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Amanpour
Turkish Protesters Clash With Police
Aired June 11, 2013 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN ANCHOR: Indeed, welcome to viewers around the world and in the United States as we continue CNN's breaking news coverage of these demonstrations that are continuing in Taksim Square, in the center of Istanbul, which is in Turkey, which is, of course, one of the main regional players in that region, a very critical ally of the West, including the United States.
Prime Minister Erdogan forging a deep political and personal bond with President Obama here in the United States and with many leaders in Western Europe, also vital as the world deals with issues and crises like Iran and Syria.
Tonight, this is now 12 hours into a perpetual standoff between now police and protesters in Taksim Square. It started just about two weeks ago with a peaceful protest by elements of people in Istanbul who were trying to protect the environment, they said. They were protesting and objecting to a government plan to turn a pond near Taksim Square into a development, a mall and other such things.
Then over the last several weeks, we have seen how those protests spread across the country, even to the capital, Ankara, and there have been all sorts of images broadcast around the world of police responding by water cannon and tear gas, protesters using Molotov cocktails and fireworks.
And the question really is, how does this end? Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan was out of the country when these protests first began and by all accounts was taken by surprise, this being the first major challenge to his rule. He's now in his third term. He served about 11 years in power at the helm. And after all the progress that he has brought to Turkey, sidelining the very intrusive Turkish military from politics, instituting democratic reforms, instituting even reforms in the police system and, indeed, the judicial system, there are many Turks who now believe that he is growing way too authoritarian and too arrogant.
At first, Prime Minister Erdogan dismissed these protesters as louts, as riffraff. He then said that he wanted to talk to at least some of them those he said who were the legitimate protesters. He's condemned what he calls people who have joined this movement and hijacked it. He says that they are trying to undermine Turkey, trying to damage Turkey's booming economy and trying to give Turkey a bad name.
We want to go right now to our correspondents on the scene. We have been talking to Nick Paton Walsh and Arwa Damon. And anyone who has been following this for the last several hours has seen them with their gas masks on and tear gas is fired.
What we can see right now is that the pictures show a fairly quieter situation than was the case even half-an-hour ago. Seems to be a series of cat and mouse games between the police and the protesters with the police coming in and the protesters being shunted aside or running to escape the tear gas and then surging back. Now it looks a little quieter.
Nick there in Taksim Square, what does it feel like on the ground now?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you mentioned, things quieting down, Christiane.
We have seen a number of riot police now moving towards the road that is on the left of Gezi Park, firing a substantial volley of tear gas in that direction. I think through the fog of my gas mask and the burnt light here, you can see in sort of the embers of the fire some protesters are moving down that particular road.
I believe that's what the riot police were aiming this massive volley of tear gas again at. If wafted up across the square towards our live position here, meaning of course I have to wear this gas mask. So, apologies for how hard it is to hear me.
But we're trying to see exactly how many protesters have gathered down that vital left-hand road that heads down Gezi Park that has been the scene of so many of the standoffs here.
But, Christiane, this is just a repeat cycle of violence between both sides in many ways. I have to confess, having said that, I haven't seen in the dark here exactly how the protesters are responding to the police, but each time they rally back in the center, they're tear gassed again, to the point now where the last volleys have been so intense they seem now to have been settling down the side streets away from Taksim Square itself.
It's hard to make how many. I think in this side street here, I see possibly 50. There have been in the past many down the other side roads here too. The question of course now is we have no question, no doubt that the Turkish police have (INAUDIBLE) equipment and the number if necessary in force. Exactly how do they intend to use that to restore control here? Because as you were saying, this is exactly what Turkey's economy doesn't need to broadcast -- Christiane.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Nick, you have been covering this virtually from the beginning. You have been in Ankara. You have been elsewhere.
You have seen it evolve. How heavy-handed has the riot police been tonight compared to what you have seen before? Are there armored columns moving against people? Are they standing back and using the tear gas and the water cannons? Give me a sense of the police action tonight compared with perhaps the worst a week or so ago?
WALSH: Let's take you back a little bit about eight, nine days ago in Ankara, the capital, where police were roaming the streets, small numbers of protesters facing them, some occasionally chucking rocks, but the sheer excess of tear gas being used then was remarkable.
They even -- police even kicked our cameraman seemingly for no reason. I saw them use a baton on another perfectly harmless protester simply walking down the street. That was menacing in some ways. Then there was a lull in which negotiation took over. They wanted to talk to protesters.
Throughout today, when we first ran to the square here and riot police had moved in, they were calm. They strolled, it seemed. They didn't immediately surge in looking for confrontation, but they found it quite quickly. It's fair to say that some of the protesters are hard-core here. Some of them were holding the flags of Kurdish or ultra-Marxist-Leninist parties. They were equipped for a fight.
AMANPOUR: OK.
WALSH: They had fireworks aiming -- aiming them at armored vehicles. They had rocks, too.
AMANPOUR: All right. Nick, thank you.
I need to go now to Istanbul, I believe, and to talk to Saban Disli, who is a member of the AKP, the foreign relations committee, and a member of parliament.
What can you tell me -- thank you first for joining me, Mr. Disli -- about how the prime minister is going to resolve this standoff?
SABAN DISLI, MEMBER OF TURKISH PARLIAMENT: I think things will gradually have to go down.
We at first have to separate those vandalous, extremist terrorists from the peaceful demonstrators, environmentalists or other people who demand something. The prime minister tomorrow will be speaking from representatives of E.U., from representatives of movie stars, or I don't know how you call them, or other interest groups.
