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Amanpour

William And Kate Name New Royal George Alexander Louis; A Talk With Two Of The Elders; Francis Gives First Mass Abroad As Pope

Aired July 24, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour, reporting tonight from Trafalgar Square in London, where we have learned that some time in the next century perhaps a King George VII could reign over this land.

Since William and Kate have just named their baby George Alexander Louis. Now Trafalgar Square, where I'm sitting, was turned blue. The fountains were turned blue the night the baby was born. And it is dotted with statues of kings and other historic figures. And we'll tell you more about the Battle of Trafalgar's role in forging a lasting peace for Britain centuries ago later in the program.

Now imagine today if a group of distinguished former presidents, veteran diplomats and other leaders could come together using all their years of experience to forge a lasting peace and solve some of today's toughest problems. That is exactly what the legendary Nelson Mandela envisioned when he founded the independent group The Elders back in 2007.

The team is made up of some of the world's toughest and most successful negotiators with real results to show for their tenacity while they were still in office and an impressive commitment to peace now that they are out.

And tonight, I'll talk to two of them, former U.S. President Jimmy Carter and veteran diplomat Lakhdar Brahimi.

Jimmy Carter has devoted his life to trying to solve global conflict as president. He was the man who mediated the first-ever peace deal between Israel and Egypt, known as the Camp David Accords, which started after then Egyptian President Anwar Sadat made an unprecedented trip to Jerusalem in 1977.

He was the first Arab leader ever to visit the Jewish state, which led two years later to this memorable handshake between Sadat and the Israeli prime minister, Menachem Begin, at the White House. Carter's peace efforts then and after leaving office earned him the Nobel Peace Prize in 2002.

Now Algerian born career diplomat Lakhdar Brahimi has worked in trouble spots all over the globe, including in Lebanon, South Africa, Haiti, Iraq, Afghanistan and now he just might be facing his toughest challenge yet. He is the current U.N. Arab League envoy to Syria. And Brahimi is charged with finding a solution to the country's bloody civil war.

Both men just met with the U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry in Washington, who's desperately trying to revive the long-stalled Middle East peace process between Israelis and Palestinians. And earlier this week on this program, I spoke to negotiators from both sides.

And now I sit down with President Carter and Lakhdar Brahimi at Chatham House in London to see whether there really is a glimmer of a possibility that the Middle East's deepest wound has a chance at healing.

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AMANPOUR: President Carter, Mr. Lakhdar Brahimi, thank you so much for joining me and welcome to the program.

JIMMY CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good to be with you and with CNN.

LAKHDAR BRAHIMI, U.N. & ARAB LEAGUE SPECIAL ENVOY TO SYRIA: Thanks for having me.

AMANPOUR: There is so much to talk about and so much peace that needs to be wrought, that I want to ask you both, because between you, you have possibly 100 years of mediation experience.

AMANPOUR: Now, you have both met with Secretary of State John Kerry.

What did he say to you that gives you a feeling that there might be a window of opportunity this time?

And I ask you because both of you know there have been so many people, so many naysayers, so many people who have said that Secretary Kerry is on a fool's errand.

CARTER: Well, one thing is that he has not had much support in the United States, as you know. But he assures us that he has full support from the White House. And we also met with Susan Rice, the new national security adviser, who gave us that same assurance.

And there have been some glimmers of hope, I think, within the Congress, as well as some of the congressional leaders. I think 27, for instance, of the U.S. senators have recently expressed hope that there would be peace moving forward.

The other thing is that, although we realize that some of the opposition to peace processes in the Israeli government have warned Netanyahu that if, for instance, he pushed the 1967 borders on the table, they're going to withdraw his -- their support; that would be one of the main issues that has to be addressed.

And it won't be a public acknowledgement that it's being discussed, but obviously, the borders between Israel and the Palestinians is the crucial issue.

After that is resolved to some degree, then the settlements and other things will fall into shape.

And I think -- the last thing I'll say is that he's also made, I think, great progress in setting up an economic package that makes it attractive for some of the naysayers within the Palestinian community.

AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you, you talk about the 1967 borders, and, of course, for the Palestinians, that seems to be absolutely their condition. Even President Obama, in many speeches now, has referred to the '67 borders with obvious swaps.

What are the Arabs saying now regarding that?

Are the Arab nations, those who came up with the Arab Initiative, willing to see land swaps to sort of accommodate the '67 border issue?

BRAHIMI: I think they have always accepted the idea of swaps. The Arab countries have always said that they will support what the Palestinians accept.

