Return to Transcripts main page

Amanpour

Turkish Prime Minister Meets with Artists and Intellectuals; Egypt Finding Its Way

Aired June 12, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

In Ankara, a meeting between the Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, and a group of popular artists and intellectuals, has just ended after hours of discussion. Government officials called it a meeting with protesters meant to ease the tensions that flared into violence for hours last night.

But demonstrators claim those who did meet with the prime minister don't represent their side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): We're looking at a live picture now as demonstrators gather again in Taksim Square.

Still, it remains quiet but obviously tense. And there's no question that Turkey has changed over these past few days in June. The people feel empowered and they want their voices heard. And we are hearing right now that the prime minister may be offering some kind of referendum over the fate of Gezi Park.

Now immediately after the Arab Spring, Turkey's Islamist-flavored democracy was held up as a model for Arab revolution. So these demonstrations in Turkey have been watched carefully around the world, particularly in Egypt, which has also seen mass demonstrations in the last several months against its Islamist president, Mohammed Morsi.

And in a moment, I'll have an exclusive interview with Egypt's prime minister.

But first, on the phone, we have now with us one of the participants in the meeting with the prime minister of Turkey. He is filmmaker Kutlug Ataman, and he joins me from Ankara.

Mr. Ataman, thank you for being with me. Can you tell me first what the prime minister has said about resolving this dispute?

What can you tell us he said, for instance, about perhaps a referendum on Gezi Park and the development?

KUTLUG ATAMAN, FILMMAKER: It was a very long meeting, nearly five hours. Both sides expressed their concerns and their issues. At the end of the meeting, the PM agreed to propose a referendum to the central decision-making committee of the party, because it has to be a democratic process.

He is not able to make this decision all alone. But it is -- he offered to carry this decision, this proposal to the party and we hope that there's going to be a consensus to have administrable (ph) referendum in Istanbul to decide the future of the Gezi Park.

AMANPOUR: So would you --

(CROSSTALK)

ATAMAN: However, I -- Christiane, I -- it's very important here that I stress that we are indeed not representatives of anyone. We are independent people who came out because -- we came here because we care and we are concerned and we are all professionals in our own areas. And we only offered our -- you know, knowledge to be able to mediate (inaudible) problem.

AMANPOUR: So, Mr. Ataman, let me ask you then, Mr. Ataman, since you now say that you do not represent the protesters officially, is it up to you to carry this idea of a referendum back to the protesters?

What is the process?

What does the prime minister want you to do?

ATAMAN: I am sure you heard about this because you heard about one of the ministers going off the press and explaining this process to press, and this is how you heard about it.

So (inaudible) is that they are going to have a meeting at the party headquarters. They're going to make this decision and they are going to make this a democratic process --

AMANPOUR: OK --

ATAMAN: -- obviously --

AMANPOUR: Mr. Ataman?

Can you tell me what you have heard about the government, the prime minister saying that now not even Gezi Park protesters are allowed to stay there?

What are they telling you about that?

Because last night the prime minister's chief aide said to me that there's a designated protest site, that is Gezi Park; today, we're hearing in the last, you know, hour or several minutes, that that is not going to be the case. They're going to try to clear that as well.

Is that something the prime minister said to you?

ATAMAN: No. I have not heard anything of that sort. And this may be their own private decision. As I said earlier, we are -- we are not able to discuss these things, negotiate these issues with government.

We do not have such powers. We can only concentrate on the future of the Gezi Park. We came here exactly talking about the park. And not really talking about the protest movement or anything of that sort.

AMANPOUR: Well --

ATAMAN: However, we offered our views on the immediacy of (inaudible) decision was -- has to be reached and that there is no more violence (inaudible) or anything like that (inaudible).

AMANPOUR: And what was the demeanor of the prime minister? He has dismissed most of these protests, calling them riffraff; he's called them terrorists and extremists.

What was his demeanor?

What did he say about this?

ATAMAN: He understands in the meeting that a lot of the people in this meeting were also themselves protesters, but they didn't come here representing the protesters. And he had a very long talk with them. He was very receptive. He was very understanding. He was very positive.