Today, in the (INAUDIBLE) party group (INAUDIBLE) I am sure people have told you, he has requested from the people, please stop this. Let's talk, because it -- all of this damaging small business owners, the hotel owners and freedom in especially Istanbul and the rest of the places where these demonstrations are taking place.
So this is actually out of environmentalist demonstrations. There are groups who are to turn this into a cause. They are really using the Molotov cocktails and everything. I'm sure, your people, cameramen, are showing it around. They are damaging almost everything. So, we have to first -- I think this morning, the governor of Istanbul has, by using the social media and the television stations, called the people, not the people in the Gezi Park and the Taksim, that they can stay there. Of course, as I said, the prime minister and the other representatives of (INAUDIBLE) will be talking to their representatives and try to separate those those vandalous terrorists from this peaceful group.
AMANPOUR: OK.
Mr. Disli, it appears that the government said it would not go into the Gezi Park area, would not send the police into that area, and then we saw on live television more than an hour ago that at least tear gas and some police presence did go into that area.
How are the people meant to respond when they think that they're being told one thing and quite another thing happens?
DISLI: No, what has been told is exactly being followed up.
We tell the people -- and actually they -- you can see they created a human chain. Those demonstrators, peaceful demonstrators , will not let those terrorist groups in them, because they are being used by terrorist groups. They are really clashing with everyone, the banks, and the police and the public buildings and everything.
So first we have to separate them with the other peaceful group. And we have to do something to separate them. Prime minister today requested please go home and let's talk with your representatives in the party group. Otherwise, we cannot let things go like that. We are negotiating (INAUDIBLE) we know how to handle these kinds of things. We have trained for this.
For the first day, of course, talking with the president, everybody almost apologized that there was extreme use of police force. But now police is ordered not to do anything unless they are being attacked. And this standing is still continuing.
But after these talks with these representatives, we cannot go like this. And how did you handle Occupy in New York, Occupy in London, or whatever demonstrations? We have to stop this, because, otherwise, it is demoralizing our economy. It will be demoralizing our people.
At the end of the day, we are a democratically elected government. And these elections have been observed by all international observations -- observations, and they have written the (INAUDIBLE) that this was fair elections. We are only being criticized by the 10 percent threshold, nothing other than that.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Disli, I don't think anybody disputes the fair elections in Turkey. And, indeed, it seems that Mr. Erdogan won at least 50 percent the last time around. So, his victory is clear and it is solid.
But I hear you talking about extremists, and I hear you talking about terrorists. And that does seem to me an over-exaggeration of who these people are.
DISLI: No. No.
AMANPOUR: So, I want to ask you -- let me ask you something. Do you accept that even those who voted for Mr. Erdogan are feeling the burden of an increasingly authoritarian prime minister?
DISLI: This is what the international media altogether trying to create the image.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: No, sir, this is what the people there are saying.
(CROSSTALK)
DISLI: This was Erdogan when he was the mayor of Istanbul. This was Erdogan 10 years ago and this is the same Erdogan.
And you cannot change people standing after the -- they (INAUDIBLE) so this is now new Erdogan. This has never been new Erdogan. He has been the A.K. party government or the existing government has been very open to the people. But since last three, four months, the opposition party started this motto, the -- Erdogan as dictator in Europe.
And now the international media by using the social media is trying to create such an image. He is not like that. He has been talking with all international leaders. I mean, how can a democratically elected leader, so many people at 3:00 a.m. in the morning, over 200,000 people meeting him on the streets? And the international media, as I said, altogether are not behaving biasedly -- are kind of...
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: All right.
DISLI: ... and trying to create such an image.
And this is very bad for Turkish economy. It will affect the -- all other economies. And we have just received an investment grade. And this is not going to help at all to the Turkish economy.
AMANPOUR: All right, one last question. The prime minister said this is not a Turkish spring. Do you worry within the A.K. party that this could develop into a much bigger challenge?
DISLI: No, because I think end of today, except those groups which I told you exist all the time they use the motto, we don't want. We want (INAUDIBLE) in Istanbul. They said, no, we don't want be it. We want (INAUDIBLE) Istanbul. We want (INAUDIBLE) their only thing is, we don't want.
We (INAUDIBLE) from those who really environmentalists, and their demands should be met.
AMANPOUR: All right.
DISLI: Of course, we have received the message from the people.
But you always know and trust the people's power. This is how we came to the power and then to govern there this country. We understand it. We received the message. This has been told to the people by acting minister when the prime minister was out of country, by president, by every party member.
AMANPOUR: OK.
DISLI: And after one week at every occasion, at the Cabinet, at the (INAUDIBLE) everywhere, we are discussing the situation. And, again, we have to use international (INAUDIBLE) to stop this violence. And the...
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Mr. Disli, Mr. Disli, thank you very much indeed for joining us, Saban Disli, a member of the A.K. party and a member of parliament.
And we're going now to Nick Paton Walsh in Istanbul again near Taksim Square.
You heard what Mr. Disli said. We have heard the protesters. We have got their message. We understand what they want.
What are they saying to you?
WALSH: Certainly, the people who continue to come on to the streets -- and we have seen some of the dynamism of the protests ebb to a degree because you have also seen a slowing in the police heavy-handed tactics.
But many of them simply feel disenfranchised. They simply feel the that creeping conservatism of the Erdogan administration and much of the cynicism that they have been promoting, not enforcing, but promoting on much of the population here, popular amongst the 50 percent who vote for Prime Minister Erdogan, but less popular amongst those secular groups who have formed part of the demonstrations we have seen here over the weekend.
