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Amanpour

Selecting a New Pope; Italy's Deadlocked Election

Aired February 26, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour, coming to you tonight and all this week from Rome, Italy, a city and, indeed, a country on the edge of two cliffhanger elections.

One will decide the political leadership of Italy and the other will determine who takes the Roman Catholic Church into the future; 1.2 billion Catholics worldwide are certainly look for leadership that will move their church beyond the swirling scandals.

But the church is divided over whether it should remain in the conservative and traditional roots exemplified by Pope Benedict or move on to a more modern, progressive Catholicism still rooted in the universal values of the church.

As for the political race here in Italy, it is simply deadlocked right now, sending jitters through markets here and around the world. And I'll have more on that later in the program.

But first, to the latest developments on the papal transition. We learned a lot today; we learned that even after the conclave is held and a new pope is chosen, Pope Benedict will still be referred to as His Holiness and he'll take on the title of pope emeritus. He'll still wear white, but we're told it'll be a simple cassock, not, of course, the papal vestments.

And, we're told, he'll dispense with those famous signature red Prada shoes, perhaps in favor of a pair of brown leather shoes that he received as a gift in Mexico.

But, first, Rome and the world are beginning to say goodbye to Benedict the XVI. The pope, we're told, spent today in prayer, receiving good wishes from world leaders and packing up for his new life, because tomorrow will bring the final pomp and circumstance of his reign. Tens of thousands of people are expected to fill and, indeed, overflow St. Peter's Square for his final audience.

Now whoever is chosen as the new pope, he will have entered uncharted and choppy waters. So joining me now is John Allen, my esteemed colleague and Vatican reporter and CNN senior Vatican analyst.

This is, indeed, an uncharted dynamic, right? I mean, a pope, who's still live, with another one, his successor. What will that do to just anything here? Will it be an influence, an obvious influence over the way the church is governed in the future?

JOHN ALLEN, CNN SENIOR VATICAN ANALYST: Well, Christiane, Benedict has said that once he goes into retirement, when that bewitching hour of 8 o'clock on Thursday rolls around, he is going to be hidden from the world; that is you're not going to see him, you're not going to hear from him.

And I think you have to take him at his word on that. Now, of course, despite that, there are those who think that the specter of having a retired pope risks division in the church. You might have one camp loyal to the old pope, one camp loyal to the new guy.

Further, everyone knows, there's going to be a drum beat of speculation about a cult Byzantine influence he might be exercising. But I'll tell you, centuries ago, people had the same fears about retired bishops.

I think it was weird only the first time it happened. Today, I don't think Catholics in places like Washington or New York have a hard time figuring out who's in charge, even though the retired bishop is still around.

AMANPOUR: Well, you know, we all, sort of after the fact, when he announced that he was going to resign, recalled and pulled out of the archives the pilgrimage he made to Aquila?

ALLEN: He actually made two, to the tomb of Celestine V.

AMANPOUR: Exactly, the last pope more than 700 years ago who resigned voluntarily.

ALLEN: Yes, that's right, 1294, to be --

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AMANPOUR: Exactly. And I guess the question is, yes, it's presented as, you know, an act of humility, as a supreme gesture of actually leaving power at the height of his power.

What does it mean, though, in terms of governability of the church? What does it mean in terms of reform of the church? Does it need reforming?

ALLEN: Well, I think the first thing it means in terms of governability is that there is going to be a transition in government. I mean, look, I think anybody who has looked at Benedict's papacy over the last eight years, it was sort of the summary line of the assessment would be a magnificent teaching pope but a mixed bag as a business manager.

And I think Benedict the XVI would probably be the first to concede that. But he has tried to conduct this graduate seminar on the global stage about reason and faith and culture.

And while that's been enriching and provocative, you know, he has been serially distracted from all of that, trying to put out fires both here in Rome and in other parts of the world, some of it coming in on him from the outside, some of it self-inflicted.

So I think there would be a wide consensus there's need for reform. The hard part, Christiane, as you know very well, is defining exactly what that reform looks like.

AMANPOUR: Well, you just mentioned the hard part. So the new pope will have to deal with these hard parts as well as all the other challenges that a 1.2 billion ministry involves.

