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Amanpour

Death of Hugo Chavez; Sex Abuse Scandals and the New Pope

Aired March 06, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

The paradox of Hugo Chavez, an undeniably charismatic leader, greatly loved and at the same time, bitterly hated in Venezuela. One day after he died, it was all on display; crowds thronged the streets of Caracas as Chavistas, his most fervent supporters, wept and prayed over his casket.

Draped in the Venezuelan flag, it was slowly moved through the capital to the military academy where Chavez will lie in state for the next week.

He was loved and hated abroad as well. President Bashar al-Assad of Syria called him a brother and a friend. Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, declared a day of national mourning, expressing his hope that Chavez will rise again.

But the Venezuelan leader's poisonous relationship with Washington was famously cemented in this memorable broadside against President George W. Bush at the height of the Iraq war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUGO CHAVEZ, PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA (through translator): Yesterday, the devil came here, right here, right here. And it smells of sulfur still today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Chavez on President Bush. And yet there was also this, Chavez ringing the opening bell at the New York Stock Exchange when he first became president in 1999. Now that he's gone, the Obama administration is calling for, quote, "a constructive relationship with the Venezuelan government."

Chavez left his country both better and worse off, easing poverty, unemployment and infant mortality. But the oil-rich country's infrastructure is in a shambles. Inflation and crime have soared.

This is how the Nobel-winning writer Gabriel Garcia Marquez (ph) described the man, "one to whom inveterate love has granted the chance to save his country; the other, an illusionist who could go down in history as just another despot."

Which one is he? We'll explore his contradictory legacy in a moment. But first, here's what's happening later in the program.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): It's not just about electing a new pope. A daring documentary demands real change at the top of the Catholic Church.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I felt sick and confused. Why would a priest do that to me?

AMANPOUR (voice-over): And America has a new spokesman in chief who isn't always speaking England.

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: (Speaking French).

AMANPOUR (voice-over): We'll translate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: We'll get to that in a bit. But first, what is the state of the Venezuela that Hugo Chavez leaves behind? Here now to discuss is the Venezuelan American attorney, Eva Golinger. She knew and advised Chavez and says that her staunch support earned her this nickname: the girlfriend of Venezuela.

Welcome to the program. I read that that is what President Chavez called you. So let me start by asking you, obviously a staunch supporter of the man and the -- and the revolution. You once called yourself a soldier for the revolution. Today, a day after his death, what is the state of Venezuela? What is his legacy?

EVA GOLINGER, FORMER CHAVEZ ADVISER: Well, Chavez is someone who has transformed Venezuela forever. I mean, he's not only transformed it, it's really changed the face of Latin America.

He's opened the door to new movements emerging, the rebirthing, really, of leftism throughout the region, of movements fighting for social justice of those grassroots movements coming to power, taking power. I mean, just look at Evan Morales (ph) in Bolivia, for example, a union organizer and a cocoa (ph) farmer. Whoever thought he would be president?

Someone like Chavez himself, who came from poverty and sold candies on the street, you know, lived in a mud hut, rose to the highest levels of power in this country. So that -- it's sort of the example of the dream that he fought for throughout his life of bringing power into the hands of the people.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, because you mentioned Ecuador; you're going to mention Cuba, maybe. But what about the countries that he pulled into his orbit with his philosophy and with his petrodiplomacy? What can countries like Ecuador or Peru or Cuba face -- or feel they might face -- now that he's gone?

GOLINGER: Well, I think, first of all, there's a misconception because Chavez is a very powerful personality, very charismatic person, larger than life. And most media attention always went towards him. He had an extraordinary capacity to garner that attention and to capture it and to maintain it for lengthy periods of time.

He was one of the, I think, expert communicators of our times. But in the end, what really has been going on in Venezuela is about a whole transformation of the country. That's why it's called a revolution, you know, changing every sector of society, transforming it into something better for the nation and for the people.

