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Amanpour
Inter view with Cyril Ramaphosa; More with Michael Apted
Aired January 08, 2013 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
It was one of the great moments of our time, Nelson Mandela triumphantly emerging from a South African prison, one man transforming the evil of apartheid and racism into a moral beacon of hope, and by the force of his will and his magnanimity, bringing a peaceful transition to South Africa, not a vengeful or violent one.
By his side as he walked to freedom and along much of this journey was Cyril Ramaphosa, my guest tonight.
He was a young lawyer turned mine leader who led a defining 1987 strike against the apartheid regime. He then helped negotiate the democratic transition and to write the new constitution.
And for a long time, South Africa became the engine of the continent, economically, politically and morally. But fast forward to today, and the Rainbow Nation isn't shining so brightly. The gap between rich and poor is worse than almost anywhere else on this planet.
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AMANPOUR (voice-over): This horrifying video shows police firing at striking miners this summer. They had demanded decent pay and better working conditions.
The African National Congress, the historic liberation movement, has descended into what critics call "incompetence and corruption." South Africans, white and black, want to change, and they may have just got one. The increasingly unpopular president, Jacob Zuma, has chosen Cyril Ramaphosa as his new deputy. And the party voted him in just weeks ago.
Getting South Africa back on track will be a herculean task. But Ramaphosa tells me his country is up to the challenge. Many suspect this new post sets him up to be South Africa's next leader. In a moment, my in-depth interview with Cyril Ramaphosa.
But first, a look at what's coming up a little later in the program.
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AMANPOUR (voice-over): We conclude our look at the U.K. growing up on camera. It's won millions of hearts around the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) because they make too much noise.
(MUSIC PLAYING, THE BEATLES, "ALL MY LOVING")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And their hair style is so bad. (Inaudible) music, I wouldn't mind so much.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): The "Up Series," half a century every seven years.
And imagine beating nuclear swords into plowshares. When South Africa ended apartheid, it also showed the world how to end a nuclear weapons program.
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AMANPOUR: We'll get to that in a bit. But first, my interview with Cyril Ramaphosa, the new deputy president of the ANC. He's amassed a fortune in private business. But now he's leaving that world, as he says, getting out of his comfort zone to heed the call to serve his nation.
We know that South Africans are very active on social media and so we ask you to join the conversation on Twitter using the #amanpour.
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AMANPOUR: Cyril Ramaphosa, welcome to the program.
CYRIL RAMAPHOSA, DEPUTY PRESIDENT, ANC: Thank you. Thank you. Good to be here.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, sir, what went wrong, Mr. Ramaphosa, with the Rainbow Nation and all its promise? Do you accept that you have massive challenges ahead?
RAMAPHOSA: I accept that we have massive challenges. Not everything is absolutely where we want it to be. I characterize our situation as the glass is half-full. The glass is not half-empty, meaning that in the past 18 years, we have achieved a great deal. We have undone the ravages of apartheid in many, many ways.
There are still challenges that face our country: inequality, unemployment, which is -- which is very, very high, as well as all the other attendant problems, poverty.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Ramaphosa, the ANC has celebrated 100 years of being a liberation party.
And yet, by all accounts, and certainly by the critics of the current government and the current president, the ANC has started really a major assault on the institutions of democracy, whether it's the press, whether it's the judiciary, whether it's handing out money, you know, government contracts in reward to -- for loyalty.
Let me ask you to react to what I asked former President De Klerk, a man you negotiated with in the transition to democracy.
I asked him why even fellow anti-apartheid strugglers, like Bishop Desmond Tutu, said that the ANC is even worse today than the apartheid regime. Listen to what De Klerk said to me.
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F. W. DE KLERK, FORMER PRES. OF SOUTH AFRICA: I think it explains that those who say it's only the whites who are concerned about what is happening at the moment, it demolishes that assumption. It proves that moderate, well-disposed, serious black South Africans are as concerned about the loss of its moral compass by the present ANC leadership.
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AMANPOUR: So that was before you came on board. Do you agree with that assessment?
RAMAPHOSA: As I said earlier, the ANC has been the first to say that we have challenges. There are problems that we are facing. There are weaknesses within our structures. We need to reestablish the moral compass of our organization.
The ANC has bared its own soul, its own breast and has admitted a lot of those things. Now that, to me, is indicative of a party that is quite ready to start a process of correcting quite a lot of those perceptions, quite a lot of those things.
