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Amanpour

War Zone In Cairo; Egyptian History Repeats Itself

Aired August 14, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

HALA GORANI, CNN GUEST HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Hala Gorani, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour tonight.

Parts of Egypt, the Arab world's most populous country, are looking like war zones today. The violence began Wednesday when security forces in Cairo stormed two massive makeshift camps filled with supporters of the deposed president, Mohammed Morsy.

They bulldozed tents and forcibly removed hundreds of protesters. And in just a matter of hours, the relatively peaceful protest sites were devastated by tanks and clouds of tear gas. Police now say they are in control of the two squares.

State television is reporting that at least 149 people have been killed in clashes between Egyptian security forces and those supporters of Mohammed Morsy, but that death toll is expected to increase.

The fighting has spread across the country and reports of angry Morsy supporters torching churches in a number of provinces is particularly troubling.

Mohamed ElBaradei, the Nobel Prize winner and a leader of the liberal opposition said he was stepping down, resigning as interim vice president, saying, "After today, I think reconciliation will come -- but only after we pay a very high price for a long time."

And in a troubling throwback to Egypt's past, the government has declared a month-long state of emergency, a move the U.S. says it strongly opposes. Hosni Mubarak kept Egypt locked under a state of emergency -- you'll remember -- for 31 years.

Meantime, Mohammed Morsy, Egypt's first-ever democratically elected leader, has still not been seen in public since his ouster on July 4th.

CNN's Reza Sayah has been covering events in Cairo since the first hours of the morning and he joins me now.

So, Cairo and Egypt under curfew right now, Reza?

REZA SAYAH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and because of that curfew, Hala, things are eerily quiet in this city. It's 9:00 pm local time; usually this time of night, this city is buzzing with activity, but not the case because of the state of emergency that was declared earlier today by this military backed interim government. Things appear to be calm at that point, but this was an awful day today.

A lot of people who are going to describe what happened today as a massacre and increasingly it's going to be hard to dispute that because of the staggering death toll. According to the interim government, 149 people were killed. The death toll coming from the Muslim Brotherhood much higher.

They're claiming that thousands of people have been killed. And obviously, it's going to be impossible to verify that, at least for now. The bloodshed, the aftermath of brutal crackdown that was launched this morning at 6:30 am of course, over the past several weeks; rumors have been swirling. The interim government had promised a crackdown.

No one really knew when it was going to come. It came this morning and it came with brutal force. According to the government, they say the security force moved in, firing warning shots, calling on people to move with a loudspeaker. The supporters of the ousted president, supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood, they have a completely different story.

They say security forces moved in, guns blazing, firing at protesters. It took about 11 hours for security forces to clear out this sit-in demonstration that had mushroomed over the past six weeks into a town and the cost was a steep one. Personally, we lost count of how many casualties we saw, how many fatalities we saw, just a dark day here in Egypt.

And the implications are going to be significant for post-revolution Egypt and for this young interim government, who has a lot of explaining to do.

Some of that explanation taking place, Hala, within the past hour; the prime minister saying this was justified, that they had delivered warnings and they were obligated to do something, to get rid of what they described as a threat to national security, a description that a lot of people are going to dispute and question, Hala.

GORANI: Reza Sayah, thanks very much, reporting live from Cairo, part of our team of reporters there on the ground, covering this essential story.

Let's get an official perspective now.

We're going to turn to the Egyptian ambassador to the United States, Mohamed Tawfik. He joins me now from Washington, D.C.

Welcome, Ambassador. Now just minutes ago, the U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said, quote, "The path to a political solution is still open."

With the images we saw today in Cairo, how could that still possibly be true?

MOHAMED TAWFIK, EGYPTIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: I think your correspondent just mentioned that the prime minister had made a statement. And he made it clear that Egypt -- the Egyptian government is committed to the road map that we put forward and to the process of reconciliation even though it will take a big effort now.

GORANI: Right. And but, look, Mohamed ElBaradei, a Nobel laureate, interim vice president, even he says I can't just sit here and continue to serve in this interim leadership structure, because it could have been solved differently, hundreds didn't have to die. Do you agree or disagree with that?

TAWFIK: I disagree with that. Dr. ElBaradei has -- is entitled to his personal point of view. I feel that if another alternative had been arrived at, such as postponing this for another week or two or month or two, the casualties would have been higher.

So certainly this is not something we're happy with. Any Egyptian loss of life is something that we mourn. Nevertheless, this was the least bad option that we had in front of us.

GORANI: But Ambassador Tawfik, we're hearing reports one of our colleagues, (inaudible) cameraman was shot, his own producer saying it looked like a sniper shot.

