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Amanpour

Mass Protests Across Turkey

Aired June 03, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

"This is not a Turkish Spring," defiant words from Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, as we watch yet another night of demonstrations across Turkey.

Small protests began a week ago in an Istanbul park over a government proposal to turn it into a shopping mall. Those quickly grew violent and spread after police responded with tear gas, fire hoses and pepper spray. Hundreds of protesters have been injured and arrested in cities across the country.

The unrest clearly has mushroomed into a popular indictment of Prime Minister Erdogan himself and what many see as his increasingly authoritarian rule. He has been democratically elected three times, but he brooks little dissent and dismisses these protesters as extremists and foreign agitators, and he mocks their criticism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN, PRIME MINISTER OF TURKEY (through translator): Tayyip Erdogan is a dictator? If you are the kind of person who can call someone who serves their people a dictator, then I have no words for you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And indeed, over the past decade, Erdogan has tripled the average Turkish income, spurred the country's economy, sidelined the military from politics, reformed the judiciary and is often held up by the West as a model for the emerging democracies in the Arab world.

Erdogan's Turkey is also a centerpiece of America's Middle East policy, and that was evident when President Barack Obama hosted him at the White House just two weeks ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is a great pleasure to welcome my friend, Prime Minister Erdogan, back to the White House. This visit reflects the importance that the United States places on our relationship with our ally, Turkey, and I value so much the partnership that I've been able to develop with Prime Minister Erdogan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Today the White House is calling for restraint from the police and the demonstrators to refrain from using violence.

For all his successes, Erdogan is earning the increasing wrath of the secular youth and others for cracking down on the press, on most legitimate political opposition as well as for his grand vision for building projects and most recently for restricting alcohol use, even founding members of his ruling Freedom and Justice Party (sic) are sounding the alarm now, urging the prime minister to listen to what the people are saying.

CNN senior international correspondent, Ivan Watson, is in Istanbul, where he's been covering the demonstrations from the beginning.

Ivan, welcome; you've been there from the beginning.

How are the demonstrations evolving?

And what are the people saying to you today?

IVAN WATSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you know, Christiane, on Thursday night I thought this might be a flash in the pan and this has just ballooned ever since then. I think fueled very much by the excessive use of force of the police that we've seen against demonstrators.

And then by the insults of the Turkish prime minister himself against the demonstrators, which seems to be pushing more and more people out on the streets, especially when he refers to the demonstrators as marginal groups and extremists.

The situation right now in Istanbul, we're hearing that there may be clashes underway once again between demonstrators and riot police in the direction of the prime minister's office in Istanbul, which is about 2 kilometers from where we're standing right now. There were vicious clashes before dawn this morning that you're looking at now that -- those images.

Here in Taksim Square, it's very peaceful though we are seeing signs of intimidation. There is a police helicopter circling overhead, shining its spotlight on the more than 10,000 people in Taksim Square and in the neighboring Gezi Park and, of course, this is a protest movement that has spread to other cities.

Our correspondent in Ankara, Nick Paton Walsh, witnessed riot police firing tear gas at high school students who were trying to stage a protest in the streets of the capital city earlier today.

AMANPOUR: Ivan, they have taken away the police from Taksim Square, as you described. That's considered a concession from the prime minister.

Is that changing what the people out there are asking for?

And what are they actually asking for?

WATSON: Well, I think it's almost a cry from the heart that you're hearing from people. Certainly they viewed it as a victory when the police withdrew from Taksim and they were able to move in, which happened on Saturday, very dramatically. The most frequent chant that you'll hear is "Tayyip Istifa," which means, "Resign, Tayyip," Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish prime minister.

I don't think that there's a coherent plan for what comes next or for how this is to happen, given that the Turkish prime minister was democratically elected. There's not one single politician or political party that is leading this -- what has been an explosion of anger and grassroots activism that we've seen on the streets.

AMANPOUR: Ivan, I know you've got a young protester standing by. And I just wanted to know -- I know you're going to talk to him in a second for us. You know, what is their reaction to the prime minister defiantly saying today, "This is no Turkish Spring"?

WATSON: Well, here. I'll give you another example. I spoke to a 15- year-old demonstrator today, and said, hey, your prime minister says you guys are marginal. And his answer was, "It's the prime minister who's marginal."

And then he said, "Sheddef siz (ph)," which means, "He has no honor." That's an insult from a 15-year old who was probably 5 years old when Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his party first swept to power.

AMANPOUR: Who have you got standing next to you right now? What is he saying?

WATSON: Let me introduce you. This is very interesting.

Memet Ali Alabora is the president of the Actors' Union of Turkey. He's a well-known film and television and theater star here.

And I believe you were one of the first organizers of the protests way back when on -- as early as Tuesday, right next to here.

