Return to Transcripts main page

Amanpour

Royal Baby Fever Rising By The Minute; Egypt Still Bitterly Divided Even After Morsy's Removal

Aired July 15, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour, reporting tonight from outside Buckingham Palace, where royal baby fever is rising by the minute and the world's media has descended to catch the first bulletins of the birth.

It'll be announced the old-fashioned way: a printed notice will be placed on an easel in the front grounds of the palace and behind the gates that you can see now, everyone will be able to come and read it.

In a moment, my conversation with Margaret Rhodes. She is Queen Elizabeth's first cousin and a lifelong confidante. We spoke in the very room where she and the Queen shared an aperitif after attending church yesterday morning.

But first, we turn to Egypt, still bitterly divided almost two weeks after the military removed the former president, Mohammed Morsy, from office.

Armored personnel carriers are still on the street guarding the presidential palace and other sensitive sites. Egypt's interim government has ordered the arrest of seven Muslim Brotherhood leaders, including one of my guests tonight, Essam el-Erian, who is the deputy head of the Muslim Brotherhood's political wing.

Egypt's judges have frozen the assets of a number of the Brotherhood's officials and a lawyer for the group claims that dozens more members are still detained.

As for the former president, his whereabouts remain unknown. The United States and Europe are calling on the military to let Morsy go. A State Department spokesman says that detaining him is not in keeping with the national reconciliation the interim government says it wants.

William Burns, who's the deputy U.S. secretary of state in Cairo right now, meeting with the interim president, Adly Mansour, and at a press conference he called this time a rare opportunity for Egypt to get its democracy right.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BURNS, U.S. DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: This is a moment of both considerable challenges and significant promise for Egyptians. It's a moment when Egyptians have a second chance to put their post-revolutionary transition on a successful path.

Second chances are rare and the life of any country; rarer still are leaders and people who have the wisdom and courage to take full advantage of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: We turn now to Essam el-Erian, the deputy leader of the Freedom and Justice Party, whose arrest has been ordered by Egypt's public prosecutor. Clearly, he's unable to come to our studio in Cairo, so he joins me from there now by phone.

Mr. el-Erian, thank you for being with me.

Can I ask you first, are you in danger of being arrested?

How come you're still at large?

ESSAM EL-ERIAN, DEPUTY LEADER, FREEDOM AND JUSTICE PARTY: Thank you, Christiane. It is not my (inaudible) or the leaders who are wanted to be elected. It is the country which is now (inaudible) in everything, in safety, in stability, in the economy and this country is the main concern we have now.

We need to restore our independence, our democracy to build our institutions and get the constitution safe. It is not (inaudible) but the safety of the president is very important for everybody because he is the symbol of the country.

And we don't know till now where is the president, what about his health or what about his health and safety and many rumors and allegations (inaudible) in the social media about something (inaudible) with him (inaudible). This is a danger now which is a distraction (ph) of the new bold democracy not (inaudible) but in the old Arab and the Islamic (inaudible).

AMANPOUR: Mr. el-Erian, Mr. el-Erian, what do you make of Secretary Burns' visit to Cairo in which he said this is a chance for the democracy to get back on track now and obviously all political parties need to be part of it, including the Muslim Brotherhood?

EL-ERIAN: I cannot imagine if (inaudible) agrees that somebody in Egypt trusts them. This is the most important thing now. Nobody (inaudible) Mr. Obama or Mr. Burns because they said the same words. And because the Arabs and the Muslims can build democracy in two addresses, one in Istanbul (ph) and the other was in Cairo.

But this was something like public relations, because when we come to the exam, (inaudible) exam, we built our (inaudible). And all institutions that government (inaudible), the second upper parliament (ph) (inaudible) chamber is evolving (ph). And the constitution is (inaudible). And to elect a president is unrelated. So how can we trust Mr. Burns?

AMANPOUR: Well, what then is your next move? What will the Muslim Brotherhood do? Are you going to contest the political system? Are you going to get back into political activity? Or are you going to revert back to what you were before the revolution, before you even contested the presidential elections?

EL-ERIAN: All our history is (inaudible). We are an organization working under the (inaudible) of the constitution and (inaudible) -- we are not outlawed at all. We work peacefully to restore the democratic (inaudible).

We need restore the country from (inaudible) general rule committed the militant coup. That is a militant coup, obviously, declared in that it was not of the (inaudible). And declared by the minister of defense himself.

AMANPOUR: But what is your next move?

EL-ERIAN: That's what happened in Cairo, it's a military coup.

AMANPOUR: What is your next move?

