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Death Toll in Egypt Passes 500; Explosion in Lebanon Attributed to Sunni Militants; Deathly Violence Engulfs Iraq; Abu Ghraib, the Nightmare That Will Not End

Aired August 15, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

HALA GORANI, CNNI: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Hala Gorani, sitting in today for Christiane Amanpour.

There are two devastating and potentially very significant stories unfolding right now and at the same time in the Middle East.

You're looking behind me at the scenes of a huge explosion in the southern suburbs of Beirut, Lebanon. A massive blast that rocked an area which is a stronghold of the Lebanese Shiite militant group, Hezbollah. State media are reporting 14 people are dead; 212 are injured.

We'll have more on the events in Lebanon in just a few minutes, including details on who is claiming responsibility. That will happen in a moment.

But first to Egypt. Wednesday's military crackdown on supporters of the ousted president, Mohammed Morsy, resulted in the death of more than 520 people. That's according to that country's health ministry. It's a bloodbath and it's already taking a toll on Egypt's relationship with its most important ally, the United States.

Each year, the U.S. military carries out a huge joint exercise in the Sinai Desert in conjunction with the Egyptian military, called Operation Bright Star. Just yesterday, in fact, Egypt's ambassador told CNN that losing this show of cooperation would be, quote, "a serious blow to Egypt."

Well, today, Barack Obama canceled the exercise.

So will the U.S. response move beyond symbolic action?

Joining me to answer that question is U.S. State Department spokesperson Jennifer Psaki.

Thanks for being with us.

JENNIFER PSAKI, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON: Thanks for having me.

GORANI: So canceling this military exercise, Jennifer, it does sound more symbolic, really, than a genuine blow to the relationship.

What would you call this cancellation?

PSAKI: Well, we do have a deep and during relationship with Egypt that is based on our national security interests, our interests regarding regional stability and, of course, our continuing support for democracy around the world, no matter the rocky road that it takes.

But this step was taken, as you mentioned, the president announced this morning, given the events of the last 36 hours, given those deplorable acts. We did take this step. In recent weeks we also made the decision not to deliver on the sale of F-16s. And this review is ongoing. The story has not ended. We review every single day, and that will continue.

And the actions on the ground will be a determining factor.

GORANI: So more steps could be taken. I mean, what would the -- in your -- as you continue this review, what would the Egyptian military- backed government have to do for more steps to be taken, such as, for instance, reconsidering the military aid to the country?

PSAKI: Well, I certainly don't want to predict or project more tragedy like what happened in the last 48 hours. But there are positive steps that can be taken by the government. That can be taken on the ground to return to the path back to democracy. That's what we would like to see happen. Deputy Secretary Burns has put constructive ideas down on the table.

We've worked closely with High Representative Ashton on that. And we want to see an end to the bloodshed. So there are positive steps that can be taken by the Egyptians on the ground. And we look forward to seeing those.

GORANI: So was the U.S. surprised by these actions?

Did they think that this military-backed government was going to engage in the kind of crackdown that it did against Muslim Brotherhood supporters in those two squares?

PSAKI: Well, they have been talking about the possibility of taking these steps for several days, which is one of the reasons that the secretary, the president, others in the administration have been so engaged with officials in Egypt, with our regional counterparts to encourage them not to take these steps. We support peaceful protests, including sit-ins.

So they were talking about this. But of course, seeing these deplorable acts take place is certainly different than the prediction.

GORANI: And has Secretary Kerry spoken to his counterpart, Nabil Fahmy, the interim Egyptian foreign minister? Have they had a conversation today? And if so, what was said?

PSAKI: They spoke twice yesterday. They speak on a regular basis, as the secretary does with many officials in Egyptian and in the region. They talked about the events on the ground. The secretary expressed the concerns. He expressed publicly and he expressed the fact that their door remains open.

(CROSSTALK)

PSAKI: (Inaudible) dialogue is open.

Well, I'm not going to read out on Foreign Minister Fahmy's behalf; but the secretary did say yesterday that he felt an expression of openness to returning to a positive path forward. And they'll continue to discuss that in the days ahead.

