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Amanpour

Race and South Africa Today; How South Africans View Zimmerman Verdict

Aired July 18, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program from outside Buckingham Palace in London where the feverish wait continues for the birth of William and Kate's baby, the latest royal heir. But nearly 6,000 miles south of here in South Africa, the 95th birthday of a truly heroic and inspirational leader is being celebrated this day.

Nelson Mandela may be lying in hospital. But all around him and all around the world, including at the United Nations, the annual Mandela Day is being marked with tributes from presidents, activists and men, women and children everywhere.

This year the Mandela Foundation has asked people to perform 67 minutes of some kind of community service to mark the 67 years that Mandela has devoted so far to public service, at great personal cost.

And in a moment, we'll speak with the renowned South African filmmaker, Anant Singh.

But first, our Robyn Curnow reports from Pretoria on the sights, sounds and prayers being said for Mandela on this birthday.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBYN CURNOW, CNN HOST (voice-over): Their message: happy birthday and thank you to a man who retired from public life even before they were born.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We wish you a happy 95th birthday. We all love you. Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

CURNOW (voice-over): But on his 95th birthday, for these children, there are still lessons to be learned from Nelson Mandela's life.

SELLO HATANG, CEO, NELSON MANDELA CENTER OF MEMORY: He represents something in humanity that we should all have and it's that thing that's special in each one of us.

CURNOW (voice-over): These bikers (ph) also want to honor him.

ZELDA LA BRANGE, MANDELA'S PERSONAL ASSISTANT: And he showed us that if you do good for other people, it makes you feel good. It makes you a better person.

CURNOW (voice-over): So they've come to renovate this shelter for abused girls; unlikely painters, united by the former president.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And whatever it is he chooses, a sport or as a club or even people playing poker can do something for Mandela Day.

CURNOW (voice-over): The former president's legacy will endure long after he's gone.

But surrounded by letters he wrote in his 27 years in prison, his archivist, Verne Harris, says South Africans can also take comfort in Mandela's fighting spirit.

VERNE HARRIS, MANDELA'S ARCHIVIST: Well, he was reported as saying about a year ago that I know people are waiting for me to die, but I'm going to stay until I'm 100. So you know, it's a long walk.

CURNOW (voice-over): On the wall outside his hospital, handwritten notes, personal messages, another birthday for a leader, still connected with his people, still inspiring hope -- Robyn Curnow, CNN, Pretoria, South Africa.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And let's just take a moment to rewind the clock about four years to the first global celebration of Nelson Mandela's birthday. It took place in New York and at that time, a French first lady, Carla Bruni, took to the stage in New York and sang a special song in honor of Mandela's birthday.

Now that Carla Bruni is no longer first lady but has reverted back to being a professional singer, I interviewed her a few weeks ago on this program and I asked her to sing that song again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: What was it like meeting him, you and your husband did. What did you get out of that? What was that moment like?

BRUNI: I was wondering -- sometimes, you meet some sort of people -- he came out after 20 years of jail forgiving the people that put him in jail, feeling sorry for them. That's what he said.

So sometimes in life, you get to meet this kind of person very rarely that makes worth life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And now we turn to South Africa's preeminent producer and documentarian, Anant Singh. Now he's the man responsible for some of the country's most notable anti-apartheid work. He adapted the great book, "Cry, the Beloved Country," and also "Place of Weeping."

Singh has previously chronicled Nelson Mandela's political struggles and his personal triumph. And his work has gained the respect of South Africa's democracy icon so much so that in fact he was granted the rights to produce Mandela's autobiography, "Long Walk to Freedom" for the big screen.

His film will be released in South Africa and the United States this fall and here in England, and around the world, early next year. And Anant Singh joins me now.

Welcome from Durban, Anant.

ANANT SINGH, FILMMAKER: Hi. How are you?

AMANPOUR: So take me back now, all those years, when you first started to communicate with him, when you first started to talk about your collaboration on his autobiography.