EL-ERIAN: We are continuing our revolutionary (inaudible), demonstration all over the country, not (inaudible) in the streets from Alex (ph) to Aswan and in Cairo it was a paralyzed traffic. Now we have many demonstrations in many sites in Cairo.

This might also (inaudible) destabilized. We are going to continue peaceful demonstrations, trying to restore the country from those general, this military general who committed and massacred, killing more than 10 and 100 persons during (inaudible) in the front of the (inaudible) one week ago.

So that is where not only a military coup but it is a bloody one. It is -- they committed (inaudible). They must be (inaudible) to judgment in front of --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Mr. el-Erian?

EL-ERIAN: (Inaudible) is the matter now in Egypt.

AMANPOUR: Essam el-Erian, thank you very much indeed for joining me from Cairo.

And at this point, I need to say that all day we've asked members of Egypt's interim government at all levels to talk to us. They have told us that the time is not right yet. We still await their participation on our program.

In the meantime, as I said, the deputy secretary of state William Burns did meet with Egypt's interim leaders today, but both the Islamist al-Nour Party and the anti-Morsy movement Tamarod say they turned down invitations to meet him. The Muslim Brotherhood of course also said it had no plans to meet with William Burns.

But crisis in Egypt poses a major challenge to the Obama administration and Frank Wisner is a career diplomat, a long-time observer and participant in that region, a former ambassador to Egypt and President Obama even dispatched him to Cairo at the height of the 2011 revolution. He met personally back then with Hosni Mubarak.

Frank Wisner, thank you so much indeed for joining me.

Just tell me, what do you make of William Burns stepping into this volatile political situation right now? He's clearly mistrusted, it seems, by both sides, if the Tamarod, the rebel movement didn't meet with him, al-Nour, the Islamists didn't meet. And the Brotherhood says they're going nowhere near him.

What can the U.S. do right now?

FRANK WISNER, FORMER U.S. ENVOY TO EGYPT: Well, I thought the decision of Mr. Burns to go to Cairo obviously approved at the highest levels of the administration, was a brave and very smart move because Egypt is, after all, a critical part of our presence in the region. Our relationship with Egypt is one of the pillars of American policy.

We need to be able to deal with the new dispensation in Egypt, to be able to open up lines of communications. And that's exactly what I heard Bill Burns doing, in addition to laying down markers about where we, as Americans, hope to be able to see it evolve in the future.

AMANPOUR: So what would you be telling either the coalition, which opposed President Morsy, and indeed the Brotherhood? You heard from my interview with Essam el-Erian a massive amount of anger still; they still have people on the streets and they continue to say they will protest until Morsy comes back.

What is your message to all sides right now?

WISNER: Well, I think there are lots of messages, but I'm certainly not a message-maker or a giver. My own analysis of what's happening is that the new government in Egypt has been brought to power on the backs of massive outpouring of popular sentiment.

The military carried it off, provides a framework. The job now and where I think all Americans ought to be is to encourage this government to organize itself. I hear by Wednesday there will be a very able new cabinet in place.

And then to move on with the road map, move to get new elections, to make certain that Egypt lives by the toughest dictates of Egyptian law as they reestablish law and order to invite all parties to come in and turn to the nettlesome question of the economy.

AMANPOUR: Well, what about, though, what -- this appears to be a rather ambitious schedule. Obviously everybody wants to return to civilian democratic rule. The caretaker foreign minister told me last week that there would be a 7-month timetable for rewriting the constitution, having parliamentary elections and then presidential elections.

Is that too ambitious or not ambitious enough?

What is your view on that?

WISNER: Well, they've picked a 7-month or 6-7 month deadline and obviously they'll have to try to meet it. I think it's an adventuresome goal. But it's not impossible. Much of the constitution's already been written; Egypt has a very sophisticated election machinery. Egypt can put on an election.

But what has to happen first is a new consensus. Parties come together and actually contest in a political way the selection. That remains to be seen, that law and order has to be reinstated and, indeed, the third great challenge is getting a minimum degree of stability in the economy.

AMANPOUR: So very briefly -- we've got 10 seconds -- your judgment: will this become a normal political process?

Or do you think the Muslim Brotherhood is going to stay on the outside and who knows what might happen?

WISNER: I can't predict what the Muslim Brothers will do. I know they're being called upon to join. But it is an opportunity for Egypt to bind up its wounds, to come together and set a new course, a second chance, one worth achieving and there's a chance Egypt can do it.

AMANPOUR: Frank Wisner, thank you so much for joining me.

And democracy, as we have seen, can be a very messy business. Here in Britain, it's worth remembering, Winston Churchill's famous dictum, that democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others that have been tried.

