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Amanpour

Talking with Queen Elizabeth's Cousin; New York Times London Correspondent Talks about the British

Aired July 19, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone, and welcome to our special weekend edition of the program, where we bring you the big stories that we covered this week. I'm Christiane Amanpour, reporting from outside Buckingham Palace. And we're here, of course, because it is all about the royal baby in London. And it's also captured a lot of the rest of the world's attention.

Metric ton loads of journalists have descended on this city, joining their British counterparts, camped out here at the palace behind me, where the bulletin will be posted and also outside St. Mary's Hospital, where the newest royal baby will be born. They've got ladders and cameras I place to capture whatever they can.

Now to get an inside view of all that's going on, I met Margaret Rhodes. She's Queen Elizabeth's first cousin and her lifelong friend. She and the queen were constant companions and playmates as little girls, and she has perhaps unparalleled insight into the royal family.

It's insight that she's willing to share without fear of being excommunicated by the palace. Rhodes was a bridesmaid at the Queen's marriage to Prince Philip, and they still see each other quite frequently.

Just earlier this week, Rhodes hosted Her Majesty as she often does on Sundays for a drink after church, here at her home near Windsor Castle, which, in fact, the Queen gave her as a gift three decades ago. And it's where I met Margaret Rhodes for a frank and funny conversation about all this royal hoopla.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Margaret Rhodes, welcome to the program.

MARGARET RHODES, QUEEN ELIZABETH II'S COUSIN: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: What went through your mind when suddenly your mother's sister became the Queen of England?

RHODES: I can remember to this day that I shamingly hopped around the dance floor, saying, "My uncle's now king," which was a very shaming thing to do, but I did it.

AMANPOUR: As we sit here, the whole world is waiting for the birth of --

(CROSSTALK)

RHODES: Sister Kate (ph) --

AMANPOUR: -- and William's child, anticipating.

Are you excited about the baby?

RHODES: Not terribly.

(LAUGHTER)

AMANPOUR: Why not?

RHODES: Well, you know, everybody has babies. And it's lovely. But I don't get wildly excited about it.

AMANPOUR: Heir to the throne?

RHODES: I know, but --

AMANPOUR: History?

RHODES: Yes. All right. I'm prepared to be excited.

(LAUGHTER)

AMANPOUR: Do you know, have you seen the number of satellite trucks - - those are the big broadcasting trucks --

RHODES: Really?

AMANPOUR: -- the amount of press that's camped out outside of Buckingham Palace?

RHODES: No, I haven't. I haven't. I haven't been there.

AMANPOUR: It's a complicated succession, though, isn't it? I mean --

RHODES: Yes, and of course it's just changed, which has been a very major step.

AMANPOUR: How has it changed?

RHODES: I can't help feeling -- personally I just feel that it's actually slightly unfair on the female sex if they are the firstborn.

Because when you're Queen, as we have now, you actually are doing the work mostly of a husband and wife. You're also the wife, the mother; you have to go around and see the bedrooms are right and ready for the guests, prepped inside; who's sitting next to who at dinner.

AMANPOUR: The Queen really does that?

RHODES: Yes. And she'll go around every bedroom. She will -- always goes to see the big -- when they have a banquet, I mean, see that the table is --

AMANPOUR: Properly set?

RHODES: -- properly set and the flowers are right and you know, and so it's a sort of double load.

AMANPOUR: So the Queen's like many working mothers, does the job of husband and wife?

RHODES: Yes, I think so.

AMANPOUR: But don't you think it's fair --

RHODES: Well, I think that probably nowadays, it probably is fair because of the -- I mean, I've always been the opposite of a feminist personally. But I think that -- I think that the whole trend of modern thinking is equality.

AMANPOUR: And so what we're actually talking about is that now for the first time the royal heir will be the firstborn whether it's a boy or a girl.

RHODES: Yes, whichever.

AMANPOUR: What life is that baby going to have?

RHODES: Oh, well, I imagine and hope that its early life, that it's at least in its teens, will be just a jolly, happy, ordinary child's life.

AMANPOUR: Do you think that's possible in the royal family?

RHODES: Well, they managed it with Princess Elizabeth and Princess Margaret.

AMANPOUR: That's the current queen.

RHODES: The current queen and her sister, (inaudible). I mean, the king and queen in those days made an enormous effort to give -- to keep their childhood sort of sacrosanct. I mean, it was just a time for learning and enjoying. And I think that they have succeeded awfully well.

AMANPOUR: You have said, talking about childhood, you have said that you feel the Queen got a bit of a bad rap after Princess Diana died and she did not come to London immediately and meet the outpouring of grief.

