Return to Transcripts main page

Amanpour

US-China Relations and the Informal Meeting Between Presidents Obama and Xi; Syrian Forces Target the Media?

Aired June 05, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

Tonight, the world's most important relationship, the one between China and the United States of America, and their two leaders, the most powerful on Earth, meet face to face on Friday in an unusual setting, not the set piece summits that we're used to seeing, but a surprisingly informal get-to-know-you at the aptly named Sunnylands estate near Los Angeles.

U.S. President Barack Obama meets China's new President Xi Jinping as some indicators foresee China's economy beating America's by 2016. That's even before Obama leaves office.

As China's power rises and many see America's waning, the risk of danger mounts, not to mention the level of mutual suspicion and distrust.

So how to bridge the two nations' very different goals and global visions? Everything from Beijing's claims in the East China Sea to both nations' trouble with nuclear North Korea and the United States' mounting concern with China allegedly hacking even its most important military secrets.

So this meeting between Obama and Xi could set the tone and define the future maybe developing a personal relationship that could manage their nations' strategic competition.

My guest tonight is a key architect of the Obama administration's so- called pivot to Asia, America's strategic plan to shift its attention and resources to the Pacific.

Kurt Campbell served as assistant U.S. secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific Affairs under Hillary Clinton. I spoke to him earlier from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Kurt Campbell, welcome to the program. Thanks for joining me.

KURT CAMPBELL, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EAST ASIAN AND PACIFIC AFFAIRS: It's great to be with you. Thank you.

AMANPOUR: President Xi has said that he's looking for a new great power relationship with the United States.

What do you think he means by that?

And what will it mean for the U.S.?

CAMPBELL: I think more generally what China is indicating with that, even though it's grown rapidly, it's extraordinarily powerful in the world, it still wants and needs a good relationship with the United States. And this is an attempt to set out the ground rules for how our two countries will work together in the 21st century.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, because obviously this all takes place in the framework of the so-called pivot to Asia, the Obama administration new strategic policy which you were an architect of.

So the question of course is what does this mean for China, most particularly because it's all being described in military terms.

Why shouldn't the Chinese feel threatened by it, anxious and angry about this?

CAMPBELL: Well, to be perfectly honest, the primary focus of the pivot or rebalancing to Asia has been diplomatic and economic. But I don't think we did as good a job as we could. I don't think the reporting was very good on the military dimension, which has been very, very small to date.

I think, beginning in about 2007-2008, the Chinese believe that the United States was in the midst of a really profound decline; we were perhaps out of the region in just a little while.

And so one of the things that we've had to do is to underscore that the United States has staying power, has enduring capabilities. And we will be a player in Asia for decades to come.

And we are subtly shifting our responsibilities and focus more towards where we've been engaged over the last decade or so in the Middle East and South Asia, more towards Asia, which is really where the lion's share of the 21st century is going to be written.

So part of what we've got to do is to convince China that we're not going anywhere, but at the same time to underscore that we are committed to having a strong, positive relationship with China and that we're going to have work together in this very large region which, frankly, both our prosperities are based on.

AMANPOUR: You know, a lot of talk -- and this is obviously unusual -- is happening about Thucydides and the Peloponnesian Wars. I know this sounds ridiculous, but it's true. This is happening because the Chinese seem to be looking -- and certainly analysts seem to be saying this is a classic case of a rising power and an established power.

And the possibility of friction and a dangerous spillover into any kind of risky behavior, they're addressing it.

How does the United States address that to China's satisfaction?

CAMPBELL: That's a great question. I have to tell you it's fairly unusual, sitting in the meeting rooms in the White House, in the Situation Room, to hear someone speaking about Sparta. But exactly that happened in the latter part of last year, this whole Peloponnesian conflict between Athens and Sparta.

And, in truth, in global politics, one of the most difficult and challenging periods is when there's a rising state and how they interact with an existing state in the international arena.

It's very challenging and this is exactly why this event, which frankly, is unique in U.S.-China relations -- we've always had these formal summits where there's a lot of pomp and circumstances.

This is the first time in 50 years that leaders will sit down, somewhat unscripted, to have a real conversation about our relationship. It's long overdue and important.

AMANPOUR: And you have said there needs to be more of this kind of thing, more sort of working meetings rather than these great big set piece, you know, statesmen summits.

