chuck Hagel being viewed by Iran?

MOHAMMAD ALI SHABANI, IRANIAN FOREIGN POLICY ANALYST: The thing is, Christiane, that the enmity between Iran and the United States is it's institutionalized. It's becoming an institution. And in practical terms, the Secretary of Defense does not really have much of an impact on this institution.

In terms of war matters, for example, the president per se is the commander in chief. So whether you're talking about the secretary of state, i.e. Kerry or Hagel as Secretary of Defense, that's not really going to have that much of an impact on U.S. policy towards Iran.

It might send a positive signal towards decision-makers into Iran that we are open to less warmongering, more dialogue, et cetera. But overall, that's not really going to have a huge impact because, as I said earlier, this is an institution and this institution is decades old. And it's not going to change through the appointment of a Pentagon chief.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you both to listen to another of President Obama's statements while he was nominating Chuck Hagel. He talked about his war experience and it was quite dramatic in what he chose to say. Listen to what the president said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Chuck knows that war is not an abstraction. He understands that sending young Americans to fight and bleed in the dirt and mud, that's something we only do when it's absolutely necessary.

"My frame of reference, he has said, "is geared towards the guy at the bottom, who's doing the fighting and the dying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, Mr. Pinkus, because obviously every time we talk about Iran and Israel in the United States, we wonder whether there's going to be some kind of military response to the nuclear program.

Obama is possibly an end-war president, an antiwar president. He's chosen a reluctant warrior as Secretary of Defense. How is that all going to play if this issue of Iran and the nuclear crisis reaches boiling point again? Do you think it will reach a military point, Mr. Pinkus?

PINKUS: Well, I think, Christiane, it could very well reach a military point, and I think that both President Obama and Secretary of Defense designate Chuck Hagel are both realists. They are not -- and I emphasize -- they are not pacifists. They are realists and they are averse to the use of military power unless it is a last resort.

And I think it is well in the cards that this last resort will be waived (ph) in front of the Iranians which -- and I'm happy you raised this issue because the appointment of Chuck Hagel and the Iran policy that he may be involved in, advising the president and overlooking the Pentagon, the Iran policy is about American power. It is about relieving the tensions that both Israel and the Arab world have.

It is about the Sunni-Shia divide. It is about America's leadership role in this region. And I don't think that depicting it as a pro- military/anti-military, prowar/averse to war kind of depiction is doing service to the policy that we will see in the next year.

AMANPOUR: All right.

PINKUS: Both the sanctions and a diplomatic effort with Iran are on the cards, as is -- and the president, I think, said this many times -- as is the military option, which has not been "removed off the table", quote- unquote.

AMANPOUR: So let me ask you, Mr. Shabani, because you wrote about how to talk to Tehran. You used two Farsi words, Iranian words, one which means expediency or self-interest and the other one which means saving face.

How do you see this, with your dialogue from -- active inside Iran, progressing, is there any chance of this being resolved diplomatically, the nuclear crisis?

SHABANI: From my interaction with the officials in Tehran, their bottom line is that the United States cannot afford a war. They do not see a U.S. military attack as credible and an Israeli military attack as even less credible.

So we really have to go back and see the bottom line in this entire conflict, this conflict over Iran's nuclear program as many officials have argued before, such as foreign minister Ali Akbar Salehi (ph) in an op-ed just before the nuclear talks in Istanbul in April, that real issue here is trust. It's a lack of trust.

So, on this, we have a trust-building process. Even when we solve the nuclear issue, tomorrow there's going to be another issue. There's going to be human rights. There's going to be Iran support for militant groups in the region, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

So I really -- we think -- I think we have to really see the big picture here and try just to see the concerns of both sides and understand that logically, from the Iranian point of view, there is no fear of a military attack and it's simple as that.

AMANPOUR: Well, we wish we had more time to discuss this with both of you, but Alon Pinkus and Mohammad Ali Shabani, thank you both very much for joining me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And as we've been saying, Iran promises to be a major issue when Congress debates the Hagel nomination. Meantime, Iranians are facing a crisis of their own.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Take a look at this picture. That camera isn't blurred. That is air pollution. It descends on Tehran every year at this time and drives people indoors. It closes schools and offices. According "The New York Times", Western sanctions on imports have magnified the problem, as homemade gasoline is causing even more of a health hazard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And after we take a break, the hazards and heartaches and successes of growing up captured in a unique series of films from the age of 7 to 56, a master filmmaker's master work when we come back.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. The British filmmaker, Michael Apted, is an acclaimed Hollywood success with Oscars in James Bond epics under his belt. But he's also known as the man who put one of the world's greatest sociological experiments on film.

