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Amanpour

US Tries to Get Israeli-Palestinian Peace Talks Restarted

Aired July 26, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone, I'm Christiane Amanpour and welcome to the special weekend edition of our program, where we take another look at the big stories that we covered this week.

Now I'm reporting from London where the world welcomed the newest member of the British royal family on Monday, George Alexander Louis. Could the baby, known as His Royal Highness Prince George of Cambridge, actually grow up in a world where there's peace between Israelis and Palestinians?

The last time there was any real progress on that front came well before Prince George's father, William, was even born. It was 1979 when we saw this handshake on the White House lawn between Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin.

They were joined by the US. President Jimmy Carter and they were marking the start of the Camp David Accords, the peace treaty that still remains in force today.

And then there was this handshake in 1993 between PLO leader Yasser Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, along with U.S. President Bill Clinton. They were marking the Oslo Accords, which called for a final settlement of the conflict by 1999.

Well, that final settlement has never happened. And that's exactly what Secretary of State John Kerry is trying to revive now. But it's not exactly happening in leaps and bounds; rather more at a snail's pace. The two sides have agreed to meet to talk about talks, to discuss reviving peace negotiations.

And even if an agreement is reached, both Israeli and Palestinian leaders say the deal must go to a referendum.

As President Bill Clinton said back in 1993, every peace has its enemies. And indeed, skepticism is sky-high about this go-around. And the two sides are still waiting for Washington's formal invitation to get started.

I spoke with negotiators from each side of the table. Hanan Ashrawi is a member of the PLO's Executive Council, and she was a senior delegate to the Madrid peace talks in 1991. And we'll hear the Palestinian perspective from her later on in the programs.

But first, Israeli Justice Minister Tzipi Livni will lead her side in negotiations. I managed to speak with her from Jerusalem just before a U.S. imposed gag order went into effect on both parties.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Minister Tzipi Livni, thank you very much for joining me. Welcome to the program.

TZIPI LIVNI, ISRAELI JUSTICE MINISTER AND MINISTER RESPONSIBLE FOR NEGOTIATING WITH THE PALESTINIANS: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: So clarify for us: are you on your way to Washington?

Are these talks about talks actually going to happen this week?

LIVNI: Well, I'm here in Jerusalem, but I truly hope that in the next few days we can meet with the Palestinians -- and of course by the invitation of Secretary Kerry, who really was amazing here, bridged gaps.

And I truly hope that our dream and aspiration to negotiating in order to end the conflict can be translated into real meetings, real dialogue and hopefully, in the end, ending of conflict.

AMANPOUR: But I hear that Prime Minister Netanyahu needs to have the whole cabinet approve this process.

Has that happened yet?

LIVNI: No, not yet. Listen, it's not a secret that in Israel we have different opinions. And also within the cabinet, within the government we have parties that it's more problematic for them to support the process.

But yet I hope and I do believe that we can have the majority in the Israeli government to support this.

I believe that this is in the interest of Israel but, of course, we have different opinions in the Israeli cabinet.

AMANPOUR: Obviously the Israeli position is that there must be no preconditions. I assume you're still staying with that position.

And I want to ask you what your reaction is to some on the Palestinian side, who say that there must be at least an agreement on the '67 borders as a basis of negotiation before this process starts.

LIVNI: Christiane, you know the last thing that I want to do now is to do something that both of us, so both sides agreed with Secretary Kerry. I'm not going to relate publicly to the terms of the understanding that we reached with the United States and the United States with the Palestinians and vice versa.

The whole idea is that to build trust and confidence and not to enter into this blame game that we used to have in the last years.

AMANPOUR: Well, let's talk, then, a little bit about what might come up. Obviously there's so many issues. The idea of settlement activity, you know obviously that the E.U., the European Union, has passed measures that say there can be no funding for any activities in Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank.

That has obviously put some pressure on Israel.

Is that one of the reasons why you're coming to the table or why you think now is the time -- the time is right?

Why do you think --

(CROSSTALK)

LIVNI: No.

AMANPOUR: -- the time is right to come to the table now?