GORANI: So the secretary was encouraged by the response, by Nabil Fahmy, who he knows? I mean, Nabil Fahmy was an Egyptian ambassador to Washington.

(CROSSTALK)

GORANI: He's familiar (inaudible).

PSAKI: Yes, (inaudible) for a number of years. We will be encouraged by actions on the ground, actions speak louder than words, and that's what we're looking for.

GORANI: One of the things that --- one of the terms that's been so often used with regard to Syria is a red line.

Is there a red line with Egypt?

Is there something Egypt could do at this point that would make the U.S. seriously reconsider its relationship with that country?

Or will it all just be symbolic action?

PSAKI: Well, we review -- I would hardly call the cancellation of an important exercise as symbolic or the cancellation or the delay, the suspension of the delivery of F-16s. We continue to review actions on the ground. We'll certain determine what steps if any are taken in the future.

GORANI: All right. So no clear red line there, no clear indication what the Egyptian government should certainly not do.

PSAKI: Well --

GORANI: Yes?

PSAKI: -- I've been in this business long enough not to set red lines. I'll leave that to people who are far above me on the food chain.

GORANI: I'll tell you, I think that's wise.

Let's talk quickly about what's going on in Lebanon. Yet another devastating car bomb in a Shiite neighborhood of Beirut and the suspicion - - and in fact, we have a claim of responsibility -- Sunni extremists there, planting these bombs in civilian areas.

Is this all a reaction or, I should say, a result of inaction by Western countries, including the U.S., to try to contain the Syrian crisis?

PSAKI: Well, certainly, let me first say that this is a tragedy and we would condemn all violence of this kind and we have seen, as you just mentioned, that there is a group that has claimed responsibility.

As you know, because you report on it frequently, the events in Syria are complicated and we are very concerned about the influx of foreign fighters, about the influx of Hezbollah, Iran and the overflow that is happening.

And this is a -- and it -- perhaps an example of that, the overflow of violence into neighboring countries. And certainly the sovereignty of Lebanon is something we think all neighboring countries should respect. But it is a grave concern and something that we're watching very closely.

GORANI: All right. Jennifer Psaki, a State Department spokesperson, joining us live from Washington, D.C., thanks so much for your time today.

PSAKI: Thank you. It was my pleasure.

GORANI: All right.

And since that car bomb exploded in Lebanon, as we were discussing there with Ms. Psaki, a YouTube video has surfaced in which three masked men holding weapons claim to be part of a group responsible for that attack. You see it there. They're in front of a sign that says in Arabic, "There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah."

The group calls itself the Brigade of Aisha, Mother of Believers. And they accuse Hezbollah of being the aggressors. Hezbollah is, of course, the Shiite militant group in Lebanon that has moved into Syria to fight along Bashar al-Assad in important battles like Qusayr, for instance.

In the video, the men warn Lebanon to avoid any alliance with Iran.

Let's discuss with our CNN correspondents who are usually based in the region, Nick Paton Walsh, who's normally in Beirut, and senior international -- both senior international correspondents, Ivan Watson, who's based in Istanbul.

Thanks to both of you.

And we're all here together in New York to discuss something happening half a world away, but two very important stories.

And I want to start with Lebanon here, yet another giant car bomb in the southern suburbs.

Is this going to turn into something bigger? Because that's the biggest fear.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is the worst (inaudible) numbers so far, because you've seen these explosions; weeks there was rockets that hit the presidential palace. No one even reported on it. It was kind of swept under the carpet, like a lot of the violence in Lebanon over the past few months.

But the real fear has been if you get a blast of this scale in what should be Hezbollah's securest stronghold, they have to respond somehow. That doesn't suggest any escalation to civil war or anything, but they have to stand up again, show their military prowess, show the fact that they can control areas like that. And that's the fear. They may push into some kind of action which --

(CROSSTALK)

GORANI: Was it the case the last time? Did they respond after the last car bomb to hit? So in this case, you think there was some point they're going to have to say, hey, we have to show that we're capable and that we're --

WALSH: (Inaudible) complex one, because they, in a very precarious situation inside Lebanon anyway, the decision to intervene in Syria is deeply unpopular with many Lebanese. The decision to veer away from their original cause of being in the resistance against Israel, that's confused some of their loyalists.