Where was he then, how did you get in touch?

What was your relationship?

SINGH: Well, you know, I've always tried to make films that were socially relevant. And during apartheid, of course, anti-apartheid films. So naturally in the mid-'80s, I felt his story was one of the most remarkable stories of his journey and as a freedom fighter and I wanted to tell this into a motion picture.

And I communicated with him while he was in prison, had very modest letters back from him about whether anybody would want to see his story in a film. So it began almost 25 years ago to try and get this story and to bring it to the big screen.

AMANPOUR: And, I mean, obviously, I understand why you want to do this and how incredible it is that you did get the rights.

But tell us what will this story do for the world?

What do you hope to tell the world with this -- with this adaptation of his own autobiography?

SINGH: Well, I think, you know, Madiba's had an amazing life, you know, just growing up in the village, starting as an 8-year old in a rural environment and then going through the journey of coming to Johannesburg, becoming the first black lawyer, having the -- that experience of apartheid and then taking on the struggle, getting to Robben Island.

That whole story is so powerful and the idea of his leadership, his humility and all the strengths that we as individuals who have been fortunate to have known him or to know him and to have met him have been able to benefit from.

And it's so great that here we are, able to celebrate his 95th birthday and also to have the film to be a part of that amazing legacy. So you know, it really is very special for us. I think also that I was able to show him some of the images and scenes from the film at the end of last year was also exciting.

But I think most importantly I feel that the world, the audiences, everybody is interested in his story. We know very little about what his journey has been. And I certainly feel that the timing of having this film come out at the end of the year -- and hopefully it will be embraced by audiences and not only in the English-speaking world, but all over elsewhere, too.

AMANPOUR: Well, that brings me to the lessons you think that Mandela's life work and the ability that he had to create the Rainbow Nation out of all that hatred and division.

When you look around and you see all these emerging attempts at democracy, do you particularly feel that there's, you know, a real sort of learning, teachable moment right now from that story, from his story?

SINGH: Absolutely. I think that he was remarkable in the ability, together with his colleagues -- which he always makes certain that we acknowledge -- that this could not have been done without the whole team, or all of the teamwork without the ANC that actually helped them, helped get us -- achieve our liberation.

But largely Madiba's journey of being able to manage and to orchestrate negotiations and do all of that, which came under tremendous criticism during the days in the early -- in the '90s, just after his release, was part of the structure of how we got to where we were.

So the other side of it is that he's so special in a way that he makes everybody feel so comfortable in talking with him; you feel like you're just talking to another friend and I think it's -- that is his remarkable spirit of being able to make everybody feel loved.

AMANPOUR: And finally, Anant, do you think South Africa is living up to his example, living up to his hope and his promise?

SINGH: You know, South Africa, we came in here out of apartheid. I would have liked to have seen more being done over the past 20 years. Unfortunately, you know, it's a tough road ahead and a tough road in the past. I think we need to work harder. There's always room for improvement.

And I do hope that we are able to deliver that better life for all that people are so desperate for in the less fortunate areas of our country and continent.

AMANPOUR: Anant Singh, thank you very much indeed, and we look forward to the " Long Walk to Freedom."

Now Nelson Mandela set a standard, as we say, that the Rainbow Nation has struggled to meet. Still that struggle for justice and reconciliation goes on, not only in the halls of government, but in the lives of everyday people, and we'll hear from such a South African, a radio host whose ear is tuned to a very human frequency.

But before we take a break, birthday tributes are pouring in from world leaders who worked with and also highly and greatly admired Nelson Mandela and one of those is former President Bill Clinton, who spoke of how Mandela has influenced him and so many others across the world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think we all have the capacity to follow the example, to be catalysts for good, to change the world around us for the better. In doing so, we can inspire more and more people to live as Mandela has, with the belief that tomorrow just does not have to be like yesterday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program, where we are live this week outside Buckingham Palace here in London. The anticipation is building for the birth of the royal baby, which is expected at any moment.