Christiane, I should just let you know the live pictures you're seeing involve further volleys of tear gas. There have been very small numbers of protesters moving back in the square towards police. That's been met with another substantial volley of tear gas pouring out of square now.
But the real question many of the protesters have been asking themselves is exactly how can our voices be heard in this particular condition? We come to the streets for freedom of assembly like this and are met with police tactics of this nature. Are we being allowed our right to express ourselves in a democracy?
Now, of course, there's a payoff to that. They have to keep some sort of functioning economy here in the very heart of Istanbul. You can imagine how in many capitals across the world sit in protest that disrupt traffic and business won't be tolerated indefinitely.
But it's the sheer volume of tear gas, it's the heavy-handedness of the police, it's the injuries reported, it's the tear gas rounds I'm seeing fired now in the dark towards protesters right in front of me, that's what's encouraged condemnation from Washington, from the European Union, and asked many to say to themselves, well, if you are going to permit free protests, at exactly what point is it acceptable to bring in riot police at this particular level? -- Christiane.
AMANPOUR: I don't know whether you heard what he said to me when I asked him about an increasingly authoritarian streak in Erdogan, and he said this is Erdogan who's always been like this, whether he was mayor of Istanbul or ever since he's been president. Erdogan hasn't changed.
But, clearly, the people are changing. And it looks like, no matter how this is resolved, it will have changed the people's perception of what they can and can't do. Do you think from what you have heard from them that they want the government overthrown? What do they want, beyond the original protest about the park?
WALSH: Christiane, I'm sorry. I have had to put my gas mask on, because the tear gas is wafting towards us, but I can continue to talk.
People here are divided in the outcome they want to see. There are some who chant and their main focus of their chants is they want to see the resignation of Tayyip Erdogan. But that's not -- you have seen other protests, I'm sure, yourself in Ukraine or Thailand entirely focused on the dismissal and resignation of the head of the -- of the functionary, of the prime minister or president, for example.
This has not been the singular goal here. They have put forward their (INAUDIBLE) platform demands, which wanted the resignation of those behind the police violence, wanted Gezi Park to be left intact, that wanted tear gas to no longer be used in circumstances like this.
The resignation of the democratically government wasn't central to those demands. So, while the protesters are in some ways united in their anger at police tactics, they're not united in the kinds of demands they seek from the Erdogan administration.
And that of course gives the Erdogan administration a significant advantage in negotiation, because they're not dealing with people who have a specific aim that they can whittle away. This violence we're seeing in the center of the city has been fueling so much of the popular response of the past 10 days, people simply moving out to express their anger at the heavy-handed tactics of police.
And that was (INAUDIBLE) because the larger the crowds, the more the police violence. And then you saw more people coming on to the streets. We have to see how this heavy-handed response plays out in the hours ahead, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Indeed.
And on the live pictures, as you're talking, it looks like we have seen pictures of columns of these police helmeted and in full riot gear walking along there.
I want to go now to Ozga Moncher (ph), a columnist from the radical newspaper in Istanbul.
Mr. Moncher (ph), what do you think is going to be the end state here? How is this going to end?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, nobody really knows how it's going to end.
As long as Mr. Erdogan doesn't step back and accept at least some of the reasonable requests of the platform, I don't think -- I can't foresee an end to that. And the people are asking for the responsible of all this violence to be tried or at least taken -- they want the appropriate measures to be taken and they want the end of this project for Taksim, Gezi Park. And for the moment, nothing has been done. And the police violence has been increasingly (INAUDIBLE) in the public life.
AMANPOUR: You heard the member of parliament there telling us that the prime minister still intends to meet with a group of protesters, particularly those who call themselves environmental protesters, regarding the plans for Gezi Park.
Do you think that that will happen, and how do you think that conversation is going to go? What can the prime minister say to allay their concerns?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I don't really know who are going to meet with the prime minister.
But it has been 14, 15 days right now. And he has waited so long to meet with people. And I have been following his speeches. He has given six consecutive speeches in one day. And he was very harsh. And the fact that he's being that harsh and just using very authoritarian language does -- really taught the people to -- that does not encourage people to have a dialogue with him.
And I don't know who the people are who are the people chosen to speak with him, but I hope that he can -- that the dialogue channels will be open and that that can help to end the situation. But the police attack that we have witnessed today won't really help the dialogue at all.
AMANPOUR: Ozga Moncher (ph), thank you very much indeed for joining us.
And we continue to welcome our viewers around the world and here in the United States as we cover this breaking story in Istanbul, Turkey.
We're going to go straight now to Arwa Damon, who is in Gezi Park.
Arwa, what is the situation there right now?
ARWA DAMON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's pretty chaotic.
It's very fluid. There was a fair amount of pretty intense tear gas that was lobbed into here not too long ago, forcing a lot of those who have been camped demonstrating in the park to actually push back. People have been trying to move forward, getting pushed back as well.
A lot of people really expressing their determination. We were earlier hearing chants of people saying, this is just the beginning, that the resistance is going to continue.
Now, I'm joined by Melich (ph). She's 27 years old. She's an I.T. professional. And she's been here pretty much since the very beginning.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since Friday, actually.
Just began as a peaceful demonstration here. And we're not vandalizing anything. We're not trying to throw stones at police. We're just trying to stay here and protest against this place being a shopping mall.
