Return to Transcripts main page

Amanpour

Treatment of Women in Afghanistan Examined; Syria's Conflict Continues Taking a Heavy Toll on the Country

Aired July 16, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour. Live tonight, outside Buckingham Palace, and coming up the very public tale of happy families here, the expectant royal family, to be precise. And it dramatically contrasts with the increasingly abandoned modern-day tragedy that is wracking Syria, its children and its people.

But first, speaking of abandonment, as the U.S. openly discusses a so- called zero option for Afghanistan, in other words, leaving it with no international defense forces after the planned withdrawal next year, the war against Afghan women is escalating.

Take a look at Sahar Gul. She was forced into marriage to an older man at the age of 12. She ended up in the hospital -- she's shown here after police rescued her from a seller in her husband's home. She had been kept prisoner. She had been starved and tortured. Her fingernails had been torn out. Her injuries were so severe that she almost died.

Three members of her husband's family were convicted of attempted murder. But last week, a Supreme Court judge released them from jail, barely a year into their 10-year sentence. And a victim's legal recourse is under threat now with the Afghan parliament considering legislation that would limit eyewitness testimony in rape and other domestic abuse cases.

And it gets worse. Women's rights and gains were a hallmark of the international intervention in Afghanistan. A decade of investment and real progress are now being set back as we speak. Later this week, the U.S. plans to announce a major effort to protect those rights.

But who will guarantee them once U.S. troops and other forces are gone? My next guest, Fawzia Koofi, knows first-hand the struggles that women face in Afghanistan. When she was just a newborn, her parents left her outside in the baking sun. They were torn about whether to keep her because she was a girl. They had a change of heart and she grew up to become a member of the Afghan parliament.

And I spoke to her about what's going on right now just moments ago from Kabul.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program.

FAWZIA KOOFI, AFGHAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: As a member of parliament, how concerned are you that the authorities, people in Afghanistan, are trying to reduce the number of seats that elected women can hold?

KOOFI: Well, there -- there was an attempt, unfortunately, to remove the coda (ph) for 25 women -- 25 persons, women's participation at the provincial, district and village level, or village councils, by the lower house or the house that I represent without even letting their plenary know about it.

And then, after a lot of efforts, we managed to bring it back. But only 20 percent at the provincial level.

It indicates the fact that some politicians are really inside the parliament, outside the parliament, they are preparing themselves for a new situation through 2014 and perhaps to welcome Taliban and the abuse, in terms of women's rights in Afghanistan.

AMANPOUR: Fawzia, it's not just quotas that are at stake in terms of elected and appointed politics.

It's also the criminal law is being gradually chipped away, the law that was put there to protect women from violence.

Tell me exactly how that is affecting women right now. What kind of crimes are we seeing that are going unprosecuted?

KOOFI: Well, the law environment against women, which was enforced as a presidential decree in 2009, and it needed to be passed by parliament in order to make it a national document. And when it becomes a -- when it's approved by the parliament, it will not be politically based or politically, you know, kind of placed by any upcoming president.

So in order to make it a more sustainable law, we presented to the parliament to approve it by the parliament. It's a law that stops forced and early marriages. It's a law that gives somehow punishment for those who marry second, third or fourth wives without implementing sharia, without bringing justice, without giving equal rights for all wives.

It's a law that gave punishment for those who are raping or sexually exploiting women.

It was not approved by parliament, unfortunately. There were some extreme figures in the parliament that labeled this law different kinds of labels.

And there was a silence by the political leaders and the -- including the palace, no voice of support for this law. That is an indication of how women's rights are in decline and how difficult it is for not only women, but also for the activists to take the cases of women forward.

AMANPOUR: I mean it is incredible to be sitting here and talking about Afghanistan going backwards after all the progress that was made 10, 12 years ago.

How afraid are you right now for the -- all the hard-won rights that you all have fought for?

KOOFI: It's one of the main concerns that not only women in Afghanistan have, but our allies, our brothers who are supporting us in many occasions. The concern we have is not only women's rights, because women's rights is so much connected to other democracy elements.

Women's rights in Afghanistan means freedom of speech, means people are allowed to go and say what they want to say. It means freedom of media.

So it means the whole democratic participation and process. And if that is being affected, then the bigger message is there is -- the democracy in Afghanistan is also at risk and endangered.

We have seen evidence that women have been -- have not been included in the peace process not by number. I mean quantity-wise, yes, women are represented (ph) in the peace process. But their issues, as well, the issues that women are concerned.