I personally felt that we were -- he was listening to us very carefully and it was obvious that he did not want this conflict to continue. However, I have to stress the fact that I absolutely had no idea of people -- what you asked me previously about, you know, this whole thing, about you know, what will happen in the park with (inaudible) protesters.

AMANPOUR: All right. Mr. Ataman, thank you very much indeed for joining me and giving us --

ATAMAN: (Inaudible), Christiane --

AMANPOUR: -- eyewitness update to what happened in that meeting with the prime minister.

And now we're going to go to CNN's senior international correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, who's been reporting, as you know, from Taksim Square around the clock, and he's joining me now again from Taksim Square.

Nick, demonstrators, we can see, are gathering again there.

What is the mood right now? Does it look tense?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, I'm inside Gezi Park, and the mood has soured slightly in the past couple of hours or so, partly due to (inaudible) what appears a child run off with somebody's mobile phone, calling it panic; another (inaudible) explosion (inaudible) towards the front.

People are concerned. They are tense, many wearing construction helmets, anticipating perhaps increasing police numbers we've seen near the square may somehow be menacing towards them.

It has otherwise been a quiet day in which the police activity yesterday cleared out the main commercial part of Taksim Square, allowing people to drive through and normal behavior (inaudible) again.

But you have to ask yourself many of the different groups don't -- Christiane?

AMANPOUR: I don't mean to interrupt you; I just want to clarify and maybe correct myself.

You are in Gezi Park, where there are protesters.

Are there protesters in Taksim Square?

WALSH: As far as I understand, yes, that's some distance away from me on the other side of a barricade.

Where we are, the protests have maintained for the past couple of days. But during the daytime, we saw no evidence of protest in Taksim Square itself. They have been a substantial effort by police and (inaudible) authorities to clear away the debris. They've (inaudible) the streets and it was normal traffic (inaudible), people walking back and forth.

Since I've been inside Gezi Park for the last couple of hours, there have been substantial numbers of people coming into here. The news of this possible referendum -- we're not quite clear, but it does appear from the state news agency and the (inaudible) speaking to that this has been suggested in Istanbul itself.

That's not widely known here, partly because of the lack of (inaudible) organization or communication between people here. And it surely will spread.

One man I've spoken to did sound initially suspicious at the idea, concerned perhaps the nature of the question or what duties where games might be played by Prime Minister Erdogan. But the broader problem, though, facing negotiations like this, is whether there is a unified idea behind protesters here, some here to conserve the park.

As you know, this protest has morphed and grown to encompass all sorts of different ideologies, much of which focus on dislike of the authoritarian rule from Mr. Erdogan, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: And are you hearing anything about the fate of the Gezi Park protest? You know, all day yesterday, we were being told -- and you heard the government's chief adviser tell me that Gezi Park was the designated protest site and the protesters' legitimate, as he said, would be allowed to stay there.

Are you hearing that this also is going to be cleared?

WALSH: That has not been something which has been explicitly laid out. But as you heard last night, the mayor -- the governor of Istanbul being quite clear that they would continue unremittingly the operations on Taksim Square itself was cleared.

Is this part of that idea? We're not sure. But certainly that idea makes no difference to the people around me here. They're not thinking about going anywhere; they're digging in. They're organized. We have electricity sources coming in here. I've seen human chains formed to take out trash and bring in supplies.

They're not going anywhere at all, but there is that sense of menace because, of course, the clock is certainly ticking since Prime Minister Erdogan said he wouldn't tolerate (inaudible) protesters, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Nick Paton Walsh, thank you very much indeed. And obviously we're going to keep a close eye on this situation.

And after a break, I'll have my exclusive interview with the prime minister of Egypt. Cairo's Tahrir Square has also seen dramatic demonstrations over the last several months. I'll ask Prime Minister Hesham Kandil his view on what's going on in Turkey. We'll be right back.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. Egypt is keeping a close eye on the unrest in Turkey as it gears up for major protests of its own set to take place in a few weeks, exactly one year after President Mohammed Morsi took office.