How did the protests look at that time?

And what were you guys asking for?

MEMET ALI ALABORA, ACTOR: I was not an organizer. I was just one of the attendants. And I just ran there in the second night. After my work, I just ran there.

The only thing that people wanted, as I was, was to protect our trees and our soil and our city and our city culture. That was what all the people gathered for. And we were something like 200 people there.

And the following day, in the morning, the police tear gassed people. So that was the reason why hundreds of people gathered together after one night. And the first night, there was 50-100 people. Then the police tear gassed, really attacked people who were staying there in their tents. And the crowd became like 10,000-20,000 people.

And we started to sing. We started to read poems. We started to read books. And people then started to express their thoughts and the freedom - - they wanted to taste the freedom of expression in that park, because it started with a tree.

But the tree then became an expression to express themselves. The people in Turkey, who thought that they couldn't express themselves because of many things, because of alcohol, because of the demolishing of cinemas, because of many -- or because of their trees that are being pulled down from the -- pulling up from the soil.

So they started to express themselves. But when -- in the very morning, at 5 o'clock on Friday, when the police brutally attacked the people who were staying there, like they were 2,000 -- there were 2,000 people.

And in the morning, when we got there, 10 o'clock, they again tear gassed us. And at night there was hundreds of thousands, people walking the streets. They were not organized people. They were there just to express themselves.

WATSON: And that seemed to have driven people to start fighting with the police in some cases.

What is the crowd asking for now?

What are the people throwing stones at the police and bottles at the police asking for, the people who've built barricades and chanting, "Tayyip Istifa," what do people want?

ALABORA: People want one thing, first of all, people go -- went there because of a tree. But then it was not just because of the tree, but everything started from the tree. People said we do exist with our trees and we want to express ourselves. We want to have a word in the life of this city. But then the government said, no, you do not exist.

And not just you do not exist, but they wanted to -- they wanted to make us nonexistent.

WATSON: In calling you a marginal group?

ALABORA: Not just a -- it was not just calling them a marginal group. They -- the police literally attacked people, shooting tear gas bombs or bottles -- I don't know what it's called -- onto people, onto their heads.

WATSON: And we saw this again and again play out in these streets, Christiane, and I think perhaps the irony here is that Memet himself became a celebrity in Turkey playing a policeman on television more than a decade ago.

AMANPOUR: All right. On that note, Ivan Watson, thank you very much.

Memet, thank you very much indeed.

And we want to turn now to someone who is very close to the prime minister, indeed, a founding member and deputy chairman of the ruling Ak Parti, the Freedom and Justice Party (sic), and he is with the Turkish leader right now on the official trip to Morocco. He is Mevlut Cavusoglu and he joins me now by telephone.

Mr. Cavusoglu, thank you very much for joining me. You just heard what our reporter has been asking and what the leader of the Actors' Union there has been saying.

The people feel marginalized. How do you answer that?

MEVLUT CAVUSOGLU, DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF AK PARTI: Well, first of all, I have to correct the fake (ph) information that the building and shopping mall has never been considered here in Taksim Square.

What is considered is the pedestrian way and the putting the car traffic and -- under the tunnel and enlarging this, the Taksim Square.

AMANPOUR: So you're saying no mall?

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUSOGLU: All -- the only -- all military barracks is considered to be rebuilt. They're all military barracks. Never -- we have -- several times we corrected this, but still you are mentioning that, the building a shopping mall considered in this project.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: So can I be -- can I -- can you -- ?

CAVUSOGLU: And this project was actually supported by all the political parties in the city council and it was adopted unanimously at the city council.

AMANPOUR: All right. Well, I think that's a message that needs to get through to the demonstrators because every press report is saying that it is (inaudible).

CAVUSOGLU: (Inaudible) regarding the tree that is actually over there, this project is actually increasing the (inaudible) only 10 trees actually replanted somewhere else. And only two of them had to be cut. It's not cut yet, but we consider it to be cut.

AMANPOUR: All right. Well let me --

CAVUSOGLU: And regarding the marginalization (ph) activity, I (inaudible). We are distinguishing the people, the civilians, the civilian and civilized demonstrations and the marginal groups. And that's why it should be also distinguished by the press and by everybody. Now in Turkey, in Taksim, in Ankara, in my hometown, Antalya, there are two different groups.

AMANPOUR: Well --

CAVUSOGLU: (Inaudible) the other actors and the civilians, they are using their right to demonstrate and the meetings and criticizing or protesting what happened.

And we never support the excessive use of force of the police or tear gas or pepper spray (inaudible). And President -- Prime Minister already asked for investigation and it has been launched.

AMANPOUR: All right. Well, let me just get this clear, sir. Let me get this clear.

CAVUSOGLU: (Inaudible).