Doesn't it look like the military and security forces were extremely heavy- handed in this?

TAWFIK: Well, first of all, I'm very sorry to hear about that tragic event. Certainly, no, I think it's not an objective assessment to say who was responsible for that. We certainly need some to gather evidence and to reach a conclusion what exactly happened, who shot the shots. We know that some of Dr. Morsy's supporters were heavily armed.

We know that there was exchanges of gunfire. We know that many on the police side were killed. And certainly we mourn everyone who's lost their lives. But we have to move forward. This was necessary, unfortunately. And we have to move forward.

GORANI: How do you move forward when, in the end, like them or not, this party, the Freedom and Justice Party, those Islamists, those political Islam-based parties, do you have some level of legitimacy and popularity in Egypt?

When their leaders are jailed, when their presidents are deposed, how can you then, after that, come out and say but we want an inclusive political process going forward?

Isn't it -- doesn't it ring untrue after all this?

TAWFIK: Well, listen, after today's events, after the attacks on the police stations, the attacks on the churches, after the beheading of policemen, I don't think that the Muslim Brotherhood will have a lot of support in the Egyptian streets.

Nevertheless, an inclusive process is an inclusive process; a political road map is a political road map. And we have to keep the door open, which does not mean that people who have committed crimes will not face justice. It means that it's -- it will be an inclusive process and we will move forward. And Egypt will build its democracy.

GORANI: So now that the military-backed interim leadership is really in charge, have we not returned to the days of Hosni Mubarak, essentially, with generals in charge of provinces and the military imposing states of emergency?

Was this whole revolution for nothing?

TAWFIK: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. The events in Egypt are moved and the locomotive for the political motion in Egypt are the Egyptian people, the Egyptian masses. The Egyptian people is firmly in control and the Egyptian people have made their decision. They want democracy. And the Muslim Brotherhood wasn't giving them democracy.

GORANI: And will you support them? And will you support them if they go back out on the street, if the military doesn't give them democracy?

TAWFIK: The Egyptian people is in charge of Egypt. They have a right to guarantee their own future. It's up to me, to the military, to the Egyptian government to serve the interests of the Egyptian people.

GORANI: Ambassador Mohamed Tawfik, thank you very much for joining us from Washington, D.C., on this, I know, a dark day there for your country. Thank you.

TAWFIK: Thank you.

GORANI: Let's turn now to the reaction from the Muslim Brotherhood. Dr. Abdul Mawgoud Dardery (ph) is a member of the Freedom and Justice Party.

Welcome to the show.

DR. ABDUL MAWGOUD DARDERY, FREEDOM AND JUSTICE PARTY: Thank you. Thank you, Hala, for having me.

GORANI: All right. So we heard of this very high death toll in Rabaa al- Adawiya in particular, but was it the case indeed that there are Muslim Brotherhood and Mohammed Morsy supporters were armed there and that these clashes had such a high death toll because of that?

Let me first send my condolences to the family who lost their loved ones and let me wish a speedy recovery for the thousands of injured Egyptians and let me wish the rest of Egypt their freedom, justice and rule of law.

It's a shame on anyone, including the ambassador, to claim that the peaceful protesters had weapons and sometimes they claim that they had weapons of mass destruction inside the tents. I was there in Ramallah the New Year (ph), the people are peaceful. They've been there for 40 days without an injured -- who would kill himself?

And thousands -- not only that, we heard reports that the field hospital now that the police, the criminal police, officer, the criminal, army officers are burning the hospital. They're burning the body. That is never heard of in the history of Egypt. Those people cannot be Egyptians killing the Egyptian people by the Egyptian army and the Egyptian police force.

(CROSSTALK)

GORANI: Dr. Dardery, I'm sorry to jump in, but the government is saying - - and you heard from the ambassador and we've spoken to and heard from other officials, they're saying we didn't have a choice. You can't just block major streets for weeks and weeks on end, barricade yourself, create mini-cities in the middle of the city.

You can't just do that. The city needs to start functioning again.

DARDERY: Yes, which government are we talking about? The coup government? The government that violated all human rights agreement, that violated the rule of law, that deposed the president, suspended the constitution and removed an elected body? They give lip service to democracy.

Those people, if they want democracy, it is the right of the Egyptian people to protest peacefully. They were powerful protesters. They could have stayed there for weeks and months. They're not damaging anyone; they're not hurting anyone. But that criminal mentality of the coup and of that government, that is trying to serve the interest.

I wonder how the ambassador talk about serving the interest of the Egyptians? Does it mean to kill the Egyptians, to be able to serve their interests? But in spite of this, Hala, we will continue to be powerful. We will continue to have sit-ins. We will continue to be in the streets. We condemn all forms of violence against all Egyptians.