And so when we ask -- when you say something like Chavez brought them into his orbit, I say it's a misconception because it really wasn't Chavez bringing anyone in. It was a collective awakening throughout --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Yes, but I mean he was the savior of Cuba with his petrodollars and with his largesse. I guess I'm asking you, before I get into Venezuela, do you think that they are justifiably nervous in the aftermath of his death? Or will Maduro continue that policy?

GOLINGER: Oh, I think there's no question that Maduro, if he wins the presidency, which all signs seem to indicate that he will, will definitely continue his policies. He's someone who could definitely be considered a soldier of Chavez.

I mean, he has said that himself. He has said that this is now a role that he's been given, a new task that Chavez has assigned to him. He doesn't see it; he's not someone whoever aspired to be the president of the country. You know, he was a bus driver, a union organizer, a man of very modest background and a grassroots --

AMANPOUR: You think, therefore, he has the charisma, the same -- obviously, he doesn't have the same personality and grip on people's imagination that Chavez does. Will Chavismo survive?

GOLINGER: Absolutely. I mean, Chavismo, at one point, was focused on the figure of Chavez as, you know, the all-encompassing one.

But it grew and expanded to become this mass movement that, I would say, crossed the borders out of Venezuela into the world beyond and has affected countries around the world and people's movements, which have seen in Venezuelan inspiration, you know, a president who put as his priority the people and the people's needs, fighting for poverty, eradicating poverty.

You know, so, again, around the region, I don't think that most nations are nervous about what will happen unless, of course, you know, the candidate Nicolas Maduro were to lose the election. But certainly, Chavismo and the Bolivarian revolution will continue.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you about inside Venezuela, because you wax lyrical about all that he has brought. And we've mentioned that he has eased poverty, eased unemployment. But also there's the flip side.

There is the shambles of the infrastructure, epitomized by that sort of Potemkin high-rise, 30-story high-rise that became nothing more than an empty shell of a squatter camp; the crime rate, things like that. There are, would you admit, failures and challenges?

GOLINGER: Oh, there's failures and challenges, I think, in every country around the world.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- particularly, with all that --

GOLINGER: -- I mean there are empty buildings that have sat without completion in Brooklyn, New York. So, I mean, this isn't something that is necessarily a sign of some great failure of his government.

In fact, I think it's the opposite. It does show -- Chavez was one of the first people always to take responsibility for his mistakes and to recognize those errors and to call for his, you know, a Cabinet, the people that worked with him to correct them. And so Chavez did more than ease poverty. He cut in more than 50 percent. I mean, that's a radical change in the nation. And I think --

AMANPOUR: When you look forward --

GOLINGER: -- in 10 years could say -- could claim such an achievement (inaudible).

AMANPOUR: -- when you look forward, you also must see -- I mean, you are American as well; you live here in the heart of the democracy. And yes, he was elected and he won four elections, convincingly.

But as the critics say and as we know, there has been -- that's come at a cost. A lot of the institutions, whether it's the courts, whether it's the media, whether it's the opposition, whether it's the national legislature, whatever it is, have been systematically undermined.

GOLINGER: I disagree.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- but certainly --

GOLINGER: But that's not the reality in Venezuela.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- certainly what the opposition is saying and what --

GOLINGER: Sure, but that's their perspective. And they have the right to criticize. That doesn't mean that they are correct in what they're saying --

AMANPOUR: It's what a lot of people say about Chavismo and about the cult of his -- of his personality as well.

So I guess I'm asking you whether you think that going forward, will that sort of democracy that he says he always wanted, do you think that Venezuela can look forward to that? Being rebuilt? Or do you think it's going to continue to follow in the footsteps of sort of one man and his successor?

How do you see the future?

GOLINGER: Well, despite a lot of the distortion in most media outlets, particularly internationally, about what's happening in Venezuela, there's actually a very vibrant, thriving democracy. It's much -- a much stronger democracy than ever existed before in the country; more people are active and participate in their political process.