And the Palestinians have accepted, a long time ago, the idea of minimal swaps and balanced swaps that if Israel takes a, you know, one hectare on one side, then there will have to be one hectare of similar land on the other side.

So I think the Arab countries have no problem with that. They have confirmed that publicly, recently, during the visit to Washington of an Arab League delegation.

AMANPOUR: So that is a bit of a move, the fact that they've said it publicly?

BRAHIMI: No, I think that has always --

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AMANPOUR: Do you think so?

BRAHIMI: -- been there. It has always been there.

CARTER: Well, they've never publicly said it. In 2002, you know, the Saudi Arabians and others said land swaps. But they didn't say it publicly.

But I think since Kerry's initiative, they've now made it official that that's part of the Arab League's commitment, the 1967 borders with some land swaps. And they can be 3 percent or 4 percent.

AMANPOUR: Do you think that both sides, who have said that they are going to put this to a referendum, if, indeed, there is a deal or an agreement, both the Israeli prime minister, Netanyahu, and, indeed Abu Mazen, Mahmoud Abbas --

CARTER: Even Hamas.

AMANPOUR: -- have said -- even Hamas?

CARTER: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Will that torpedo it or will that be better?

CARTER: I think it will be better, because if the tough negotiators can reach an agreement at the peace table and you can see a vision of what peace might bring to the average person, I think the referendum would be almost ensured to pass.

AMANPOUR: What do you think --

CARTER: But the tough thing is going to be at the negotiating table.

BRAHIMI: The Palestinians will definitely pass it, both in the West Bank and in Gaza.

CARTER: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Even in Gaza?

BRAHIMI: Absolutely.

AMANPOUR: Even though Hamas says that the P.A. has no authority to negotiate for them?

BRAHIMI: I'm not sure whether that's what they say. I think they say --

CARTER: That's not what they say.

BRAHIMI: -- they have always said that, you know, we have no objection to the P.A. negotiating.

Perhaps, you know, they will question some terms and some situations, but the principle of negotiations is not rejected by them.

And I think anybody who knows Gaza will tell you that the people in Gaza will welcome an agreement on the basis of 242 and the borders of '67.

AMANPOUR: Yes, the U.N. resolutions.

You delivered peace at Camp David in 1979.

How difficult was that compared to the challenge today?

So much time and so much bitterness has passed.

CARTER: Well, when I began this, there had been four wars in 25 years. And we had just seen elected in Israel a very hardliner, as you know, Menachem Begin, who had sworn not to give up any territory.

So we went to Camp David with not very much hope on the Israeli side. But eventually, I think the Israelis saw that what peace could bring to the whole people there, if they gave up the Egyptian territory, which is a lot of land in the Sinai Desert region. So they finally agreed.

And so I think now that the differences between the two are not nearly so great as they were then, if Israel will still accept, which they did in 1979, that the acquisition of territory by force is not legal, that is let United Nations Resolution 242.

AMANPOUR: And by the same token, Mr. Brahimi, do the Palestinians have to give on this issue of the right of return?

Do they have to tell their people, honestly, that all the millions of exiles, the refugees who have been out there since '48, will not be able to come back to Israel itself?

BRAHIMI: The right of return has always been return or compensation.

AMANPOUR: OK.

BRAHIMI: The principle of return, that, you know, the justice, the injustice that has been done to these people has to be recognized. Once you have recognized that, arrangements have to be made.

And I think that the Palestinians are mature enough and responsible enough and realistic enough to know that not every single Palestinian who left or was thrown out of their homes and their villages, their descendants will be accepted again in Israel. I think they understand that.

But the injustice has to be recognized.

AMANPOUR: Let's move on to Syria. You are the U.N. envoy and the Arab League envoy. You still hope, apparently, that there will be some kind of peace process amongst the Syrian belligerents.

Really?

You really think they're going to come to the table?

BRAHIMI: No. I think what we are saying is that there is no military victory, neither today, nor tomorrow nor the day after tomorrow. But this problem, like all problems, has to be solved and will be solved. And it will be solved through a political process. And the earlier you start that political process, the better for the Syrian people.

We are not saying that this is going to happen tomorrow or that the conditions are all there. But we are -- we are, you know, begging and warning and appealing to everybody to understand this very simple fact: there is no military victory. A political solution is possible. The earlier you get it, the better.

AMANPOUR: There have been sort of hints that the West would help the opposition, try to level the playing field. As you know, everybody from President Obama on down has said Assad must go.

