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Amanpour

Latest Crisis in Egypt; North Korean War Drums

Aired April 01, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

Tonight, war drums beating in North Korea. We get the real story from the Pentagon.

But first, the latest crisis in the new Egypt, which seems to lurch from one to another at alarming speed. Severe economic woes, law and order problems, divisions and discontent over the new constitution, assault on women and on their rights.

Now with all of that, it is a wonder that Egypt's authorities have time to lay into a satirical TV host. But that is exactly what's happening right now.

And it's not just about one man. It's emblematic of where Egypt's revolution lies. And sadly, it is fodder for a thousand I-told-you-sos, from those who never believed the Muslim Brotherhood would usher in real democracy.

Hero of the revolution, Dr. Bassem Youssef, became the country's own Jon Stewart, even appearing on his American program. He felt free to poke fun at his own president and the system.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BASSEM YOUSSEF, EGYPTIAN SATIRIST, "EGYPT'S JON STEWART" (from captions): This declaration put all powers in his hands. The president now has the legislative, the executive and is giving a cold shoulder to the judiciary.

(LAUGHTER)

YOUSSEF: Those are the right decisions. A cut in the face is irreversible. Decrees issued do not bounce back. That's why he's no longer called President Morsi. His name is SuperMorsi.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And when I talked to him back in December for the first time, I asked him how the government was responding to this sharp commentary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YOUSSEF: But I think there -- the president and everybody else is accepting it quite well.

And I think this is actually the best time to have a political satire program in Egypt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Wrong; they are not reacting well. Youssef turned himself in to the prosecutor's office yesterday after an arrest warrant was issued for him Saturday for allegedly insulting Islam and President Mohammed Morsi. Crowds of fans chanted his name as he arrived in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Now he was questioned for five hours before being released on more than $2,000 bail. So much for free speech and the many other democratic promises from the Muslim Brotherhood. In a moment, my exclusive interview with the man in the crosshairs. But first, a look at what's coming up later in the program.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): North Korea is again threatening to blow up the United States. Is this fact or fakery?

And Pakistan's former strongman has returned from years in exile. Can he tweet his way back to the top?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: We'll get to that in a bit. But first, my exclusive interview with Egyptian satirist, Bassem Youssef. I spoke to him a short time ago from his studio in Cairo.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Bassem Youssef, welcome to the program. Thank you for joining me again.

YOUSSEF: Thank you very much. Glad to be here.

AMANPOUR: Bassem, you have just undergone five hours of interrogation. What was it like? What did they ask you?

YOUSSEF: Well, because what I present is visual, it's video, these are like episodes. So basically we were going through the punch lines that were considered by others as an insult to the president or as some sort of being in contempt to the Islamic religion. So we were basically answering questions, line by line, phrase by phrase and joke by joke.

AMANPOUR: And how did they take it? I mean, look, Bassem, the last time I interviewed you was in December. And you said to me on this program that, yes, President Morsi and the powers that be seem to like it all so far, that this is the best time to have a satirical program in Egypt.

Are you eating your words or do you still believe that to be the case?

YOUSSEF: No, no, no, I mean, first of all, it is the best time to have a political satire show in Egypt because everything that's happening around us is surreal. I mean, if you don't make fun of it, you'll just like wither away and die. I mean, that's your only option.

The -- maybe President Morsi still likes my program. I mean, that was, of course, an assumption; but the problem is that it's not just a problem of President Morsi. It's the problem of the people who are basically behind the power, the Muslim Brotherhood.

Before -- I mean, when I went along with Jon Stewart on all my interviews, I said if democracy came -- got the Muslim Brotherhood in power, they should have a chance. And I still stand by my words. But the thing is if they have a chance in a truly democratically elected system, after revolution, they need to shape up and they need to step up.

And all what we have seen so far is basically the same old game and the business as usual, persecuting (ph) people who -- with freedom of speech.

AMANPOUR: Do you think the revolution is going backwards?

YOUSSEF: Oh, the revolution have gone backwards so long ago.

(LAUGHTER)

YOUSSEF: No, I've -- I mean, it's -- I think it's a phase that any revolution would -- a guy should pass by. And basically the good thing about the revolution that we need to -- people to show up for their words (ph). They need to step up.

And now it is the time for the political Islamic powers to actually step up and show us if they're actually truly moderate and they're truly democratic and they believe in democracy.

AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you, because, look, they've accused you of not only insulting the president but also, you know, partaking in public disorder by your satire programs and also insulting Islam. How worried are you about the seriousness of those charges?

YOUSSEF: I'm not worried at all, because I'm a Muslim; I'm a practicing Muslim. I -- it's all the same, a proud Egyptian, I'm a proud Muslim. So it's basically -- it's a -- it is some sort of an accusation that comes from the time of the Inquisition.

So this is a modern-time Inquisition where they hold people for their words and they use holy reasons to put them in jail. So I'm not worried, because I have not done anything to insult my religion, which I'm proud of. And there are some people who want to make it as if it is a fight or a struggle between secularists and Muslims. This is not true.

I'm a -- many people like me, who are practicing Muslims; they are moderate and they don't like the people who represents what they call political Islam. I mean, Islam is a wonderful religion; it's a great religion, a peaceful religion.

And there's some other people who claim to be the sole representatives of Islam. They are the ones who are actually giving a bad image and they're basically insulting their image of Islam. So it's not like a infidels versus Islam war.

AMANPOUR: -- What are the specific things that you are alleged to have done? How did you insult the president or Islam according to these charges?

YOUSSEF: Specifically, I think about insulting the president there was a couple of punch lines, basically commenting on his speeches, which, as I think it was written, that people felt extremely affected psychologically to see their president being insulted, and that would actually affect our status throughout the world.

AMANPOUR: Are you intimidated by this, five hours of interrogation, more than $2,000 in bail, possible trial, who knows what next?

Are you changing the tone of your show?

YOUSSEF: The tone of my show is actually getting higher and higher and higher. And I'm not intimidated; I'm just exhausted by this.

So I'm not going to let this drain me. I'm just going to continue and continue with the show, continue with the same high tone of the show. We're not going to back down, we're not going to actually -- we're not going to -- we're not going to relax about what we -- we're going to have fun doing it, as usual.

AMANPOUR: President Morsi's office says that the public prosecutor operates independently of the presidency and that he, President Morsi, respects free speech. Do you believe that?

YOUSSEF: Well, again, if they said that, I believe it. But this is exactly the same rhetoric that we heard from the ex-regime.

I mean, President -- the ex-president, Mubarak, never put someone directly into an investigation. There were other people who were great supporters of the regime, who did that for him. And he would come at the end and actually show his grace and release them.

So I mean, we were talking here about the fundamentals of all of this. In a modern democratic country, those laws that can actually allow people to put other people into investigation and trial and jail because of accusation, like insulting the president or insulting a certain religion, is ridiculous. This is -- these are actually the foundations of a fascist regime.

Their law of insulting the president has been there since the 1880s. This is -- actually was taken from the French law, which was abandoned in 1904. We are actually -- we are -- we are -- we are operating with a law that has been obsolete for over a century. It's ridiculous.

AMANPOUR: And in the meantime, there are other really troubling things happening in Egypt, for instance, the huge spike in sexual assaults against women, not to mention the terrible economic problems and the security law and order problems.

I mean, do you see the government able to tackle this?

Are they reacting against you because they feel under threat by the other real problems that are happening in Egypt?

YOUSSEF: The problem now with the rhetoric of the government and their supporting media, that they are blaming everything on the media for talking about problems instead of actually solving the problems, these -- this is a government that is hanging its failure on other people's right for free speech.

So basically you're having an authority that that failed every single promise. And they expect that people will remain silent. And they expect that people that will shut up. And that will not happen. So that's why you have the unrest.

AMANPOUR: And Bassem, finally, when I interviewed you a few months ago, you told me that your mother was quite worried about you, that every time you popped up on television, she thought that you were going to be hauled off to jail.

Do you think her fears have come true?

YOUSSEF: Well, I mean, she's still worried. And now going to jail is a risk that we have to go through. But you know, with big shows and big programs comes creative responsibility and maybe bigger risks. So I think we just have to accept that this would happen anytime. And meanwhile, we will just have fun doing this.

AMANPOUR: Have you heard from Jon Stewart?

YOUSSEF: Oh, yes. I mean, of course, he asks about me and he's -- and he's -- we've been in touch and we've been corresponding and, who knows, maybe he will talk about me in the show.

Hi, Jon.

