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Amanpour

Inmates Protesting Conditions at Guantanamo Bay; Berezovsky Death Discussed; Russia and Syria

Aired March 26, 2013 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everybody, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

Sheer desperation and hopelessness: that is how lawyers are describing some of the detainees at Guantanamo Bay prison, where more and more of them are joining a hunger strike to protest their conditions.

The U.S. government says 31 prisoners have now stopped eating; at least 11 of them have lost so much weight that they are now being force- fed. Some of these detainees have been locked away for more than 11 years with no trial and no end in sight, even though many have long since been cleared for transfer to their home countries or to a third country.

The hunger strikes started in February, when prisoners claim that guards searched through their personal effects, including their Qurans, which they protested. A military spokesman denies any mishandling of the prisoners' holy books.

But in testimony earlier this month, the Marine Corps commander overseeing Guantanamo pointed to a more fundamental reason for the hunger strike.

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GEN. JOHN F. KELLY, COMMANDER, GUANTANAMO: They had great optimism that Guantanamo would be closed. They were devastated when the president did -- you know, backed off -- at least their perception -- of closing the facility.

AMANPOUR: And, indeed, that is the very heart of the matter. And we'll talk about this legal limbo with a lawyer who represents two of the hunger strikers in a moment.

But first, here's a look at what's coming up later in the program.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Chemical weapons in Syria: could it also be a dealbreaker for Assad's best friend?

And --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I was gay, I would think hip-hop hates me.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): In the hardcore world of rap music, singing a new tune for same-sex marriage.

Then Africa's story was always written by Europeans until one African novelist changed all that with the stroke of his pen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: We'll get to that in a bit. But first, Carlos Warner is a public defender, representing 11 Guantanamo detainees; at least two among them are hunger strikers. One of them, a Kuwaiti named Fayez al-Kandari, has lost more than 30 pounds in recent weeks.

And Mr. Warner joins me now. Welcome to the program.

ATTORNEY CARLOS WARNER, PUBLIC DEFENDER: Thanks for having me, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: You have just come from Guantanamo. You spent some time there in the last week. What is the state of your clients and those on hunger strike?

WARNER: Well, it's a very dire, dire condition. In fact, just before we came in, I got a call from Guantanamo and have another report. The strike continues. The resolve is there. And Fayez (ph) asked me to tell the world, quote, "America should take off its mask and just kill us."

That literally -- this came in two to three minutes ago.

AMANPOUR: It's obviously very dramatic. And the fact that you've read me that statement leads me to obviously ask you, is, therefore, this hunger strike not so much about the issue of the Qurans or others, but because they feel that their plight has been ignored and they're -- and they're stuck in this legal limbo?

WARNER: That, I think, is what the fuel to the fire is. I think that the military changed command there and Col. Bogdan lit the fuel on fire by his oppressive search of the men and taking away the things that they had grown accustomed to for years, like isomats and -- which they use for insulation, glasses, this sort of thing. He took that away.

And in the midst of that also searched the Qurans and that became a rallying point. But the bottom line is that this strike can pass; the military can end it today. But that will not end the problem, because you've hit the nail on the head. This is about frustration; this is about the Obama administration ignoring Guantanamo in every way, shape and form.

AMANPOUR: Mr. Warner, obviously the military denies that it's mistreated or mishandled the Qurans. We're not going to argue that here. What I want to know is so what happens then amongst these hunger strikers, amongst the prisoners there are dozens who've been cleared by the United States for transfer. There is no movement. Why is that?

WARNER: This is idly -- you know, you're talking a public defender, somebody who comes from the Left, who believes and believed in President Obama. But there can be no mistake that he has completely ignored Guantanamo and he's laid it at the foot of the Republicans. He's blaming Congress. We can't close Guantanamo because of Congress.

Well, let me tell you, that's not the case. There's not one person in this administration that I can call and say I need to talk somebody in the White House about the hunger strike. It doesn't happen. There was one person in the State Department, Daniel Freed (ph) -- I'm sorry.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: You're talking about the official whose job it was to oversee the closing down of Guantanamo, whose office himself has now been closed down. Again, where does that leave you and these prisoners?

WARNER: It leaves them in indefinite detention for life. It leaves them with the prospect of the only way we leave Guantanamo is death. And unfortunately, I think the men are ready to embrace this. And I don't see the military backing off. We gave the military a solution and they refused to take it. So --

AMANPOUR: And the solution was?

WARNER: The solution was the men wanted to voluntarily surrender the Qurans. They would rather not have their Qurans than have them searched in the manner that they'd been searched. This would get them eating tomorrow.