The country's stock sunk to a 10-month low today on concern of those upcoming protests and possible unrest. Prime Minister Hesham Kandil joined me from Cairo to talk about this time of turbulence and also momentous change in his country and the whole region.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Prime Minister Kandil, thank you so much for joining me.

HESHAM KANDIL, EGYPTIAN PRIME MINISTER: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: Let me get first to the situation in Turkey, which I imagine you're watching very closely.

Of course Prime Minister Erdogan is a great friend of your government. And when he came to Egypt, the welcome mat was put out for him.

You must be watching this with some alarm, these protests against him.

KANDIL: Well, we're watching it, but without alarm. We're watching it, you know, Turkey, I think, has a solid democracy.

And this is an internal affair. I know surely they can handle it within the boundaries and the rules and the role of democracy. Peaceful demonstrations everywhere in the world are welcomed, but there -- when there's violence, this is -- has to be treated to according to the rule of law.

AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you, because obviously it does tie in directly with a lot of what we've seen in Egypt over the past several months. And clearly what's being said loud and clear now is that the people of Egypt and, indeed, of Turkey, are saying that they want a government for all the people, not a government that seems to be for one particular side or one particular religion.

It seems that the secularists and the -- and the more religious want to be sure that the government is for all people. I know that's an issue in Egypt. What can you say to that?

KANDIL: Well, I say this is a very legitimate request. But what legitimate process to achieve one party's view, one's group's view is to wait for the election time and make sure that you get the proper vote so you can properly represent in the government.

We're not talking about years; we're talking about months. I think within three or four months, there will be a call for election in Egypt. So prepare yourself for the election.

And then the government -- make sure that the government represent -- then the people collect a proper number of votes so you can get properly represented in the new government.

But it doesn't work that by one group get the microphone and says we want to be there; another group gets another mike and they want to be, you know, in the driving seat. We don't -- we're not going to reinvent the wheel. The way to do that is election and the ballot box.

AMANPOUR: So to that point, what about what's coming up and what's planned inside Egypt for the next several days and several weeks?

There is the anniversary of the election of President Morsi coming up at the end of this month. And many protesters, people in the opposition, have said that they are going to hold huge protests.

And just now Islamist groups, including the Muslim Brotherhood, say they will hold a counter-demonstration several days earlier.

Is this going to get violent? How do you think this is going to proceed?

KANDIL: Well, I certainly hope that this is not going to get violent in all means. I mean, this is -- my biggest worry that to see people, you know, getting, fighting on the street or there is violence.

But again, peaceful demonstrations is the best way to express their views. And we are going to protect them and while they are expressing their views.

At the same time, we're going to protect the buildings and the governmental and official buildings and the private properties to ensure that nobody will intrude or will intervene in these peaceful demonstrations and try to change the scene to a violent one.

AMANPOUR: You know, people's expectations, as you say, were very high. In the last year, you know, the economy has done very badly; tourism has done very badly. You've been badly knocked. You need this IMF loan, and now you're saying that the IMF is basically to blame for not giving it.

Tell me what's happening and why you're not getting it yet.

KANDIL: OK. First of all, let me correct you about this tourism industry.

The tourism industry in some areas are not doing poor -- are doing poorly, but in other areas are doing very well. So overall, statistics of the country for the first quarter of this year 2014 (sic), we're doing a similar numbers and in terms of revenue of the tourists, similar to 2010 prior to the revolution.

So in terms of the tourists, we're not doing terribly bad. We're doing good in areas. But in some areas are doing bad, like in Cairo for instance, for very obvious reasons.

However, we have done other good things as well.

So let me give you an example. Just last month, we poured in the pockets of the Egyptian farmers around 9 billion Egyptian pounds for collecting the wheat crop of this season.

So we're doing a lot of activities. I'm not going to call it achievements. But considering the challenges that facing Egypt, consider the circumstances of the transitional zone, compare it to what's happening in the neighboring countries, considering the challenges, I think we are doing reasonably well.

The IMF, we -- I think we're still very close to getting a deal. The only point that we disagree with the IMF is not the intervention, is not the measures we are taking. It's about the timing.

And I tell you, and I tell everybody that we are keen, are very serious about reforming our economy.