And in our history, in our recent history, we have seen that women's issues have been easily compromised. Women's rights have been easily politically compromised.

Therefore, I think it's important for any government to make sure that 55 percent of the society is part of any processes. Without that, I think peace or any progress will not be long lasting and sustainable.

AMANPOUR: So what do you think the U.S. should do, for instance?

The head of USAID is announcing a major initiative to support Afghan women.

What should the United States and other international partners do?

KOOFI: The international community needs to keep their commitment and focus on women's rights. We see, also, there is a backward steps by the international community as well, issues that the international community -- that was our partner six or seven years ago, now, when we knock their door and then we go to ask their support, they say, well, this is an Afghan domestic politics.

I think if it was a domestic politics, then why international community invested blood and treasure six or seven years ago?

I think that the women's economic empowerment is the key for political independency.

AMANPOUR: And lastly, are you still running for president?

You told me last time we talked that you would.

KOOFI: I'm still thinking, because if I don't, then automatically, we gave it the atmosphere for those who would like to take Afghanistan back to where we have to start from scratch.

AMANPOUR: Fawzia Koofi, thank you so much for joining me.

KOOFI: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And now I want to turn to Heather Barr, who joins me right now. She's a senior researcher on Afghanistan for Human Rights Watch. She spent the last six years in Kabul but is here temporarily. And Human Rights Watch has come out with a major statement on what's going on.

What is it that you think needs to be changed?

What's the greatest risk right now?

HEATHER BARR, SENIOR RESEARCHER, HRW: Well, I think we're seeing a whole constellation of different danger signs that have come together in the last two months. And you've mentioned several of them in your report.

There are several others that have really indicated that there's a rollback on women's rights happening in Afghanistan that's starting now. It's not starting after the troops have gone at the end of 2014. It's starting right now.

AMANPOUR: And why?

BARR: Well, I think that there are people in Afghan society who are opposed to the progress that women have made. And they're seeing an opportunity created by a void that's being left by the international community as the international community runs for the exits.

AMANPOUR: And some of these laws, the funny name EVA (ph), the law against violence against women, yes, and the quotas in parliament, is this actually part of the democratic process? Is this parliament deciding all this? Or is this coming from higher (ph)?

BARR: Well, it's a mix of different things. I mean, the sort of different danger signs I'm talking about, some have been from the court. You mentioned the Sahar Gul case. The amendment that seems to have been made to the criminal procedure code, that seems to have actually come from the executive branch of government.

And then we have the parliament, both some parliamentarians calling for a repeal of this law and elimination of violence against women that Fawzia Koofi talked about. And then this issue about the set-aside of seats from provincial councils. So these attacks are really coming from all different directions within the Afghan government.

AMANPOUR: You know what's extraordinary, when people like yourself used to say the international forces are running for the exits. Well, U.S., Britain, the others would say no, we're not. We're leaving a residual force. But now they're even talking about zero residual force after 2014.

What hope is there for Afghan women and the men who are their partners in this progress that's been made?

BARR: Well, I think there's a very strong feeling in Kabul these days that the U.S. has stopped caring about what Afghanistan looks like in 2015 or in 2020, that they've had enough; they're tired of it. It's been a bit of a fiasco militarily. Everyone's sick of dealing with Karzai and they've had enough of the country.

But unfortunately, that punishes women for frustrations that they have with the Afghan military, with the Afghan president.

AMANPOUR: So what is your suggestion? Human Rights Watch came out with a bunch of suggestions as to what the international response should be right now.

BARR: Well, frustrated as the U.S. is, the U.S. has made a 10-year commitment to funding the Afghan army and the Afghan police force. And one of the messages we've been trying to get across to the U.S. government is that there needs to be a similar commitment to women's rights.

There needs to be a 10-year commitment to funding the schools and clinics and hospitals and shelters and legal services that are really forming the foundation of a lot of work that's happening on women's rights.

And there needs to be 10 years' worth of political pressure and scrutiny on the Afghan government so that the type of things that we've seen over the last two months aren't just the beginning of a whole wave of rollback.

AMANPOUR: And if that commitment was made -- let's hear what Rajiv Shah of USAID has to say on Thursday or later this week -- if that commitment is made, can that help protect these gains? Or do you feel that once there is no international oversight, things are just going to be bad?

BARR: No, it can sustain that. I mean, international oversight doesn't require that you have soldiers on the ground. It's about -- it's about paying attention and staying involved.

And as long as the international community is paying for President Karzai's army and President Karzai's police force, the international community has leverage. They just need to focus that leverage on women's rights ,which they have not done sufficiently so far.