And some of them are really perceptions. But perceptions, obviously, in life and in politics, can soon be a reality. And we need to address them.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you about yourself. As I said, you are the undisputed champion of the anti-apartheid movement.
What you did in the '80s, founding the national union of miners, the massive mining strike, all those amazing things that you took part in to end the apartheid regime, to have that negotiation and transition to a peaceful democracy, to help draft and write the constitution, which you did, many people are very, very praiseworthy of your record.
But you do also come with some baggage, Mr. Ramaphosa, and that is recently, of course, last year, we had these violent incidents at the mines and particularly in one on which you sit on the board, where 34 people were killed; some 78 people were injured as they were protesting very bad working conditions and asking for basic restitution.
Emails that are published which purport to carry your messages to the board and to the police are fairly damning. You talk about concomitant action against these protesters. You call them criminal.
Explain that for me, Mr. Ramaphosa. Explain what you did, what those emails made -- meant and how you're going to get out of this bind.
RAMAPHOSA: Well, it's not really getting out of it. I have offered to go and testify to the commission that is -- that was set up by President Zuma to investigate this. Basically, all it boils down to is that prior to the killing of the 34 people by police, guns, 10 people had died. And some of them had died in the most brutal way.
And they had died in what I still see as a criminal way, because the way they were killed, policemen, security officials and, indeed, other workers working on the mine was so terrible it just begins to defy any feeling that anyone would have. And I was appealing to the authorities to take action, to make sure that we prevent further death.
And soon after I had made that call, clearly the police decided that all this has got to come to an end and obviously another situation unfolded. And the two situations are not linked. They are delinked, because I was calling for peace, I was calling for the saving of lives. And then the following day it happened in a most horrendous way.
A long part of my life was spent serving mine workers. And there is just no way I could ever have said that mine workers should be killed. There is just no way. It is -- it just defies any logic in me.
I've served mine workers loyally and I sought to improve their lives, the condition of their employment and that is on the record. And this situation that we were dealing with was a situation where I was trying to prevent further loss of life. And that is going to be the testimony that I will put to the commission when the times comes.
AMANPOUR: Do you agree that the mines should have better conditions for their workers?
RAMAPHOSA: I agree completely. The conditions of work and conditions where mine workers live need to be improved. In fact, they need to be revolutionized. They need to be completely changed because what we have now is totally unacceptable.
AMANPOUR: In the years since you left ANC politics and you became a businessman, by all published accounts, you have made a lot of money, maybe half a billion dollars, maybe more. How do you think you can bond with the rank and file of your people who are by and large poor? Is that a problem for you?
RAMAPHOSA: No, it isn't a problem and in any event, I'm not as -- I'm not wealthy the way that you are describing it.
AMANPOUR: Well, how much are you worth?
(CROSSTALK)
RAMAPHOSA: (Inaudible) not. But the members who -- the members who elected me are fully aware of my situation. But I have been and I am a businessman. And the ANC is about change. The ANC is a political organization that welcomes everyone.
It welcomes socialists, communists, capitalists, rural people, urban people, the poor, the wealthy, the professionals, the -- all of those people are all welcome within the ANC. What binds us all together is the objective that the ANC is seeking to achieve.
And those objectives are to ensure that democracy is entrenched in South Africa. We eliminate racism. We eliminate sexism. And we make sure that all our people have a prosperous life. Now I can make a contribution to that. And it is my conscience, my conscience that will be driving the actions that I have to take.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Ramaphosa, you sound very much like a person who would like to lead your people. Do you want to be president eventually?
RAMAPHOSA: The issue of, you know, of president does not even begin to arise. I have been elected deputy president. And that's what I'm going to focus on. That is my job at hand.
AMANPOUR: That's true, but --
(CROSSTALK)
RAMAPHOSA: And I'm going to (inaudible) --
AMANPOUR: -- everybody thinks that you have a long-term strategy.
RAMAPHOSA: (Inaudible).
AMANPOUR: That's true and I know you're saying the party line and I understand why you're saying it. But will you rule out ever running for president?
RAMAPHOSA: You're absolutely right; the party line within the ANC is that you are chosen. You never choose yourself. You never, ever raise your arm. The people choose you. I was minding my own business. And the people said we want you to come into this position. And I heeded that.