The current pope, Benedict XVI, said in a few instances that, you know, the various hardships in the church have, quote, "marred the face of the church."

What do you think he means by that?

ALLEN: Well, I think in the first place, he's probably thinking about the child sex abuse scandals. You know, even before his election, on the Good Friday before John Paul died, that it gave this memorable speech at Rome's Colosseum, talking about the filth in the church, the need to confront the filth in the church.

And I think everyone understood that as a reference to the sexual abuse scandals. I think he knows that this has been the single greatest blow to the moral authority of the Catholic Church in our lifetime.

AMANPOUR: So what does a new pope do to regain that moral high ground that you're talking about?

ALLEN: Well, I think in the first place it is very important -- and it's certainly important to the 115 cardinals who will be casting votes in this election, that the new pope had clean hands on the crisis, that is, that he be perceived as part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

Secondly, I think certainly what the critics of the church would tell you is that it's important that he completely the unfinished business from Benedict XVI. I mean, many people would say Benedict has moved the church forward significantly: first pope to meet with victims, first pope to apologize for the crisis, first pope to embrace zero tolerance.

But lots of unfinished business, principally the idea of not only disappointing priests who abused but also holding accountable the bishops who covered it up. Progress on that front would be something the new pope could achieve.

AMANPOUR: Now let's talk about the Catholic Church in general. We know -- and all the pie charts and figures and percentages show us -- that it's growing very fast in Africa and Asia, that there are challenges in Latin America. There is what the pope calls the secularization of Europe and in parts of North America as well.

What are the challenges in Latin America? You've got this sort of evangelical Protestantism that is weaning, apparently, Catholics away.

ALLEN: Well, listen, a generation ago, Latin America was basically a homogenously Catholic continent. Today, you've got these mushrooming evangelical and Pentecostal groups that are cutting into that Catholic base.

The Catholic bishops of Latin America did a study in the '90s in which they found they were losing 8,000 people every day to the Pentecostals and the evangelicals. Actually, more people converted from Catholicism to Protestantism in Latin America in the 20th century than did so in Europe in the century following the Protestant reformation. So reaching out to those people is a huge challenge for the church.

AMANPOUR: And yet in Africa, it's the opposite. Just the latest figure shows that it's grown by 21 percent at least.

ALLEN: Well, yes. And since 1975, it's grown by 7,000 percent. And no matter what industry you're in, if you've got a 7,000 percent growth rate, that ain't too bad.

AMANPOUR: That isn't. So now that leads me, you've been looking at papabile -- or papabile -- the papal contenders. Who do you think is up there as a front-runner?

ALLEN: Well, I think if you did a survey of dinner tables in this town, which is where that speculation is the most intense, you know, a couple of names you would hear as guys in pole position would be Cardinal Angelo Scola of Milan, who is -- sort of has the mind of Benedict but a slightly greater popular touch, and Cardinal Mark Willett of Canada, who runs the Vatican's powerful congregation for bishops, a very cerebral figure, a deeply spiritual man.

AMANPOUR: Do you think it must be somebody who's not Italian? Obviously, Pope Benedict is not Italian. Pope John Paul was not. But they were rarities in the history of the church. Does it -- would you think it'll move out of Italy?

ALLEN: I honestly think nationality is going to be a secondary concern. I mean, Christiane, you will remember from 2005, Joseph Ratzinger was not elected because he was a German. If anything, he was elected in spite of being a German.

I think we're going to look around and try to figure out, you know, who's the brightest bulb in the room and what passport he carries will be a secondary consideration.

AMANPOUR: John Allen, thank you very much and we'll be here together discussing and showing the world what's going on tomorrow at his final general audience.

ALLEN: Absolutely.

AMANPOUR: In St. Peter's Square. Thank you so much.

And we turn now to the United States, where one out of every 10 adults is a former Catholic, according to the Pew Research Center. But even though she is a progressive writer, Mary Elizabeth Williams hasn't abandoned the church.

Despite her outrage over the mounting allegations of corruption and abuse that we've just been talking about, the senior writer for salon.com has penned a personal essay called, "No Matter What, I Am Still a Catholic," and she joins me right now.