AMANPOUR: And of course the Karzai government can be, you know, a little bit odd on all of this as well. They just went before a special U.N. panel to say that they're doing well on the convention to protect women. Tell me about that.

BARR: Well, it was interesting. It was a very frustrating thing t watch. I mean, I think it's really powerful but these types of mechanisms exist where a government is called to account for itself about how it's dealing with enforcing a convention.

Unfortunately, a lot of what the government delegation said was vague, was misleading, was sort of dodging the question. But I hope they've gone home with a message that the international community is watching closely.

AMANPOUR: And people like Fawzia Koofi, of course, and there are legions like her, are really strong, really committed. They're not just going to lie down and take it.

BARR: No, that's absolutely right. I mean the changes that have happened for women over the last 12 years in Afghanistan didn't happen because of international intervention. They happened because of Afghan women and men who support them. And the international intervention just created some space and provided some financial resources to support that.

But they need that continued support to continue the work.

AMANPOUR: Heather Barr, Human Rights Watch, thank you very much for joining me.

And the threat to women's rights doesn't stop at the Afghan border as we know. Last week at the United Nations in New York, the remarkable Pakistani teenager, Malala Yousafzai, who survived the Taliban's bullets, stood before a special youth assembly and there, in words that inspired the world, she sounded a call for the education of girls and boys everywhere.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MALALA YOUSAFZAI, EDUCATION ACTIVIST: So let us wage a glorious struggle against illiteracy, poverty and terrorism, let us pick up -- let us pick up our books and our pens, they are our most powerful weapons. One child, one teacher, one book and one pen can change the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: An extraordinary young woman, she's from Pakistan; there are many in Afghanistan and they won't give up easily. And after a break, we'll turn to Syria, where according to the U.N.'s refugee chief, a humanitarian crisis worse than what happened in Rwanda 20 years ago may soon engulf the entire region.

And yet the most powerful countries on Earth seem powerless to stop it. That's when we come back.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. I'm reporting live this week from outside Buckingham Palace.

But a new report from the United Nations documents the catastrophic human toll of the fighting in Syria and the numbers are staggering. Almost 5,000 people, they say, are being killed every month now and that more than 6,000 people fleeing the country every day, almost 2 million refugees have amassed in total so far.

It is the worst flight of refugees since the Rwandan genocide, according to the U.N., and that was almost 20 years ago. The U.N. says it's an explosion that could soon engulf the entire Middle East. Western leaders recognize the high stakes in Syria because here's British Prime Minister David Cameron speaking to an E.U. summit a few months ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CAMERON, PRIME MINISTER, GREAT BRITAIN: I think in fact we're more likely to see political progress if actually people can see that the Syrian opposition, which we have now recognized, that we are working with, is a credible and strengthening and growing force.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So that was in March and the British government and the French government lobbied very hard to have the E.U. lift its arms embargo on Syria. But there's very little happening now to provide the strength that Syrian opposition so desperately needs, even as the momentum in the fighting shifts to Assad's forces and his Hezbollah allies.

Prime Minister Cameron himself has just ruled out arming the opposition for now. And American efforts to arm and train rebel fighters, the game-changer that was promised by President Obama, after he confirmed that chemical weapons were, indeed, used by Assad forces, have been so limited that they are almost meaningless, according to those Syrian opposition forces.

Now Roula Khalaf is Middle East editor for the "Financial Times." She's a close observer of that Arab revolutions and their aftermath, and she's joining me right now from Beirut.

Welcome to the program, Roula. Let me start by asking you, there you are in Lebanon; and the U.N. refugee head has said that there could be a major explosion in the region.

What are you feeling right now from Beirut in this regard?

ROULA KHALAF, MIDDLE EAST EDITOR, "FINANCIAL TIMES": Well, I think the numbers don't even tell the whole story. In Lebanon, for example, a lot of refugees are not registered. And there are a lot of figures that suggest that there are double the numbers and that this is a -- this is a small country of 4 million people and by some estimates, there are as many as 1 million Syrians in Lebanon right now.

I think for both Lebanon and for Jordan, two countries that are quite vulnerable, more vulnerable than Turkey, this is a huge burden. But particularly, I mean, not just for the refugees, but because it creates political problems.

In Lebanon for instance, this -- we have a society that's divided between people who support the rebels and people who support the Syrian regime. And the presence of so many Syrians here in such destitute circumstances creates a lot of internal tension as well.