For half a century, he has tracked and chronicled the lives of children who come from sharply different ends of the British class spectrum. He started when they were 7-year olds and he revisited them every seven years until now. The latest edition of the "Up Series" is "56 Up."

Among the children featured are posh boys, John, Andrew and Charles.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I read the "Financial Times."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I read "The Observer" and "The Times."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you like about it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I like -- I usually look at the headlines.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And then there's the less posh, like Tony, from the rough- and-tumble streets of London's East End, talking about his future and growing up before our very eyes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY: I want to be a jockey when I grow up. Yes, I want to be a jockey (inaudible).

APTED (voice-over): At 14, he was already an apprentice at Tommy Gozardin's (ph) racing stable at Epson.

TONY: Well, I want to do (inaudible). (Inaudible) to become a jockey. I (inaudible) good enough. (Inaudible) that.

APTED (voice-over): At 21, he was on the knowledge. And by 28, he owns his own cab.

TONY: As you can see, Michael, the (inaudible) a kid (inaudible). And now it's changed quite dramatically.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: The latest "Up" edition has just been released here in the United States. And I spoke to Michael Apted about what keeps him and this project going.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Michael Apted, thank you for joining me.

You were 22 when you were given this task as a researcher to go out and select these people. How did you know? I mean, 22, what were you thinking when you went out to find these characters?

APTED: Well, I knew very well about the English class system. What's interesting to me is that I wasn't particularly interested in the personalities or that we didn't have time to do that. You know, we just had to get on with the job.

And they've all turned out great, you know, which makes me think that everybody's got a story to tell. If I was going to do it now, I'm sure I'd vet them; I'd audition them. I'd go through the whole thing. But these people just came forward at this time, and they're incredibly interesting.

AMANPOUR: And it was raw.

APTED: Completely raw.

AMANPOUR: So, as you say, everybody has a story to tell. We want to focus first on a young boy called Neil. And of course, you started this when these children were 7 years old. Neil was from Liverpool, is from Liverpool, and really one of the cutest kids in the whole program.

Let's listen to what he said when he was a child of 7 and then when he was much older.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEIL: When I get married I don't want to have any children because they are always doing naughty things and making the whole house untidy.

I always told myself that I wouldn't ever have children.

APTED: Why?

NEIL: Because -- because -- well, because children inherit something from their parents and even if my wife were the most high-spirited and ordinary and normal of people, the child would still stand a very fair chance of being not totally full of happiness, because of what he or she will have inherited from me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: That is so honest and so sad and he had talked about his nervous situation.

Tell me a little bit about Neil.

APTED: Well, he was the roller coaster in the series. I mean, you see when he was 7, you wanted to take him home, didn't you? And then when he was 21, he was working on a building site. And when he was 28, we wondered whether we'd ever see him again.

AMANPOUR: He was homeless, wandering.

APTED: That's right, and seemed in total disarray. I mean, there is a medical issue with him, but he's always refused to confront that. And you know -- but again, because of the miracle of life, as it will ever, when he became 42, he changed again and sort of restored himself. So he's been a real roller coaster (inaudible).

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: And now he's a church deacon; he's also a local politician in his -- in his neighborhood in northwest England.

Well, before we get to another character -- Suzy I want to get to in a second. But let me ask you about that.

You're not just a documentarian as everyone knows. You're a very acclaimed and accomplished filmmaker -- "Coal Miner's Daughter," "Gorillas in the Mist," James Bond, "The World is Not Enough," et cetera, et cetera.

What were you to these people? Were you -- you say you weren't judging them. Were you their confessor? Were you their therapist? What were you to these people?

APTED: Well, I think they would call me a therapist. But, again, it's interesting, because it changes the whole time. I'm 15 years older than them. And for the first three or four films, that's an abyss of time.

But as we got older, you know, we became collegial. And by now, you know, we're equals as it were.

So our relationship has changed; the dynamic in the interviews has changed. It's got much more intimate, much more emotional and whatever. So you know, like life, the whole series is a very fast-moving thing.

AMANPOUR: I want to play a little clip of Suzy, from when she was 7 and then -- and then growing up.

You had asked her about marriage and about having children.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

APTED: Tell me, do you have any boyfriends, Suzy?

SUZY: Yes.

APTED: What do -- what is your attitude toward marriage for yourself?

SUZY: Well, I don't know. I haven't given this a lot of thought, because I'm very, very cynical about it.

APTED: When I last saw you at 21, you were nervous; you were chain smoking. You were uptight. And now you seem happy. What's happened to you over these last 7 years?

