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Amanpour

Israel: Only Deeds Count; Conserving and Exploiting U.S. Resources; Imagine a World

Aired September 17, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

And this hour, the major powers at the heart of the U.N. Security Council are meeting in New York to hammer out a resolution that will force Syria to comply with a deal to disarm and destroy its chemical weapons.

It's been watched, of course, all over the world and tonight for the first time since the deal was agreed, we get official reaction from Israel. I interviewed Finance Minister Yair Lapid, who tells me that while diplomacy is encouraging, in Syria only deeds count.

Now the Israeli government has cautiously welcomed the proposal to dismantle Bashar al-Assad's chemical arsenal, which sits right on its border. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry briefed Prime Minister Netanyahu at the weekend to reassure him that the use of military force would remain on the table if Syria fails to comply.

But even before this deal was struck, Netanyahu had already taken military action in Syria, something that President Obama was initially proposing. This year, Israel has bombed convoys of conventional weapons that it suspected were being transferred from Syria to its enemy, Hezbollah. And it's done that four times that we know of.

Today I spoke about all of this to Israeli cabinet minister Yair Lapid, who's head of the second largest party in Israel now. The former journalist and TV host represents a moderate secular voice of Israel and he secured a surprise second place in this year's election.

I also asked him what impact the current crises in the region will have on the prospect for proper peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians. He joined me from Tel Aviv.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program and thanks for joining me.

YAIR LAPID, ISRAELI FINANCE MINISTER: Thank you for having me, Christiane. I'm happy to be here.

AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you first about your reaction to the international between the United States and Russia to seize Syria's chemical weapons and destroy them.

Does that satisfy you? Does that satisfy Israel?

LAPID: Well, it's too early to tell. I mean, I think we have just proved again, the international community has just proved again that if you want to negotiate, you'll better have a big stick in your hand or, in this case, a big Tomahawk in your hand. And then you can negotiate. This is -- I mean, it's the Middle East; you have to have sticks with the carrots.

It's too early to say if this will succeed. What we need is to fork (ph) all chemical weapons to be removed from Syria. When this will happen , I will tell you it's a great success. Until this is happening, we're still looking at it.

AMANPOUR: So you talk about the big stick. So are you satisfied that the United States will keep the threat of force on the table? Obviously Secretary Kerry has briefed Prime Minister Netanyahu about the plan.

You satisfied that that stick will remain there?

LAPID: Well, I think it was proven once and once again that unless there is a credible threat, the -- all the negotiation becoming are just empty words. So the fact that this is still on the table and this time this is agreed upon with Russia and the United States, is a good thing and essential for the progress of all this process.

We need to have -- I'm telling you, this is not over. It won't be over until all weapons of mass destruction will be out of Syria. Then we will know this whole move has succeeded.

AMANPOUR: Obviously, there are huge challenges ahead. What is the most important issue for Israel right now over this Syrian crisis?

LAPID: Well, I think there are two issues. One issue is the fact that I think no country in the world wants to know that they have on their border a regime, a dictatorship which is dangerous in the middle of a civil war and willing to use weapons of mass destruction. And we want to have those removed. So this is number one.

Number two is of course everybody's looking of the kind of signals the international community and especially the United States are signaling (ph) us and especially to Iran. Iran also have to know that the word, the word, the international community, the United States will not be silent when regimes and dictatorships are gathering weapons of mass destruction and while intending to use them.

AMANPOUR: Mr. Lapid, what do you make, then , of the new Iranian president who has been very vocal and public about wanting to have a foreign policy that is more moderate -- those are his words -- less extremist -- those are his words -- and also willing to talk about the nuclear program?

Does that -- I mean, are you eager to see what he has to say? Or are you just dismissing it as just more rhetoric?

LAPID: I'm happy for a different vocabulary. But I want to see what's happening.

Since this president came into power, since Rouhani came into power in Iran, they've already built 7,000 new centrifuges; 1,000 of them are from the upgraded use kind of machinery.

So when this will stop, when the reactor cone will be closed, when they will stop enriching uranium, when they take off the uranium, enriched uranium, they already have, then we can discuss the fact whether we can all hold hands and sing hallelujah together.

So again, I'm happy to listen to any new music coming from Iran. But this has to be back by -- not only by words but also by deeds.