And we have taken very courageous steps -- you know, I'm not sure we have the time to tell you what those steps are, but we have taken courageous and serious steps in reforming the economy and handling the subsidies, things that have not been dealt with, within the last 50 years.

Needless to say that we're dealing with this under -- in a prior election transitional period after the revolution.

AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you this, because obviously one of your biggest benefactors is the United States, more than $1 billion comes to Egypt every year.

And the U.S. has now expressed deep dissatisfaction with the law that was recently passed against NGOs, non-governmental organizations, democracy-building organizations.

Let me quote you what the secretary of state said. He said it's incompatible what you've done with the transition to democracy. The White House says that it undermines the protection of human rights and more importantly, Senator Leahy says that "If Egypt continues on this repressive path, it will be increasingly difficult for the U.S. to support Morsi's government."

And of course they are upset that 16 Americans have been sentenced under this law.

I mean, how is that even possible, Mr. Prime Minister?

KANDIL: No, no, I guess really we're lacking -- we're not communicating here.

First of all, there was a law, an NGO law, under the previous repressive regime. And those guys were taken to court, you know, in 2011, prior to the election of President Morsi, and around the nine to eight months before me assuming this position. This law is in the process of being changed. I'm not -- you know, we have to change it. We are very much committed to our international obligations. We want to have NGOs; we want to have civil society that's empowered, that can -- that can work in hand in hand with the government and so we can build this country. It's part of a democracy. We want to do that. And we're keen to do that.

We put a law to the Shura Council, which it now has legislative power, to discuss this law, which enables NGOs to get funding from Egypt or from abroad and to be able to get registered with notification. So they just notify the government that they form an NGO.

See, this is completely different from the previous law that those guys are suffering from.

So I guess the next logical question that maybe you want to ask, what those guys should do now.

I mean, the government cannot intervene. The government is not able to intervene. It's not in our power to intervene in the judiciary system.

But they can go -- I guess their attorneys can -- would be in a better position to advise them on what to do. They can appeal. They can wait for the new law to be passed, which it should be happening within the coming weeks and appeal for it.

So there are other legal things and routes they can resort to, to challenge this or to appeal for the second level of the court. AMANPOUR: Prime Minister Hashem Kandil, thank you so much for joining me.

KANDIL: Thank you very much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And on our website, amanpour.com, you can hear what the prime minister has to say about Ethiopia's plan to build a massive dam over the River Nile. As the driest country in the world, it would be a major threat to Egypt if, as the prime minister tells me, even one cup of water was lost to Egypt.

That's all at amanpour.com.

And after a break, we'll turn to South Africa as that nation and the world hold vigil for Nelson Mandela. We recall a time when the stone walls and the iron bars of his prison couldn't stop his message from bringing down the evil of apartheid, words that will live forever, when we come back.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine the whole world saying prayers for one man, 94-year-old Nelson Mandela remains under intensive care. He's responding better to treatment; that's according to South Africa's president, Jacob Zuma.

But it is the third time in six months that this living legend has been hospitalized with a lung infection.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): The nation and the world continue their vigil, unwilling to let go of this beloved man, this towering moral beacon and political leader. The origins of his infection date back exactly 49 years ago, when Mandela was sentenced to life imprisonment on Robben Island, a place that he revisited as a free man and as president.

Back then, though, he was condemning to breaking rocks and breathing fetid air in a quarry on the island. But hard labor only stiffened his resolve and at great risk to himself as well as to fellow prisoners and friends, he smuggled out letters and other writings that would fuel the fire of the anti-apartheid movement.

One such message took two long years to reach his party, the African National Congress. And 33 years ago this week, the ANC published its clarion call to disenfranchise South Africa.

"Unite! Mobilize! Fight on! Between the anvil of united mass action and the hammer of the armed struggle, we shall crush apartheid."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And with those undying words, Nelson Mandela, bad lungs and all, breathed life into a Rainbow Nation, a nation that now holds its breath for him.

And that's it for tonight's program. Meantime, you can always contact us on our website, amanpour.com. Thanks for watching and goodbye from New York.

END