Now the thing that is so frustrating for those of us who have experienced with Guantanamo is the military allowed this before in 2006- 2007. But this new command either is unaware about it or is unwilling to go that step to allow them to do this.

That would not solve the problem. But it would get the men eating again. And that's what we as habeas counsel and counsel for the men want. We just want them eating again. We don't want them to kill themselves over this.

AMANPOUR: What, though, if they do start eating again, are their prospects for their cases to be resolved? And, again, these dozens who have been cleared for transfer are either being refused by their own countries or the process of transport hasn't even been sorted out. What is the future?

WARNER: The future, as I see it, without work in Washington, which I am ready and willing to undertake, is indefinite detention. They stay there for life until they die, one way or another. That's the future.

But it's not insurmountable. It takes President Obama to stand up -- he mentioned it one time on "The Daily Show" during the entire campaign. And at the State of the Union, one time he said, oh, we're still committed to closing Guantanamo.

Well, let's stand up and work with us and we can do this. We can at least get the men that the government has agreed uniformly -- this includes the CIA, the NSA, FBI, DOJ, military intelligence -- they all agree those 86 men should be home. But Obama has no desire or will to push through his promise.

AMANPOUR: Mr. Warner, many have posited that the fact that there is no process in Guantanamo and there's a legal limbo means that actually these drone strikes are being stepped up because what's the point of capturing them? What's your position on that?

WARNER: Oh, I absolutely agree with that. It didn't surprise me that bin Laden was killed. And not that he shouldn't have been killed. The -- there's no way he was going to Guantanamo. And with Abu Ghaith, who recently went to New York, Obama said again, under his breath, we're still dedicated to closing Guantanamo, even though there's no one to talk to.

But that's a statement that nobody else is going in because it's illegal no man's land that nobody comes out of. And there is no process. I mean, this is not the segment to discuss the military commissions, but I would love to do so because that kangaroo court is not providing process to those individuals, the 9/11 individuals, or to Nashiri (ph).

So there is no process that exists in Guantanamo. It's designed by Dick Cheney and his minions to be exactly what it is. And a legal no man's land, where there's one way in and the only way out is in a box.

AMANPOUR: Carlos Warner, thank you very much for joining me.

WARNER: Thank you, Christiane.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And turning now to Syria, U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki- moon today appointed the head of a fact-finding mission to investigate allegations that chemical weapons may have been used there. While U.S. officials have said this is unlikely, the use of these weapons does represent a red line for the Obama administration and possible intervention.

Even Russia, one of Assad's staunchest allies, knows that chemical weapons would be a game-changer. Earlier, I spoke to Alexei Pushkov, chairman of the International Affairs Committee for the Russian Duma about the next steps in Syria.

But first I got his take on the death of the anti-Putin exiled Russian tycoon, Boris Berezovsky.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Alexei Pushkov, welcome to the program.

ALEXEI PUSHKOV, CHAIRMAN, DUMA'S INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS COMMITTEE: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: Let me first start by asking you your reaction to the death, the apparent suicide of Boris Berezovsky in London.

PUSHKOV: Well, there are so many things which remain not clear. One of the versions is that he is dead from suffocation. If it was not suicide, then who killed him?

I think that the British police is making different statements, which are, in a way, contradicting one another.

And it seems to be a complicated case, although initially it seemed that there were quite a few reasons for a suicide because Boris Berezovsky has basically lost almost all of his money; he has lost the hope of influencing the events in Russia or fomenting an internal revolution in Russia and he seemed even to have written a letter to Vladimir Putin in which he asked Putin to forgive him --

AMANPOUR: Well, I was --

(CROSSTALK)

PUSHKOV: -- and asked Putin to allow him to --

AMANPOUR: -- I was going to ask you about that. Can you confirm that? Because there are only allegations or reports that that's the case.

Was he trying to come back after years of anti-Putin activities?

PUSHKOV: Well, the press secretary of Mr. Putin, Mr. Peskov, has made a statement confirming that Mr. Putin has received a letter written in handwriting from Boris Berezovsky, in which Boris Berezovsky asked Putin to forgive him and to allow him to come back to Russia. So that's the only information we have on this score, but we don't have any reasons to doubt this information.

AMANPOUR: Do you think he would have been allowed back?

PUSHKOV: I wonder whether Mr. Berezovsky would have returned himself in the case if he knew that he could face a trial in Russia and could find himself behind the bars.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you about another issue that's engaging Europe right now, and that is the issue of the arms embargo to Syria. As you well know, the French and the British would like to see that arms embargo lifted.