But in South Africa, another celebration of life, the 95th birthday of Nelson Mandela, and his vision of a Rainbow Nation. The fight for a society free from racism goes on, not just in South Africa, but in nations all around the world.

This week, as we know, in the United States, George Zimmerman was found not guilty in the murder trial of a young African-American teenager, Trayvon Martin.

The verdict has divided the U.S. among those who feel justice was reached and those who feel it wasn't and that race played a role in the outcome.

My next guest says the case has even struck a chord in South Africa. Eusebius McKaiser is a South African radio host and he's an author.

Welcome to the program from Johannesburg.

So let me start by asking you, since I think it speaks volumes, not just about what's going on in the United States, but also South Africa.

How is the reaction there to the Trayvon Martin verdict?

EUSEBIUS MCKAISER, SOUTH AFRICAN RADIO HOST AND AUTHOR: It's been a fascinating reaction to the Trayvon Martin case here from my listeners on Power Wave FM (ph), which is a Johannesburg radio station, Amanpour. And a lot of people were basically responding with what I think are their own racial affinities towards the particular case.

The sense was that it was a travesty of justice, especially from black South African listeners to my radio station. And I think that is because a lot of them feel that this case cannot be assessed in narrow legalistic terms but rather that young, urban black people in America were also on trial in terms of where black youth are at.

And it reminds me a lot of people's reactions to the O.J. Simpson trial in the early 1990s. So my listeners here in South Africa certainly responded to the trial with very heavy racial categories and a deep sense of racial affinity.

AMANPOUR: So on this day of Nelson Mandela's 95th birthday, who obviously tried and did bring South Africa together, what does it say, this reaction in South Africa, about where your country is right now?

MCKAISER: I think that's a beautiful question because one of the legacies of Nelson Mandela on paper is that he stands for non-racialism. And that is supposed to mean, Amanpour, a South Africa where we transcend our racial categories and the history of racialism.

But if I listen to how my listeners on my radio platform reacted to this verdict in America, I think it tells us that in South Africa there's still a gap between Nelson Mandela's vision of a non-racial South Africa, and the reality that, deep in our society, we still have group-based identities that will take a long time before they disappear.

AMANPOUR: Well, talk to me a little bit about that, because, again, on this day, it's good to reflect on what's ahead for your country. Obviously there's been so much progress that Mandela himself and, as he always says, his colleagues and his partners, really launched.

But there is a sense of a promise that hasn't fully been realized. Yes, blacks have got so much better off economically; risen up to the middle class, so much more opportunity. But even within the black community in your country, there seems to be a lot of inequality.

MCKAISER: That is absolutely spot on. What we have achieved in South Africa is political freedom. But political freedom is not the sum total of social justice for the black African majority, Amanpour. And so the reality is that we are one of the most unequal societies in the Milky Way (ph).

And for that reason, there's deep discontent amongst many South Africans who do not understand in material terms what freedom really means. We've got a beautiful constitution; we have these ideals of non-racialism, the legacy of reconciliation, a sense of public service, which is what the 67 minutes commitment is all about.

But there's still a gigantic gap between political freedom and economic freedom. And that's where the discontent for many South Africans is.

So in a sense, it's really bittersweet. We love Nelson Mandela. We celebrate today; we look towards the values around things like a sense of public service and reconciliation, but at the same time, the yearning for substantive equality is something that continues.

AMANPOUR: So just tell me what are you, what are your listeners, what are the people who you're talking to going to be doing in these 67 minutes?

MCKAISER: One thing that is fantastic, though, about South African society, Amanpour, is the resilience that we have, despite the challenges that I've outlined. So to your question you've just asked, for example, there is a sense that we have to get on with it, as the English might say.

So the kind of initiatives that people are getting involved in is to look towards those who are worse off than themselves, in terms of their income inequality gap, get involved, go to schools, paint for a day, read to children, arm ourself.