What about the very key issues? You've mentioned Japan; there's obviously a dispute and a dilemma in the East China Sea right now over those islands. I don't know how that's going to be resolved.

In addition, what is President Obama going to say and what does he hope to achieve when he converses with President Xi over hacking? The U.S. believes the Chinese have hacked even into sophisticated defense systems.

CAMPBELL: I think at the top of President Obama's agenda will be a few issues. Number one will be cyber; number two will likely be North Korea, and then there will be some associated issues associated with maritime security, energy security, Iran and the like.

I think we will have some success on the first two issues. This is not because of some great goodwill between the United States and China. But frankly, because China is so poorly positioned, Christiane, on both cyber-security and North Korea, they need to readjust.

They need to stop their indiscriminate attacks against businesses and the U.S. government and, on North Korea, they've got to take a much tougher in with respect to the misbehavior and the provocations on Pyongyang's part.

AMANPOUR: So what can we expect on North Korea? Because we've seen certainly even early this year a lot of heated rhetoric, potentially North Korea doing more missile tests, et cetera. They've already done nuclear tests. And there seems to be no idea or sense that China has been able to rein in North Korea.

Do you believe, as some are reporting, that it is China's design now to see a denuclearized North Korea?

CAMPBELL: Look, I think what they want more than anything else is stability on the Korean Peninsula. They'd like denuclearization. But what they are very aware of is that this new leadership that North Korea is provocative and dangerous to their own strategic interests.

If you listen to the diplomacy, however, historically between China and North Korea, it's very patient; it's very gentle, quite in contrast to the tough line that China sometimes takes with its other neighbors.

AMANPOUR: What do you make of a certain insider who's talked to Reuters news agency that says that frankly, the meeting between the top North Korean military official who went to China recently didn't go that well?

I mean, it wasn't warm; it was very pro forma. They told China we are not giving up our nuclear program.

I mean, where does that relationship stand? And how does the U.S. fit into that?

CAMPBELL: Yes, look, people sometimes believe that there's a warm, flourishing relationship between North Korea and China. I don't think that's the case. In fact, I think the relationship is based more on a nostalgia for the Korean War and the long association of political parties.

But underneath it, a lot of distrust, a lot of anxiety, and I think the Chinese have just about had it with North Korea. They recognize that the steps that they have taken, nuclear, provocations, are creating the context for more military activities on the part of the United States and other countries that ultimately are not in China's best strategic interests.

AMANPOUR: And you have also said -- in fact, many people look at this so-called pivot to Asia and they say, OK. Hang on a second. What exactly does that mean?

And does it mean abandoning or thinking that like the Middle East is done and we can sort of, you know, just sail off into the Asian seas?

You've talked about responsibility as well during this pivot.

CAMPBELL: Look, anyone who says that the United States should cut and run from the Middle East and South Asia just doesn't understand the consequences of doing something like that.

First of all, we would undermine the confidence of all of our partners and friends in Asia, many of whom have made substantial contributions to peace and stability in Iraq; the largest supporter of civil society in Afghanistan is Japan in many respects.

So we've got to do this carefully. I think the general point is that we were perhaps overinvested for 10 or 15 years in the Middle East and South Asia. Our destiny continues to involve these countries and the swirling politics involved there.

However, we have to recognize that trade, economic pursuits, the drama of the growth of the largest middle class in history across Asia, this propels us towards closer engagement between the United States and Asia. We've got to step up to the plate and do that. I believe firmly that the United States has the capacity to be globally engaged.

But I do know that for the United States to be effective, we have to step up our game in Asia going forward.

AMANPOUR: Kurt Campbell, former U.S. assistant secretary of state, thank you very much for joining me.

CAMPBELL: A pleasure to be with you. Thank you very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So we will closely be reading the tea leaves after the Sunnylands summit.

And after a break, President Obama's new focus on China means a more hands-off approach in the Middle East. That is ominous news for Syria, where the body count keeps rising and journalists have become an endangered species. I'll speak to a renowned photographer who almost died in the line of duty and lived to tell us about it. That's when we come back.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Eighty thousand people have been killed in Syria and dozens of journalists have, too. They've given their lives covering the carnage.

Among them, the legendary reporter Marie Colvin, who was killed telling us about the terrible plight of civilians under the withering siege of Homs last year.