If that does happen, what will Russia do about it?

PUSHKOV: As you know, there is a fear that these armaments and these weapons will end up in the hands of the radical groups in Syria. And it will be impossible to send armaments only to the moderate groupings.

So my feeling is that Russia will do nothing about this until it becomes clear what happens. And then you will probably -- you can probably come back to me with this question.

AMANPOUR: I just wondered whether it would make you up your arms to the Assad regime.

PUSHKOV: Well, you know that Russia rejects the allegation that it is arming the Assad regime. And I know that quite a few countries reject allegations that they are arming the opposition.

So I think that Russians' stand on Syria will be exactly the same, that there is no military solution, that the opposition today controls 20- 25 percent of the territory of Syria. The rest of the territory is still controlled by the government.

If the opposition gets weapons from France and Great Britain, will it change the equation? Will it allow to the opposition to control a bigger part of the country? And then how much? For instance, 40 percent? Does it really change anything in the equation? Will they be able, with these new armaments, to dislodge Assad? These are questions which cannot be answered today.

And we think that by sending armaments to the opposition, basically the countries who will do it and the countries that are doing this are basically pushing the opposition to more warfare and not to conduct any negotiations.

That's why we are very critical about this intention of the British and the French government to lift the embargo. We think that if armaments are being sent to the armed opposition, then the prospects of political negotiations become nil.

AMANPOUR: And finally, again, the issue of chemical weapons reared its very ugly head in the last week; many say that there is evidence that they've been used.

Do you believe and do you have any influence, at least on the Assad side, that he should not use them? Do you believe he has? And are you telling him not to?

PUSHKOV: I think that we should first have a very intense look at what happened. One missile with a chemical warhead was fired at some point. The --

AMANPOUR: Do you know that for sure?

(CROSSTALK)

PUSHKOV: -- Assad government -- it was done by the -- well, that was -- which was implied by the Assad government and it was debated in the mass media. I cannot say this for sure.

But I can say for sure that if it was one missile, I doubt very strongly it was the Assad government who did this, because there is no sense for the Assad government to provoke the international community with using chemical weapons in such a way, by just sending one missile.

So this scandal (ph) about this missile which was fired or was not fired just looks at me as a kind of attempt by some political forces to test the grounds. What will happen if the chemical weapons are involved? But I'm more than sure that it was not the Assad government who did this, because they have everything to lose from the use of chemical weapons and nothing basically to gain.

AMANPOUR: You say everything to lose, so I want to ask you, do you believe, then, that that, in fact, would be a red line and that would force other countries to get involved against Assad?

PUSHKOV: Well, I don't want to talk about a hypothetical situation. There are no confirmations that the Assad government is planning to use chemical weapons. The Russian foreign minister, Mr. Lavrov, has spoken a number of times to the Syrian leaders, saying that Russia would not welcome this and he was assured that chemical weapons would not be used.

And since that time, there was nothing which would contradict those pledges. So I don't think it is realistic today to discuss something which did not happen and I think will not happen.

AMANPOUR: On that note, Alexei Pushkov, thank you so much for joining me.

PUSHKOV: You're most welcome.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And after a break, we'll turn to gay marriage, which is the main story here in the United States today. Take a look at this couple, one American and one British. They had to choose between love and country. They chose love and they left the United States because they couldn't get married.

You can watch my interview with them at amanpour.com. And they're one of thousands of couples anxiously awaiting the Supreme Court ruling on same-sex marriage, receiving some unexpected support from the world of hip- hop. We'll explain when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program and to the major story here in the United States, the Supreme Court has started debating a landmark case on gay marriage, which a majority of Americans now say they support.

For the most part, American courts and politicians have lagged behind people and, indeed, pop culture when it comes to accepting the gay movement and same-sex marriage. But in one corner of the entertainment world, hip- hop, homophobia has strongly persisted. Now even that is changing.

A turning point came with singer Frank Ocean, whose very public coming out last year stunned the music world. And now my next guest, the rapper Macklemore, has created a sensation with his gay rights anthem, "Same Love." Take a look and listen to those lyrics.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MACKLEMORE: If I was gay, I would think hip-hop hates me Have you read the YouTube comments lately? "Man, that's gay," gets dropped on me daily We become so numb to what we're saying It's the same hate that's caused wars from religion Gender to skin color, the complexion of your pigment The same fight that led people to walk outs and sit-ins It's human rights for everybody, there is no difference! Live on and be yourself I might not be the same, but that's not important No freedom till we're equal, damn right I support it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Ben Haggerty, welcome to the program. You are also better known to all your fans as Macklemore, the music hip-hop artist and star.