AMANPOUR: So hallelujah, new music, must have been interesting to your ears then, over Rosh Hashanah, when the president's office tweeted, "A happy new year to Jews all over the world," and when the foreign minister himself tweeted, "A happy new year to Jews all over the world."

LAPID: Well, of course I'm -- I'd rather have people tweeting me happy Rosh Hashanah or Happy New Year, instead of tweeting that they are, I don't know, Holocaust deniers as it was before. But we have to be more careful than that.

As I was saying, is the real thing? I don't want to be sour about everything. But is this the real thing? Because if deeds contradicts the words, then we have to believe the deeds, not the words. I'm sure you'll agree with me on this.

AMANPOUR: Let's now talk about the Middle East peace process between Israel and the Palestinians. Secretary Kerry has just been there; you know that he has taken it on, maybe as a personal mission to try to get this peace process back on track. Tzipi Livni has been named the chief negotiator for the Israeli government. She's the justice minister.

And yet there seems to be deep pessimism that this idea of a two- state solution may be an idea whose time has come and gone.

What do you think right now?

LAPID: Well, I like low expectations. I want to keep low expectations. The best things are happening when we have low expectations and in a way, I wish this to continue a little while at least because I think we should make great -- good use of the -- of the time.

There's a timeframe of nine months, and I think we should make good use of this timeframe because this is also an adjusting period for everybody, as I think that whatever the agreement will be, it will need an adjusting period in terms of implementing it.

So the fact that everybody is going around and telling each other, you know, this is not going to work, this is not going to happen, is actually a good thing for everybody who feels the way -- strongly the way I do, that the two-state solution is the only solution where we should progress more in this peace process.

On the details of this, we have all agreed upon the concept in which Secretary Kerry is the only one who's talking to the press about the nitty-gritty of the process, so we're going to leave it this way.

AMANPOUR: You know, you are minister of finance. And as we look at Israel's economy, it's obviously done a lot better in these crisis years than many other economies.

When it comes, though, to the central bank, to the Israel central bank, you and the prime minister have failed to put in place a new governor, since Stanley Fisher (ph) stepped down in June.

Why? What's taking so long? Several candidates were -- didn't work out.

What can't you get that act together?

LAPID: Well, this is a fine example to the fact that, you know, comedies are just tragedies in fast forward. We have -- we have managed to choose two candidates who turn out to be the wrong candidates to -- and decided to withdraw.

And now it's going to take a few days or weeks more, and we're going to have a government of central bank. We have the right people in the right place. We just -- I mean, this is folklore and it's colorful enough to be interesting.

AMANPOUR: OK. Well, who do you think will be the central bank governor? Give me another name.

LAPID: Well, it's -- we have a few names on the table and we will discuss this.

(LAUGHTER)

LAPID: Well, this -- I'm sorry, but this has become the Holy Grail of all economical reporters in Israel. So we're not selling this yet.

AMANPOUR: Oh, my goodness. OK.

Well, how about --

LAPID: But it was a nice try.

AMANPOUR: It was a nice try.

Well, then let me close by asking you and turning the tables a little bit on you.

When you had your television show, you would end each episode with a quiz. And you would ask each and every one of your guests, Israeli or from other places, what symbolizes Israel for you?

So what does symbolize Israel for you today?

LAPID: Well, I'm going to choose the corniest answer that everybody gave me, which is my children. I have three children and whenever I look at them, I see the reason why is it that I'm doing what I'm doing.

You know what? Part of the things that happened to me in the move from journalism to the public arena is I lost most of if not all my cynicism. I'm -- I mean, I was -- everybody's a bit cynic when he's in the media. I'm not any more.

AMANPOUR: Yair Lapid, thank you very much indeed for joining me.

LAPID: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And just a note: today, Michael Oren, the outgoing Israeli ambassador to the United States, confirmed publicly what many Israeli officials have told me, that the country would actually like to see Bashar al-Assad toppled, viewing his defeat by the opposition as preferable to Syria's current alliance with Iran.

Turning next to the United States, where one woman is responsible for more than 20 percent of the national real estate. As U.S. Secretary of the Interior, Sally Jewell is charged with both conserving and exploiting America's natural resources. I'll ask her if that balancing act is made even more difficult by climate change.

Case in point: the deadly floods in the state of Colorado. While scientists don't directly attribute this one disaster to climate change, they do know that these extreme weather events are happening more often and are likely to increase as the Earth continues to warm. We'll be right back.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. A major new study from the International Panel on Climate Change is due out later this month, and it says that scientists are now 95 percent certain that humans are in fact to blame for global warming.