AMANPOUR: Do you believe President Zuma will head the ticket in the 2014 elections?
RAMAPHOSA: President Zuma is the president of the African National Congress. He is going to lead our party into the next election. He is going to be the face of our campaign and all of (inaudible) members of the ANC are going to rally behind him, rally behind him to achieve the victory that our people want us to achieve. The ANC will emerge victorious in that election being led by President Zuma.
AMANPOUR: There's no secret that President Mandela wanted you to be his deputy when he was president. You were one of the prominent figures seen in the photos as he walked out of that jail after nearly 28 years back in 1990.
What do you think now? What goes through your mind as you know that he's a frail 94-year old? He's just gone through one of his major health issues.
RAMAPHOSA: We are all obviously very saddened (ph) and we are extremely concerned about his health challenges. And we are blessed, all of us as South Africans. And this cuts right across the political lines and every other line.
All of us are just grateful that providence had delivered a person like Nelson Mandela in this nation at the right time to lead us out of bondage into freedom. And our task is to carry on with that legacy.
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AMANPOUR: And on our website, Mr. Ramaphosa addresses the accusations about President Zuma's spending public funds on his private residence and what he personally learned about leadership from Nelson Mandela about his bid, his failed $2 million bid on that buffalo.
That's all at amanpour.com. Much more of my interview with Ramaphosa right there.
And when we come back, we'll open the family album that tells the remarkable story of some unremarkable lives, lives that you'll never forget.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. Yesterday I brought you the first part of my interview with the acclaimed British filmmaker Michael Apted. He's celebration in Hollywood, but he's also known for his master work, the "Up Series," which chronicles life's happiness and its heartaches through the eyes of British children from the age of 7 up.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We brought these children together because we wanted a glimpse of England in the year 2000.
A shop steward and the executive of the year 2000 are now 7 years old. Give me a child until he is 7 and I will give you the man.
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AMANPOUR: That was nearly half a century ago. And what began as a unique exploration of Britain's class system continues to this day with the latest edition, "56 Up."
Yesterday I talked to Michael Apted about his ground-breaking work. And today we address what he wished he had done differently and why the "Up Series" was also so well received right here in the United States.
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AMANPOUR: Michael Apted, thank you for joining me.
MICHAEL APTED, DIRECTOR OF "UP SERIES": Pleasure.
AMANPOUR: Was this meant to be a series? Or was it a one-off?
APTED: No, it was a one-off. It was just a quick snapshot of England in 1963-64 to see whether the English class system was alive and well, because culturally all sorts of things happening: The Beatles, the Rolling Stones. There was this, in fact, permeating into our social system. So we just chose people from different backgrounds, had them talk rather than get professionals in to discuss it.
And out of the mouths of babes came these truths, you know. It was both chilling and funny at the same time.
What do you think about rich people?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, not much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four children (inaudible) --
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- themselves.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, they don't.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- rich children boast about themselves (inaudible) how clever I am (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a fact?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, but then rich children always make fun of poor children, I think.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes. They say, oh, look at that lovely little sissy over there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And they throw things at them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The poor child gets scared to death.
AMANPOUR: I wonder whether some of these stories made you sad as well, because when they were 7, even though from the lower classes, had aspirations. And so many of them have said, "I wanted to make a difference." I wanted to change things. I wanted to, you know, make my mark on life.
Do you think they did?
APTED: Well, it's an important question and a lesson, a hard lesson I had to learn, that I can't project my particular anxieties, my particular dreams, my visions of the world on them. You know, I've concentrated on having a career and, you know, doing well. And that's not all there is in life.
And I think when you look at "56", you see that people who've invested a lot of time and energy into their families have got a big payback. So it's something I had to learn, is that I have my life; I have my values. But they are not necessarily, you know, of any more value to anybody else than me. So I've tried not to be judgmental with them.
AMANPOUR: You said, "If I'd done it 10 years later," or several years later, you might have done things differently. I notice you have very few women in the film.
APTED: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You have only one black boy in the film.
APTED: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Did you miss the race and the different sort of -- sort of immigrant class? Did you miss the rise of women?
