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Amanpour

Interview with Egypt's Interim Prime Minister; Interview with Zimbabwe's Ambassador to the US

Aired July 29, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

HALA GORANI, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Good evening, everyone, welcome to the program. I'm Hala Gorani, sitting in today for Christiane Amanpour.

The big question: what is next for Egypt? With President Mohammed Morsy out of office and in custody, that is the burning question. It may all soon come to a head. Dozens of Morsy supporters were killed in bloody clashes with security forces over the weekend.

Now the interim government may force a showdown, a decisive decision, as they call it, threatening to clear thousands of pro-Morsy demonstrators from the East Cairo neighborhood they've occupied since his removal on July 3rd.

The interim president, Adly Mansour, is warning Egyptians to prepare for a possible state of emergency -- a loaded term, of course, given that the former president, Hosni Mubarak, kept the country under emergency rule for three decades.

So who is in charge of Egypt? The military or the civilian interim leaders? Are security forces targeting the Islamist opposition? Or are they doing what they need to do to keep Egypt safe?

And could a major confrontation with pro-Morsy supporters drive the Muslim Brotherhood out of the democratic process and back into the underground?

In a moment, I'll bring you my exclusive interview with Hazem el- Beblawi, Egypt's interim prime minister, responsible for guiding the country to a new constitution and new presidential elections eventually.

But first, Reza Sayah has been covering all the latest developments and he joins me now from Cairo.

Reza, I understand there's been more violence in Egypt.

REZA SAYAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There has been some violence in Egypt, some clashes in Cairo, but they may not be linked to the current political conflict. We're working to verify that. But the big news today, the announcement by the spokesperson for the interim president, Adly Mansour, that at this point, there are no plans to declare a state of emergency.

That's significant because over the weekend, there was growing speculation and concern that perhaps this interim government was getting ready to declare a state of emergency in preparation for a potential operation, a crackdown against the demonstrations, against supporters of the ousted president, Mohammed Morsy.

Again, the president's office saying that will not happen and we should point out that the spokesperson for the president did acknowledge that the president has transferred the power to declare a state of emergency to the prime minister. So technically, this government is a step closer to a state of emergency.

But the announcement that it's not happening for now seems to ease the anxiety a little bit. But, again, all sorts of other signs that this conflict is inching closer to a very dangerous situation. The biggest sign, of course, the rising death toll: more than 70 people killed over the weekend in what was the deadliest clashes dating back to January 2011 revolution, Hala.

GORANI: All right, Reza Sayah with the very latest from Cairo.

Now I was telling you about this exclusive interview with the interim prime minister of Egypt, Hazem el-Beblawi. He's a respected economist; he was named prime minister of the interim government by the president, Adly Mansour.

I spoke with him exclusively from Cairo earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: Let me just ask you first this question: what is happening in Egypt today?

Is the country on the brink of some sort of civil conflict?

HAZEM EL-BEBLAWI, EGYPTIAN INTERIM PRIME MINISTER: No, I don't think so. The situation is tense, of course. No one can dispute that we have a very difficult situation.

Of course on Friday, there was a major manifestation all over the country. And until midnight I would think that the people were very happy and they were elated and there was a sense of carnival; everyone was happy.

After 1 o'clock in the morning, happened a clash, a serious one; the manifestation -- the manifestants (ph) who are in either way raballah (ph), the way which is the place where most of the Muslim brothers are recovering. They took to the street in order to go to the highway and to barricade and to cut the traffic.

Then the police stood and tried to divert -- to divert them. And they wented (sic) not back to their place, but they wanted to occupy part of the highways.

And then there started a clash, a very serious one, very bad. Anyone who was mixing from both sides, my information that the police tried to keep within the regration (ph), which they are not allowed to use any fire, only tear gas.

But of course, I saw afterwards some pictures, which is -- show that there was a total confusion.

GORANI: I want to ask you about what some of the witnesses on the ground said about that particular demonstration and these tragic deaths.

Human Rights Watch said most of the protesters were shot in the head and the neck and the chest; witnesses on the ground said that these demonstrators that were pro-Mohammed Morsy were targeted.