So they're caught playing a complicated game. And many were surprised by the openness of them saying we're fighting with Bashar al-Assad until the end. They've made a very existential line in the sand and crossed over it.

GORANI: Certainly. I remember a time after the 2006 war with Israel, when Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of the Hezbollah movement, with his pan- Arab hero. No more. I mean, there are sectarian lines drawn here across the region that are very clear.

IVAN WATSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, he's lost so much of that pan-Arab kind of appeal that he had. And you very well know that Lebanon has always been this kind of battleground for the proxy wars of neighboring powers. And Hezbollah turned it around by becoming a participant in the proxy war in Syria. And I think we're very much seeing the consequences of that right now.

GORANI: Egypt now, and you reported you were there during, I think, the initial overthrow of Mohammed Morsy. We heard this announcement by President Obama, that this joint military exercise in the Sinai would be canceled.

Does the Egyptian military care, really? Or not?

WATSON: I think the actions that we've seen in the past 24 hours suggests that they don't care at all. I mean, here, you've just had the State Department spokeswoman saying they were considering taking these steps; we were urging them not to and they went ahead and did it.

And they knew full well that there would be loss of life because it's not the first time that dozens of people have been killed in Cairo since Morsy was overthrown. It's happened a couple times. But here, now we have more than 500 dead as a result of these actions. But I think it's been made very clear that they really didn't care what the --

GORANI: That's interesting, because the assumption before was, ooh, the Egyptian military is shaking in their boots. Every time the possibility that America would withdraw its military aid or would sort of take some sort of measure like this one comes up. But it -- they're not.

WATSON: Also, I think it's really important to point out that the U.S. aid, which is a little bit over $1 billion, it's not a drop in the bucket, is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount that the Gulf Arab states have pledge to this interim government backed by the military in Egypt in just the last six weeks.

And they show no signs of pulling back that assistance. I think if you wanted to put leverage on them, you'd have to go to Saudi Arabia and Qatar and the UAE.

WALSH: In many ways, (inaudible) thought this through. This is what they do full time. And this is one of many U.S. foreign policy conundrums right now. They know that the U.S. needs to keep Israel secure; they know that that's the reason Washington and Cairo need to be tight. They need to keep Sinai calm.

Nobody wants to see that deteriorate on either side. And I think that's the balance, really, that they've made, the calculation they made.

Let's bear in mind, both of these sides have had U.S. mediators around for weeks, trying to bring at the table, trying to stop this inevitable massacre, unfortunately, from happening. And it's almost like they both know this is where they almost feel they need to be right now to prove their point.

GORANI: But what's interesting from what you're both saying is that really the regional actors now that are having the most impact on developments aren't Western countries. It's not the United States. It's regional powers here.

WATSON: Absolutely. We've seen that the --

GORANI: Because when you go to Arab countries, immediately it's the U.S., USA, whatever the USA wants, happens. This is all a conspiracy.

(CROSSTALK)

WATSON: I still think it's almost an instinct in the Middle East and in many of these Arab countries to blame the U.S. But no, they are clearly not dictating what's happening on the ground.

It is kind of funny to hear the prime minister of Turkey to -- on the other side of the Mediterranean, castigating Western countries and saying, hey, you allowed this to happen by not calling this a coup in Egypt. But not mentioning the billions that have been pledged by the Gulf Arab states to the military regime in Cairo.

WALSH: (Inaudible) remarkable seeing how this region is changing and how little involvement the U.S. is having in Syria, in the turmoil in Iraq and their attempt to try and be neutral in Egypt but always being accused by the other side; they're not perceived to be backing, is backing the opposition. So --

GORANI: I mean, just lastly, what is the future look like for these countries? Each country has a different set of problems. It's not the same everywhere. But fundamentally, we're seeing conflicts within countries. You know, in Egypt, it's going to be between supporters of Islamist parties and supporters of the military-backed government. In Syria, it's sectarian; in Lebanon as well.