What is it that has led, first and foremost, to write that song?

BEN HAGGERTY, "MACKLEMORE," HIP-HOP ARTIST: "Same Love" came about actually from reading an article about a 13-year-old boy that had committed suicide after being ridiculed in school. And his teachers didn't do anything; his classmates teased him. No one really stuck up for him. And eventually ended his own life at 13 years old.

And I heard this story and you know, certain news stories just affect you on a personal level. And it was one of those that really resonated with me. And I knew that I needed to write something about it.

AMANPOUR: You --

HAGGERTY: I didn't know how to do it.

AMANPOUR: Ben, you yourself are not gay, but you say it affected you on a personal level. How is that?

HAGGERTY: Yes. I grew up with two gay uncles, a gay godfather; I grew up in the Catholic Church and I grew up in a very gay area of Seattle, one of the most populated gay areas on the entire West Coast.

And then also being a member of the hip-hop community, so which is stereotypically very homophobic for the most part, has been throughout the last 20 years.

AMANPOUR: I wanted to ask you about that, because of course, everybody's amazed. It's why we're interviewing you. Why is it that the hip-hop community is known to be so homophobic? And why is it that you've decided to break with that? And have you done it as a challenge?

HAGGERTY: You know, it's tough to really pinpoint why there's been so much homophobia in hip-hop. I think that it's a very masculine, testosterone-driven art form. And there's not -- you know, it stems back to religion; it stems back to our culture. And it's tough to really pinpoint why it is homophobic.

I think that, you know, our manhood is so at the forefront of what it means to be a rapper and to challenge other people's manhood. And there's something tied up in that. But for me personally it was about holding myself accountable, about holding my community accountability and really opening up a dialogue so that people could have a conversation around the issue of homophobia.

AMANPOUR: And do you think what you've done in terms of this song, what you've done in terms of speaking out, of Frank Ocean coming out so publicly, do you think that will be a game-changer, not just in our society, but in your world, in the hip-hop world?

HAGGERTY: Yes, I think that in this last year, I wrote this song a year ago. And in the last year, I have seen tremendous progress on a civil rights level. And I think that, you know, music has the power to change people, to change the way that we think, to change the topics of conversation that we're constantly having on a day-to-day basis.

And people like Frank Ocean and Barack Obama, there's been a certain level of courage that has come out in the last year that I haven't seen previously. And I think that really what has been has facilitated an open discussion and through those discussions, people have the power to change their viewpoints and lessen the fear that has been passed on from generation to generation around this issue.

AMANPOUR: So I'm talking to you, Ben Haggerty, but you are also the hip-hop star. Does this mean that you will continue this? Or is this a one-off? Are you going to be more political? Are you going to write more songs about this? Or is this just your art form now and your statement now?

HAGGERTY: I think that there's a long way to go on this issue. I mean, obviously what's happening in the Supreme Court this week, but really just overall, our tolerance, our level of compassion for what we don't understand necessarily as Americans. We're so fearful. There's been a longstanding lineage of hate and prejudice amongst -- against the gay people.

And I think that there's a long way to go. So if I see injustice, then I want to speak about it, whether it's this issue, another social issue, if it's something that hits me on a personal level, then I feel like it's my job to speak up against it. And this is one of those issues. And we have a long way to go as a country.

AMANPOUR: Ben Haggerty, thank you so much for joining us. And I must say my 13-year-old son thought it's incredibly cool that I'm interviewing you today. And when he hears --

HAGGERTY: Beautiful.

AMANPOUR: -- what you're saying about justice and civil rights, I think it's a great lesson for the young people. Thank you very much indeed.

HAGGERTY: Thank you, Christiane. Appreciate it.

AMANPOUR: And we'll be back with a final thought after this.

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AMANPOUR: And finally, how one person really can change the world. A young Nigerian named Chinua Achebe did just that back in the 1950s with the publication of his first novel, "Things Fall Apart." It was the first time Africans were portrayed not through a Western prism, but through the eyes of an African author.

Nelson Mandela read his books in prison and has called him a writer, quote, "in whose company the prison walls fell down." Chinua Achebe died last week at the age of 82. In his later years, he taught at Brown University here in the United States and they've posted an online tribute.

And you'll find a link to it on my Twitter account @Camanpour. And that's it for tonight's program. Thanks so much for watching. Goodbye from New York.

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