More people have access to media and to express themselves. More people are involved at a local level in their communities and his policies have created ways so that power has been passed down to, you know, the local level so that people in their own communities via models such as community councils, have their resources to be able to decide how to use them instead of it being some bureaucrat or some middleman.

So I mean, I think -- and more people vote in Venezuela in terms of percentages than they vote in the United States.

AMANPOUR: But there's many, many people who believe -- and these are international sort of observers of democracy on how these things are, that often the deck is stacked. But anyway, you've made your point of view on that.

Let me --

GOLINGER: For example, in Venezuela --

AMANPOUR: -- let me just ask you first --

GOLINGER: -- assign or designate Supreme Court justices

AMANPOUR: -- well, there are a lot of --

GOLINGER: -- done by the national assembly.

AMANPOUR: -- loyalists that have actually gotten very high positions. But be that as it may --

GOLINGER: As it is the case --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- be that as it may, what about relations with the United States? Obviously, Hugo Chavez made, you know, a lot of political hay and a lot of friends around the world, standing up to what he called the evil imperialists.

And it was noticeable that Maduro yesterday in his long speech on television kind of dipped into the Chavez playbook, you know, saying that the United States was destabilizing Venezuela, saying that the U.S. and others were poisoning Chavez, even, responsible for his cancer.

Is that -- I mean, first of all, what's your reaction to that, those words of Maduro yesterday?

GOLINGER: Well, I don't think that he's taking from Chavez's playbook.

(CROSSTALK)

GOLINGER: (Inaudible) learn from him. But he --

AMANPOUR: -- you believe that the U.S. -- do you believe that the U.S. is responsible for poisoning Chavez?

GOLINGER: Well, that has something that would have to be determined by --

(CROSSTALK)

GOLINGER: -- investigation. Of course, I mean that -- sure. No one knows the origins of that disease or how it interacts with our bodies. But I certainly don't think that the concept of there being some of kind of plot against Chavez is farfetched. I mean, it's distorted in most media outlets to be seen as such, as though it's some kind of craziness.

But remember, Chavez was overthrown in 2002 in a coup d'etat that was defeated 48 hours later by the people of Venezuela, the majority --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- many people (inaudible) that they could imagine that cancer is some kind of foreign plot.

(CROSSTALK)

GOLINGER: -- absolutely would hope that that's not the case.

AMANPOUR: But do you think, that at that point, there can be different relations between Venezuela and the United States? We showed, you know, the epithets that he threw at President Bush, but also throwing out the first ball; also ringing the New York Stock Exchange bell. How will Venezuela and the U.S. maintain relations going forward?

GOLINGER: Well, President Chavez and now Nicolas Maduro, the interim president and presidential candidate, have said always that they have 100 percent desire to maintain good relationships with the United States.

But those -- that relationship has to be founded on respect, on respect for Venezuela and respect for Venezuela's policies and Venezuela's vision and also on the principle of non-intervention.

The U.S. has been systematically intervening in Venezuela, trying to undermine the Chavez administration, funding with millions and millions of U.S. taxpayer dollars through U.S. agencies, like (inaudible) for Democracy, USAID, opposition groups that were involved in the coup, that have subsequently tried to oust Chavez from power through different means, including elections.

But still, I mean, the declarations coming out, statements coming out of U.S. spokespeople and -- often are much more aggressive than what we hear out of Venezuelans. So I think --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- yes, we've heard a lot of aggressive statements from all sides --

GOLINGER: -- that things will (inaudible).

AMANPOUR: You don't?

GOLINGER: No, I don't.

AMANPOUR: All right.

GOLINGER: I think that they will probably maintain them cold as they are now.

AMANPOUR: Oh, dear.

Eva Golinger, thank you very much for joining me.

GOLINGER: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: And we had hoped to speak with Maria Corina Machado (ph), an opposition lawmaker with a sharply different perspective. But at the last moment she was unable to join us from Caracas.

