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Amanpour
Interview with London Mayor Boris Johnson; The Future of Iran
Aired July 25, 2013 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour live from London tonight, where you can see the London Eye behind me, that great tourist attraction and a city and a nation just slowly coming down off the royal baby-induced high, but getting another kind of boost at the same time.
Today new figures showing the U.K. economy is slowly but surely headed in the right direction as GDP grew by 0.6 percent in the last quarter.
I sat down today with London's colorful mayor, Boris Johnson, whose office overlooks the River Thames and Tower Bridge, the bridge that, of course, was bathed in blue light for Prince George's arrival at the beginning of this week.
The mayor may be best known for introducing Boris Bikes and banning big, bendy buses, for his many verbal gaffes that alternate between hilarious and offensive and for that zip line stunt that he pulled at the opening of the London Olympics last summer.
But he also presides over a thriving city economy, aided by the Olympic dividend and the confidence that investors who are pouring billions of pounds into new housing and development, into shopping malls. And today he told us of plans to build -- get this -- the biggest ski center in Europe, right there in the Olympic Park.
Ever mindful of people expecting him to play the buffoon, this U.S. - born Oxford educated former journalist and now mayor told me that he is deadly serious about alleviating the plague of youth unemployment and getting a better deal for Britain to remain part of the E.U.
And, oh, as popular as he is, he says he doesn't want to be prime minister.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, Mayor.
BORIS JOHNSON, MAYOR OF LONDON: Well, welcome to London.
AMANPOUR: It's great to be here. And this has been an unbelievable week.
What is it like to be mayor of a city where the whole world's eyes are on it? You now have a new --
(CROSSTALK)
JOHNSON: It's very exciting. And it's -- what I've said this morning is that this is yet another legacy from the joyful events of the summer of 2012, or the ecstasy of 2012, because I got the statistics. And this is the biggest baby boom this city has seen since 1966, when England won the World Cup. People were so buoyed by the Olympics, is the analysis I'm putting on it, anyway.
(CROSSTALK)
JOHNSON: They've -- and such is their confidence in the future of the city, they're expressing that confidence in the most vivid possible way by having more kids. How about that?
(CROSSTALK)
JOHNSON: And including a royal baby.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Well, there you go, said like a proud --
JOHNSON: -- to crown it all.
AMANPOUR: How -- what is the legacy then of 2012, of the Olympics? I mean, you were so front and center in that, including the famous zip line, but it --
JOHNSON: Yes. That was the only piece of transport infrastructure that seriously malfunctioned. That's my line.
And it was -- I was very lucky to be part of it. I think everybody who was in London running, trying to help run it during the summer of 2012, we were conscious that it was a -- one of the biggest things we'd ever do in our lives.
But it is also delivering spectacular economic benefits for the city. And this is always something that's very controversial with economists and with the naysayers, they would say, oh, come on, you know; prove it to us that such and such a thing has actually depended on the Olympics.
I refuse to believe that these things would have been unlocked if it hadn't been for that positive forward momentum.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Well, then let me ask you then, since you bring it up, we've seen these amazing street protests in Brazil recently. It's a lot -- there are a lot of reasons for it. But one of the big rallying cries was boycott the World Cup. Boycott the Olympics, you know, this is not going to do anything for us.
What is your reaction to that?
(CROSSTALK)
JOHNSON: Well, it's very interesting. I think obviously that it is - - you could easily get rattled in those circumstances and think, are we doing the right thing? Is this -- is this maybe a crazy extravagance?
And I think it's very important to remember the regeneration benefits that will flow, the positive boost that your city and your country will get from the successful games.
And one of the most important lessons I think we got from the 2012 experience was don't get spooked by the doubters, because they will come for you and they will find -- they will criticize everything. And you've just got to butch it out and keep going.
AMANPOUR: What about the whole argument over the E.U.? Prime Minister Cameron has said that, you know, unless he gets changes to Britain and (inaudible) --
JOHNSON: You know, I just -- I think what I would do, if I were the people leading the pro-E.U. campaign, you know, the Keep Us In campaign, I would stop soliciting these letters from around the world, from other governments urging the British people to do the right thing and stay in the European Union --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Well, I was going to ask you about that.
JOHNSON: -- I just think -- you know, it's -- I just think it's getting a little bit oppressive. And I think that, in the end, people are massively commonsensical in this country. And they will want the outcome that is best for Britain.