Well, Assad is still there. And according to the top U.S. military chief, Chairman Martin Dempsey, he thinks he'll still be there in a year.

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AMANPOUR: What has the West done wrong, Mr. President, to be, at this stage, two years into this war in Syria?

CARTER: Well, I think one of the mistakes from the very beginning was that Assad had to step down as a first step, which was never possible --

BRAHIMI: As a precondition.

CARTER: -- as a precondition. That was the American position. The Russians and Chinese, some others disagreed with that.

But that's been their -- that's been the situation until May, as Lakhdar has just said. And I think now that that's not a precondition, but everybody says he still has to go eventually. That is enough, perhaps, to let the peace talks start.

The other thing, obviously, is we don't know who the opposition is. We don't know what comprises the opposition forces. A lot of them are very radical, maybe al Qaeda and so forth. Some of them more committed to democracy. But that's another very serious problem. And they are divided.

So I think that what Lakhdar is doing and what Kofi Annan did before him is a notable and very courageous effort for peace and persistence, patience together is what is going to pay off.

Mr. Brahimi, I thought you wanted to leave this position and you were begged by the secretary general to stay on.

I mean do you really have any hope that this is going to transpire, as you've just outlined it?

Yes, you say, there will be no military solution, but really, any time soon?

BRAHIMI: I don't know how soon. You know, it all depends on what kind of political will you are going to generate.

AMANPOUR: May I ask you about Edward Snowden?

CARTER: Yes.

AMANPOUR: You have been quoted by a German magazine --

CARTER: Which was incorrect.

But go ahead.

AMANPOUR: Was it incorrect?

CARTER: Yes.

AMANPOUR: I just want to know for the -- for the record, because they quoted you as basically saying that what he did was beneficial to the situation by revealing the extent of the NSA surveillance.

CARTER: Well, that's almost right. What I said was that Snowden has violated the law, that he had to be punished if he gets under the domination of the United States, and he knows that, but that the revelation of what has been done -- not the details of it, but the fact that we were listened to and with our telephone calls and our cell phones and everything else, was something that's now precipitated a debate even among members of Congress, who didn't know about it ahead of time, before him.

So it opens up the question of how much intricacies should be given to the government to extract from our communications that were not really known about by the American public.

So I think that part of it has been good.

But what Snowden did is obviously a serious violation of the law.

AMANPOUR: President Carter, Mr. Lakhdar Brahimi, thank you very much, indeed for joining me.

BRAHIMI: Thank you.

CARTER: Thank you, Christiane.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: I also asked both men for their reflections on the founder, Nelson Mandela, who just last week, as you know, turned 95 in hospital. Listen to what Carter and Brahimi told me about how Israelis and Palestinians could take a page out of Mandela's book when it comes to making bitter compromises for peace. That's online at amanpour.com.

And as we discussed, a highlight of Jimmy Carter's presidency was the Camp David Accords. Anwar Sadat, the Egyptian president at the time, was later assassinated by Islamic militants in 1981. Hosni Mubarak succeeded him and kept up the peace treaty. He was overthrown in a revolution two years ago.

But what is the fate of Egypt's first democratically elected president, Mohammed Morsy? Morsy, who also stuck with the Camp David Accords, has not been seen or heard from since July 3rd, when he was deposed by the military. The U.S. has called for his release; Egypt's interim leaders will only tell me that he's in a safe place.

Now after a break, the first Latin American pope, Francis, returns to the continent of his birth, visiting the world's biggest Catholic Church. But how much longer can it stay that way? The pope in Brazil when we return.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program and we turn now to the mission of Pope Francis, who has said his first mass abroad at Aparecida, the most important Catholic shrine in Brazil, where the first pontiff from Latin America is celebrating World Youth Day. Catholic Church marks that every two years.

Francis has been enthusiastically received by the people and the president, Dilma Rousseff. Massive, happy crowds have taken to the streets but still the Brazilian church faces some serious challenges.

In the world's biggest Catholic country, the church's congregation is actually shrinking, a combination of mounting indifference and secularism and also stiff competition from growing evangelical Protestant groups.

But at least Pope Francis made it to Brazil for a moment a few weeks ago it looked like this trip might have been in jeopardy because of the equality enthusiastic protests by people demanding better government services and much less corruption.

CNN's senior Vatican analyst, my old friend, John Allen, joins me now from Rio de Janeiro.

John, great to see you there. How important is this mission for Pope Francis? What is his real goal in Brazil?