And you said that was because she was being a good granny, a good grandmother. Tell me what you meant by that.

RHODES: Well, I think it was an eminently sensible decision personally because what was the point -- we've got two grieving children, William --

AMANPOUR: William and Harry.

RHODES: -- William and Harry, whose mother's just died unexpectedly. And to go to London and sit in Buckingham Palace with nothing to do, nothing to do except sit and think about your mother or look out of the window at the crowds, I mean, what help was that for the boys?

AMANPOUR: Did the Queen ever talk to you about the aftermath?

RHODES: No. No. And I've never talked to her about it. I mean there are some things that one sort of keeps off, really.

AMANPOUR: Do you see her regularly?

RHODES: Well, (inaudible) now that I'm here in this house, which I've been in now for 32 years, because she comes to the little chapel in the park that I go to most Sundays. And so like yesterday, she was here, having a drink.

AMANPOUR: Yesterday right where we are?

RHODES: Yes.

AMANPOUR: She was seen having a drink with you?

RHODES: Yes.

AMANPOUR: That's nice.

RHODES: So she quite often does. She comes in after prayers for half an hour's, a quarter hour and just has a nice little drink and a chat.

AMANPOUR: Princess Diana was a huge figure. How do you think Kate measures up?

RHODES: Well, it's obviously impossible to tell, really. But what -- I've only seen a very little bit of her. But what I have seen, I think that she -- I think that she's doing very, very well.

I mean, I think that's she's done the jobs that have been given to her to do beautifully.

And I mean, I just -- I think she's got a way with her that's going to be very appealing. And I think that she won't sort of vie for coverage with -- which Diana perhaps did a little bit.

AMANPOUR: Tell me a little bit about Prince Philip, because you were around when a very young Princess Elizabeth -- I think she was 13 years old -- first met him. And he was 17.

Were there sparks? What went on?

RHODES: I think that in the way 13-year olds do, she fell in love with a very, very handsome young man.

AMANPOUR: And he was a Greek prince.

RHODES: Yes. Sort of a rather cosmopolitan kind of Greek prince.

AMANPOUR: And you described him as Viking god-like good looking.

RHODES: Yes. He was incredibly good-looking.

He's condemned nowadays largely for making what they call gaffes and actually what it is, is saying what he thinks most of the time. And it's rather -- it's rather -- I feel like it's a naval officer --

AMANPOUR: He's good old-fashioned politically incorrect --

RHODES: Yes, yes.

AMANPOUR: What do you think it was like for him? Because he could have had a naval career. He was going to go into the navy.

What did he have to give up to be the consort?

RHODES: Well, I think that he had to give up a lot, which was -- made it very difficult for a man to be second fiddle. You know, he's carved out a career for himself, which there was no real muddle for whatsoever.

I mean it was totally different, the Prince Consort today. And he -- I mean, he has a very, very busy life, the things that he does.

AMANPOUR: What does he feel about having to walk a few steps behind his wife?

RHODES: Well, I've never asked him. I imagine not something one would relish, say, do you like -- no, but I supposed -- it's the same, in a way, for both of them. I mean, the Queen has had to accept that she gives up the whole of her private life in being Queen.

She no longer can do what you and I can do and say, oh, look, it's a lovely day; let's go and have a picnic in the summer.

Her day, her months, her weeks are all laid out, organized six months ahead. So you give up an immense amount of freedom.

AMANPOUR: Do you think Kate has to give up that kind of freedom?

RHODES: Yes. I think if you -- well, especially, I mean, especially Kate. I mean, that ultimately she's going to be Queen and you know, the role takes over.

AMANPOUR: People who grew up in England, I suppose, knew the story of King George VI and Queen Elizabeth, your aunt. A lot of people were unaware of the personal travails of King George VI, his stammering, his health.

And when the film, "The King's Speech," came out, it was a blockbuster all over the world.

You knew him and you saw the film.

Was it a real -- ?

(CROSSTALK)

RHODES: I mean, I cried in the film. I mean, it was so well done. And I think it did show the difficulties he surmounted.

And there was one moment where he was making the king say a whole lot of frightfully rude words.

AMANPOUR: Swear words.

RHODES: Yes, in his sort of barrage. And I did say something to the Queen about that, and she said she'd never heard her father use bad language at all.

So whether that was true or not, I don't know.

AMANPOUR: Margaret Rhodes, thank you so much for joining me.

RHODES: Not at all. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So that's the view from inside the royal family. And after a break, we'll hear from an American anglophile, the public fascination and media frenzy surrounding Britain's royal baby as viewed through the eyes of "The New York Times" correspondent in London. How to stay objective when the whole world is obsessed with baby booties and baby names. That's when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program, where I'm reporting all this week from outside Buckingham Palace. And the end of another week of delayed hoopla over the arrival of the royal baby, because it still hasn't come yet.