That is not the Egyptian way after January 25th revolution. We want democracy. That's what we all want. We want the freedom and the justice for all Egyptians and the only way to do this is through the ballot box, when Egyptians go and vote, whether it be vote for the Freedom and Justice Party, or vote for any other Egyptian. We would welcome the result of the vote. And that is democracy.

But the unfortunate fact is the corrupt leaders of the army, the corrupt leaders of the police force never got used to democracy. We cannot live with democracy with transparency, where we can be held accountable.

They would like to consider Egypt -- I mean, look at what the military jonder (ph) in doing in Syria, very similar to that, when 100 Syrian were used to be killed in a day. We in Egypt would still grieve, but the nine hours, they killed more than 2,000, injured more than 10,000. And look at what is happening now in the streets, an emergency law --

GORANI: Dr. Abdul Mawgoud Dardery, thank you very much there for joining us, a member of the Freedom and Justice Party, from Luxor -- you're traveling in the United States right now. Thank you for joining us there with your take on things and certainly a different set of numbers, certainly different interpretations of what happened today, based on who you talk to. And we've provided both sides.

We'll be right back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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GORANI: Welcome back to the program. I'm Hala Gorani, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour tonight.

Continuing our coverage of the state of emergency in Egypt, a curfew is now in effect after violent clashes between military forces and pro-Morsy demonstrators.

I want to bring in Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt. Just moments ago, he tweeted that the "Resignation of Mohamed ElBaradei confirms military security forces have taken command in Egypt. I fear repression, confrontations and violence."

ElBaradei served as Egypt's acting vice president since Morsy was ousted in July.

Foreign Minister Bildt, thank you for joining us on the phone from Stockholm. You're known as one candid diplomat. One of the other things you said is I condemn the killings and the violence. The main responsibility is with regime forces.

What do you think should happen in Egypt?

CARL BILDT, SWEDISH FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, what I fear is that Egypt is now going to go into a period of fairly hard repression. The (inaudible) securities (inaudible) decided that they want to clamp down on the Muslim Brotherhood, I think that effectively closes the political option for the foreseeable future.

I think we will see arrests (ph). I think we'll see an upsurge of violence. I think we'll see a period of hard repression. Whether there is the possibility to come back at some point in time to (inaudible), I don't know. I sincerely hope that.

Because otherwise, there's always the risk of sort of different groups turning to violence in a way that we've seen before, not only in Egypt but in other societies. And then (inaudible) that we can see ahead of us, unfortunately.

GORANI: So what do you think should be done to try to stop this?

Do you think Western countries, the U.S., has any role to play in this?

BILDT: I think they did try after July 4th with diplomacy on the spot in Cairo, with different representative, the European Union, U.S., some of the Gulf countries were helpful in opening up a possible path for dialogue between the regime and the Brotherhood. I think that is dead (ph). I fear that is dead as of now.

But it can be resurrected at some point (inaudible) I don't know. But I think we must be clear what has happened. (Inaudible) must not devalue the moral capital that we might have left in condoning or what has been happening today.

This was clearly something that was as (inaudible) avoidable that was still the faint hope of (inaudible) process. Now the country is entering into far more difficult process and (inaudible) I don't know, I don't think anyone else.

GORANI: So when you say it was avoidable, it means essentially it could have been handled differently. And you're saying, if I understand you correctly, that the military reacted very heavy-handedly, that perhaps this was part of a plan, do you think, to be -- to sort of storm these camps and not have much regard for human life?

BILDT: I think there have been different views inside the regime since July 4th. That is also made clear by the resignation of Mr. ElBaradei, because he (inaudible) advocated somewhat more of a political (inaudible). And he said very clearly in his resignation statement that this was avoidable. There was a possibility to do it peacefully.

If (inaudible) disperse a big city then a big demonstration where normally uses water cannon. What we've been seeing here is live firing on a fairly large scale. And we have a very large number of dead people. We don't know how many. But clearly a very large number of them. And it's not because they happen to use great (inaudible) water cannons or tear gas.

They were shot by live ammunition. And we also see violence, by the way, by others. There's been burning of churches and impacts on that, the regime upsurge of violence across Egypt in way we didn't have before this clamp-down started early this morning. And the responsibility for starting the clamp-down early this morning clearly rests with the regime.

GORANI: All right. Well, let's hope that the worst-case scenario doesn't pan out. Thank you very much for joining us, the foreign minister of Sweden, Carl Bildt, on the events -- dramatic events and tragic events in Cairo and across Egypt today.