DAMON: So there's something of a difference between what you're trying to do here and some of the clashes that we're seeing taking place. And we did earlier see members from the Gezi Park administration try...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Actually, I have seen a lot of times.
There are some people trying to vandalize stuff and then lots of others trying to stop those people. Most of the time, we think that those are probably civilian police.
(CROSSTALK)
DAMON: Now you heard some of what the prime minister said earlier today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
DAMON: How did that make you feel and where do you think this situation goes from here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's actually very disappointing, because we just shoved off. We are just trying to make ourselves heard. This is a place of community. And we are using this place.
And we do not want a shopping mall here and other things beyond that. But the prime minister repeatedly refused to hear. He's just saying that he is the president of the 50 of the country and rest of us is ignored. It's pretty disappointing.
DAMON: Now, this obviously started out about this park, has since become about so much more.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
DAMON: What is it about for you and for the others who are here today? What does this all mean? And, again, resolved, what can the government do to try to end this situation?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually, up to this point, it's been kind of building up step by step.
The government and prime minister is trying to get involved in our lives. And it's actually beyond the personal space. So, I'm pretty ashamed to tell that I'm not a political person. This is my first demonstration, by the way.
This is the first time that I am -- that the police is against me. This is the first time in my life so -- but kind of -- things kind of did build up to this point because of the government and their regulations so far. So, it's -- and most of the people are like that. I'm seeing classmates, work mates here. And those people are really peaceful.
DAMON: Not the extremists that the government is...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm just wearing a flimsy mask. This isn't how a violent person behaves.
DAMON: So, again, but what is it that the government can do at this point to end this escalating situation that is getting worse by the day?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually, what they can do is to just stop denying that this is illegal and vandalizing it. What they can do is ask the people what they can do with this place and other stuff as well. They have been making polls about the shape of the ships across -- with areas across the (INAUDIBLE) and why not this? Why (INAUDIBLE) what to do with this place.
DAMON: So, but for you and for those that are -- for the government to reverse its policy about what it wants to do to the park, but what about for everybody else? Because the situation -- more now, so how do you get all of that to end?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of course.
But most of the stuff is not (INAUDIBLE) the government can act on a whim. It shouldn't be able to do that. (INAUDIBLE) it's not -- it doesn't start and end with the elections. That's what we want. We want to be heard and respected, not -- not -- we try not to feel ourselves like criminals. We're not. We're not vandalizers. We're not criminals. But the police is acting like we are.
DAMON: And are you going to stay here all night, nothing is going to drive you back?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I may not be able to stay here all night because I have work to do, but, I mean, I have a job. But I will come back here day after day, night after night, after work, at the weekends, because, you know, it's just -- there's a limit that you can take, you know?
After that, it's -- it's just that we cannot take this anymore. The government shouldn't be able to say what they can do with the people, what it can do with this community. It shouldn't be that easy.
DAMON: Thank you. Thank you very much for joining us.
And, you know, Christiane, that's been a sentiment that we have been really hearing throughout the entire day here. It started out about a small environmental issue, escalated into so much more. And, really, a lot of the people that we're actually seeing up here in the park like Melich (ph) are professionals. They don't necessarily spend all day here, but we do see their numbers swelling at night.
And now it's become and escalated to a certain degree where they don't just want to see the plan to demolish this park reversed, but they also are going to want to see certain reforms being put into place by this government. It really needs to begin to change its attitude towards the population, towards that percentage of the population that did not vote for it for it to really begin to appease the wide variety and array of demonstrators that we're seeing in Istanbul today.
AMANPOUR: Arwa, thank you.
And, of course, it remains to be seen as to whether some of these protesters, certainly as the prime minister's been saying, the environmentalist groups which started the peaceful protests, actually do hold talks with him tomorrow, as everybody is saying is on the books.
Now, in the meantime, there are reports coming through. Reuters news reports say that the mayor of Istanbul, Kadir Topbas, is saying that the police will continue operations on Taksim Square day and night until it's cleared. Those are the words of the mayor of Istanbul.
So, what you have been watching over the last several hours is CNN's breaking news coverage of what's going on in Istanbul. This is now nearly two weeks of protests that has ebbed and flowed, began May 31 as a peaceful sit-in against the building of a mall in a green part, in Gezi Park of Taksim square.
And we have seen that that has been spread around the country over the last week or so, as people jump on this bandwagon and protest what they say is an increasing authoritarianism from their prime minister.
The government has been saying that, look, there are legitimate protesters and we want to talk to them. And we understand them, but there are also -- quote -- "vandals, extremists, terrorists" who are hijacking this and trying to bring down Turkey's economy and ruin Turkey's image abroad.
Who exactly these terrorists are, we're not quite sure, but we've been trying our best to follow this, and every in and out. So far there's been a sort of a cat-and-mouse game played on Taksim Square this evening with police coming in using their water cannons and their other tear gas, and the protesters have on some occasions been using firecrackers and Molotov cocktails.
We want to go now to Andrew Gardner who's with Amnesty International, and he has had a team of police -- or rather, people monitoring the police there. We're going to go to him as soon as we can.
Let's go to Nick Paton Walsh who's also on Taksim Square for another check on what exactly the state is right now.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, you can't see this on camera in the dark, but a very small group of protesters are just outside down the street below our bureau, trying to use corrugated iron as a shield. Some of them edging towards police; some, it seems, edging up on the side of Gezi Park, too ...