Mary Elizabeth, welcome.

So let me go straight to the point: despite your criticisms, despite what we -- what we've heard and what we've seen you write, you say that you are still a Roman Catholic. What keeps you in the church?

MARY ELIZABETH WILLIAMS, SALON.COM: What keeps me invested in the church are a couple of things. Number one, I still philosophically believe in the groundwork of Catholicism. I believe in the virtues of simplicity and forgiveness and tolerance and inclusion that were taught to me as a child and what I try to teach to my children as well.

But the main thing is, I think that, to be questioning and to call out hypocrisy and to eliminate injustice when you see is about as Christlike as you can get. So for me, I feel the work of those of us who still believe in the faith of Catholicism is for us to do what Christ would do, which is to make a lot of noise and roar and make trouble. That's what I think we're supposed to be doing right now.

AMANPOUR: You just heard me talking with John Allen. And, of course, everybody is looking at who might the next pope be. And will he be a conservative traditionalist? Or will it be a more progressive, more -- as some people want to say -- modern pope for the -- for the future?

What are you looking for and what do you think is going to take place in this conclave?

WILLIAMS: Well, I certainly don't expect a full 180 on a lot of the most contentious issues for those of us who view ourselves as progressive, but also Christian. I don't see a lot of ground being gained in terms of marriage equality or reproductive freedom.

What I would hope and what I think we see, based on just the stepping down of this pope, is that the church realizes that it is in a moment of extreme crisis and that it has a public relations on its hands, the scale of which it has never seen.

And something has to change. And I think moving forward from the leadership direction, it has to be right now, looking at and considering. And just the stepping down, just earlier this week of O'Brien in England says it recognizes that it has to have clean hands.

It recognizes that its leadership has to be moving forward in a direction that seems much more embracing and much more compassionate and much more empathetic. And that's what I would like to see.

I don't expect gigantic change. But I do expect a message that says our priorities are going to be different from now on and our priorities aren't going to be about scolding nuns who are talking about poverty. Our priority is going to be working with them.

AMANPOUR: Well, I just was going to ask you about the inclusion of women in the church. Obviously, these nuns who you're talking about -- and I've interviewed them on our program --

WILLIAMS: Amazing.

AMANPOUR: -- do feel excluded and so many women, actually, particularly in the United States and in Europe and other parts of the world, Roman Catholic women feel very sorry that they are not able to be elevated to the highest levels, to -- even to be priests.

So obviously this is a -- this would be a massive change and a massive step forward if it was ever to happen.

Do you think, given all your studies, all your writing, all your academic work on this issue, that there is a chance that women might see themselves priests and treated as equal citizens in the church?

WILLIAMS: I think -- I think women priests are still a long way away. But I can tell you that when I was a little girl, I had to fight and I lost the fight just to become an altar server. And when I now go to my church and I see girls up there on the altar, that, to me, represents an understanding and a little bit of progress.

And I think that what we see in parishes across the world, certainly I see in my own parish, is so different from what we hear coming out of Rome and what I would love to see in the future is more of a connection and more of a consistency between the work that Catholics are doing on the ground, who really care about these progressive issues, who really care about poverty, who really care about equality, who really care about family in real ways and what we hear coming out of Rome that is just this very strict, very dogmatic and very backward looking world view.

We live in a different world now, and I think that the church has revised itself philosophically in the past. There's no reason that it can't revise itself philosophically in the future and take an attitude that's just more encompassing. That, to me, is what being Christlike is supposed to be about.

AMANPOUR: You just mentioned some of the -- some of the issues that Catholics in the field work on, whether they're Catholic NGOs; whether they're nuns and others who go out into many of the poorer and needy parts of the world. We often don't hear so much about that.

Obviously, the narrative has been really dominated by the scandals and the abuses over the last, you know, more than 10 years now.

What is there -- is there a story to be told of these people, men and women, young and old, who are actually in the field all over the world?

WILLIAMS: I hope so. I mean, I think it's just natural and its human nature that the ugliest things get the most attention. And I think it's important that they do. I think it's very, very important that we keep shining a light on the inconsistencies and the crimes that have gone on in the Catholic Church.