Matching the pictures to Colvin's words was British photographer Paul Conroy. Indeed, he was with her when she was killed, just hours after she had called CNN with this tragic report from Homs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIE COLVIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The baby's death was just heartbreaking, possibly because he was so quiet. One of the first shocks, of course, was the grandmother had been helping -- completely coincidentally -- helping in the emergency room, and just started shouting, "That's my grandson, where did you find him?"

And then the doctor said there's nothing we could do. And we just watched this little boy, his little tummy heaving and heaving as he tried to breathe. It was horrific. Just -- I mean, my heart broke.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Those words are so poignant and so powerful. And Paul Conroy now has written a very personal account of Marie's final assignment and her final hours in his book, "Under the Wire."

Paul Conroy joins me now from London.

Welcome to the program. Thanks for being with me.

PAUL CONROY, PHOTOGRAPHER: It's a pleasure, thank you.

AMANPOUR: Paul, you have gone through so much. And before we get to that final siege and that final set of hours of Marie's life -- and you were with her -- what is it that you want to say with this book?

And you've -- you know, you've made it about Marie's final assignment.

What message are you trying to send out?

CONROY: I mean, first of all, it was the story of Syria seen through the eyes of two people who look very low level. It was all very Heath Robinson up there. We had to sneak in. And I think people need to see that -- obviously to see the stories of what was coming out of Syria.

But the purpose of the book was also to draw attention to the fact that it was not just me and Marie. There was a lot of people out there trying to get this news out, some of the rigors, the hardships and what then people suffered on a very low--level basis as opposed -- to personalize the whole matter.

AMANPOUR: And look, it is a horrible irony that the -- you know, last year, it was Homs and you were both covering it. And this year, it's Homs or near Homs again, it's Qusayr, a very vital, strategic town that we've been talking about.

But truly nobody really knows, none of us have really seen the human tragedy that's going on inside. It is hard for outside reporters to do it.

How did you two get into Homs?

CONROY: We were smuggled across the border. It took weeks to set up with arms smugglers, smugglers really who knew the secret paths into Syria. We then spent maybe a week crossing Syria with them, sections of the FSA who -- we traveled day by day, night by night.

Eventually we were put in a 3-kilometer storm drain and we literally bent double with all our bags, went in with the Free Syrian Army into Baba Amr, a horrible journey in.

But when we got there, what we saw was -- it put all our worries into nothingness, you know, the sheer random destruction was breathtaking.

AMANPOUR: Tell me about the human cost. Tell me about the people who you saw, because we hear the figures, 80,000. It was less than 10,000 when you were there. So it's now 70,000 more people have died, have been killed.

Why is it so hard? And what kind of a life are they living in the shadows, the civilians who are the victims?

CONROY: I think you got it right there when you said they're living in the shadows. If you traveled around Bagram or Homs in the daytime, you would be forgiven for thinking it was a ghost town, that people did not exist, that people couldn't exist in this rubble.

But at night if you went out, then there would be little faces out of windows. And children would come out when the shelling stopped. And it's an existence that we got a tiny fragment of the life they lead, horrendously traumatic for women and children, anybody there. And they existed in the shadows of night, between massive artillery, of bombardments.

AMANPOUR: Tell me about that last night. Tell me what was the urgency of the reporting and then what happened hours later when your location was under fire.

CONROY: Yes, I mean, that day, the Tuesday that we were in Baba Amr, the bombardments had got to such a fever pitch that we actually thought -- you know, we were -- we knew we were in big trouble. Nobody could move. It was -- I had never seen a sea of bombardments of that intensity.

We really wanted to get to the field hospital because that was the central focus of the regime's fire. And if you could get to that hospital, the field hospital, you could gauge by the incoming, by the wounded, by the injuries what was going on.

We planned to do that at 5:00 am before the snipers -- before it was visibility for the snipers. Unfortunately, we missed that deadline through sleep, failure somewhere down the line. And we tried to go at 7:00.

As we woke up and started to wake up our fixer, the shelling started. Being an ex-artilleryman, it was my job -- exactly the same job to call in artillery bombardments. And I recognized the fighting pattern, the bracketing.

And also the people in the media center realized that this was -- something was about to happen. And before we knew it, really, the house had taken three direct hits. And it was the fourth missile that unfortunately took the life of Marie and Remy.

AMANPOUR: Marie and Remy Ochlik, the French photographer.

So you're saying from your military experience, you believe that this was a direct hit?

