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Amanpour
Military Sexual Assault Scandal Examined; Jordan's Refugee Problem Discussed
Aired May 23, 2013 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
Tonight the war that no member of the U.S. military should ever have to fight, the ongoing battle against rampant sexual assault in the ranks and the struggle for victims to get justice within the military chain of command.
About 3,000 acts of sexual violence were reported in 2012, but the Pentagon estimates that in reality there were more than 25,000 incidents. President Obama and Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel are weighing in, and they're vowing to enforce a no-tolerance policy.
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OBAMA: For those who are in uniform, who've experienced sexual assault, I want them to hear directly from their commander in chief that I've got their backs. I will support them. And we're not going to tolerate this stuff. And there will be accountability.
If people have engaged in this behavior, they should be prosecuted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Only a fifth of all sexual assault cases in the military actually make it to trial and reporting an assault means dealing within the chain of command. And so the superiors of these assaults victims have direct influence over the fate of their cases.
And of course, there have been several recent incidents of military commanders in charge of helping sexual assault victims who, themselves, have actually been charged with assault.
Susan Burke is an attorney who represents victims when the cases actually do go to trial and she's here with me in the studio.
Kirsten Gillibrand is the U.S. senator from New York, who recently proposed legislation to overhaul the way the military handles sexual assault cases.
Senator Gillibrand and Susan Burke, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
Senator, let me ask you first, there you are in Washington on Capitol Hill.
What is the biggest challenge with this issue of reporting, prosecuting and generally dealing with this scourge of sexual abuse?
SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND, (D) NEW YORK: Well, what we know, Christiane, is there's approximately 26,000 unwanted sexual advances, sexual assaults and rapes every single year, but of that number, only about 3,300 are actually reported.
So, our biggest challenge is creating a culture and a circumstance under which the victims and survivors are willing to tell their story and willing to report. What the victims have told us is that they fear retaliation, being marginalized, ending their careers, or being blamed.
And so we want to be able to create the circumstances under which the victims and survivors are willing to tell their story and willing to report.
What the victims have told us is that they fear retaliation, being marginalized, ending their careers or being blamed. And so we want to be able to create circumstances under which they feel that they can receive justice within the military system.
So, what we do in our piece of legislation is remove the reporting and decision-making requirement about whether to proceed to trial away from the chain of command and into the military justice system in terms of prosecutors - trained military prosecutors will make the decision about whether or not to proceed to trial, and that victim can report directly to that prosecutor.
AMANPOUR: Well, I'm joined by Susan Burke.
And this is obviously something that you and others have been lobbying for: changing the military code of justice.
Does this go far enough? Is this what you're asking for?
SUSAN BURKE, REPRESENTS SERVICEWOMEN WHO ARE VICTIMS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT: Well, we definitely applaud Senator Gillibrand for her tremendous work on the issue, along with the other senators, because it gets to the core issue, which is to begin to have an impartial system of justice, a fair system of justice.
Right now, it's not only that the victims fear retaliation, it's that they do suffer actual retaliation. So, a rational person, when confronted with the problem that reporting the crime has a minuscule chance of leading to incarceration of the criminal and yet a dramatic chance of ruining their careers, it's simply not rational to report in those circumstances.
AMANPOUR: And Senator, the thing that blows my mind in reporting all of this is that so often the -- those who are being attacked reported to superiors who were either friends of the attackers or who are either the attackers themselves.
GILLIBRAND: That's correct, Christiane. The real challenge is that you have to report to your commander, who may know not only your perpetrator, but may be friends with him or certainly may have a bias; that commander is going to be held accountable. So, it's also against his own interest to see a case through trial to fruition.
AMANPOUR: Now, let me ask you, you've made this made this move, you've made this proposal, but it's actually not something that the Defense secretary approves of.
Senator - rather Chuck Hagel, the Secretary of Defense, former senator, has said that he opposes the idea of the chain of command in this regard being changed and putting these cases before proper prosecutors.
Let me play what he said about this, and then I want to get both of your reactions.