What could -- ?

WATSON: We've had this incredible period of euphoria in 2011 --

(CROSSTALK)

WATSON: And I think what's we've seen played out in different ways in Syria and Egypt is that counterrevolution. Bashar al-Assad started immediately to try to crush this uprising and this civil war continues with tragic, awful results to this very day.

And the Egyptian generals, they took a little longer to get around to it. But now there's emergency rule, a curfew in the streets, and the democratically elected president of Egypt and that his party are outlaws and in jail.

WALSH: This, too, is a decades-long process. I mean, you remember (inaudible) former Soviet Union for still seeing fallout from that. So imagine this suddenly tomorrow everything will be fine and dandy is essentially, sadly, a little optimistic.

GORANI: Nick Paton Walsh and Ivan Watson, senior international correspondents based in Istanbul and (inaudible), thanks very much to both of you.

And while the graphic images from Lebanon and Egypt have the power to shock and horrify, one simple picture without bloodshed or violence may say even more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI (voice-over): This man is recording the names of some of those killed during Egypt's military crackdown. Just names on a list with no faces to go with them, and yet page after page they convey the magnitude of the tragedy.

And after a break, we'll turn to Iraq, another nation on Syria's border, with a rising body count. Can regional violence be contained? Or is the plague spreading ever wider? When we come back.

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GORANI: Welcome back to the program. I'm Hala Gorani, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.

Yet another story of devastating sectarian violence today in Iraq. A year and a half after U.S. troops left the country, it's clear that those who said the war was over and the country would be stable on its own were very, very wrong.

Instead, deadly fighting is engulfing Iraq, leaving many worried it may slip back into civil war. July marked the deadliest month in five years, more than 1,000 dead and 2,000 injured. And the violence continued today. A wave of eight car bombs exploded across Baghdad, mainly in Shiite areas, killing at least 25 and wounding 70 others.

My next guest is Iraq's foreign minister, Hoshyar Zebari, and the face of spiraling sectarian violence, political conflict and a growing threat from Al Qaeda.

Thanks for joining us, Mr. Zebari. You met with John Kerry, the U.S. secretary of state in Washington, D.C., this day. What did you talk about especially, I'm sure, regarding the violence that is once again on the rise in Iraq?

HOSHYAR ZEBARI, IRAQ FOREIGN MINISTER: Yes, Hala, we -- it's good to be with you. We discussed with Secretary Kerry the situation in Iraq, the regional situation, development in Egypt and also the spillover from the continuation of the Syrian crisis into neighboring countries.

Yes, as you said, there is a trend for more heightened sectarian tension as we've seen in Lebanon, in Iraq and participation of Hezbollah in the conflict and in Syria.

And this nobody can benefit from this, really there are forces who are encouraging this sectarian confrontation. But the ongoing Syrian crisis is going to lead to more instability and more unrest in the entire region.

GORANI: But what is the government, if I could ask you, the government of Iraq, doing?

What is it telling its citizens who are just sick and tired of all this?

After 10 years of war, now they can't go out to a market or a restaurant on Eid without being afraid of getting blown up.

What is the responsibility of the central government here to protect them?

ZEBARI: Yes, definitely, I mean, there has been a renewal of Al Qaeda attacks on Shia neighborhoods, on Sunni neighborhoods and public markets to ignite sectarian war. But the people of Iraq has refrained, has not succumbed into being dragged into sectarian or civil war.

Yes, the number of casualty has increased during al-Eid and as early as yesterday. And this is really a part -- part of it is our own failures. We have to admit that. We don't want to portray a rosy picture. But the other part is the spillover of the conflict of sectarianism, of the nexus of Al Qaeda and Al-Nusra across the Syrian-Iraqi borders.

And we are here in Washington to discuss this issue very seriously that Al Qaeda threat is not local; it's global. We've seen recently the closure of the U.S. embassies throughout the Middle East and North Africa.