And what they're going to -- they're going to hit very hard and they're going to say how can we maximize our economic advantage whilst minimizing the interference? That's what we're going to want. We're going to want a relationship that keeps us in the single market but stops so much of the nonsense coming --
AMANPOUR: And you think there will be --
JOHNSON: -- and so they --
AMANPOUR: -- a la carte Britain, a la carte membership?
JOHNSON: I think that it's -- the one good thing about the discussion at the moment is that I think that it is raising the awareness in other capitals that we could leave. And that possibility will, I think, galvanize our friends and partners in other European capitals to be understanding in the negotiations.
David Cameron is going to go to have an intergovernmental conference to try to get better terms. And I think that those better terms will be easier to secure, given the obvious risk that the rest of Europe could lose an economy that is extremely important for them within the single market. They need us as much as we need them.
AMANPOUR: And what about you yourself? You -- my figures show -- are the most popular British politician --
(CROSSTALK)
JOHNSON: Well, there's two points. That is not a very hotly contested field.
(LAUGHTER)
JOHNSON: But -- and the second point is that's -- it's a (inaudible). I would --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Would you stand for Parliament again? Will you stand for prime minister?
JOHNSON: I'm deliriously happy. I'm deliriously happy. I'm lucky to be mayor of London. I think many Londoners, Christiane -- and -- woke up on the -- in May 2008, in the state of amazement that I'd become mayor and then there were -- they were -- they were --
AMANPOUR: Amazement because they thought it could never happen?
JOHNSON: -- (inaudible) exactly.
And then they were amazed again in 2012. I know how lucky I am to be --
AMANPOUR: When you got reelected?
JOHNSON: Yes. It's a fantastic job. It really is one of the most engrossing jobs I can imagine doing anywhere, ever.
And it -- to a certain extent, it gluts the appetite for power. You know, I can take executive decisions and get things done in London at a speed and on a scale -- I know that sounds megalomaniacal now, but I don't think many secretaries of state can in Whitehall. And so it's just endlessly, endlessly fascinating.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Well, is that a no? You don't want to be prime minister?
JOHNSON: I -- what's it -- what did Michael Heseltine say? I want to be -- I want to be mayor of London and I certainly can't foresee any sort of bit, any services in which I would be prime minister because the -- David Cameron -- you look at what's happening now -- is steering, I think, ever more comfortably towards a victory in 2015.
It's very striking that the polls have narrowed between us and Labour; the lead of Ed Miliband is incredibly fragile now.
And I think Labour have completely miscued this thing. Their only trick was to say that the economy wasn't going to recover.
Well, what happens as the economy gains pace and gathers strength? They have nothing to say.
AMANPOUR: You said that people woke up in amazement and shock that you had been elected. And that's obviously because --
JOHNSON: Some people, yes.
AMANPOUR: -- some people -- that's obviously because you are a -- I mean, I suppose "colorful" would be a kind way to put it. You're a very colorful, very controversial, very prone --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: -- to what people might call gaffes.
JOHNSON: -- nice of you to say so, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Well, that's you. I mean, I could read some of the gaffes but I'm sure you don't want me to.
JOHNSON: Well, almost, yes -- well, no, don't.
AMANPOUR: But you did also give a fairly moving interview, which I read, in which you said that it's actually much more difficult for you to talk seriously, because when you go out, people are expecting the one- liner. People are expecting the joke. People are expecting --
JOHNSON: Oh, yes. Well, this was --
AMANPOUR: -- perform to type.
JOHNSON: Well, this is -- yes, I don't know why I was being so candid, and it's absolutely true. Sometimes I'm making a speech and I've got -- I've just got to say something unbelievably dull but important. And I see the audience looking at me, sort of waiting for me to say something amusing. And at the end I've said nothing and I feel that I let them down. But you've got to fight that.
You've got to have the wit to be dull.
AMANPOUR: Boris Johnson, mayor of London, thank you very much.
JOHNSON: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Now Boris Johnson has taken his share of criticism from feminists, what with his rich history of gaffes.
Now another British institution is also facing criticism -- the Bank of England -- because when it issues its new Winston Churchill 5-pound note in 2016, there will only be one woman seen on a U.K. banknote, and that of course would be Queen Elizabeth, perhaps this week better known as Prince George Alexander Louis' great-grandmother.