(AUDIO BREAK)
... towards these two. They just consistently reply with another barrage of tear gas. A lot being fired. It's pretty much omnipresent there, the fog of tear gas across the square at the moment.
What you had said there about Reuters reporting, the mayor of Istanbul saying this will continue until they have control of Taksim Square. Well, that begs the question, how do you define Taksim Square?
The police are evidently trying to exercise their control over what you would normally refer to as Taksim, and there's Gezi Park, appended to it. (Inaudible) seeking to move in there. It must be increasingly difficult inside with the amount of tear gas in this particular area right now to feel safe and comfortable in Gezi, a heavily wooded, secluded area.
This square foggy with tear gas, I'm sure you can see those pictures yourself. You have to really ask yourself, what are the police strategies here to stop the standoff, to stop the to-and-fro, the cat-and-mouse, as you described it, and actually retain control of areas, move protesters on, because as you see right now, this particular back and forth could go on for yet more hours and I've already been watching this for about 14 so far today, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: All right. Nick, you raise the question as to how this is going to actually be cleared in accordance with what the mayor of Istanbul has said.
He's says -- and he's calling for people to stay away for their own safety. He took to television in a brief statement to say, quote, "We'll continue our measures in an unremitting manner, whether day or night, until marginal elements are cleared and the scare is open to people."
That seems to be the way the government is describing this entire protest week or more, that there are legitimate protesters and then there are, quote, "marginal elements," and, they say, extremists and terrorists.
We want to go now to Andrew Gardner of Amnesty International, as I just said. He's fielded a team on Taksim Square to monitor what the police are doing.
Andrew, what can you tell me about how the police are behaving insofar as your people are observing?
ANDREW GARDNER, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL (via telephone): What we've seen all day today is extreme police violence against peaceful demonstrators.
There can be absolutely no justification whatsoever for this level of violence and it comes directly following the prime minister's inflammatory statements against the protesters today, and he bears personal responsibility for this violence.
AMANPOUR: What have you -- are you standing in Taksim now and how do you think that this is going to end?
You've just heard what we've said about the mayor of Istanbul who's asking people to stay away for their own safety and who says the police will continue, quote, "unremitting efforts" to clear this square, no matter how long it takes.
GARDNER (via telephone): I'm at Amnesty International's office, which is in Taksim close to the square, and I've been in both Gezi Park and Taksim Square throughout the day.
And I think what's been obvious through the past two weeks of demonstrations, that each time when the government uses even more force against the protesters, the protesters just come back in greater numbers and their anger is even greater and they're even more determined to protest.
So what it looks like is happening now is an escalation of the situation, not a calming measure which should have been brought by the government.
AMANPOUR: Of course as we're looking at these live pictures, at least in some areas where the cameras are directed, things do seem to be a lot calmer.
What has the general sort of trend been? Do people go home at night, come back again? What does it look like in terms of an evolving situation over the last several days?
GARDNER (via telephone): Over the last several days, tens of thousands of people have been filling Taksim Square every evening, when the biggest number's have been the people protesting in the evening and through the night.
When the protests started, this was certainly true in Istanbul, in Ankara and also in the other major city in Izmir in the west. So I think we can expect the same thing to happen now and for the anger of the protesters to be felt not just in Istanbul but in the other major cities all across Turkey as well.
And that's why Amnesty International is calling on the prime minister to urgently intervene, to end the inflammatory language and to commit to what he previously had said, which was negotiate with the protesters to prevent further death and further injury.
AMANPOUR: Now the prime minister himself says that some four people have been killed through these last 12 days or more of these protests.
Do you have any sense that there will be a meeting tomorrow between the prime minister and some of the protesters? And can you see a way to resolving that in such a meeting?
GARDNER (via telephone): I think that's the only way to resolve it. However, I've got no confidence that that meeting will take place.
And even if it does take place, it will take place after such an escalation and such extreme police violence that it's very difficult to negotiate a situation now, given that (inaudible) as late as today that no intervention would take place in Gezi Park and that's exactly what happened.
And the prime minister committed to negotiated settlement with the protesters a short time ago and then changed that and committed to ending the protests by sort of personal edict.
So this is what's going to happen, but it's going to be so much more political after this night of violence.
AMANPOUR: Andrew Gardner of Amnesty International, thank you very much.
And I want to go back to Nick Paton Walsh who has been covering this virtually from the beginning and really reset for our viewers how this all started and how it sort of spun out of control, how these original protesters in Gezi Park then saw their protests morph into something much bigger and much more widespread.
Nick, walk us through that.
WALSH: Christiane, 12 days ago there was a protest in Gezi Park. And you're hearing, of course, a prayer behind me, ringing out over this battlefield almost in central Istanbul.
A central part of Taksim Square, Gezi Park, one of the last elements of greenery in this increasingly developed city center, that attracted a protest because there were conservationists angry at the prime minister's grandiose plan to eventually, at one point, put in a shopping mall then it became a museum, but effectively tear down those trees.
There was a heavy police response to move those protesters on. And in response to that police action, more people came out onto the streets, growing angry. Increasingly heavy-handed tactics from the police to disperse them. That spread to other cities across Turkey.
Again, the police responded to more people on the street by more tear gas and increased use of a strong arm and then we saw one particular night where it seemed like most of the major population centers of the country had some sort of standoff between protesters, often angry purely at police tactics and police firing tear gas.
We then had a lull and those clashes became more periodic. And we saw negotiations, certainly when I was in the capital of Ankara, police willing to talk to protesters and agreeing that you don't throw rocks, we won't fire tear gas.