LIVNI: I believe that the time was right. Also years ago, I support deeply not only the idea of negotiations, but the idea of the lead to end the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. This is an Israeli interest. It's not a favor to the Palestinians nor to the E.U. and not even to the President of the United States.

It is our own interest. And this is the reason that the idea of relaunching the negotiation is not because of the pressure or because of a favor or doing something to -- for the sake of others.

It is the interest of Israel. I -- talking about the E.U., the good news is what they announced today. And this is that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. So having the new release on the new instructions to the E.U., to the organization, is something that they published last week.

But it's going to be implemented just in few months from now. So we are going to work with the -- with the E.U. in order to change this, because it doesn't contribute to negotiations because the future of the Israeli borders and the Palestinian borders need to be agreed in the negotiations room and not by the E.U.

AMANPOUR: What about the fact that Prime Minister Netanyahu, I assume, wants a better relationship with the United States?

Is this one reason to go to talks, to have a better relationship with the Obama administration in order to have, you know, more sort of cordial entente on other issues, such as Iran or other such things down the road?

LIVNI: You know something, it's not only the interest of the -- of Israel and the relations with the United States, which are very important to us in Israel from a strategic point of view. It's not just a matter of same values and interests. But it is really a relationship that's important for us to keep.

But you can see that minutes after Secretary Kerry announced about the invitation and that both sides agreed to come and negotiate, those that opposed this declaration, it was Hamas in the Palestinian Authority.

Those that are not fighting for the creation of a new state, but they are fighting against the existence of the state of Israel, Iran, jihadist Islamists.

So basically by relaunching the negotiations, we can reform different groups in this region; on one hand we have the extremists, we have Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas.

And on the other we have group of pragmatics that now by relaunching the negotiations in the support, with the support of the Arab League, we can have the same camp of moderates acting against those that are using terror and are not accepting not only the right of Israel to exist, but they are fighting the values and the interests that the United States represents in the region.

So, yes, it's a mutual goal. It's the same interests between Israel and the United States. But it's more than that.

AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you about your next-door neighbor, Egypt, with whom you do have a peace treaty.

How has the change of government there, the toppling of the elected president, Mohammed Morsy, and now this interim government heavily influenced by the military, how does that affect the dynamic of your relations with Egypt and on this peace process if it ever gets underway?

LIVNI: You know, the good news is that having peace between Israel and Egypt is something that since we have this for so many years, any changes until now in the Egyptian presidency and government doesn't affect the peace treaty because they understand this well that this is their own interest.

And the last thing that I want as an Israeli or as an Israeli minister, I truly don't want to relate to the internal situation in Egypt or Syria or other of our neighbors that internally are in terms of changes and troubles and all this stuff because I don't want the extremists there or elsewhere using any statement coming from Israel in order to say, you see? Israel is involved in the internal situation in Egypt.

So the wise thing to do is to be silent now.

AMANPOUR: And you're being very silent, very, very professionally.

Tzipi Livni, thank you very much indeed for joining me.

(LAUGHTER)

LIVNI: Thank you. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And coming up, the Palestinian view. Is there a glimmer of a possibility that the Middle East's deepest wound has a chance of healing? I'll speak with Hanan Ashrawi, a long-time member of the peace camp and the PLO's Executive Council. That's when we return.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the special weekend edition of our program, and I'm reporting from London all this week, where I managed to speak to two major players on each side of the long stalled Middle East peace negotiations.

They're showing new signs of life now, thanks to some old-fashioned shuttle diplomacy by the U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry. We've just heard the Israeli perspective from their lead negotiator, Justice Minister Tzipi Livni.

Now to Hanan Ashrawi, a long-time Palestinian peace negotiator and a senior member of the PLO's Executive Council. She joined me this week from Ramallah on the West Bank.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

It's good to be with you, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: So all eyes are on whether this peace process is going to get restarted after such a long hiatus. Now, the Arab League has endorsed U.S. Secretary of State Kerry's proposals.

Will the Palestinians go to these preliminary talks?

ASHRAWI: Well, these preliminary talks, first of all, are to establish the foundation, the basis for negotiations. And we are waiting now for the invitation from Secretary Kerry on the basis of what he is going to receive in terms of Israeli commitments.