Do you think that the military and the police went overboard here, that they were excessive?

EL-BEBLAWI: I am not sure. But I am sure that there is an instruction I was told by the minister, that they took the instruction very seriously. But there is definitely a confusion in situation.

But we will undertake an investigation to make sure that there is no abuse. But what surprises me, if someone wants to make his voices aloud, how come they take the street after 1 o'clock in the morning?

GORANI: This political process going forward, with the president, the deposed president, Mohammed Morsy, interrogated, Muslim Brotherhood leaders jailed.

Is the process going forward going to include the Muslim Brotherhood?

After all, like them or not, their representative was elected president.

EL-BEBLAWI: There is no doubt about this. We are against any exclusion. We think that this country cannot stand without everyone taking his place, without everyone expressing his opinion. It will be a catastrophe if we exclude someone.

And it's not only someone. It's a good percentage, not a majority, a small, but still they have the right. We want them to participate. But peacefully.

GORANI: So going forward, so, sir, going forward, is the Muslim Brotherhood going to be banned again, just like it was under Hosni Mubarak?

Or will it be allowed to exist?

And, secondly, where is Mohammed Morsy?

EL-BEBLAWI: Yes. As a matter of fact, we must make the difference between two things. A political party, we don't have any political party which mix religion with politics. Politics is politics.

And we would like to be -- this is a country which respects religion conviction for everyone equally. We don't interfere. But mixing politics with religion, giving the political decision a religious covering, we think this is very bad for democracy.

GORANI: So the Muslim Brotherhood, as a group, will not be banned again, if I understand you correctly.

The big question now is, where is Mohammed Morsy?

There was an AP report -- there was an AP report that he's in prison, being interrogated, sometimes five straight hours.

Is that the case?

EL-BEBLAWI: Mohammed Morsy was kept to save his life. But I understand now that the European Commission sent their commissioner, Lady Ashton, which -- who is in Cairo now, and I understand that she will go to see him.

As a matter of fact, we sent two people from one of two people, activists in the human rights movement, and they wanted to see him; he refused to see them, to see them. But they saw one of his fellows. And he assured them that he is receiving generous treatment, a very kind one and very respectful.

So there is no complaint on this regard.

GORANI: So going forward, I suppose the question is going to be in terms of these Muslim Brotherhood protests. They're vowing to continue these sit-ins.

Will they be allowed?

EL-BEBLAWI: Protesting is accepted, provided it is according to the law.

GORANI: And if not, if they do not go through proper channels, what happens?

EL-BEBLAWI: I think we will take the thing seriously with full respect of human rights, with full respect of our laws. We will punish anyone in the government or outside who break the law.

GORANI: And one last question about the future of the country, I mean, there are reports that the military was listening in on Mohammed Morsy's phone calls, that essentially they were in charge the whole time and that this revolution happened in Egypt and in the end we're back to the days, perhaps, of Hosni Mubarak.

What does the future look like for Egypt, for it to truly transition to a pluralistic democracy that represents all of its citizens?

EL-BEBLAWI: The plan we have put a road map where we will put our constitution and this constitution will be put to the people for referendum and then we will have an election.

And afterwards -- and this transitional government is only to prepare the ground for an acceptable constitution, which will have consensus. And not only have consensus, which will be in conformity with the universal human rights, with the accepted rules of democracy in the world all over.

And then we will have election and we will make sure that it will be a free election.

We will ask observers from all over the countries, from the United Nations, from others, to inspect, to make sure and hopefully we will end this according to the -- to the road map in the coming six or eight months, something in less than a year, I hope.

GORANI: And I -- and many Egyptians hope so as well. And they are wondering who's really in charge.

Are you, the government, in charge?

Or is the military in charge right now?

Who is really calling the shots in Egypt?

EL-BEBLAWI: As far as I am concerned, I feel very much in charge with my council of ministers. And I haven't seen any indication or any sign from anyone to tell me what to be done.

We discuss; we have a large discussion in the cabinet, but only -- but also with other political activists. We would like to hear, we put our ideas to the people to discuss. But the moment I feel that the civilian government is besieged, I will put my resignation.