A deliberate hit?

CONROY: Absolutely, a deliberate hit, yes. I mean, I'm -- I live under no illusion that this was anything other than a murder. They were very experienced. The gunners who did that knew what they were doing; it was precise. There was no random fight about it. Like most of the fire in Baba Amr it seemed to be random. You would very rarely detect a pattern.

From where I stood, I heard the two four bracketing shots, that is shots left, right, get closer, left, right again. Then direct, the same hits, on the media center; that that was no accident, I can assure you.

AMANPOUR: From your experience in that hospital under siege in Baba Amr, that suburb of Homs, that area of Homs under siege, what do you think is going on now inside Qusayr? We hear thousands of people are wounded. They have very little water, medicine, food. Both the United States and all sorts of international authorities have asked for the civilians and the wounded to be able to be moved out.

What do you think is happening in the heat of that battle right now?

CONROY: I dread to think. It's such a deja vu to hear. I've been to al-Qusayr. I know the town; I know it well. I know the people well. And it's horrifying to think that they're enduring anything -- they will be undercover in the daylight. In the daylight, there will be no movement. There will be attempts to break through the Free Syrian Army lines, which will be thin.

There will be no food. There will be no water. There will be sheer terror at the intensity of the bombardments. And as I say, at -- it's something I dread, to think what the people of Qusayr are going through now. And they will be wondering -- as they did in Baba Amr and Homs -- where is the world? That's what they'll be asking.

If you got through that cordon now and you got into there, they would be saying why have been forgotten again?

AMANPOUR: Now Qusayr is on the border with Lebanon. Homs is very close to that. You were able to get out. It was a harrowing escape for you after the artillery strike that killed Marie and Remy.

But Hezbollah has now joined the fight. That border has become much, much more dangerous.

Tell me about how you got out and do you think you would be able to manage that now?

CONROY: I think that border now would be almost -- it would be impossible, I would say now, because when we came in, we had to dodge Hezbollah positions coming in. And at the time, me and -- Marie and I were in Qusayr.

And there were -- they were going out -- the rebels were going out at night to face Hezbollah a year and a half ago. But now that they're -- Nasrallah has accepted that they're there in force, that border will be impenetrable. I got out on a motorbike with -- one rebel on a motorbike took me across that border using smuggling tracks.

I do not think I could make that journey now with the Hezbollah situation. They're trapped from the south, the north, the west. And they're being squeezed against that border.

AMANPOUR: You're only just recovering from your injuries. It's been a long haul for you medically.

Do you think that you will go back? I know you want to cover the story. Will you?

CONROY: I would go back if I wasn't a -- I think morally, I can't be a liability. I want to go back. I want to cover the story. But the leg being what it is, if I don't feel I can run at the same speed as them guys who got me out last time, I would hate to put meself on the line where they had to help me and therefore endanger themselves.

So it will be -- this is my make, on the strength of the leg. And if I honestly can put me hand on me heart and say that I am not a liability to them, I don't want to become the story again. I want to cover the story.

AMANPOUR: Well, thank you for telling us your story. And we wish you the best and a full, full recovery, Paul.

CONROY: Thanks a lot. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having us on.

AMANPOUR: And of course, Marie Colvin is one of 45 journalists who have been killed there in witness to the relentless war that started in Syria more than two years ago now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, we started the program speaking of America's pivot away from the Middle East and toward Asia. Now imagine a world where China has gone in the opposite direction, investing in the Middle East and soaking up its greatest treasury.

As "The New York Times" reports, Iraq now leads the world in oil production. But its top customer isn't the coalition that brought down Saddam Hussein at a cost of nearly 5,000 of its military casualties and over 100,000 Iraqi civilian lives.

No. The big winner is a country that never fired a shot or took a bullet in the Iraq War and certainly didn't approve it.

China buys almost half of Iraq's oil and wants even more to fuel its booming economy. This revelation has sparked outrage among some quarters here in the United States. But time might be better spent learning from China's example.

While the U.S. Army struggled even to find translators to help it after the war in Iraq, China's oil men have become fluent in Arabic and even speak it with an Iraqi accent.

To the victors go the spoils, but the victors this time are the ones who seem to be winning the peace.

That's it for tonight's program. You can always contact us on our website, amanpour.com. And you can always follow on Facebook and Twitter. Thanks for watching and goodbye from New York.

END