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CHUCK HAGEL, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It is my strong belief, and I think others on Capitol Hill and within our institution, the ultimate authority has to remain within the command structure. There are things we need to do, should do, will do to make it more accountable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, Senator, how do you react to that particularly in light of these two gentlemen from the military, officers, who had to have been fired and arrested because they themselves were accused of unwanted sexual advances?
Senator, how do deal with opposition from the Secretary of Defense?
GILLIBRAND: Well, the Secretary of Defense has since really walked that back. He's actually said all solutions are on the table. I've had long conversations with him myself about this topic, and Secretary Hagel himself proposed one change to the UCMJ, which is the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
He said he doesn't believe the commander should no longer have the ability to overturn a jury verdict. And that is a change to the UCMJ's Article 60.
We are urging a second change to the UCMJ in addition. We believe that Article 30, which is the decision-making point of whether or not to go to trial, should also be removed from the chain of command.
The combination of those two changes, we think, will create a greater climate where victims will believe that justice is possible and there will be more transparency and accountability within the system.
And so, I have not lost hope that Secretary Hagel will change his view on this very issue and show leadership about how we can transform the military justice system.
AMANPOUR: Susan, how do you feel about what the secretary says, and do you hope, like Senator Gillibrand does, that he will fundamentally change his view?
BURKE: Well, and I look at it slightly differently.
The Constitution makes sure that we as a democracy have civilian control. So the real people who are the leaders here are Senator Gillibrand and her colleagues in Congress. And they are now stepping forward.
A couple of decades of this problem, they're stepping forward and they're realizing, regardless of what the Secretary of Defense says, regardless of how top military leadership feels about having power taken away from them, they know it's their duty to this country, to everyone, to make sure that the men and women who defend this nation have a fair system of justice.
I hope that, you know, Secretary Hagel understands why after 20 years of not solving a problem his responses are not what's needed. But whether he comes along or not we're looking to Senator Gillibrand and her colleagues to make sure that there's fairness in America.
AMANPOUR: Give me a little bit of a -- sort of a reality check on some of your clients. You have many clients ----
BURKE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: ---- many people who you're defending in this regard. What are they saying now?
BURKE: Well, you know, I think everyone is encouraged and optimistic that we're going to begin to see some real change.
But what these people have lived through is horrific. I mean, for example, we had one woman who reported her rape; nothing was done about it. Instead she had to continue to solute the rapist. She had to report each day for a body composition check, in which he measured her.
And so the indignities that go along with being forced to salute people, to stay in close working quarters with them, it makes what is already a crime, it makes the aftermath just very tragic.
AMANPOUR: And Senator, how does this compare with what happens in other allied militaries?
GILLIBRAND: Well, you know, Christiane, other countries have already made this decision. Some of our closest allies, the U.K., Canada, Australia and Israel, have already removed serious crimes from the chain of command.
So whether it's a rape, a sexual assault or a murder, those decisions are no longer made by commanding officers. They're made by trained prosecutors so they can make the judgment about whether or not to go to trial.
And I can tell you, the results out of these other nations that are our close allies have been very favorable. And so this is not a change that has never been done; it's not a change that's untested. It's a commonsense change that, I think, brings justice and transparency to our system, in our military and will make our military that much stronger.
We have the greatest military in the world. We have men and women who are willing to sacrifice everything. We should not be asking them to sacrifice being subject to these crimes at the hands of their colleagues.
AMANPOUR: Well said, Senator. Thank you very much indeed.
And Susan Burke, thank you very much.
BURKE: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: And after we take a break, they say no good deed goes unpunished. Well, the Kingdom of Jordan has opened its arms to Syria's refugees and now it is paying a very high price for its compassion. That story when we come back.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
A tsunami in slow motion: that's how Jordan's ambassador to the United Nations describes the relentless flow of Syrian refugees into his country. These satellite images tell the whole story. They show Jordan's Zaatari camp located south of the Syrian border.
Each yellow dot is a tent or a shelter. In November, there were 5,000 of them. And then just six months later, an unbelievable 28,000 shelters for 100,000 Syrians seeking safety.