GORANI: Thank you very much, Mr. Hazem el-Beblawi, the interim prime minister of Egypt, for joining us today on CNN. Really appreciate taking the time with us today.

EL-BEBLAWI: Thank you very much. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: A tense situation at a difficult time for the country. We'll keep our eye on it. And after a break, while Egypt's experiment in democracy couldn't survive one election, in the African nation of Zimbabwe, voters have been going to the polls since 1980 to choose their leader.

Of course, in those 33 years, the eventual outcome has always been the same. This week at the age of 89, President Robert Mugabe faces another challenge to his absolute authority. Will it be an encore or his swan song when we come back.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GORANI: Welcome back to the program. I'm Hala Gorani, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.

After 33 years in power, is time finally up for Zimbabwe's strongman, Robert Mugabe? Presidential elections are in just two days; the 89-year- old ruler is facing off once again against rival Morgan Tsvangirai.

You'll remember Morgan Tsvangirai of course; he's the man who almost beat Mugabe in the 2008 elections, but after much chaos and violence, he was forced into a tense power-sharing agreement with the president, though it's questionable how much power he has.

Mugabe opponents complain of vote rigging, a hurried timetable and unfair media coverage. President Mugabe says those claims are nonsense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT MUGABE, PRESIDENT, ZIMBABWE: I have no answer to it except to tell them it was (inaudible) free, it is going to be free and fair. We are not forcing anyone to vote this way or that way. They will vote the way they desire.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: There's also concern that violence may break out if the vote doesn't go the way Mugabe desires.

Machivenyika Mapuranga is Zimbabwe's ambassador to the United States and he joins me now live from Washington.

Thanks for being with us, sir.

MACHIVENYIKA MAPURANGA, ZIMBABWE AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: You're welcome.

GORANI: So if Mr. Mugabe loses this election, will he go peacefully?

MAPURANGA: Absolutely. He has said it. He's a man of honor. And he's a man of his word. He's said it and there is no doubt that he will go peacefully.

You remember in the last election in 2008, he could not win an outright majority in the first round. And he agreed to go into a run-up with Mr. Morgan Tsvangirai.

GORANI: And -- yes, I was going to say -- sorry to jump in -- during that period, you had killings of opposition members. And this is something that created a very tense situation, accusations of vote rigging, of irregularities, that President Mugabe does not want to step down and he's holding onto power undemocratically.

Is that untrue?

MAPURANGA: Well, this was not by the Western standards. That was the narrative. But if you listened to what Africa was saying, Africa was saying that there was violence on both sides. And even today the MTC (ph) will tell you that there was indeed violence on both sides, but they claimed that there was more violence by the ZANU-PF party of the president. But there was mutual violence.

GORANI: MDC being the party of the opun (ph) and Morgan Tsvangirai.

As human rights learns Zimbabwe Beatrice Mtetwa was detained. Christiane Amanpour spoke to her about a month ago. I want you to listen to what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEATRICE MTETWA, HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER: Certainly in the last nine months we've seen a lot of civil society activists being arrested. I also believe that my arrest is part of that crackdown, because they want as few human rights lawyers to be out there during the election period as they can manage to stop.

So clearly there has been a crackdown and it is directly connected to the elections.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Why is Zimbabwe, why is Zimbabwe -- why is the Zimbabwean government arresting human rights lawyers?

MAPURANGA: Well, as far as I know, people are not arrested unless there is a prima facie case against them.

Because they are human rights activists does not make them above the law. Zimbabwe implements the rule of law. And it may interest you to know that on several occasions, people who were arrested were found not guilty by the courts, because we have an independent judiciary system.

So they may be arrested by the police, but in most cases, you find that they are discharged by the courts because of this independent judiciary.

GORANI: Yet you're the Zimbabwean ambassador to the United States and the U.S. is saying it is "deeply concerned," quote-unquote, about the lack of transparency and the preparations to these elections. Your president, President Mugabe, said it must be absolutely insane to criticize Zimbabwe's election process.