So let's turn perhaps to the romance and tradition of kings and queens now and their royal offspring. After a break, we'll do just that, as we pay a call on the Queen's cousin and close friend at her cottage at Windsor Castle while the rest of the world waits breathless for the royal baby. This warm and frank woman puts things in some perspective.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Are you excited about the baby?

MARGARET RHODES, QUEEN ELIZABETH'S FIRST COUSIN: Not terribly.

(LAUGHTER)

AMANPOUR: Why not?

RHODES: Well, you know, everybody has babies. And it's lovely. But I don't get wildly excited about it.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: And there's more of that common sense and uncommon stories of a royal friendship, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program, where we are live outside Buckingham Palace tonight. And of course, it is all about the royal baby here in London, a barely contained media frenzy is in full swing. Journalists from here and around the globe camped outside St. Mary's Hospital with ladders and cameras in place to capture any glimpse they can.

The baby will be third in line to the throne. But it'll be the first heir born in the era of 24-hour news, Facebook and Twitter as the whole world watches.

This morning I sat down with Margaret Rhodes, Queen Elizabeth's first cousin and her long-time friend. She has perhaps an unparalleled insight into the royal family. Born just a few months apart, she and the Queen were constant companions and playmates as little girls.

Rhodes was a bridesmaid at her marriage to Prince Philip and they see each other frequently. Just yesterday Rhodes hosted the Queen as she often does on Sundays for a drink after church.

Here at her home in the Parklands of Windsor Castle which, in fact, the Queen gave her as a gift three decades ago, and that's where I met Rhodes this morning for a frank and funny conversation about the latest royal hoopla.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Margaret Rhodes, welcome to the program.

RHODES: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: What went through your mind when suddenly your mother's sister became the Queen of England, the Duke -- the Duchess of York became the Queen of England when George VI became king?

RHODES: I can remember to this day that I shamingly hopped around the dance floor, saying, "My uncle's now king," which was a very shaming thing to do, but I did it.

AMANPOUR: As we sit here, the whole world is waiting for the birth of --

(CROSSTALK)

RHODES: Sister Kate (ph) --

AMANPOUR: -- and William's child, anticipating.

Are you excited about the baby?

RHODES: Not terribly.

(LAUGHTER)

AMANPOUR: Why not?

RHODES: Well, you know, everybody has babies. And it's lovely. But I don't get wildly excited about it.

AMANPOUR: Heir to the throne?

RHODES: I know, but --

AMANPOUR: History?

RHODES: Yes. All right. I'm prepared to be excited.

(LAUGHTER) AMANPOUR: What life is that baby going to have?

RHODES: Oh, well, I imagine and hope that its early life, it's -- at least in its teens, will be just a jolly, happy, ordinary child's life.

AMANPOUR: Do you think that's possible in the royal family?

RHODES: Well, they managed it with Princess Elizabeth and Princess Margaret.

AMANPOUR: That's the current queen.

RHODES: The current queen and her sister, sadly dead. I mean, the king and queen in those days made an enormous effort to give -- to keep their childhood sort of sacrosanct. I mean, it was just a time for learning and enjoying. And I think that they have succeeded awfully well.

AMANPOUR: You have said, talking about childhood, you have said that you feel the Queen got a bit of a bad rap after Princess Diana died and she did not come to London immediately and meet the outpouring of grief.

And you said that was because she was being a good granny, a good grandmother. Tell me what you meant by that.

RHODES: Well, I think it was an eminently sensible decision personally because what was the point -- we've got two grieving children with you --

AMANPOUR: William and Harry.

RHODES: -- William and Harry, whose mother's just died unexpectedly. And to go to London and sit in Buckingham Palace with nothing to do, nothing to do except sit and think about your mother or look out of the window at the crowds, I mean, what help was that for the boys?

AMANPOUR: Did the Queen ever talk to you about the aftermath?

RHODES: No. No. And I've never talked to her about it. I mean there are some things that one sort of keeps off, really.

AMANPOUR: Do you see her regularly?

RHODES: Well, I'm lucky enough, now that I'm here in this house, which I've been in now for 32 years, because she comes to the little chapel in the park that I go to most Sundays.

And so like yesterday, she was here, having a drink.

AMANPOUR: Yesterday? Right where we are?

RHODES: Yes.

AMANPOUR: She was seen having a drink with you?

RHODES: Yes.

AMANPOUR: That's nice.

RHODES: So she quite often does. She comes in after prayers for half an hour's (inaudible) and just has a nice little drink and a chat. AMANPOUR: Princess Diana was a huge figure. How do you think Kate measures up?