JOHN ALLEN, CNN SR. VATICAN ANALYST: Hey, Christiane. Well, I think this is an extraordinarily important mission for Francis on two levels. One is, of course, this is his first international trip. This is the first time, so to speak, he's taken his act on the road. And of course, his first 41/2 months in Rome has generated an enormous reservoir of goodwill around the world.

He's seen as the people's pope, a pope who has brought new life and a breath of fresh air to this old institution. This is the first opportunity to sort of test whether or not that's going to work when he gets onto the highways and byways of the modern world.

The other issue here, of course, is this is Francis' backyard.

And as you say, although there is a rich and deep Catholic history in Latin America, the Catholic Church in many ways here in a church under siege for its traditional hold on the population has been eaten away with the sort of sudden rise and the massive growth of evangelical and Pentecostal groups that have turned to Latin America into a kind of Wild West religious free market.

And the question is whether the personal popularity of this very charismatic pope can translate into a new missionary drive, Christiane, for the church he leads.

AMANPOUR: And let me ask you, John, because he has spoken many, many times now about the plight of young people. I think he spoke to journalists such as yourself on the plane to Brazil and as I said when I introduced you, you've seen massive Brazilian crowds on the streets, demanding better from their government.

What has he been saying about this, that's manifesting itself in Brazil and all over the world, really, as we watch?

ALLEN: Well, first of all, Christiane, what we should say about that wild enthusiasm you've seen in the streets is that Francis seems to be generating delight for the masses and heart attacks among his security personnel in almost equal measure because I think this is a pope who wants the lightest possible filter between himself and the people.

And while that's, of course, key to his charisma, those who are trying to keep him out of harm's way, I think, are having some very long nights this week.

Now that said, I mean, it's -- to come to your point, I think the core message that he's trying to deliver to young people on this trip is that he wants young people to see themselves as inserted into the struggles of society and the context of Brazil today, of course, that does mean that the kind of upheaval you have seen in this country with massive numbers of people taking to the streets to protest for a more just social order, pushing back against perceived corruption, waste of public resources, languishing health care and education and so on.

Now while Francis has not directly addressed any of those issues, and, frankly, I don't expect him to, because I don't think he wants himself to be politically manipulated while he's here, the core of his message, which is that he wants young people to be advocates for social change and in a particular way to be advocates for the poor.

I don't think it's possible that that won't in some way be perceived by those who took to the streets in June as a kind of indirect papal blessing.

AMANPOUR: John Allen, thank you so much.

And as I said at the top, at the beginning of our program, we are broadcasting from Trafalgar Square tonight, which is a monument to Britain's rich maritime history. There's Lord Horatio Nelson's column, you can see, and three other plinths.

They're adorned with images of Britain's kings and generals and under the scaffolding just there is a fourth plinth. That was built back in 1841 to house a statue that was never actually completed. And now it's home to an array of innovative and often controversial public art displays, including Alison Lapper Pregnant.

It was a monumental nude sculpture done by the British artist Mark Quinn. And it portrayed a model whose limbs were deformed by the drug thalidomide, which was then banned in Britain after the "Sunday Times" investigation into birth defects that it caused, like Alison Lapper's back in 1962.

It was a triumph of investigative journalism and we know that that kind of journalism is still so desperately needed.

And when we return, why the history in Trafalgar Square resonates right to this very day.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, while we've been discussing the prospects for peace in the Middle East, it is somewhat ironic that we've been standing in the shadow of one of Britain's most iconic war heroes, Admiral Horatio Nelson -- or maybe not so ironic.

Imagine a world where a man of war set in motion what became a lasting peace, over 200 years ago off the coast of Spain, at Cape Trafalgar, to be exact. Adm. Nelson sank Napoleon's fleet and prevented the invasion of Britain. Nelson died at the moment of his greatest triumph and this square was dedicated in his honor.

The Battle of Trafalgar did not end the Napoleonic Wars; that would come 10 years later at Waterloo in today's Belgium. And after 700 years of conflict, Britain and France would never again wage war with each other. That didn't stop a latter-day Napoleon, Adolf Hitler, from planning his own invasion of Britain. He even vowed to dismantle Nelson's column and bring it back to Berlin as a trophy.

But just as Nelson ruled the sea, the British Spitfire ruled the skies above us and 73 years ago this summer, in the Battle of Britain, the German invasion was thwarted. It was not the beginning of the end of that war, as Winston Churchill would later say, but it was the end of the beginning.

And that's it for tonight's program. Meantime, you can always contact us on our Facebook page. That's amanpour.com/Facebook. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.

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