So the bank announced that as of 2017, a new face will grace the 10- pound note, novelist Jane Austen, the beloved chronicler of 18th century English country manners. Her fans can take pride at this victory over prejudice that the BOE, the Bank of England, had the sensibility to value Jane Austen in cents. And in a moment, could there be a warming of relations between Iran and the West?
Hossein Mousavian worked for President-Elect Rouhani when he headed Iran's nuclear negotiating team. And I'll speak with him when we come back.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program, reporting tonight from London. Europe and the U.S. are locked in a tense standoff with Iran over its nuclear program. But will the inauguration of a new moderate Iranian president next week single at least a thaw?
The office of Britain's former foreign secretary, Jack Straw, confirms to us that Hassan Rouhani has invited him to attend his inauguration. And just listen to what Rouhani himself told the Iranian people right after his surprise victory last month.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HASSAN ROUHANI, IRANIAN PRESIDENT-ELECT (through translator): Your government -- that means a government of prudence and hope -- has as promised will be acting in line with salvaging the country's economy, the revival of morality and constructive interaction with the world. The government will be adopting a moderate policy and will pursue the national goals, accordingly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Rouhani, a former chief nuclear negotiator, is a wealthy (ph) man. He's said to be fluent in several languages including English, which he presumably perfected while getting his doctorate at Glasgow Caledonian University. This video shows Rouhani graduating from the program in 1999.
His key advisers have not been tapped yet, but many suspect that my next guest, Hossein Mousavian, could be one of them. Mousavian knows the president-elect well and worked for him when Rouhani headed Iran's nuclear negotiating team 10 years ago.
And Mousavian made headlines when he famously said that no deal would be reached as long as the West demanded diamonds for peanuts. That is what he said to me about Iran's nuclear program. And for the past eight years, he's been a visiting scholar at Princeton University, and he joins me from there right now.
Welcome back to the program, Mr. Mousavian. And let me start by asking you does the election of President-Elect Rouhani signal a real change or just a change of face?
SEYED HOSSEIN MOUSAVIAN, FORMER MEMBER, IRANIAN NUCLEAR NEGOTIATING TEAM: Definitely. There is also recent presidential election in Iran is a new opportunity for both resolving the Iranian nuclear crisis and trying for a better relation between Tehran and Washington.
AMANPOUR: How will that happen? Already even this week, we've heard Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khomeini, has said publicly that he doesn't trust Washington; he doesn't trust the United States.
What will the president have to do to bring the Supreme Leader on board as he tries what he calls a new moderate engagement and interaction with the West?
MOUSAVIAN: I believe three measures would be extremely important. The first is what we need positive actions followed by positive words. Since 2009, President Obama has delivered really positive words like engagement but at the same time during his presidency the U.S. has imposed the most draconian sanctions and pressures unilaterally and multilaterally against Iran.
But in (inaudible), in Tehran, President Ahmadinejad delivered very negative rhetoric, slogans, words, but in action he made unprecedented overtures to reach Washington.
The second issue, Christiane, is whether they would be able to manage the domestic situation.
Of course, we have problem with domestic situation in Tehran and in Washington both. But in Tehran, there is a leader, Supreme Leader, is ultimate decision-maker.
But whether we have the same situation in Washington or not, because President Obama has been trying for engagement at the same time since the early days in his office. He has been challenged by Congress passing legislations, sanctions, pressures, calling for coercion and hostilities, animosities.
And the third issue --
AMANPOUR: But Mr. Mosavian --
MOUSAVIAN: -- related to --
AMANPOUR: Go ahead.
MOUSAVIAN: -- yes?
(CROSSTALK)
MOUSAVIAN: And the third issue is related -- yes. The third issue is related to interferences of the third country, I mean, Iran is not -- does not have problem with third country for a better relation with Washington. But the United States have problem with Israel because Israel is making pressure and -- on Washington. And some even regional Arab countries, ally of the U.S.
Therefore, controlling the foreign interferences on Tehran-Washington relations --
AMANPOUR: All right. Mr. Mousavian?
MOUSAVIAN: -- important.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you this, though, the President of the United States continues to say that there is time for diplomacy.
Mr. Mousavian has -- Mr. Rouhani -- sorry -- has been calling and talking about healing.
Let me play you this little bit of what he said at a press conference about the relationship with the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROUHANI (through translator): A relation between Iran and the U.S. is a complicated and typical issues. Nothing easy. But you know, this has -- this has been a very old wound that is there. So we need to think of somehow healing this injury.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Mr. Mousavian, what can Mr. Rouhani as president do to heal?