I absolutely feel that it's very important that we keep the pressure on the church and its leaders about those issues.

But I also know that the quiet work of building homes that have been destroyed by hurricanes or reaching out to the poor or the way that the bishops, the American bishops and the American nuns were so critical of, for example, Paul Ryan's budget proposal because it was so hard on poor people.

That needs to be illuminated well. We need to have people understand that for a lot of us, Catholicism isn't about toeing some backward looking line. It's about living a faith that is about service and is about love and is about compassion.

That's what I would hope that more of us are doing and that -- that's the image that we can now present to the world as Catholics.

I remain --

AMANPOUR: Mary Elizabeth Williams -- that's good. Optimism is good. Thank you so much for joining me tonight.

WILLIAMS: Thank you. (Inaudible).

AMANPOUR: And as we look at these wonderful live pictures of Rome, the Vatican, just ahead of the pope's final public appearance at his general audience tomorrow, the church remains for millions an enduring beacon of hope and faith.

Take these German Catholics who are on the way to Rome to wave the Bavarian flag for native son Pope Benedict. They're probably already here now. When he gives his last public audience on Wednesday, they might be behind me trying to get into St. Peter's Square.

Over 50,000 people are expected to fill St. Peter's and overflow when the pope blesses them one last time from his Popemobile as he did here on a previous occasion. But while the Vatican rivets our attention, it remains a tiny island in the middle of Italy, where they held elections this week. The votes are in and the winner is -- gridlock, when we return.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program, live tonight from Rome.

The voters have spoken in Italy's national election, and the winner is: deadlock. Luigi Bersani, leader of the Democratic Party and head of the center left coalition had been the early favorite. But he ended up in a virtual tie with Silvio Berlusconi, Italy's scandal-prone former prime minister, who was removed from office in 2011 with the country on the brink of bankruptcy.

Mario Monti, the unelected technocrat, now serving as Italy's prime minister, barely captured 10 percent of the vote. And the big surprise was comedian Beppe Grillo, who ran an insurgent campaign against corruption, fraud and waste. And he won more than a quarter of the votes. It was incredible.

With me now to make sense of all of this is Lucia Annunziata, one of Italy's leading journalists and editor of the Italian edition of the "Huffington Post."

Lucia, thank you very much for joining me.

LUCIA ANNUNZIATA, JOURNALIST: (Inaudible).

AMANPOUR: First and foremost, did anybody, despite his populist theme in his campaign, believe that Beppe Grillo would capture a quarter of the vote?

ANNUNZIATA: No, in fact, (inaudible) because as you know, elite (ph) tend to not see what they don't want to see. So this is the difficulties of somebody who was there along, was making an incredible big campaign. But somehow the press and even people in the parliament, the political leaders, preferred not to see him till the very last moment. So it was a big surprise.

AMANPOUR: And what was the reason? I mean, obviously people here are tired of austerity.

ANNUNZIATA: Yes.

AMANPOUR: But what was the reason they gave it to a real maverick?

ANNUNZIATA: Well, I think it's a combination. It's austerity but it's also some growing resentment. And in this way, there is a sense of (inaudible) political and something unpolitical.

There is a resentment versus the ruling class because they feel that somehow while they are being sacrificed to austerity, the (inaudible) class, especially political elite, has kept the money, has kept money from the public (inaudible) keep squandering money.

Now all this is not true. But the feeling is the sense is shaking the country.

AMANPOUR: And that is a feeling, actually, that persists around Europe, obviously in Greece and other such places.

But the headline of the newspapers today was ungovernability. That's the winner.

What does that really mean? Because right now, although we know the numbers and who's got what in terms of percentages --

ANNUNZIATA: Well, it means that you have in our government, you know, you have to have a part in order to govern, has to have a majority, both in the lower house and in the Senate. Now the data you showed, they don't allow people to go alone. And nobody has to warn 35 percent, you know, or 40 percent.

So basically they have (inaudible) have an alliance with Berlusconi or -- and the Democratic Party. Or Berlusconi and the Democratic Party with Grillo. Now this is the sort of an insane, because Berlusconi Democrats (inaudible) have been fighting with each other forever. And Grillo is a very radical. So the chance to become (inaudible) an ally --

AMANPOUR: And doesn't he say he won't go into an alliance?