(LAUGHTER)

AMANPOUR: Bassem Youssef, thank you so much for joining me.

YOUSSEF: Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And after a break, we'll turn to something that is no laughing matter, North Korea. They're banging the war drums again in Pyongyang and I will ask the Pentagon's top spokesman is it just another bluff or a prelude to battle?

But first, take a look at this picture of North Korea's Supreme Leader, Kim Jong-un. There he is, purported in the war room, huddled with his military advisers. Now take a closer look at that map on the wall.

It's labeled "U.S. Strike Plan," and those dark lines are drawn toward potential targets in the United States, Washington, D.C., Los Angeles, Hawaii and what appears to be Austin, Texas, nuclear experts say.

Really? The actual threat posed by Kim Jong-un when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. The time has come to stage a do-or-die final battle. That was the latest threat from North Korea's Kim Jong-un over the weekend. So is that cause for alarm, even panic?

In a way, the world is growing used to melodramatic utterances from the young dictator. Consider this photo, reported to show hovercraft, hitting the beach in a major military drill. On closer inspection, it appears to be fake.

Researchers at the news magazine, "The Atlantic," detected at least two, possibly more, of the hovercraft appear to be clones, cut and pasted into the picture to create the illusion of a much larger fleet.

Nevertheless, neither the United States nor its allies in the region, South Korea and Japan, are taking any chances. Pyongyang has, after all, already detonated three nuclear devices. And the country does have hundreds of thousands of conventional artillery shells, all aimed across the border at 50 million South Koreans.

And in a further show of bluster, North Korea's parliament is expected to rubber stamp plans to expand the country's nuclear arsenal. So today, the United States military dispatched F-22 stealth fighter jets to South Korea and CNN has learned that at least one warship is moving closer to the North Korean coastline. Is this a show of U.S. force?

George Little is America's Assistant Secretary of Defense and the Pentagon's top spokesman, and he joins me now from the Pentagon.

Thanks for being with me.

GEORGE LITTLE, U.S. ASST. SECY OF DEFENSE: Thank you, Christiane, good to be here today.

AMANPOUR: Let me first ask you please to confirm that the United States Navy has dispatched a warship to North Korea or rather to the coastline there.

LITTLE: I would urge everyone to disconnect this ship deployment from recent military exercises in South Korea. We have regular ship movements in the Asia Pacific region and we use our ship movements for any number of purposes. So I'd be very careful about connecting this to recent tensions on the Korean Peninsula.

AMANPOUR: OK. But what if the North Koreans overreact to it and see it as an escalation? Obviously, it's not a coincidence that it's -- the movement is being announced right now. Are you -- are you worried that it might be viewed as an increased threat?

LITTLE: Well, stepping out more broadly into the questions on the Korean Peninsula, we're concerned about any miscalculation. And it's our goal very clearly to avoid miscalculation and risk. We want to choose the path of peace and stability on the peninsula. The North Koreans recently have engaged in a series of provocations, both in words and in actions.

And it's time for them to come into compliance with their international obligations and to choose the path of peace.

AMANPOUR: How worried are you? Because it really is unprecedented. I don't recall ever seeing this amount so rapid-fire of threats and sort of pretend deployments or maybe even real deployments. How concerned are you? And what is their capability?

LITTLE: Well, we haven't seen any kind of troop movements on the North Korean side that would indicate imminent military action. So we think that things may be dialing down just a bit on the Korean Peninsula. At least we hope so. Naturally we're prepared for any contingency with our South Korean allies.

Our recent activities with our South Korean allies have been about alliance assurance, about ensuring them that we are there to protect them. We also have 28,500 U.S. troops on the Korean Peninsula and we have other friends in the region, too, like Japan. And it's about their security that we're most concerned.

AMANPOUR: Again, I hear you clearly. You're saying -- you're projecting strength to your allies. But, again, how does North Korea read that? They were really mightily angered by the first show of flights over the -- over South Korea. Now you're sending a stealth fighter jet over there.

Again, are you concerned that this could escalate or not? And again, I'm really concerned about what you think their capability is. Can they hit the United States? We mentioned that map, showing all sorts of projections.

LITTLE: Well, it's a very good point. And we are concerned about the growing threat that North Korean missiles pose to the region and beyond. That's why we recently announced a missile defense policy whereby we will install 14 new ground-based interceptors in Alaska.