APTED: I missed it gangbusters.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) the teacher at school that his favorite ploy was, "All you girls want to do is (inaudible), get married, have babies and push a pram down the street with (inaudible) your mouth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But we only had a limited choice anyway. I mean, truth be told, I mean, we didn't have the choice (inaudible) private education because (inaudible) afford it anyway.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've got to say, girls, I wanted to work (inaudible).
APTED: When it started in '63, it was one program. It was a portrait of England in 1963-64. And it was unconscionable that a might be prime minister less than two decades later.
And you know, the ethnic composition of the United Kingdom was very, very slight in those days. So unfortunately, it was an accurate picture of England then, but had we been sat there, figure, oh, we're going to go on with our lives and do this for my whole career, then I could -- I could be held to blame for not having enough women. But I missed a big story.
AMANPOUR: Will you continue doing this? I mean, look, amazingly, nobody's died. And you have had really only one major defection. You've kept this group together. How many more? Now it's "56". How many more can you do?
APTED: Well, my slick answer is when we do "84", I'll be 99. And that'll be OK. Well, I always -- I just have two -- always I've said I'll stop it for two reasons. One is enough of them pull out, that it loses that wonderful group sense, or people don't want to watch it anymore. And neither of those have happened. So I feel, you know, I feel I have the right to go on with it.
AMANPOUR: Of all the characters you've met and you've documented now for half a century, who makes you the happiest and who makes you the saddest?
APTED: Oh, I can't answer that. I mean, they're my children, in a way, you know? I mean, obviously I have a certain, as it were, with Nick because we both left England; we both came to America to build new careers and we both paid a price for that.
AMANPOUR: Nick, of course, was a science guru, a science teacher and he wanted to be a scientist and that's why he came to the United States.
APTED: His story is something very personal to me. But all their issues are personal because there comes a point when I'm the audience, you know, I've made the film and then I look at the film and I listen to their answers about parenting, about marriage, about ambition, and I reflect on my life. And I think, well, what choices have I made? How have I run my life?
So I become as much an audience as anybody else would have. But I wouldn't want to, in fact, you know, say I like this one. We are a kind of family, in a way, you know. We -- some of us get on well; some of us don't get on well. I see a lot of some of them between times. Some of them I never see except that once every seven years. So it's very complicated.
AMANPOUR: You say you paid a price. What price did you pay?
APTED: I feel, you know, in our business, you know, you pay a price. You can't have everything. And, you know, I sacrificed family life to build a career. And you know, I paid a price for it, whether I do it differently next time 'round, if you know what I mean. I don't know. But I don't think everybody can have everything.
AMANPOUR: What did you set out to accomplish or achieve? And do you think you've done it?
APTED: All I wanted in my mature years on the film, all I wanted to achieve was to keep it going, because each film to me is a surprise.
I wouldn't have thought "56" would have turned out like it had. So I think that's the achievement and that's the aim, just to keep it going, not to preempt it, not to guess, not to play God, but just to try and present these people with their state of mind every seven years. And I think that's my only aim.
AMANPOUR: Michael Apted, congratulations.
APTED: Thank you.
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AMANPOUR: And as we've just seen, a lot can happen in 56 years. And in less than half that time, South Africa has gone from apartheid as we've seen to a fledgling democracy. It's also managed to quit the exclusive club that some countries are spending billions to join -- how to break the nuclear habit -- when we come back.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, we talked earlier about South Africa's struggle to build a strong democracy on the ashes of apartheid. And just as Nelson Mandela was emerging from prison over 20 years ago to lead that country out of the wilderness of racial hatred, South Africa was in the midst of another change that could be a model for the rest of the world.
Here's a map of one of the most exclusive clubs on Earth: the club of nuclear nations as it looked in that historic year 1990. North Korea, India and Pakistan would join later and of course, the world believes that Iran, despite its denials, is trying to become a member.
But look at how the same map looks today. South Africa can teach the world how to quit the club. By 1991, it had become the only country to dismantle and destroy its own nuclear arsenal. That decision, along with the end of apartheid, helped restore South Africa's international legitimacy.
It also made the Rainbow Nation a leading voice for nuclear sanity. And today, South Africa's weapons grade uranium left over from the apartheid era is being turned into medical isotopes that can detect cancer and other diseases: swords into plowshares indeed.
And that's it for tonight's program. Meantime, you can always contact us on our website, amanpour.com, where you'll see more of my interview with Cyril Ramaphosa. Thank you for watching and goodbye from New York.
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