Meanwhile, in the United States, Republicans in the House of Representatives are about to kick off their own climate change hearings and they will be led and chaired by a climate skeptic. He's Edward Whitfield of Kentucky.

Into the fray steps U.S. Interior Secretary Sally Jewell, who oversees 20 percent of America's land and sits astride a conundrum, because she's responsible for both the conservation and the exploitation of U.S. natural resources. Jewell is a Washington outsider. She was once CEO of the wilderness equipment company REI and also was once a petroleum engineer.

As Interior secretary, she's traveled from disappearing islands in the South Pacific to the rapidly eroding coastline of Alaska's North Slope. And she joins me live from Washington right now.

Secretary Jewell, thank you for being with us.

SALLY JEWELL, SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you first about these latest trips that you've taken and how they play into your vision and your goals as Interior secretary.

And do you buy the premise that, in fact, you're responsible for what seems to be a contradiction in terms, both conservation and exploitation?

JEWELL: Well, Christiane, I think it's very clear from my role that you can't make a choice between having jobs and having resources and having a great environment. It's a false choice. We really must have both.

And in my position in Interior, I have an opportunity to see both, to see the impact of climate change on the ground, as I saw in the eroding coastal plain of Alaska, as the pack ice has moved out sooner and the waves are battering those shores more, or as I saw in the Pacific islands just a couple of weeks ago, as the runway in Majuro, in the Marshall Islands had washed away with increasing storm surges from rising sea levels and more significant storms.

AMANPOUR: So --

JEWELL: I also know that -- sorry; go ahead.

AMANPOUR: Oh, no, you go ahead.

JEWELL: I was going to say I also know that natural resources are critical to driving our economy. They have been in the past, but we've learned lessons from the past and there are ways that we can find energy, exploit our resources and do so in a way that is softer on the planet than we have in the past. And I feel privileged to be in a unique position of understanding how we must balance both.

AMANPOUR: How difficult is it for you? Obviously your supporters, a lot of environmentalists are really pleased by your appointment; they say that you're obviously committed to the environment.

But many, you know, also say that you were a successful CEO, but you were outside Washington. This is a really difficult town to navigate and that, you know, do you have the wherewithal to do so? And what do you make of, for instance, the constant challenges from, let's say, we're just seeing the Republicans about to chair their own climate change hearings led by a climate skeptic.

JEWELL: Well, yes, Washington is new to me, and I think it's important that I bring a business perspective here. And it's certainly been something that my colleagues at the White House have valued.

I think when you're running a business, you understand that you have to be part of the solution on climate change or otherwise.

When I was running REI, we worked to understand our carbon footprint and to reduce that. We worked to find utilities in the markets where the power was the most impactful on the climate, to find alternative sources of energy to create a market for renewable energies. And so I bring with me, I think, a very pragmatic business background that's very helpful.

AMANPOUR: So how --

JEWELL: In my discussions with members of Capitol Hill, they've been, I think, very intrigued and interested about that business background.

AMANPOUR: OK. So how do you manage to pragmatically convince them? Because it's obviously going to take a lot of politics, a lot of successful political wrangling and compromise to actually make your impact.

And you know, you did once say when you joined the department, "I hope there are no climate change deniers in the Department of the Interior."

I mean, are there? Do you plan to flush them out if there are?

JEWELL: As I've traveled the landscape in my job, in fact, the first 100 days, I did the equivalent of 1.5 times around the circumference of the Earth, looking at our resources, meeting with people on the ground. And I learned from the Fish and Wildlife Service how their habitats that are critical for fish and wildlife species are being impacted.

From invasive species that are coming in, from wildfires that are impacting the landscapes, where I'm told by our people on the ground that they're burning so hot that the native species don't have the natural regeneration that they did in the past.

So when you are in a position like mine and you're working with people as we have in Interior who are out in these resources, it is very clear to them that things are changing.

What I did say to my colleagues at Interior are we -- we are in a privileged position to actually do something about that, to prepare our lands for climate change but also to help stand up renewable energy projects and more energy development in a way that walks softer on the landscape and is part of the solution as opposed to being part of the challenge.

AMANPOUR: I mean, presumably you agree with this panel that's about to come out, that says 95 percent of scientists are now convinced that it is humans who are causing global warming, contributing to it.