ANNUNZIATA: Well, he say, yes, no. I mean, the very latest development tonight is that the Democratic Party, Bersani leader, Bersani sort of offered an alliance to Grillo. And Grillo is the sort deciding to take it. Of course, (inaudible) works. Italy will (inaudible) very radical approach, both in internal issue and on European issues.

AMANPOUR: You say that about that coalition, but what about the rise, like a phoenix from the ashes, by Silvio Berlusconi again? I mean, look, we remember him as actually run out of town in disgrace.

ANNUNZIATA: It (inaudible).

AMANPOUR: So you think?

ANNUNZIATA: It is --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- interesting. How does this happen?

ANNUNZIATA: Well, first, Berlusconi has a real true leadership. You should see, he was like the last time they tested him in September, he was 14 percent in the polls. And finished 29. So it's pretty good. There's a big part there, so he has a big presence as a maverick himself, you know. You know, Italy has (inaudible) --

AMANPOUR: But what does it mean for the economy, which is the most important thing right now?

ANNUNZIATA: Yes. Well, the economy, Berlusconi has the tendency to make big promises. But the most (inaudible) of the promises he had made is to, again, go out of the austerity imposed by Europe.

And in fact, (inaudible) pushing further than this. He wants to break with Germany and coming out of Europe. Beside that, Grillo has this hidden agenda, too. So as you can see, Europe is really, really looking at us and --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- biggest economy in Europe, and obviously really important.

Do you think that, if this is still deadlocked in the stalemate, there will be new elections?

ANNUNZIATA: I think so. I think there is no question. I think now the possibilities to have either this alliance between the Democratic Party and Grillo, which will move it to the left (inaudible) so much to the radical, more than to the left of the platform of Italy, or if this cannot work (inaudible) yet another technocrat to have a period of reform and yet new elections.

AMANPOUR: So how do you explain, finally and briefly, how badly Monti did relatively?

ANNUNZIATA: I think Monti did well from a financial point of view, a strictly balanced budget.

AMANPOUR: Yes, I mean in the election, though.

ANNUNZIATA: Yes. Oh, in the election. He didn't do well because this was not his job. You know, he's a technocrat. (Inaudible) --

AMANPOUR: But he did well in terms of the economy.

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AMANPOUR: But not in terms of attracting votes.

ANNUNZIATA: (Inaudible) because he's a different -- it's a different thing. He's a professor. He's somebody is like to have (inaudible) politics. He can balance a budget (inaudible) cannot really run for politics.

AMANPOUR: Lucia Annunziata, thank you so much for joining me.

ANNUNZIATA: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: And you can see my colleague Becky Anderson's full interview with Italy's political insurgent Beppe Grillo on "CONNECT THE WORLD" tonight.

And after a break, we'll turn to a tragedy in the sky above ancient Egypt. Imagine yourself in a hot air balloon like the one that crashed today, taking 19 lives. I can.

I flew in one with my son not that long ago. The story of this tragedy when we return.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, while events here in Italy have grabbed the global headlines, another story, a horrifying one, from Egypt today, a hot air balloon filled with tourists hovered above the ancient city of Luxor when it suddenly exploded in midair and crashed; 19 passengers were killed.

It's the deadliest such disaster in decades, and it's a blow to Egypt's struggling economy and, of course, to all those families and friends who've lost their loved ones. The economy is so dependent on tourism.

And for me, it was a real close what if, there but for the grace of God go I and all of us who go up in these balloons. I'd recently flown in one of those with my son, Darius. We were in Egypt last summer, filming a documentary on the Old Testament. And the balloon offered us a bird's-eye view of the ancient temples, the Nile Valley, the Valley of the Kings.

The pilot instructed us on what to do in case of a crash, and we definitely took that seriously. But we were more intent on the breathtaking view and the once-in-a-lifetime experience we were fortunate enough to share. Little did we know how lucky we were and our thoughts are with all of those who perished and with their families and friends.

And that's it for tonight's program. Thanks for watching. Goodnight from Rome and we'll be back here with all the events of the Vatican tomorrow and throughout this week.

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