AMANPOUR: Let me get this clear. You're -- you -- let me get this very clear, because it's important.

You are saying, number one, that there will be no mall built in Taksim Square, correct? Yes or no?

CAVUSOGLU: Absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely.

AMANPOUR: OK. Secondly, you are saying that you disagree with the excessive police use of force, which we have seen on display for the last several days.

CAVUSOGLU: No, no, no, this is -- no, no, no. I said I underline that the police at the beginning used excessive force and the tear gas and the pepper spray. And this is unacceptable (ph) for us. And the prime minister already asked for the investigation. And it has been launched.

AMANPOUR: All right. So how do you think this is going to end? Because as you clearly know, you must know that this is not just about trees in Taksim Square. This is about a perception of increased authoritarianism by the prime minister, no political space, no political opposition.

How do you think this is going to end?

CAVUSOGLU: Well, now, Ms. Amanpour, we can -- I cannot accept claim that Erdogan or our party has been implementing the authoritarianism and these kind of policies. And we cannot accept this. And we are -- we have been elected by the people and in last election, more than 50 percent of the population supported us.

And it was a very fair and democratic election. It has been a chance like this for our international organizations.

Regarding the second part of the question, how it can end, well, if we distinguish -- if we can distinguish the two different groups, as I said, this -- the orderly citizens, innocent people who are demonstrating like Memet Ali Alabora, the actor, and others, they should also put a clear line between themselves and on the radicals. And the second group is the radicals. Who are in these radicals?

Like the Communist Party (ph) and the -- all the radical and marginal groups, including the terrorist groups (inaudible), which attacked the U.S. embassy in Ankara and as Memet Ali Alabora said, on Saturday, the police has been withdrawn from the Taksim Square.

AMANPOUR: Yes, but they're all over the place and elsewhere.

CAVUSOGLU: (Inaudible) is protesting, staying there in a civilized manner.

AMANPOUR: Right.

CAVUSOGLU: The second group is destroying all the city, cracking down the private shops, all the cars, unblunted (ph), even they are attacking the health care services. So it isn't civilized protests and we accept this.

And there are also some civilians (ph) in Taksim Square, people are OK, fine. But in some part of Istanbul and also in Ankara, there are radicals and the marginal who are destroying everywhere.

AMANPOUR: Sir?

CAVUSOGLU: In my hometown, Antalya, people who are coming to the square, main square, no problem; thousands of people, 10 thousands of people, sometimes gather and they do. They protest and know what they want.

AMANPOUR: OK. Sir, sir, please. This is an interview, sir. I need to ask you some questions.

CAVUSOGLU: (Inaudible) and the others, we cannot accept this.

AMANPOUR: I need to ask you some questions. This is an interview, sir, not a speech. It involves me asking you some questions.

You say that you --

CAVUSOGLU: I am answering your questions.

AMANPOUR: I know, sir.

CAVUSOGLU: You are making some claims regarding my prime minister.

AMANPOUR: I am not.

CAVUSOGLU: (Inaudible) leader and also you ask, claiming that the shopping mall is there. I have to answer all these.

AMANPOUR: No, no. You've made yourself clear. You've made yourself clear on the shopping mall, and that is news and that's good.

But here's the point. You've just said -- and you're absolutely right, that the prime minister was elected democratically each time by a higher margin, 50 percent the last time.

But what does that mean? Does that mean majority rule? Because these people are describing themselves as the secular, many of them are young; many of them are business people. They're lawyers; many of them are financial people. They want space to breathe and they feel like they're not getting it. They're worried about the alcohol restriction. What about the press?

Members of my tribe are in prison in your country.

CAVUSOGLU: (Inaudible) already ask for any kind of (inaudible), we (inaudible) the first group that I mentioned here on the phone. And we -- regarding the second group, I mean, we cannot negotiate with the terrorists and the marginals. But we -- the first group, we can discuss in everything and so far, in 10 years, we implemented the policies regarding the demand of the citizens of Turkey.

And we never say, you know, we have never been in a manner that we can do whatever you want because people are supporting us. That's each election, the people have been increasing their support of our government and our prime minister.

So all these are the manipulations. We are the democratic government and democratically elected parliament and (inaudible) there is a word (ph) in the parliament. And of course we had the majority. But we would like to also enhance our sincere dialogue, particularly regarding resolving this terror problem in Turkey.

I mean, we are in -- we have been in this manner. But there are some groups in Turkey supported by the main opposition party. And be it -- they have been --

AMANPOUR: OK.

CAVUSOGLU: -- in for dialogue with us.

AMANPOUR: All right.

CAVUSOGLU: This is the point.

AMANPOUR: Mevlut Cavusoglu, thank you so much for joining me, founder, member of the ruling Freedom and Justice Party (sic). You have said that the mall will not be built and you have also said that the prime minister wants an investigation into what you call the excessive use of force on those first days. So hopefully that will happen.