We believe that these talks, in order to succeed, have to have certain requirements that are consistent with international law and with the integrity of peace itself as an objective rather than the process, as an end unto itself.

So I think with the Arab League acceptance, also with the initial acceptance by President Mahmoud Abbas and the groundwork that was done with Secretary Kerry, as soon as we get the assurances that are needed, I'm sure there will be preliminary talks in Washington.

AMANPOUR: Hanan, that sounds suspiciously like laying conditions. And I think everybody pretty much understands that conditions and preconditions are a non-starter.

Are you laying conditions?

Is that what the Palestinian side is going to do?

ASHRAWI: No. You see this term "conditions" has been used constantly to discredit the Palestinians as though we're doing something wrong.

Basically what we're saying is the peace process has a certain foundation and it has a basis, which was agreed upon years ago, as you know. We started in 1991. We didn't start -- we didn't go on a shipping - - on a fishing expedition or a shot in the dark. We were -- we had clear- cut criteria, 242, 338, Land for Peace, '67 boundaries.

We cannot reinvent the wheel every time a new government comes and wants to negate the agreed upon basis of negotiations.

Also, if you sign agreements, you have to honor them. If you sign agreements to release prisoners, you cannot renege on them. Or if you sign agreements to have further redeployments, you cannot say, I'm sorry, I changed my mind.

Why else would we negotiate if there are signed agreements that are not honored?

Twenty-two years in which settlements quadrupled is certainly not a clear precedent to act upon.

We really need, now, to move fast with genuine commitment, not with P.R. statements and declarations of intent, but with serious actions on the ground that are positive and constructive.

AMANPOUR: Hanan, the EU has talked about stiff measures against Israel for its settlement-building activity, cutting off funding for any activities in those settlements, for instance.

By the same token, people say the EU could cut off and stop paying --

(CROSSTALK)

ASHRAWI: Yes.

AMANPOUR: -- for the Palestinian Authority if there don't seem to be progress in these talks and toward serious negotiations.

Now, one of these issues -- and you talk about public opinion -- has always been the idea of the right of return.

And my question to you, again, has to be, will the Palestinians move beyond this notion of all or nothing, that, you know, telling the people of Palestine, that, yes, all of the 4 million or more, exiled refugee Palestinians will be able to come back and reclaim their land inside what's today Israel.

I mean, surely everybody knows that is a non-starter and it's time for you all, the politicians, to be honest with your people about this.

ASHRAWI: Well, first of all, when we talk about the Europeans, settlement activities are illegal. Annexing and stealing land which is not your own is illegal. The Europeans have been telling the Israelis, stop doing this, repeatedly, for years. This is illegal, this is counter- productive, this destroys the chances of peace. And Israel has refused.

So what Europe is doing, belatedly -- we've been talking about this since the 1970s -- is putting its money where its mouth is, telling Israel there is a price to be paid.

For the first time, Israel is feeling a slight accountability. And that's why it's smarting. It's reacting hysterically, because it has been used to acting above the law and not receiving any kind of constraint or accountability or curbs on its behavior. So that's one thing.

That's quite different from telling the Palestinians, if you do not comply with what we tell you in terms of the peace process, we will cut off funding. That smacks of blackmail.

So to tell us, you know, you have to do what we tell you now or we'll cut off funding is not at all like telling Israel you are violating the law, you are stealing other people's land and this occupation has to be costly and accountable.

Two, on the issue of the right of return, now, when you enter negotiations, you do not enter by relinquishing your people's rights and destroying your credibility with your own people. These are rights that are enshrined in international law.

We have specific U.N. resolutions, particularly 194, dealing with the Palestinian refugees' right of return. We have the Arab initiative that, in a sense, places the whole issue of refugees in a regional context, which is important, because most of the Palestinian refugees are in neighboring Arab countries.

This is a source of instability. It's a source of tremendous pain throughout the region. And this needs to be resolved in a just and legal manner.

So the Arab Peace Initiative talks about a just and agreed-upon solution to the Palestinian refugee question, we are not going to say we will start negotiations by violating international law, relinquishing the rights of the refugees. We have already given up 78 percent of historical Palestine, on which Israel is to be -- or was established.