So why is it insane to criticize a process that so many say is not transparent and unfair?

MAPURANGA: There are not many. Those who say the elections are not transparent are the same people who imposed sanctions on Zimbabwe, to ruin its economy, so that the people rise against the president and the ruling party, ZANU-PF.

So these claims are quite in line with their past behavior, their past actions and their present actions. The -- as we speak now, we have observers from the African Union; we have observers from the regional community, SADC (ph) as well as other regional communities, such as komesa (ph) and maybe ECOWAS and so forth. And none of them have said that these elections are not transparent.

(CROSSTALK)

GORANI: Well, in fact --

MAPURANGA: (Inaudible) --

GORANI: -- if I can jump in, one has said that the last -- that the - - first of all, that the electoral roll has not been put out. And also one NGO said that the last roll had a million dead people on it; people who went abroad and 100,000 people over the age of 100.

How is that transparent?

MAPURANGA: Well, you're talking about NGOs. In fact, all these NGOs that have proliferated in Zimbabwe are under the pay of the State Department and the British. They are the ones who fund them because the policy so far has been that of regime change.

And they do this by organizing civil society organizations, paying them and even bringing them to the State Department to give them awards for bravery --

GORANI: So if this is all -- I just want to get this question in. If this is all a vast conspiracy by Western countries and -- is what you're implying there -- why (inaudible).

MAPURANGA: (Inaudible).

GORANI: Right. But then why isn't the electoral roll put out, then, in Zimbabwe?

What -- where is it?

MAPURANGA: Well, I, you know, they are technical constraints. And technical constraints do not hurt one party. They hurt all parties in contention. Now this is not reading by any stretch of the imagination if the Zimbabwe electoral commission has not yet done this or done that. It's going to affect everybody across the spectrum, all the political parties.

GORANI: But all the state television is broadcasting practically 100 percent favorable coverage to President Mugabe.

MAPURANGA: Oh, no. In fact, I've just come back four months ago from Zimbabwe and I know that for sure the state media does not champion the interests of a given political party. They -- what they do is they -- as the Americans do, they champion the values, the patriotic values of the country.

And so if there is a party which is not -- which feels offended when Zimbabwe is celebrating its heroes, its liberation fighters, so what kind of a party is that? It's not a patriotic party.

GORANI: Ambassador Mapuranga, thank you very much for joining us a couple days away from presidential elections in your country, the U.S. -- the Zimbabwean ambassador to the United States.

Thank you.

MAPURANGA: You're welcome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: And as part of his reelection campaign, President Mugabe has accused Western nations of forcing Zimbabwe and other African countries to decriminalize homosexuality in exchange for foreign aid.

But today, 30,000 feet above the homophobia and fearmongering, another world leader, Pope Francis, sent a very different and possibly groundbreaking message to gays in the priesthood, casting no stones, when we come back.

We'll be right back.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GORANI: And a final thought tonight, Zimbabwe is one of 38 African countries where being gay is still a crime. In fact, President Robert Mugabe, speaking at a campaign rally last week, repeated his claim that homosexuals are, quote, "worse than pigs and dogs."

This time, he went even further, suggesting a dire punishment, quote, "If you take men and lock them in a house for five years and tell them to come up with two children and they fail to do that, then we will chop off their heads," end quote.

How's that for a campaign promise?

But now imagine a world where another leader may have said something even more shocking in just a few extraordinary words.

Pope Francis was flying home to Rome after his first foreign trip, a triumphant visit to Brazil, where he was cheered by millions. But in the quiet of the cabin, the new pope, who isn't afraid of creating his own share of turbulence, spoke candidly to reporters on a wide range of issues facing the church, including the previously untouchable subject of gays in the priesthood. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCIS (through translator): If a person is gay and accepts the Lord and has goodwill, who am I to judge them?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: With those simple words, the pope marked a pretty stunning departure from Vatican attitudes of the past and sent a message of compassion, possibly even reconciliation.

That's it for tonight's program. Meantime, you can always contact us on our website, amanpour.com, and me on Twitter, @HalaGorani. Thank you for watching and goodbye from New York.

END