About half a million Syrians are in Jordan, stretching the resources of an already poor country. And more refugees are on the way.
With the fighting inside Syria escalating and the refugee crisis threatening its neighbors, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry has landed in Jordan. Yesterday he held yet another Friends of Syria conference, hoping to lay the groundwork for the international Syria peace summit that he's agreed to host, along with Russia.
Now hoping to tip the scales in his favor for any upcoming negotiations, President Assad of Syria, backed by Hezbollah fighters, is retaking key territory from the rebels, like the strategic stronghold of Qusayr in the Homs province.
I spoke about the massive humanitarian catastrophe and how the war might destabilize Jordan, which is a key Western ally, with the country's ambassador to the U.N. here in New York, Prince Zeid al-Hussein.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Ambassador, welcome.
PRINCE ZEID AL-HUSSEIN, JORDAN'S AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Thanks for coming in, because we really want to discuss something that is practically crippling Jordan, for as far as I can tell, the refugees from Syria into Jordan.
How bad is it for your country?
HUSSEIN: Well, it's an immense problem the way we see it now. And it can get, of course, much, much worse if we continue to see the rate of 1,500-2,000 Syrian refugees entering Jordan. There's been a lot in the last 24 hours. I'm sure you've heard about --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: And not just a lot; you've closed the borders.
HUSSEIN: Well, no, the reports were initially that we closed. But there has been intense fighting along the southern border, the Syrian border.
And loud detonations have been heard in the Jordanian towns and villages along the border -- and we suspect that the refugees cannot move under these circumstances. And it's not a case of us turning them away; it's a case of them not actually reaching our border.
AMANPOUR: So you did not prevent them; you --
(CROSSTALK)
HUSSEIN: From what I understand, no. That's not the case.
AMANPOUR: All right. So if this lull subsides and they start flooding over again, in huge numbers, what kind of a stress is it putting on the ability to cope?
HUSSEIN: A huge stress, a huge stress. When I reported to the Security Council two weeks ago, I said to them in very stark terms that had Jordan been a bank in distress, with potential knock-on effects, should the bank founder on the OECD countries, the bank would have received a bailout, rescue, almost immediately.
We are critical to the stability of the Middle East. We have excellent relations with our Arab neighbors. At times there have been tensions, but we've never declared war on any Arab state and we have a peace treaty with Israel. We're absolutely fundamental, as you know, Christiane, to the stability of the Middle East.
And yet we do not see the sort of support that we require. Now we have received something, and we're very grateful for it. In fact, yesterday we took receipt of the $200 million that President Obama had pledged to us --
AMANPOUR: But it's not enough?
HUSSEIN: It's not enough, given what we see happening in Syria -- of course, this is a crime scene, massive colossal crime scene in the making. And so people will flee and continue to flee.
And we simply do not have the absorption capacity over the next 12 months unless we receive massive amounts of financial assistance or we have third-party relocations and some of the other countries, neighboring or otherwise, take up the slack and take some of the refugees from us.
AMANPOUR: Well, your king, King Abdullah, was in Washington recently. He spoke to President Obama and he thanked President Obama.
Why do you think you're not getting what you need to get, given that you are, if I might say, doing the world's dirty work there?
HUSSEIN: I don't know why there seems to be not an insensitivity but this unwillingness to share the burden.
One can speculate that perhaps it's just so much attention is given to refugee crises around the world that we become numb and it's very regrettable, because our situation is very dangerous.
Does it threaten the very stability of your country?
HUSSEIN: Well, we made it very clear that -- to the Security Council that if this continues unchecked and with no financial -- if we don't receive the financial aid required for us to cope, that this does pose a threat to our stability and security and consequently to the stability and security of the Middle East.