And do you think that there could be some kind of an interim arrangement, an interim deal, an interim solution to the nuclear issue between both sides?
MOUSAVIAN: I firmly believe there is a great chance, Christiane, because I know very well what the P5+1, they want. They want sets of measures on transparency. The second they want sets of measures on break or (ph) capability. They want to assure that there will no breakout in Iranian nuclear program.
And Iranians also in return, they are asking for two issues. One is recognition of the legitimate rights of Iran under non-proliferation treaty NPT for enrichment like any other member, and second, lifting the sanctions.
Now is the time to put these two demands of two major demands of the West and the P5+1 and two major demands of the Iranians in one package to be implemented step by step with proper reciprocations.
AMANPOUR: Well, we'll be very, very closely watching and we will see whether there is actually the possibility of a breakthrough after the inauguration of President Rouhani.
Mr. Mousavian, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
And of course, the great challenge of the Middle East is that everything is connected, from Iran to Syria to Egypt. Events in one country impact even distant neighbors. That is why all eyes across the region will be focused on Egypt tomorrow, where the military chief has made a public call for mass demonstrations to support the recent move to topple the president and shape Egypt's destiny.
I'll speak with CNN's Ben Wedeman, live from Cairo, when we return.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program, reporting tonight live from the London Eye on the banks of the River Thames. As the city settles down after the birth of a boy who will one day be king of this land, in the land of the pharaohs -- Egypt that is -- leadership is in an uncertain transition.
Mohammed Morsy has not been seen since he was toppled by the military July 3rd, and the military chief has now called for mass demonstrations on Friday as a show of public support. While the U.S. is right now showing its lack of support, deciding not to deliver four fighter planes.
CNN's senior international correspondent, Ben Wedeman, is in Cairo, joins me now live.
Ben, what do you expect will happen in Cairo tomorrow with these mass demonstrations called?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly what we do know, Christiane, is that there will be massive demonstrations in Tahrir Square behind me in support of the defense minister Abdul Fatah al-Sisi, also outside the Etihadia Palace.
But in addition to that, the supporters of the deposed president, Mohammed Morsy, will also be holding what they are calling a million-man march, which is, quote, "to topple the coup d'etat, as they call it. And they will be marching from 34 different mosques in Cairo, going to Rabaah al-Adawiya, which is where they've been having this open-ended sit-in.
So there are going to be a lot of people in the street. And of course the worry is that with so many people from two very opposing camps, there's a very good chance that there could be violence yet again in Cairo tomorrow, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Ben, it's pretty unusual for the military to call people out onto the streets. And obviously there's a big sort of struggle going on for the right to determine Egypt's destiny.
What actually is the interim government doing right now in terms of making progress or not on implementing the return to democracy?
WEDEMAN: Well, certainly they are talking about a few months down the line beginning to draft a new constitution, hold parliamentary elections and eventually presidential elections.
The one element that's really missing in the equation at the moment is any sort of dialogue whatsoever between the interim government and those factions, those groups, parties and coalitions that support the military in this case and the Muslim Brotherhood and their supporters.
And in the absence of that, this tension, which is very palpable on the streets of Cairo, is going to continue and that tension has only been increased by Defense Minister Sisi's call for people to come out into the streets of Egypt to give him a mandate, in his words, to fight terrorism and violence.
AMANPOUR: Ben, obviously, there's such a huge appetite for secular democracy amongst a huge population in Egypt. But let's not forget, as you say, that you know, the various Islamist parties want something like 75 percent of the vote in the last go-around.
I guess the question is, if they're excluded, what kind of effect does this have on national reconciliation, on the ability to move forward as a country united and also how does it affect the rest of the Arab Spring countries? There's turmoil in Tunisia as well.
WEDEMAN: And certainly this, the turmoil in Tunisia and here and elsewhere really does reflect this great split between those who believe in religion as being part of politics and those who have a somewhat more secular approach.
And really, there are other political parties, Islamist political parties, like the Nour party, the Salafis, who are participating in the government indirectly at the moment. But certainly excluding the Muslim Brotherhood really is a recipe for trouble.
AMANPOUR: Ben Wedeman, thanks; always good to get your insight. And we'll be watching tomorrow. That is it for tonight's program. Meantime, you can always follow me on Twitter @CAmanpour. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.
END