But then deadlines began to be talked of. There's this ominous suggestion that a legal protest wouldn't be allowed. Prime Minister Erdogan, consistently referring to these protesters being marginals, extremists, as you just heard yourself.
And then this morning, last night, we saw the numbers of people in this square had ebbed significantly. There was a rowdy protest throughout the weekend, joyous, people drinking, dancing, music. Pretty much in some ways organized.
But as the working week got underway, those numbers thinned. As I walked through the square about midnight last night, there really were very few people. And, in fact, even those who had camped in Gezi Park, people in tents, almost an alternative utopian community they tried to create there in a short space of time, they were ebbing in number, too.
Of course, this morning police have seized upon those lower numbers and decided to move in. Now when we first came here, they were strolling in. They were calm in their approach. They weren't wearing -- from what I saw, they weren't wearing their helmets or particularly heavily armored.
But then protesters responded. There were clashes. It's fair to say I've seen during the day a hardcore element in the protesters who were prepared to repel police tactics. Whether that's something they would normally do or something they felt license to do because of heavy-handed police tactics earlier on, it's unclear.
But I've seen protesters fire fireworks, throw Molotov cocktails and rocks at the police. In fact, at one point, engulf a police vehicle, an armored police vehicle in flames, it was so heavily hit by Molotov cocktails.
The police did not respond today with the same vehemence and relentlessness we've seen in the past, but as the day's continued and the clashes have continued, we've heard more stun grenades, we've seen more tear gas.
And then tonight, as police piled out of the square and moved into a corner side street, suddenly vanishing, protesters moved back into Taksim. Again, that festive atmosphere started. Thousands of people gathering and suddenly we saw tear gas.
My colleague Arwa Damon suggesting that there was perhaps some altercation that may have provoked that, but there have been altercations all day and none of them merited that volley of tear gas, it seems.
That amount of tear gas fired directly into a large crowd gathered there, most of them peaceful and joyous in some ways, expressing their own freedom of speech in some way.
That caused panic, and then since then, we've just seen this back and forth, ebbing at this point of protesters dispersed by tear gas, who then rallied back towards the police, to be dispersed again by tear gas.
At this point as we edge towards that 11:00 local time here, we're seeing many less protesters in the square, this relentless cloud of tear grass. And as I talk to you, my sentences are punctuated by the sound of more tear gas being fired by riot police. It's unclear who their targets are. I'm pretty sure they can't see the people in the side streets because it's so dark in many ways.
This is a highly dangerous environment. Just simply the physical location we're in, it's a building site. There are underpasses with 30-foot drops in the dark where people fleeing could easily fall. There's rubble. There are metal poles sticking out of the ground. There's barricades and (inaudible) all over the place.
This is not a good place to be chasing protesters around at all, and the level of tear gas makes it very hard for people to see often where they're going. So there will be questions as to how many people have been injured tonight.
I've seen that when this amount of tear gas is used, Ankara certainly, asthmatics and people suffering from epilepsy were certainly affected, too.
Ambulances are on hand. We don't know anything about the impact this has had on protesters, too, but here we are. As I say, I've been watching this now for nearly 15 hours, and there doesn't seem to be a specific police plan to retain authoritative control over this vital part of the city.
And instead, Turkey's economy which has been at breakaway pace for the last decade under Prime Minister Erdogan, is seeing the stock market rocked, and images like this, frankly if you're a tourist, you don't want to come to a country like this where this happens in the very, very heart of the city.
Christiane?
AMANPOUR: Nick, indeed.
You know, it's so interesting to hear the way the government is describing all of this, the legitimate protesters versus what they call the radicals, the terrorists. You and I have been talking about that, what does that mean.
We heard one of the young protesters talking to Arwa who said, yeah, there do look like to have been some who have vandalized shops and the other, and we've asked for people to be restrained.
Can you give us a little bit more clarity. Do you know anything more about is there, you know, a group who are more sort of troublemakers and jumping on this, or is that just a government excuse?
WALSH: I think it's fair to say we've seen evidence of people prepared to fight the police. Some of those groups were bearing the flags of pro- Kurdish or ultra-Marxist/Leninists parties. I don't know if they're from those parties or just bearing their flags as some sort of alibi.
They were able to confront police. They were prepared. Is that a consequence of 12 days of back and forth exchanges, their feeling the need to defend themselves, or are they people who would normally look for a fight? We just don't know.
But I think it's fair to surmise here that a lot of the police response is directed towards the mass, not towards those few. And I've seen crowd control and riots handled by many different police forces.
The more professional ones, they isolate the troublemakers and whisk them away so they don't have to disperse the mass, the panic and risk of injury that that causes. We're simply not seeing that here.
And what is remarkable, and many people have remarked that to me as they observe the protests today, it's come clear how the police want to retain control. They move in, they cause a huge amount of chaos and then they sit there or fall back. And we just don't know quite what they wanted to achieve by all these clashes.
Christiane?
AMANPOUR: Nick, thanks.
And, of course, again, worth repeating that the mayor of Istanbul has gone on television to tell people to leave for their own safety and saying that the police will do what it takes.
He said unremitting measures to clear the square, and it will take however long it takes, he said.
I want to go now to Utku Cakirozer in Ankara. He is the bureau chief there for the newspaper, "Cumhuriyet."
Mr. Cakirozer, can you tell me what is going on in Ankara and whether there is this kind of protest and trouble there tonight?