AMANPOUR: Let me play you part of an interview that President Assad gave, essentially saying that you are very vulnerable.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SYRIAN PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASSAD (through translator): We hope that some responsible Jordanian officials, who do not comprehend the dangerous situation in Syria and what it means for Jordan and neighboring countries, would be better aware in those regards, because the fire will not stop at our borders. Everyone knows that Jordan is just as vulnerable as Syria.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Well, clearly, President Assad is taking a knock at you for supporting the opposition. He says they're all terrorists and they're going to come back and bite your country in the backside as well.
Is he right?
HUSSEIN: One has to remember -- and you and I are veterans of the Bosnia days -- that while there are parties that will occupy everyone's attention, the international media attention, in between these parties, whether you speak of the government and the opposition, there are 22 million Syrian civilians who need to be supported, rescued, however we may want to see it.
And I think we need to keep a focus on them. All the pressures that we see bearing down on this particular conflict, but not just this conflict, all threat in the Middle East, the tension, instability, beg one to think, what is happening to us? And where is this entire region going?
And as others -- and you yourself have said, you know, Syria is a very dangerous conflict.
AMANPOUR: Last question, do you think Jordan, Turkey, will you inevitably start carving out bits inside the Syrian border to keep these people on that side of the border?
HUSSEIN: It's difficult to assess now because what we said to the Security Council is we want you to make a determination that if this situation continues as is, without, again, us receiving the financial support we need or the stemming of the refugee -- of a flow of refugees into Jordan, we want you to make a determination if this is a threat to international peace and security.
And we want the Security Council to come and visit Jordan. We made the request three weeks ago and we're still waiting for a response.
AMANPOUR: Prince Zeid, ambassador, thank you very much for joining me.
HUSSEIN: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And after we take a break, the fight for same-sex marriage has known good days and bad. But we'll show you a day unlike any other when we come back.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where on one historic day in three world capitals the fight for same-sex marriage brought victory, defeat and sudden death.
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AMANPOUR (voice-over): On Tuesday afternoon, the choir to Paris' Notre Dame Cathedral was shattered when Dominique Venner, an ultra- conservative writer and historian, placed a note on the altar, pulled out a gun and shot himself in the head in front of horrified tourists.
A final entry left on his blog denounced France's new law legalizing gay marriage. And while it's surely the most spectacular form of protest, the gunshot echoes through the boulevards of Paris, where, for months, opponents of the law who are fighting to block its passage have clashed with police.
It became law last week. And across the Channel, Britain's Parliament has been debating its own same-sex marriage measure.
And on the same day that Dominique Venner killed himself, Britain's House of Commons voted 366 to 161 in favor of a bill allowing same-sex marriage. The bill now goes to the House of Lords, where it faces an uphill battle.
And here in the United States, same-sex marriage became a casualty of congressional infighting. An amendment to an immigration reform bill would have allowed gays and lesbians to sponsor their foreign-born partners for green cards, just like married straight couples can.
But in order to save the whole immigration reform bill, the last- minute amendment was withdrawn. And that dashed the hopes of couples like Brandon Perlberg and Benn Storey. I spoke to them a few months ago on this program.
Benn, who's a British citizen, had to return to London because his visa was up. Brandon, who's an American citizen, went with him. And he spoke movingly of being forced to choose between love and his country.
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BRANDON PERLBERG, GAY AMERICAN: I love my country and I've never felt more personally attached and involved in its future as I do right now, as there's a debate going on as to immigration and a debate going on as to same-sex marriage, both of which are obviously important to us.
At the same time, I cannot shake this feeling of resentment that I have, that our lives were taken away from us. I mean, you know, because of the Defense of Marriage Act, DOMA, I was unable to marry Benn and sponsor him for a green card.
So the way that I look at it, in the name of the defense of marriage, we were forced to give up everything, our home, our careers, our proximity to friends and family, all of that, and start a new life over here, because we dared to put our relationship first, because we said, no, that means more to us than anything else.
And the great irony is that that value is the very thing that makes the defense of marriage worthwhile. So what a stupid law.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): So now Brandon and Benn, like other gay couples, can only hope that the U.S. Supreme Court strikes down the Defense of Marriage Act next month.
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AMANPOUR: And that's it for our program tonight. Thanks for watching and goodbye from New York.
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