RHODES: Well, it's obviously impossible to tell, really. But what -- I've only seen a very little bit of her. But what I have seen, I think that she -- I think that she's doing very, very well.

I mean, I think that's she's done the jobs that have been given to her to do beautifully.

And I mean, I just -- I think she's got a way with her that's going to be very appealing. And I think that she won't sort of vie for coverage with - - which Diana perhaps did a little bit.

AMANPOUR: Tell me a little bit about Prince Philip, because you were around when a very young Princess Elizabeth -- I think she was 13 years old -- first met him. And he was 17.

Were there sparks? What went on?

RHODES: I think that in the way 13-year olds do, she fell in love with a very, very handsome young man.

AMANPOUR: And he was a Greek prince.

RHODES: Yes. Sort of a rather cosmopolitan kind of Greek prince.

AMANPOUR: And you described him as Viking god-like good looking.

RHODES: Yes. He was incredibly good-looking.

He's condemned nowadays largely for making what they call gaffes and actually what it is, is saying what he thinks most of the time. And it's rather -- it's rather -- I feel like it's a naval officer --

AMANPOUR: He's good old-fashioned politically incorrect --

RHODES: Yes, yes.

AMANPOUR: What do you think it was like for him? Because he could have had a naval career. He was going to go into the navy.

What did he have to give up to be the consort?

RHODES: Well, I think that he had to give up a lot, which was -- made it very difficult for a man to be second fiddle. You know, he's carved out a career for himself, which there was no real muddle for whatsoever.

I mean it was totally different, the Prince Consort today. And he -- I mean, he has a very, very busy life, the things that he does.

AMANPOUR: What does he feel about having to walk a few steps behind his wife?

RHODES: Well, I've never asked him. I imagine not something one would relish, say, do you like -- no, but I supposed -- it's the same, in a way, for both of them. I mean, the Queen has had to accept that she gives up the whole of her private life in being Queen. She no longer can do what you and I can do and say, oh, look, it's a lovely day; let's go and have a picnic in the summer.

Her day, her months, her weeks are all laid out, organized six months ahead. So you give up an immense amount of freedom.

AMANPOUR: Do you think Kate has to give up that kind of freedom?

RHODES: Yes. I think if you -- well, especially, I mean, especially Kate. I mean, that ultimately she's going to be Queen and you know, the role takes over.

AMANPOUR: People who grew up in England, I suppose, knew the story of King George VI and Queen Elizabeth, your aunt. A lot of people were unaware of the personal travails of King George VI, his stammering, his health.

And when the film, "The King's Speech," came out, it was a blockbuster all over the world.

You knew him and you saw the film.

Was it a real -- ?

(CROSSTALK)

RHODES: I mean, I cried in the film. I mean, it was so well done. And I think it did show the difficulties he surmounted.

And there was one moment where he was making the king say a whole lot of frightfully rude words.

AMANPOUR: Swear words.

RHODES: Yes, in his sort of barrage. And I did say something to the Queen about that, and she said she'd never heard her father use bad language at all.

So whether that was true or not, I don't know.

AMANPOUR: Margaret Rhodes, thank you so much for joining me.

RHODES: Not at all. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And we'll have more of our conversation a little later in the week. And after a break, another royal birth nearly 500 years ago that had the whole world waiting on diaper pins and needles: imagine the unwanted baby girl who still inspires films and popular culture, who became the heart and soul of England's Golden Age. That's when we come back.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where another royal birth, even more anticipated than this one, led to the mother's execution, years of religious horror (ph), but ultimately to England's Golden Age.

When Queen Anne Boleyn went into labor back in 1533, King Henry VIII and the rest of his kingdom held their collective breath, willing a son and heir into the world. Henry had divorced his first wife for failing in that department, a divorce which led to England's breakaway from the Catholic Church. But now Anne had failed, too, for she also bore Henry a daughter. And her days were numbered. Several miscarriages later, she was beheaded. And Henry would marry four more times and even have that long-awaited son. He became King Edward VI. But he died when he was only 15.

So after more years of turmoil, Anne Boleyn's daughter was indeed eventually crowned Queen of England and that unwanted baby girl now a confident young woman went on to rule for nearly half a century, raising her kingdom to unparalleled heights of power, prosperity and prestige. Her name was Elizabeth and her story lives on in popular culture, the subject of bestselling books and Oscar-winning film. And best of all, her descendant and namesake, Queen Elizabeth II, who waits expectedly in Buckingham Palace behind me, abolished the law that caused Henry and his wives all that pain and horror. Now the heir to throne is the firstborn, male or female.

And that's it for tonight's program. Meantime, you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.

END