Now Hugo Chavez spoke with an evangelical fervor, as we all remember, and talking about that in Rome, the next evangelist for the Catholic Church will soon be chosen, the pope. A daring documentary pleads for change, not only in Rome but throughout the Vatican hierarchy.

And before we take a break, one more memorable snapshot of Hugo Chavez, back in 1999, he threw out the ceremonial first pitch at the baseball game here in New York. And as a boy, Chavez, we're told, dreamt of becoming a pitcher for the San Francisco Giants baseball team.

Ironically, his bete noir, as we've been talking about, George W. Bush, grew up a fan of the most famous San Francisco Giant of them all, Willie Mays. To think: they could have played on the same team. We'll be right back.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. And now turning to the papal transition going on in Rome, cardinals still haven't set a date for the all-important conclave. But a group representing some of the victims of sexual abuse by priests released a dirty dozen, 12 cardinals who, they say, shouldn't be the next pope because of their connections to the abuse scandal.

All of this is also the subject of a recent documentary, "Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in the House of God." It traces the scandal to the highest levels of church power. It focuses on the case of a priest accused of molesting as many as 200 boys at a school for the deaf here in the United States. And it asks hard questions about transparency and accountability.

I spoke to the film's director, Alex Gibney, from Rome last week, as Pope Benedict XVI was stepping down.

AMANPOUR: Alex Gibney, welcome to the program.

ALEX GIBNEY, FILM DIRECTOR: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: Your documentary, your film, "Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in the House of God," is out there now and obviously it's causing a lot of serious consideration in a lot of quarters.

What do you think about the timing of your film?

GIBNEY: I think it has the benefit of focusing people's attention on this issue of the sex abuse crisis, which turns out to be a systemic issue, one that's system-wide and in which Pope Benedict played a very big role.

AMANPOUR: When you say that, what do you mean exactly?

GIBNEY: Well, from 2001 to 2005, as cardinal, he ran the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. And in that office, he looked over every sex abuse case that there was all over the world. So he's the most knowledgeable person in the world about this issue.

Then, as pope, he presided, as more and more information about this came out. And he was pretty much utterly ineffective in being able to stem the tide. I think he kept hoping it would stop. He did make some apologies. He did blame some bishops. But he took no responsibility for the Vatican itself. So, in a way, I think this whole sex abuse crisis engulfed Benedict.

AMANPOUR: The case study you take is from St. John's School for the Deaf in Wisconsin. And it revolves around Father Lawrence Murphy.

And we have a clip here from Terry Kohut, who was one of the kids at that institution, who describes the abuse that he suffered as a young student. Listen for a moment and then we'll talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TERRY KOHUT, FORMER ST. JOHN'S STUDENT: I remember one afternoon I went to Murphy's office. And he closed the door and he told me to take off my pants.

And I said, take off my pants?

I was shocked. And I thought why would I have to do that?

And I was looking at this man in a black suit with a white collar. I thought to myself, he's a priest and I'm supposed to obey him. So I took my pants down and he molested me.

I felt sick and confused.

Why would a priest do that to me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Tell me what was the extent of that situation.

Was there any accountability?

What happened to Father Murphy?

GIBNEY: It was a terrible situation. This was a man who abused over 200 deaf children in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. And as a predator, he went after deaf children whose parents could not sign, so they could not even tell their parents what was happening to them. So it was a terrible situation.

But at the end of the day, there was no real punishment at all for Father Murphy, even though the deaf students and, indeed, one archbishop tried to reach out to then Cardinal Ratzinger to have this man defrocked; it never happened.

And so he was buried in his priestly vestments. No punishment at all was meted out on him.

AMANPOUR: Now, you don't have interviews with Vatican officials. And, obviously, there's a lot of charges. Obviously, there's a lot of facts, also, in this documentary.

What was your relationship with them?

I mean when you said to them, look, I'm doing this story, we want your side of the -- of the story?