And this is what --- this is the kind of threat that people talk about, about the destabilization that goes beyond Syria and that does not remain in Syria's borders. We are starting to feel it much across the region.

There's also a backlash that one starts to feel now against Syrian refugees. You even saw it in Egypt, where they were accused of demonstrating along with the Muslim Brotherhood over the past week.

People in Jordan and in some places in Lebanon are starting to talk about how Syrians are -- provide cheaper labor and are taking some of their -- some of the very few jobs that are available in this country.

AMANPOUR: So are you surprised -- and you've been looking at this and writing about this for so long. Are you surprised that now the British government is saying that they won't be providing arms for the moment.

What impact is that going to have?

KHALAF: I'm not surprised because there's been a debate that's been ongoing now in Britain for several months. I think the government and the prime minister had in mind to provide some limited, I think, supplies of weapons. But there's been a lot of resistance in parliament. And within the security and the military establishment in London. And I think they've had to -- the government has had to retract.

Now the impact is, of course, will be felt in Syria because it's not only the U.K. that's not doing as much as it would like to do, but what a lot of people were expecting from the U.S. doesn't seem to be forthcoming. We now understand more and more that we're talking here about if they do get there, supplies of small weapons when what they need are more sophisticated weapons.

So I think the situation is looking more and more dire by the day. The regime is making gains on the ground. The whole idea that you make a political solution much more achievable if you alter the balance of power on the ground, we're not seeing that. We're seeing in fact the balance of power being altered in favor of the regime rather than in favor of the rebels.

AMANPOUR: And not only that, of course, we have seen and we've been watching the Assad regime really rubbing their hands in glee over what's unfolding in Egypt, with the protests and the removal of the democratically elected president.

Now today you've seen that the head of the army has been sworn in as one of the leaders of the interim government.

How is that affecting the entire Arab Spring?

KHALAF: I think as you said, Christiane, I mean, that image alone of Bashar al-Assad, who's been battling a revolt for two years, essentially calling and then gloating over the downfall of Mohammed Morsy, says it all. I think we've seen, you know, in Syria and now in Egypt a very significant setback to the hopes that people had two years ago.

I know that in Egypt a lot of people are very excited about the second revolution. But in reality, it is the army that is back in power in Egypt. Yes, with a lot of popular backing and, yes, with a lot of, you know, very able liberals and gleskas (ph) who are now -- and technocrats, in fact, who've been sworn into this government.

But the real power in Egypt is back to being the army. And that just tells you the extent to which the political transformation in this region that we've seen over the past two years has been set back.

AMANPOUR: Roula Khalaf, thank you so much. And of course, one of the senior U.S. government officials, Deputy Secretary of State William Burns, has been in the region, still is. And he didn't have a huge amount of luck meeting with all elements of the Egyptian leadership yesterday. He didn't meet with the rebels, Tamarod; he obviously didn't meet with the Muslim Brotherhood.

It is interesting to see America's moves in the region right now.

But after a break, we'll come back to stories from here: what you might see is the statue of Queen Victoria behind me at Buckingham Palace. And it's a reminder of a time when Britannia ruled the waves and just about everywhere else.

But while the globe may have shrunk, Shakespeare's Globe Theater is still going strong. And now it's going global in celebration of the Bard's birthday and the enduring power of his words. That's when we come back.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, there's a statue of Queen Victoria behind me, just outside Buckingham Palace. Queen of England, Empress of India and during whose reign it was said that the sun never sets on the British Empire.

Britain may no longer be the great power it once was, but it still exports an unrivaled resource and that is the English language. Imagine a world where Britain's latest ambassador is a 400-year-old fictional character who can't make his mind up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

"HAMLET": To be or not to be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: For instance, that was written back in 1603. "Hamlet" has been the Mt. Everest of Shakespearean characters, a challenge met by the world's greatest actors on stage and on screen. It's been played by acclaimed actresses, too, like the legendary Sarah Bernhardt back in the 1890s. And it's even spawned avant-garde productions in unlikely places like swimming pools.

And now the Globe Theater here in London, a replica of Shakespeare's own stage, has announced a world tour that is truly worldwide, a small troupe of actors will travel by boat, bus and plane to perform "Hamlet" in every nation on the actual globe, all 205 of them, some of which have never seen the play performed.

It's all part of an international celebration of Shakespeare's 450th birthday next April. The bard would be proud. After all, he's the one who said that "all the world's a stage."

And that's it for tonight's program. Meantime, you can always stay and contact via Twitter @CAmanpour. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.

END