SUZY: I suppose Rupert (ph). I'll give you some credit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So she is a happy girl now. She's got children. She said that she's glad she devoted her life to her children. She was cynical because her own parents broke up.

What do you think of Suzy today?

APTED: I think she's wonderful. And it's been a real pressure on me to try and keep her in the film, because she never liked doing it. And she's very difficult to interview. And then she formed a kind of email relationship with one -- with Nick, one of the others in it.

And they presented me with the notion that she said she would do it, but she wanted to do it with Nick. And I thought, oh, my God. Maybe I'll mess up both of them now.

But I let them do it. I had no choice, because, you know, as the series has got older, more mature, you know, they own it more. And to me, that's great. So they tell me what they want to do rather than me telling them and since it's about them, that's good.

AMANPOUR: Well, let's play this clip of Suzy actually saying why she doesn't like it.

(LAUGHTER)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUZY: I don't know what happened. I was quite adamant I wasn't going to do it. And then...

I don't know. I supposed I have this ridiculous sense of loyalty to it, even though -- even though I hate it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Why did she hate it? And why did Nick hate it as well?

APTED: For different reasons. I think she's a very shy woman. And there is a celebrity attached to it especially -- I mean, she lives in a small village in the countryside and all that sort of stuff. So, you know, it's kind of -- she's -- the beam of light is on her.

So she was just nervous about it. But she's incredibly valuable in the film, because she -- you know, she's a middle class girl; the rest of the women tend to be working class girls. So she's very valuable to me.

But I think Nick had a more conceptual issue with it, which he's correct. I mean, how can it possibly (inaudible) -- showing these people's lives with any sense of reality, when they have anything between 8 and 18 minutes every seven years?

You know, but he had the idea -- which he expressed in "56" -- that it's more symbolic. It's more iconic than a detailed look at people's lives. But it does stand for something. It does mean something.

AMANPOUR: It's a mirror, some people have said. And he says it's actually not just about our life, but it's about everyone's lives. And certainly watching it, you can really connect with these characters and what they're saying.

But you know, again, going back to why some of them didn't like it; a lot of them did, of course. Some of the critics, most of them, have said this is the best documentary we've ever seen; it's brilliant filmmaking. And others have said this is ethically troubling.

Do you feel you were manipulative? Do you feel ethically troubled by it? Do you feel you were using these people?

APTED: Well, not particularly. I mean, I let them air this on the film. I'm transparent about that, that people say, well, this is just your vision; you've cut it this way. You haven't used this; you haven't used that. Well, I mean, that's any piece of work. It's what we're doing now. You're going to use some of it; you'll use other bits of it. So someone has to make the choice.

And I think it comes down to trust, for all the adjurings about the people and sometimes their reservations. They have all come back. They've all stayed with me. They don't have to stay on it. And the program survives. And I think they see the value of it. They see that it's not meretricious. They see there's something in it. And I think there's a loyalty between all of us and a trust between all of us.

And I think it gives us all a certain pride in what we do.

AMANPOUR: Michael Apted, thank you very much indeed.

APTED: Pleasure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And tomorrow, I'll have the conclusion of my interview with Michael Apted. He tells me what he'd do differently now that he knows these people so well and now that he knows Britain so well, and also about surprising success this "Up Series" has found here in the United States.

And after we take a quick break, another story about the passage of time, vividly played out over 40 years ago in the jungles of Vietnam, where young Americans like Chuck Hagel volunteered to serve the country, how the lessons he learned and the scars that he received prepared him for the political firefight ahead. That's when we return.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, as President Obama said today in nominating his Secretary of Defense, never has the Pentagon been led by a common foot soldier before.

The story of Chuck Hagel has now become the stuff of legend. He and his younger brother, Tom, fought together in the jungles of Vietnam, believed to be the only brothers to fight side-by-side in the same unit there.

While on patrol, they were hit by an exploding booby trap. Chuck was badly wounded; Tom was also hit, but he stopped his brother from bleeding to death, and he helped him to safety. One month later, their armored vehicle struck a mine. Though he was badly burned, Chuck pulled Tom from the wreckage and saved his life.

And yet Vietnam also drove these brothers apart. Tom joined the chorus against the war while Chuck defended it. Eventually, they reconciled and as this documentary shows, they returned to Vietnam together in 1999 and revisited the very places they had both been wounded.

Chuck Hagel still carries shrapnel and battle scars. But he may need all his battle skills in the confirmation fight to come. He also carries the sure knowledge of the price of war, and that's one big reason why President Obama chose this ex-foot soldier to lead America's Armed Forces.

And that's it for tonight's program. Meantime, you can always contact us on our website, amanpour.com. Thanks for watching and goodbye from New York.

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