But what kind of kingdom might the newest royal rule one day?

My next guest is an acute observer of all that makes Britain so British. Sarah Lyall has been London correspondent for "The New York Times" for the past 17 years.

And she's the author of "The Anglo Files," a funny and insightful compendium of England's quirks and proclivities as observed by an outsider who's deeply embedded in this culture.

Sarah, welcome.

SARAH LYALL, JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR: Thank you very much.

AMANPOUR: It's great to see you again.

LYALL: Good to see you, too.

AMANPOUR: And I know that you are, in fact, now wrapping up your 17 years as a Britain watcher for "The New York Times," and heading back to the States. It couldn't be at a more typical moment.

LYALL: Well, absolutely not.

Well, it is (inaudible) of course babies always come; people always get married. And the Royal Family is an object of considerable fascination no matter what they do. It's a great family to watch, because it's sort of like the Kardashians of Britain, only they have such a mystique about them.

You know, they're not going to go on and talk about what the labor was like and how hard it is to lose the baby weight and does Kanye want to see me breastfeeding.

So any little tidbit of information, everybody just eats up. You know, they say one banal little utterance, and it's the most fascinating thing that ever happened.

AMANPOUR: Even your august readers, even "The New York Times" readers are not immune from this thing that we're doing here.

LYALL: They're obsessed with it. It's unbelievable. It's "Downton Abbey" in the Royal Family. People love to read about that stuff.

AMANPOUR: Well, OK. You brought up "Downton Abbey," and that is this best, best (inaudible) best seller. It's a really highly rated program, not just here but also in the United States, on public television and probably around the world.

It brings up something really interesting that you've written about and actually that involves whether this new baby will be the heir, no matter the sex.

The idea of primogeniture, that here in England, it has to be a male in most of the households which inherit the titles, the property of the landed gentry.

LYALL: That's right.

AMANPOUR: That is so outdated.

LYALL: It's ridiculous. Well, the idea was originally to keep these estates together. So the notion was you have to pass it all down to one person. And most of these titles, we're talking about the nobility and the peerage, people in the House of Lords.

So their titles would have been granted hundreds of years ago by some monarch to, you know, reward some crony. And at that time, women, were, you know, chattel. And it's just sort of passed on down and no one's ever done anything about it.

So even if there's no boys in the family, if there's five girls, the title would pass to some cousin or somebody in Australia, you know, it's just the way it is.

AMANPOUR: And yet, it's not just a form of legal discrimination, it's really causing a lot of trouble within families. And it's coming, you know, to the fore. I think there's a bit of a movement, isn't there, by women in these families to try to change this.

LYALL: Well, there is. I mean, they say what it must be like, you know, you're growing up; you're the oldest child and you hear your mother continually say I wish I had a son. And then some son comes along and everyone's thrilled and you're sort of out in the cold.

And you know, in a nice family, they'll give you some money. But he'll get most of it. He gets the castle. He gets the nice house, all the estate. And you've got to go marry some other rich person or else you'll live very differently from the way you were raised.

AMANPOUR: And so in this case, the Royal Family, Buckingham Palace, is actually ahead of this. They've gotten ahead of this curve because the Queen has decreed that whatever the sex of Prince William and the Duchess of Cambridge's baby, that baby will be the heir.

LYALL: Well, more than just the Queen. It's -- Parliament has actually passed new legislation. So it's great. So no one's sort of going to say if this baby is a girl, oh, how sad; they'll have to get pregnant right away again and have a new child.

This will be the next monarch. But of course, it won't be; I mean, first, there's Prince Charles. Then there's William and then there's this baby. But maybe 50 years, you know, who knows.

AMANPOUR: So if Parliament has done it for the royal heir and the royal succession, what's stopping them doing it for the rest of -- ?

LYALL: Well, tradition, you know, it's a very traditional society here. And probably this last bastion of tradition are the older generation of the aristocracy. And they literally will say things like, well, we've always done it this way, so why would you do it another way? And they really are quite sexist.

AMANPOUR: And they have always done it this way and it's actually the whole idea of the Royal Family and the landed gentry and this great British tradition, which actually is a perpetual windfall for this country.

LYALL: Well, it really is. I mean, the Royal Family especially. I mean, you were talking a little bit about some of this baby paraphernalia, it's clothes, it's mugs, it's, you know, tea towels, all sorts of things that are for sale.

And you know, people are here watching all the time and coming to the changing of the guards and all these traditions, bringing the crowds.

AMANPOUR: But so society is changing today by royal assent, gay marriage, same-sex marriage is now permitted.