UTKU CAKIROZER, ANKARA BUREAU CHIEF FOR "CUMHURIYET" (via telephone): Well, actually, the night started a bit quiet, but now I do hear a lot of voices coming out.
Probably people see what's happening there in Taksim would also be pouring into the streets and into the avenues of Ankara as it has happened in the previous nights in the last 13, 14 days.
It always continued each and every night after 9:00 p.m. I'm in (inaudible) in Kugulu. It's a park similar to Gezi Park in Istanbul. In Kugulu Park, people get -- it gets assembled.
In Kizalay (ph) Square, they get assembled and then -- but while people are coming together in those squares, big squares of the city, also in the other districts, in the suburbs of the capital city, the other people are using their -- the packs and they're sort of protesting the government's authoritarian attitudes towards the protesters by all means/
I mean, like the car drivers are using the -- their -- the noise of their cars. And people, ordinary people are on the streets protesting, shouting. And they're -- everybody is in a mood of protest, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: So you're there in the capital, Ankara. How do you think this is going to end? Is there going to be any kind of meaningful dialogue by the prime minister as he's called for and certain elements of these protesters? Do you think knowing the situation that this could calm it down or not?
CAKIROZER (via telephone): Well, Christiane, actually today, the day started with a glimmer of hope because yesterday the prime minister stated that the prime minister was going to meet with the representatives of the protest movement tomorrow, on Wednesday.
However, just very early in the morning as you have seen, now he still continues, the protesters in Taksim Square has started, it has become worse and worse during the day and I think the chances of any representative meeting with the prime minister tomorrow is near to nil. Very slim.
Although early in the morning, really we were hoping that in this meeting with the prime minister, there can be some sort of consensus, some sort of dialogue at least some of the requests of the protesters might be accepted we were hoping.
But now looking at what's going on there in Taksim Square, it would indicate at the very moment, I mean, it is very difficult.
And it seems, as you also mentioned through your broadcasting, I mean, both the Istanbul governor and the prime minister, I mean, they don't have in their latest statements today, they haven't shown any kind of sign of dialogue with the protest movement. That's very unfortunate.
AMANPOUR: Yes, I was going to ask you, what did you think when you saw the mayor of Istanbul on television a short while ago saying that this was going to continue, the police action, until the square is cleared?
CAKIROZER (via telephone): Yes. I mean, not only the mayor, but also the governor. Both of them used the similar -- similar attitude, but they're not alone.
I mean, it starts with the prime minister, of course. There are some actually moderate voices even in the government, like the prime minister, but also in state structure up to the president.
But unfortunately, the prime minister didn't share their approach and the way of dialogue with the protestors even though people are ready for a consensus and to solve this issue with finding a common way.
But it seems, I mean, the problem seems to be that the prime minister doesn't want to negotiate, even for the -- for any of those projects that he wants to build up to the Taksim Square.
That seems to be the sole problem that the prime minister doesn't want sort of a dialogue or a consensus with these protesters.
AMANPOUR: All right. All right, Utku Cakirozer, we are going to put that question right now to the prime minister's chief adviser. Ibrahim Kalin joins us on the phone right now.
Mr. Kalin, thank you very much for joining me. Do you think the prime minister will have these talks that he has called for and has agreed to, and will there be any meaningful result from them?
IBRAHIM KALIN, CHIEF ADVISER TO TURKISH PRIME MINISTER: Yes, the prime minister is planning to have the meeting tomorrow with representative of the peaceful protesters.
And, in fact, it's an important step on the part of the government after days of protests, attacks, you know, on public buildings, priority property, police, et cetera, and the tomorrow meeting, in fact, is an indication and confirmation of the fact that the government has made a clear distinction between peaceful protesters and troublemakers from the very beginning.
AMANPOUR: Right. I know that you've been saying that, but let me ask you this. The government also said that no police would go into Gezi Park and they did and they fired tear gas. And how are the people meant to trust the words from the government?
KALIN (via telephone): A little clarification there. Actually, the police did not go in, as far as I know, did not go into the Gezi Park. In fact, I'm looking at the pictures that you're showing. That's mostly from the Gezi Park area, are allowed and free to go around the Gezi Park.
They cleaned up the Taksim Square. There are two places there. They are close to each other. The morning interception was meant to clear up the square, not the Gezi Park. That was announced and that, as far as I know, that has been the case since this morning.
AMANPOUR: All right, can you be clear then? Are the protesters allowed to stay in Gezi Park? Because our reporter there, Arwa Damon, basically was there when tear gas was being fired into the park.
KALIN (via telephone): No, the protesters are there. In fact, the governor and the mayor have also announced it. The protesters are in Gezi Park at the moment.
AMANPOUR: And they're allowed to stay?
KALIN (via telephone): They're allowed to stay. The police have been in to clean up the squares. Maybe your viewers may not know these groups. These are mostly very marginal, some of them very illegal groups that have tried to dominate the scene and occupy the situation and, if you had a chance to look at some of their placards and their banners, et cetera, you clearly see the type of message they are giving.
AMANPOUR: We've heard many like NRS, certainly members of the prime minister's party make this distinction in calling many protesters radicals and who are these people you call terrorists?
Why do you not accept they're part of a broader and expanding protest movement?
KALIN (via telephone): Well, it's very clear. This is not any different from the methods used in, say, the U.K. to disperse the crowds. Today the G8, they stormed the building, and the same thing in the Occupy Wall Street events. The same thing happened in Greece and Spain and most recently in Sweden.