That is a major and painful compromise. But we cannot constantly be pushed to accommodate facts that Israel has created or to relinquish rights and violate the law a priori in order to demonstrate that we are serious.

I know we are the victims and I know we are the weaker party, but we are not here addressing power politics. We are addressing a just and legal solution that would have the -- that can lay claim to permanence. This is what we need.

AMANPOUR: Hanan, of course, a just solution is what the international community requires in this regard.

But the truth of the matter is that it's always been a stumbling point --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- because the Palestinians are told that they can expect to come back to their homes.

I just want to ask you again, is this, again, going to be a stumbling point?

Because I don't think anybody believes that that's going to happen and many people believe that that is simply a code for wiping out Israel in terms of it being a Jewish state.

Is it not time to be honest with the Palestinian exiles in order to get the state that you so desperately want?

ASHRAWI: The refugee question is part and parcel of this whole total integrated, interconnected agreement. And it has to take place along a triple-tiered approach: one, recognition of the right and Israel's recognition and admission of its culpability; two, assuring them that their narrative is right and international law would apply to them; three, giving them the options.

The key term here is the Palestinian refugees' right to choose also. If they do not have the right to choose, if they are told, you're all going back or none of you are going back, then this means that you have deprived them of the right to choose.

They should have, because U.N. Resolution 194 talks about the right to return and/or get compensation. And some people ask for restitution.

Let's see where that goes in negotiations, once there is progress, once the framework is agreed to, once the Arab Peace Initiative is recognized. All these things, I'm sure, can be solved if there is the proper will, determination and commitment.

AMANPOUR: Hanan Ashrawi, we thank you very much for joining me.

ASHRAWI: You're most welcome.

It's my pleasure.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: I spoke earlier with Hanan Ashrawi about the tremendous pain and instability that Palestinians, including children, have experienced growing up as refugees over the last many decades.

Elsewhere in the region, right now in Syria, the worst humanitarian crisis is unfolding since Rwanda 20 years ago, and it's happening before our very eyes. More than 600,000 Syrian refugees are seeking shelter in neighboring Lebanon alone. And it's a major burden on that country and it's creating a backlash against these desperate and homeless Syrians.

So will this new generation be forced to grow up, also exiled and adrift? CNN's Mohammed Jamjoom reports from Lebanon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMMED JAMJOOM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He escaped the war, but life's no happier now for Omar.

"I work so I can bring money for my family," he says. School's out of the question. So this 8-year-old Syrian refugee's new life consists of gathering eggs from a nearby farm. Harder still was the trauma he most recently went through.

"They hit us," he tells me timidly, describing how Lebanese boys his age beat him up.

"They said to me," he adds, embarrassed and close to tears, "'Damn every Syrian.' "

It's a different kind of brutality Omar now faces. In Lebanon's windswept Bekaa Valley, the harsh environment is reflected in the weary faces of kids all around. Their eyes look far older than they do. No childhood spark to be seen, smiles few and far between.

In makeshift refugee camps like this one, the overwhelming feeling is sadness. The Syrians I've spoken with today tell me they can't believe their lives have come to this, that they're not just destitute, they're also discriminated against.

"Some people say to me, 'God bless Bashar al-Assad's hands,' " Bushra tells me, "'the hands that slaughtered you all -- you deserve worse.' "

She says it's told as a joke, but she and her family aren't laughing.

Tensions have worsened as some Lebanese people have even been displaced. Take Taha's family. They say their landlord replaced them with a recently arrived Syrian family willing to pay double the rent.

Their boy's anger, clear as day.

"The Syrians took our world away from us," he says. "There's nothing left for us."

His father's outrage, however, is reserved for others.

"We're not against Syrians," he tells me. "We have to help the refugees, but our government has to take care of us, too.

"My son here, now he has to work, too -- it's awful."

His oldest son just sits and stares, hopelessness and exhaustion apparent. He isn't just drained. Like so many Syrian children, he's also desperate -- Mohammed Jamjoom, CNN, Bekaa Valley, Lebanon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Something to think about tonight. And that's it for our program. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.

END