And we will be back with in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back. And as we continue to follow the turbulence in Turkey, I just want to correct myself. Of course, Prime Minister Erdogan's party is called the Justice and Development Party, not as I said the Freedom and Justice Party.

So on the surface, the demonstration in Istanbul's Taksim Square may look a bit like Cairo's Tahrir Square. But Turkey today is not Egypt 2011. It is a democracy and it has a thriving economy. But my next guest wonders whether the past week will nonetheless be remembered as the week that changed Turkey's politics in the 21st century.

He is Soli Ozel, a columnist and a lecturer in international relations at Kadir Has University in Istanbul. He's currently serving as visiting professor at Northwestern University and he joins me now from Cairo.

Thank you so much for joining me.

SOLI OZEL, TURKISH WRITER AND SCHOLAR: Hello, I'm in Chicago.

AMANPOUR: Yes, you are indeed, and I'm getting confused, because I called his party the name of the Egyptian party. So let's gather our thoughts.

OZEL: All right.

(LAUGHTER)

AMANPOUR: And let me ask you what you made of the official's comments that, A, there will be no mall. That seems to be the first time I've heard this. B, there will be an investigation into this violence. And, C, that most of these people don't represent any kind of legitimate opposition.

OZEL: Well, let's start with the mall. The idea or the fact that there was going to be a mall in the barracks, in the newly reconstructed barracks, was the news that the prime minister himself broke to the country. And he said there would be a mall and residences.

So nobody made it up. So -- and then it was somewhat retracted. And I think yesterday in the interview, that he gave, the prime minister said, well, maybe we will turn it into a museum, where he stumbled; no, it's not going to be residences. Maybe a hotel. So the mall is out of the equation, thankfully.

As to whether or -- I mean, hundreds of thousands of people, people crossing the bridge in the -- at 5:00 in the morning, that strikes me a bit odd to note them as marginal groups. I'm sure there are marginal groups.

There are marginal groups in such big occasions everywhere. And most of the time, to the extent that I would -- that I could follow it, the majority of the crowd tried to contain these guys and tried to stop them.

That there's been cases of vandalism is true. But when you look at the dimensions of this, it had been rather, to the best of my knowledge, it had been rather limited. So to say that this was all instigated by marginal groups is certainly wrong.

AMANPOUR: So --

OZEL: What really instigated this -- yes, sure.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: I was going to say what really instigated it and what is the bigger picture, what is the bigger meaning of this?

And what should we be taking away from what we're seeing?

OZEL: What if -- what really instigated this was the excessive use of force of the police against those tree-hugging guys in the park. They raided the park at 5:00 in the morning Thursday morning, burnt the tents and as they always do, they liberally used tear gas or pepper gas and the country -- I mean, the city or all the cities are under the pepper gas cloud.

Now what we should make out of this is that ultimately an urban educated mobile 21st century public basically broke the wall of fear and basically told the prime minister and the ruling party that they -- that they are also citizens of this country, that they would rather be talked to rather than be talked at.

And rather than actually everything coming top down, they would like to have a say over what's going to happen to their city. Istanbul is an important city. Istanbul is a historical city. Istanbul is not Dubai. You cannot really build things as you see fit. There you cannot do arrangements like that.

And the citizens basically asked to be heard. And in that sense, I think what we've seen is the mobilization of citizenry, nothing more, nothing less.

AMANPOUR: So, Mr. Ozel, how does this change, how does it end?

OZEL: Well, I -- it will probably subside at some point unless the excessive force, use of force continues. There will -- I don't think the government is in the mood to actually hear what the crowds have said. This is the first setback, by the way, by the prime minister in his decade-long reign as well. I think we need to really rehash our -- the way we do our politics.

This is not about the opposition party. The opposition party didn't really have anything to do with this. It didn't instigate it. It cannot really get its act together to begin with. That is precisely why the public itself took matters into its own hands.

And quite frankly, obviously, this is not necessarily the national constituency of the ruling party. But there were enough people who, even in their constituency, that sympathized with what was going on and will have to wait for the reaction from Anatolia, the court, supporters of the ruling party.

And even there, I think there is some sympathy that this degree of pressure from top down management style is really get out of hand.

AMANPOUR: Soli Ozel, thank you so much for joining me from Chicago and not Cairo.

OZEL: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Thank you so much.

OZEL: Thank you very much.

AMANPOUR: And we'll be back with a final word after a break.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And finally, one last look at Taksim Square in Istanbul, a fairly peaceful looking demonstration, protesters milling around. The police have been withdrawn from Taksim Square. And we wait to see how all of this will end in towns and cities across Turkey.

Thanks for watching. Goodbye from New York.

END