I want to turn now to Eric Tragar, Egypt analyst for The Washington Institute. He witnessed the ousting of former President Mohammed Morsy first-hand in July and joins me now from Washington, D.C.

So as Carl Bildt says, I fear repression, confrontations and violence.

Do you share his concern?

ERIC TRAGAR, EGYPT ANALYST, THE WASHINGTON INSTITUTE: Absolutely. I really think that today's crackdown could be a game-changer. Look, the military and the Brotherhood are locked in an existential struggle.

But I completely agree with his analysis, frankly, that of Mohamed ElBaradei, that the nature of this crackdown didn't have to happen, that the military backed government could have just left the protests where they were and surrounded them and moved forward with a political process. But now I think that that political process will be overshadowed by persistent violence.

GORANI: And so what is the solution, then? I mean, it seems as though the potential for reconciliation here is almost nil or any kind of election, or any of those promises that have been made, yes?

TRAGAR: Well, I don't that we should have ever expected reconciliation by removing Mohammed Morsy from the presidency, the military was in a permanent struggle with the Brotherhood. And by the same standpoint, the Brotherhood was not likely to participate in any political process after Morsy, because that would mean accepting Morsy's removal.

But certainly right now, we're not only going to have reconciliation, we're going to have persistent and maybe now more widespread civil strife.

GORANI: So here you have a situation where you have really the two biggest forces in Egypt. One is the military -- obviously we know that. The other is the Muslim Brotherhood and Islamist parties. Those two forces are clashing for control of this country, of Egypt.

Which one will win? And is there a third way emerging somewhere?

TRAGAR: You know, I mean, I hate to fall back on a cliche, but I think everybody loses. One thing that we've seen from the military is that it's really not a capable actor; it badly bungled the transition after Mubarak fell in 2011. It's not really even able to control its own borders in the Sinai or its own territory.

So I don't expect to be able to manage this period well, either. And it's really made things worse, I think, by cracking down on the protests in this manner. By the same standpoint, remember that the Muslim Brotherhood, as part of its motto, says that death for the sake of Allah is the highest aspiration. So what we have today is an escalation that really can't end well for anybody.

GORANI: So we have those two forces, as you said, the military that did mismanage terribly the transition. You trust or believe them when the interim government says this is -- we're just holding onto power temporarily. There will be elections and then democracy.

Should we believe that?

TRAGAR: It's hard to know what they really intend. But at the same token, any kind of violence of this type, especially if it continues, will completely overshadow a political transition. I think the dominate story in Egypt moving forward will be these kinds of clashes, which may be more violent and more widespread. And it's just hard to imagine elections or anything like that really taking place in this kind of environment.

GORANI: And when you think of Egypt, the Egypt is not a small country. It's the most populous. It's got a big economy compared to some other countries.

This is a disaster. This is a disaster for ordinary Egyptians who are nowhere near Tahrir or Rabaa al-Adawiya or anything like that.

TRAGAR: No doubt about it. And remember that Egypt is the most populous Arab country and the prospect of having instability in Egypt also has tremendous ramifications for the region more broadly.

So it's very important that the international community make a strong statement now and try to get the military to back down, try to get the Brotherhood to respond appropriately. But I'm very pessimistic about our ability to really influence events moving forward within Egypt.

GORANI: Eric Tragar, thanks very much.

TRAGAR: Thanks for having me.

GORANI: And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GORANI: A final thought tonight, imagine a world where, in the words of the American novelist William Faulkner, "The past isn't dead. It isn't even past."

That is the reality in Egypt, where ancient pyramids coexist with crowded cities and where the military seems to be reenacting a drama that first played out nearly 60 years ago.

Today, the face of Egypt's military belongs to General Abdul Fattah al- Sisi. And even as his troops make good on his threat to crack down on what he calls terrorists and extremists, he's become a cult hero to some Egyptians, insisting that he's acting upon the will of the people.

If that rings reassuringly to some and ominously to others, it's because Egypt's military said much the same thing back in 1952. That's when a cadre of officers led by Col. Gamal Abdel Nasser, overthrew King Farouk and established the military rule that lasted until the fall of Hosni Mubarak in 2011.

The echoes and images are actually quite similar. The Muslim Brotherhood and the army may be locked in a fiery struggle today, but it's a conflict that began six decades ago when an attempt on Nasser's life led to the burning of the Brotherhood's Cairo headquarters.

Soon after the party was outlawed in the name of the people and that ban continued until the 2011 revolution.

That's it for tonight's program. Meanwhile, you can always contact us on our website, amanpour.com. And you can follow me on Twitter, @halagorani. Thanks for watching and goodbye from the CNN Center.

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