I'm passionate about books. Nelson Mandela calls this -- as someone who was famously passionate about children and so we spent time today with children here in South Africa, reading towards them because the escapism that comes from the magic of losing yourself in books is something that really can help someone forget about the hardship a little while, while at the same time punting the message of literacy being important.

So there are lots of initiatives, corporates getting involved, all South Africans getting involved. But the challenge for us going forward, Amanpour, is to make every single day Mandela Day, rather than just this being a once-off occasion where it becomes a gimmick. And I don't think we have yet a culture of public service in South Africa. But it certainly is a good start.

AMANPOUR: It is indeed a good start.

But how are you as a nation going to meet that challenge, because, look, let's face it: in the glorious aftermath of the fall of apartheid, South Africa was a huge magnet for investment and there was so much activity, so much economic growth. In fact, incredibly, people don't really realize this, but of the top 10 best economic performing countries right now, six or seven of them are in Africa.

Why is it that we don't see those results more? What is it that needs to happen in Africa or the way the world -- rest of the world sort of interacts with Africa?

MCKAISER: OK. So two points are important in response to that question, the good news firstly is that South Africa's democratic architecture is solid.

There are massive dissimilarities between ourselves and a neighboring country such as Zimbabwe, when it comes to the fundamentals of a democracy, like a free press, like constitutional supremacy model that absolutely works, a civil society that is vibrant, an opposition of politics and a free media. So that's the good news.

The problem is that we now have near systemic -- in fact, some people will say systemic levels of state incapacity as well as corruption and unethical behavior that is at the heart of a state that is not functioning at an optimal level.

So what we need to do going forward is to have sufficient political will from the ruling African National Congress to root out unethical behavior and to capacitate the state so that we have a better functioning bureaucracy.

But right now what we see from the ANC is a reward for many of their political comrades for being comrades that are close to the political leaders, who get deployed to the state and often that is at the cost of having men and women inside the bureaucracy who can actually get on with implementing the policies.

My hope, Amanpour, is that with an election that is forthcoming, that as South Africa's democracy becomes more competitive, then that will be a political incentive for the government to think about how we can capacitate this state, because right now, the ANC's not doing the things that I've just been outlining, in part because it is politically complacent.

AMANPOUR: A lot to think about, a lot of food for thought. Thank you, Eusebius McKaiser.

And we will be back with a revealing portrait of Nelson Mandela that requires a second or even a third look.

But first, we've heard world figures like Bill Clinton offer their birthday tributes. But perhaps the greatest testimonial comes from those South Africans who followed in Mandela's large footsteps.

Cyril Ramaphosa was a young activist and a union leader who worked with Mandela to help end apartheid. He went on to become a highly successful businessman and was recently elected deputy president of the African National Congress. He appeared on this program back in January, and then he told us what Nelson Mandela means to him and to every spectrum of the Rainbow Nation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CYRIL RAMAPHOSA, DEPUTY PRESIDENT, ANC: All of us are just grateful that providence had delivered a person like Nelson Mandela in this nation at the right time to lead us out of bondage into freedom. And our task is to carry on with that legacy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, no birthday tribute to Nelson Mandela would be complete without a fitting portrait of this most iconic figure. Now imagine a world where those elusive qualities of courage, compassion and common sense are captured in stainless steel.

This unusual vision was created on a South African landscape. It's made of towering steel plates carved by a laser beam, 50 of them, to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Mandela's arrest, which was back in the 1960s.

Up close, you can't see the forest or the man himself for all the metal trees. But as you step back and literally put things in perspective, an image begins to take shape. And when you stand at just the right spot, just like now, when you begin to see in a new way, there he is, the Nelson Mandela whose eyes have always been on the prize.

On this very special birthday, we are all invited to follow that gaze to the far horizon of a brighter and better day.

And that's it for tonight's program. Meantime, you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.

END