LYALL: Well, it just happened, didn't it? You know, it's so interesting here; it's really a consensual country. You definitely have differences among the political parties.

But you don't have the huge split and the rift between what in -- as we see in the United States.

So for an issue like this, it wasn't as if there were people writhing in the streets or demonstrating. It happened pretty quietly. And you know, it seemed there was a little opposition but the government won and this is what's happened.

AMANPOUR: And you've written a lot about it; you have some pretty funny stories about what was going on in the House of Lords and other places while these debates were underway.

LYALL: Well, a few years ago, the House of Lords actually had to debate on whether or not to outlaw all the hereditary peers. And those would be the ones that had inherited their titles.

And they could always be in the legislature. It was an inherited legislature. And so these people were debating and it was actually sort of sweet. I mean, some of them were just completely unqualified to be in the legislature.

And they were saying, well, you know, my family in the 15th century started to sit in this house and I take big responsibility and you know, I have a lot of experience running my estate. And so I -- you know, it was just -- it was amazing to hear it. It was like from another century.

AMANPOUR: You've written the book, "Anglo Files," a double entendre, obviously.

What is the most amazing thing that has struck you or the quirkiest thing or the most heartwarming thing, if I can put you on the spot?

(LAUGHTER)

LYALL: Well, you know, the thing about it is when you move to another country and you have these sort of stereotypes in your head of what it's going to be like, and in a way they're stereotypes because they're sort of true.

So it is true that British people are more reserved. It is true that they're obsessed with the weather. It is true that if you knock into them, they will apologize to you, that they're saying, "Sorry," all the time.

But I don't think I was prepared for the warmth underneath all of that. You know, it takes quite a while, but people are very, very warm here in a way you wouldn't notice originally.

AMANPOUR: Absolutely.

And England is slightly different in many regards from the rest of Europe. Britain is slightly different.

British Prime Minister David Cameron is getting ready for perhaps a referendum in 2017 on whether to stay in the union.

He's under a lot of pressure from the increasingly right wing, I guess.

LYALL: Yes, yes.

AMANPOUR: Is there going to be a divorce between Britain and the union?

LYALL: I think that'll be really hard to accomplish. I just don't see it. I mean, they're so tightly connected in ways that most people here don't even realize. The problem with referendums on Europe is they always are defeated, any time a treaty comes up in any country, and it's actually voted on, the country always defeats it.

So it's a -- he's getting himself in a real bind. I mean, this is a country that actually votes yes to divorce from Europe, I don't know what the government will do, quite honestly.

AMANPOUR: And just as you head back to the United States, this is a conservative government. It's called a conservative government, Tories.

But that is not -- nothing like what the conservatives are in the United States. I mean, you might call the British Tories sort of on the right of the Democrats.

Are you prepared for such conservatism back in the U.S.?

LYALL: Well, that's the thing that's so striking, looking at America from abroad, is you see it through such different eyes. You see it through European eyes almost.

And it is, you know, in the years I've been here, this schism between the two sides of America has been so appalling really. So I'm -- I am a little bit nervous about that, actually.

AMANPOUR: Well, New York will welcome you back with open arms, and we thank you very much for joining us.

LYALL: Thank you very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And after a break, another royal birth nearly 500 years ago that had the whole world waiting on diaper pins and needles. Imagine the unwanted baby girl who still inspires films and popular culture, who became the heart and soul of England's Golden Age. That's when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where another royal birth, even more anticipated than this one, led to the mother's execution, years of religious war (ph), but ultimately to England's Golden Age.

When Queen Anne Boleyn went into labor back in 1533, King Henry VIII and the rest of his kingdom held their collective breath, willing a son and heir into the world.

Henry had divorced his first wife for failing in that department, a divorce which led to England's breakaway from the Catholic Church. But now Anne had failed, too, for she also bore Henry a daughter. And her days were numbered. Several miscarriages later, she was beheaded.

And Henry would marry four more times and even have that long-awaited son. He became King Edward VI. But he died when he was only 15.

So after more years of turmoil, Anne Boleyn's daughter was indeed eventually crowned Queen of England and that unwanted baby girl, now a confident young woman, went on to rule for nearly half a century, raising her kingdom to unparalleled heights of power, prosperity and prestige.

Her name was Elizabeth and her story lives on in popular culture, the subject of bestselling books and Oscar-winning film.

And best of all, her descendant and namesake, Queen Elizabeth II, who waits expectedly in Buckingham Palace behind me, abolished the law that caused Henry and his wives all that pain and horror. Now the heir to throne is the firstborn, male or female.

And that's it for tonight's program. Meantime, you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.

END