GIBNEY: The response -- I mean, the subtitle of my film is "Silence in the House of God." Sadly, there was utter silence. And I not only went to the Vatican, but I also went to the most high-ranking prelate in the United States, Cardinal Timothy Dolan, and asked him over and over and over again to please speak to us.

And once again, the answer that came back was silence, which, I hate to make a bad pun in this case, was deafening.

AMANPOUR: I want to play you another clip from your movie. It's Richard Sipe (ph). Now, he's a former Benedictine monk and now a mental health counselor. He talked about the clergy's role in the scandal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD SIPE, FORMER MONK: The system of the Catholic clergy, for which I have great respect and to which I have given many years of my life, selects, cultivates, protects, defends and produces sexual abusers. This is an old, old problem. And if you follow this problem to its foundation, it will lead you to the highest corridors of the Vatican.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: He is still a practicing Roman Catholic. And it must be really, really painful for these -- for these people to actually say those kinds of things.

What are they hoping to change by cooperating with you in this film?

GIBNEY: I think they're hoping to change the system, because I think they see the institution as the problem. And it's really a problem of power. You know, they're not attacking the faith, and nor does my film. In fact, we go a long way in terms of trying to reassure people that faith is not the issue here. It's a matter of power and the abuse of power.

And so what Richard Sipe (ph) and Father Thomas Doyle and many others are trying to do is to get the church to wake up, or at least the congregation to wake up, because the church, they would say, is the congregation, in effect, the 1.2, I think, billion Catholics.

The biggest thing that could be done is to disgorge all the documents that the Vatican has in its possession, to let us see the files on clerical sex abuse.

Right now in Los Angeles, you know, finally, through lawsuits, the Archdiocese of Los Angeles is disgorging a tremendous number of files relating to how that archdiocese, and Cardinal Mahony in particular, covered up the sexual abuse of priests in that archdiocese for many years.

But it's a system-wide problem. Unless the church reckons with it, it's going to come crashing down.

AMANPOUR: And, indeed, there's been a great big outcry from many in the United States, many Catholics who didn't want Cardinal Mahony coming here to the Vatican, to the conclave, and electing the next pope. But he is and he will be taking part in that.

You are also a Roman Catholic. How does this affect your faith? And what do you hope will happen in a new pontificate with a new pope at the helm?

GIBNEY: In terms of my own faith, I would have to say that I'm a lapsed Catholic. And I lost faith in the hierarchy, the institution, a long time ago, even though I have my own personal views about faith. As the priests will tell you, you know, if we get them young, we never lose them. And I think I'm probably a classic example of that.

In terms of the next pontiff, the next pope, I can only hope that he reckons with the seriousness of this matter, this worldwide cover-up of clerical sex abuse, and does something to show all Catholics -- and, indeed, all the world, because this is not just a Catholic problem -- that they're serious about opening up the files and showing us exactly what has happened so that children can be protected in the future.

AMANPOUR: Alex Gibney, always thought-provoking.

Thank you very much for joining me.

GIBNEY: Thank you, Christine. Always good to talk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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AMANPOUR: And finally, John Kerry has just wrapped up his maiden voyage as U.S. secretary of state. And like anyone learning on the job, he had some awkward moments, like when he spoke to young Berliners at an Internet cafe.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY: In America, you have a right to be stupid if you want to be.

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AMANPOUR: Now that remark might have cost him some votes when he was running for president back in 2004. And back then, he also had to play down his international roots, not to mention his fluency in foreign languages. His mother was born in France; his father was the foreign service. And young John spent much of his childhood abroad.

But Kerry is now releasing his inner bon vivant. In Paris last week, he thanked his host, the French foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, in French, of all things.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY: (Speaking French).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Translation: "We just finished one of those marvelous French lunches that have been drawing Americans to Paris for centuries." Not high diplomacy, but you can't take the Massachusetts out of the man, for he quickly added, "and now I will speak in English, because otherwise I won't be allowed to return home."

That's it for tonight's program. Meantime, you can always contact us on our website, amanpour.com. Thanks for watching and goodbye from New York.

END