The police have the mandate to establish public order and peaceful process have been allowed to have random demonstrations in the park, but others this morning attacked the police with Molotov cocktails and sticks and whatever they can get and they are not peaceful protesters.
That's why the prime minister has reached out to have a dialogue about their concerns about many issues. You have to make distinctions to have a meaningful dialogue.
At least some of this marginal groups that have been attacking the police, public buildings, et cetera, anywhere in the world they will not be considered peaceful protesters.
AMANPOUR: So Mr. Kalin, what is the prime minister ready to give in his talks tomorrow, as you say still plan to go ahead with these protests. They've made several demands. What is the prime minister willing to give?
KALIN (via telephone): Of course, the message is very clear, that he's willing to have this dialogue, he's listening to these people.
And, of course, I cannot predict the contents of the discussion tomorrow, but his message, as he's been saying over the last two days, that he's willing to have this dialogue with the peaceful protesters, as long as their demands are democratic.
You know, calling a government to resign is not sufficient by itself. This is an elected government. People have been talking about the government having an authoritarian streak, the prime minister becoming almost a dictator. That accusation is completely false.
Turkey, the most recent election was held in 2011. The prime minister was elected with 60 percent of the vote.
But the picture people are trying to and some of the media, I have to say, are trying to depict is as if you have a dictatorship in Turkey, all life has come to a halt.
In fact, what you are showing on your screen is only a very, very small part of Istanbul.
AMANPOUR: Well, we are getting as wide a view as possible and that's why we're very grateful to be talking to you.
Let me ask you, will the government, will the prime minister agree not to, you know, raze Gezi Park, agree not to do this mall?
Also I have to ask you about the alcohol issue. That does worry a lot of Turkey's young, secular people, who are used to being able to have a beer in the square. People are worried about a creeping theocracy. I'm going to say it like that.
KALIN (via telephone): Well, again, I think this is really an expression of a great confusion about some of the measures that government has taken in recent years about, say, alcohol regulation.
The alcohol regulation that was passed and that was approved yesterday by the president, in fact, brings exactly the same international standards that you have anywhere in the world that you go to the U.K. or Germany or the United States.
It's not any different. It's the same global standards that the World Health Organization has instituted for the purchase and use of alcohol. It's not any different.
When you have the same regulation in the U.K., it's considered to be protecting the public from the consumption of alcohol. When you have the same thing in Turkey, it's suddenly theocracy? I'm having a hard time to understand this argument.
In regards to some of the protesters, I have to mention this, some of the people disrupting the public order, you have look at some of their flags, et cetera. Among them are the famous leftist organization which carried out the attack on the American embassy back in February which killed a couple of people there.
When you say these are all peaceful protesters ....
AMANPOUR: So the question, Mr. Kalin -- go ahead. Go ahead.
KALIN (via telephone): This is a meaningless statement people have been using. You have similar regulations.
In the U.K., for example, when Prime Minister Cameron says that there will be zero tolerance to all the disrupters, all the looters and plunderers, et cetera, this is considered a measure of protecting public order.
When police and other officials act in the same way in Istanbul, this is called authoritarianism? I'm trying to understand what's going on here. Is this a double standard or lack of understanding? Or maybe ...
AMANPOUR: Well, Mr. Kalin ...
KALIN (via telephone): ... I don't know.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Kalin, I'm not going to belabor this point, but you know that people are fed up with seeing journalists jailed, with seeing political space restricted.
But I want to ask you one final question and that are you going to -- how is the Istanbul police going to clear Taksim Square while allowing the protesters to stay in Gezi Park, in other words, separate what you call trouble-makers from legitimate protesters?
How are you going to do it because the mayor says it's going to continue until it's cleaned?
KALIN (via telephone): Well, Christiane, it's not going to be any different from what happened in the Occupy Wall Street events in some of the parks in New York or in London and other places, that is, there are designated areas for peaceful protesters to have their protests and those places have been designated.
In Istanbul, it's the Gezi Park area. In Ankara, it's Oran (ph) Park which is very close to the office of the prime minister.
And for any other march, illegal demonstration, et cetera, obviously, the police have to take a measure.
I'll give you one example. You know, you said, where is the concrete evidence. Last week on the second day of the protests on June 1st, Saturday, the prime minister ordered the police to leave the Taksim area and the Gezi Park.
And the police left this whole area at 4:00 p.m. on Saturday and we thought that this would calm things down. The same thing happened in Ankara. The Oran (ph) Park area was designated for the protesters to have their peaceful protest. Everything was going fine until 8:00 in the evening. Suddenly, a group of people started to march on toward the prime minister's office in (INAUDIBLE). Where you have interviewed (ph) the prime minister, if you remember, a couple of months ago.
And in Ankara, I was in the prime minister's building. The same group or similar groups began to march toward the building of the prime ministry. And of course, the -
AMANPOUR: OK.
KALIN (via telephone): -- can you imagine a situation where a group of - there are people with sticks and Molotov cocktails, etc. -
AMANPOUR: All right.
KALIN (via telephone): -- toward the White House, and allowing these people to attack public -
AMANPOUR: On that note - on that note, Mr. Kalin -
KALIN (via telephone): Let me just finish. I finish. The police are trying to -
AMANPOUR: Mr. Kalin, we've got to stop.
KALIN (via telephone): -- to have -
AMANPOUR: The show's over. Sorry, Mr. Kalin. Thank you very much indeed. We will continue to cover this. Right now, handing over to my colleague, Jake Tapper, to continue this breaking news for our viewers around the world and here in the United States.
END