And we've come to our American friends to seek their help and support to enhance our security capabilities, to counter terrorism, to confront this threat. But the government is doing its best, really, to stamp out the violence. But this has to be accompanied by political and economic measures, something my government is dead serious to do that.

GORANI: But with respect, though, Minister Zebari -- and we've met before, once even in Iraq. And this is the same thing you told me a few years ago.

So what's different about now, because a few years ago you were saying we need help; we need to increase security but we need economic opportunity.

And we're in 2013 now.

ZEBARI: Well, the situation has changed, Hala, since those days. I and General Petraeus came and knocked on your door, you see, in downtown Baghdad, during the surge time. Now the entire region is boiling as you have been reporting. The whole dynamics have changed; the political system have fallen and also the lack of leadership in the regions, really, whether regional or international. Everybody is left to his own.

And therefore it is very important to have regional, international cooperation, to defeat Al Qaeda and its affiliates, like Al-Nusra and elsewhere. You have seen the bombing today. And Lebanon is another indication that these forces are determined to ignite sectarian civil wars in this country because that is the only atmosphere they can thrive on.

GORANI: But if -- so you spoke with Secretary Kerry and when the last American soldier left your country, Minister Zebari, the Americans said, we will not abandon Iraq. We are not cutting and running. You know, we're going to help Iraq on its path to stability. A, are they really doing that? And, B, if not, what do you want from the U.S. right now, that they may not be providing at this stage?

ZEBARI: Well, we discussed with Secretary Kerry and other U.S. officials at the White House the importance really to enhance Iraq-U.S. relationship. Iraq is still a reliable ally and partner to the United States. We have the strategic framework agreement that we have started discussions on the political and diplomatic joint coordination committee. And there will be further meeting in Baghdad.

I think we are pushing through open door here in wash. As far as the counterterrorism and standing up to Al Qaeda and the extremist forces in Iraq and the regions, I think we --

(CROSSTALK)

GORANI: But you don't feel frustrated? You don't -- you feel like they are actually helping, that they're making (inaudible)?

ZEBARI: I believe so. It is in their interest. It is in their national interest. I mean, Syria is next door to us, maybe thousands away from you. But really we are all affected by this ongoing crisis and suffering.

GORANI: Thank you very much, Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari, joining us live from Washington after your meeting there with Secretary Kerry and others. Thank you.

ZEBARI: Thank you.

GORANI: And after a break, imagine waking from a nightmare only to find that it keeps going on and on. That's not a bad dream. It is the legacy of Baghdad's notorious Abu Ghraib prison. The monster that will not die, when we come back.

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GORANI: A final thought, while Egypt and Iraq, in fact, much of the region including Syria, seem trapped in a bad dream of sectarian violence and civil war, imagine a world where one infamous barbed wire nightmare refuses to go away.

Abu Ghraib prison, a synonym for man's inhumanity to man. When Saddam Hussein ruled Iraq with an iron fist, it was his personal house of horrors, where his political opponents were jailed without trial, tortured and executed.

Then 10 years ago, when U.S. forces invaded Iraq, the hellish world of Saddam's prison was laid bare as grieving families were allowed to dig up the bones of loved ones and give them a proper burial.

But like the end of a horror movie, when the monster won't die, less than a year later, the world again recoiled in outrage at shocking new digital images of American troops humiliating and abusing prisoners in those same cells and hallways. The last U.S. soldier left Iraq in 2011 and for many, Abu Ghraib was out of sight and out of mind.

But a little over three weeks ago, the monster reared its head again, when a bloody prison break freed 500 prisoners, many of them Al Qaeda terrorists, now able to wreak more havoc. One day, the nightmare of Abu Ghraib may finally fade away.

But another prison, this one left unfinished by the U.S. withdrawal at a cost of $40 million, remains a monument to waste and failed policies that will continue to haunt us for years to come.

That's it for tonight's program. Meantime, you can always contact us on our website, amanpour.com. And you can follow me on Twitter @halagorani. Thank you for watching and goodbye from New York.

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