To the point about North Korean rhetoric, it's been overheated, bellicose, irresponsible and unhelpful. And it's been unhelpful mostly to the North Koreans. It's further isolated them and it's self-defeating for the North Koreans at the end of the day. We want constructive engagement with North Koreans.

But this kind of provocative actions and words that we've seen recently is unhelpful.

AMANPOUR: And all of this is with this new leader. I remember when he first came in after his father died and people were kind of hopeful that maybe it would signal a change; there he was. He'd been educated abroad.

He liked Disney. He married a sort of fashionable wife. And now, of course, everybody is trying to put him on the couch, analyze him. How do you read this new North Korean leader, your latest North Korean adversary?

LITTLE: Well, as you could imagine, he does not email me or text me on a regular basis. So I don't know that I can discern precisely what is going through the mind of any North Korean leader. But this is a relatively familiar cycle of provocation that we've seen in the past. Yes, it's been a period of tension recently. But we have seen this kind of cycle before from his father and from his grandfather.

AMANPOUR: And yet it does seem to be a huge sort of jump in the kind of cycle that you're talking about.

Admiral James Winnefeld, the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff just said, "We believe that this young lad ought to be deterred. And if he's not, we'll be ready."

How do you deter him? And how are you ready?

LITTLE: We have been allies with the South Koreans for 60 years. We have a range of very effective options at our disposal that we could use for any contingency on the Korean Peninsula. We hope never to have to use those options, of course, or those plans.

But our alliance with South Korea continues to strengthen. And we believe that it's very important to show the North that we are prepared for any threat that they bring their way or bring our way.

AMANPOUR: And what about China? From all the interviews that I do with officials, it seems to boil down to, crikey, let's hope the Chinese can bring their client ally into line. Can the Chinese? Do they show any willingness to do so? Are you relying on them?

LITTLE: Well, the Chinese can play a very constructive role and they have in the past. As I understand it, they've called for restraint. And we, too, want the North Koreans to exercise restraint. This is ultimately about peace and stability in the region and China, of course, plays a major role in those efforts.

AMANPOUR: Can China still guarantee peace in North Korea and peace on the Korean Peninsula?

LITTLE: China can play a very constructive role. We have military- to-military relationships with Chinese officials. And we hope to grow those relationships over time, not just in this context, but in others.

AMANPOUR: Mr. Little, the new South Korean president is just that. She's new. She's got this crisis right on her plate immediately into her office. And she said today, "If there's any provocation against South Korea and its people, there should be a strong response in initial combat without any political considerations."

Again, are we headed for combat?

LITTLE: Well, if you look at South Korean words and behavior over the past several weeks, you'll notice that they have handled all of this in a measured and very responsible way. South Koreans are outstanding allies and they know that we stand with them. And we expect that kind of behavior and measured response to continue.

AMANPOUR: I hear you. George Little, thank you very much indeed for joining me from the Pentagon.

LITTLE: Christiane, thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And after a break, Pakistan's former strongman is back and he's flexing his muscles on social media for a run at the presidency. Is Pakistan ready for Musharraf part two? When we come back.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, we just showed you how North Korea's Kim Jong-un may be photoshopping his country's images. And he is not the only leader who exaggerates his strength. Pakistan's former military ruler, General Pervez Musharraf, returned to Karachi last week after four years of self-imposed exile, proclaiming himself the savior of the nation.

This is how the homecoming appears on his Twitter page. Clearly an exaggeration, the real crowd that greeted him was small. And so, it seems, are his chances of winning next month's election. But that hasn't stopped him from campaigning on social media.

The former strongman who joined the United States after 9/11 to take on Al Qaeda and the Taliban is now literally flexing his muscles on Twitter and Facebook, showing his workout routine ahead of his presidential bid.

He even tweeted his appearance in court on Friday, where he was called to account for a decade of allegedly political crackdowns. Pakistan has towering problems, Taliban extremists, sectarian violence and a struggling economy.

But it does have a democratically elected government now. And despite its shortcomings, that government vows to transfer power in new democratic elections next month. And that would be a first since Pakistan was created back in 1947. And that's why the majority of Pakistanis are unwilling to return to the days of military-style rule.

That's it for tonight's program. Meantime, you can always contact us on our website, amanpour.com. Thanks for watching and goodbye from New York.

END