JEWELL: Well, I'm proud to work for a president who has come up with a climate action plan recently that says that climate change is very clear. It's clear in our landscapes, and we now are in a position where we must act. We must do something about that. And he has charged me, for example, in Interior, with standing up renewable energy projects that will provide 20 gigawatts of power by 2020.

And I can tell you that my colleagues at Interior are well on the way. We have permitted over 13 gigawatts of renewable energy already in places like the Desert Southwest or in wind energy projects offshore. These are the kinds of things that are going to create jobs, support our economy and give us alternatives to a carbon-based energy future which is what we've had in the past.

AMANPOUR: But how then do you square this whole rush to fracking? It's obviously a huge issue in the United States and around the world, here and in other parts of Europe and elsewhere.

Obviously, that's the -- that's the way of extracting deep oil and natural gas. And many environmentalists and even scientists basically say that it is potentially very damaging to the environment. You've spoken about, you know, the economics; you've spoken about needing, you know, to have jobs.

Is the -- are the economics playing a bigger role in this than the environmental and the renewable? Because it's not renewable, of course, that.

JEWELL: So there's a lot of misinformation about fracking and I'm probably in a pretty unique position as the Secretary of Interior who's actually served as a petroleum engineer and fracked wells myself.

Fracking has been around for 60 years. And it can be done safely and responsibly. I do think it's important for those of us in the federal government or in state governments as well as in responsible businesses to make sure that whatever practices we support or we employ are done in a safe and responsible way, which can be done with fracking.

I will also say that new techniques, unconventional techniques for releasing fossil fuels provides a softer imprint on the land in many ways and creates the ability to extract more natural gas or oil from the same formations that may have been once before.

So it is an important part of the president's all-of-the-above energy strategy. I think it's important for the United States in terms of being able to produce energy domestically, but also it's just one step in many ways that we as a nation -- and I would say we as people -- need to look forward to ways to generate energy that are not dependent on fossil fuels.

So it's a bridge. It's a bridge to a future that's carbon-free.

AMANPOUR: You call it a bridge, but isn't it just delaying the day of reckoning?

JEWELL: I don't think so. I think that we need to do both. I think you cannot turn immediately from one source of energy to another one. You need to create a -- an environment where innovation can happen, where research can happen, like my colleagues do at the Department of Energy.

My colleague, Tina McCarthy (ph) at the Environmental Protection Agency, is looking at ways -- at ways to regulate carbon pollution. So just as we did with mercury or arsenic, regulating carbon is important and some of those moves that recognize carbon as a pollutant also will create the kind of climate that will support renewable energy development as a viable alternative.

So we really need to look at all as we move our economy forward.

AMANPOUR: Sally Jewell, Secretary of the Interior, thank you very much for joining me from Washington.

And --

JEWELL: My pleasure.

AMANPOUR: -- after a break, imagine if a Berlin wall of silence came crashing down, one tweet at a time. For a few brief hours, it happened in Iran. Was it a new beginning or a network difficulty? A social media mystery when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where the Berlin wall came down and went right back up again.

Now Thomas Erdbrink (ph) is the Tehran bureau chief for "The New York Times." On Monday, he tweeted this extraordinary message: "Is Iran's Berlin Wall of Internet censorship crumbling down? I am tweeting from Tehran from my cell phone without restrictions."

And he wasn't alone. Suddenly, Iranians were able to access Twitter and Facebook without sidestepping government firewalls, a freedom of expression almost unknown since the 2009 reelection of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the crackdown against his political opponents both inside and outside the country.

Iranian Internet users were euphoric Monday and they were quick to credit their new president, Hassan Rouhani, who has his own Twitter and Facebook pages and has encouraged the free flow of information amongst people.

Even Iran's new foreign minister is an avid tweeter.

Then just as suddenly, the tweets took a different and mysterious turn. Iranians awoke to find social media blocked once again while the government insisted that the brief Internet interlude was just a glitch. Or was it? Some see it as a deliberate test of boundaries in a new Iran. Others say it reflects a political struggle within the leadership.

Glitch or government policy, something has changed. Iran's foreign ministry today confirmed that Presidents Rouhani and Obama have exchanged letters as President Obama said this weekend. It is the first direct communication between leaders of the two countries since diplomatic relations were severed in 1980.

And that's it for tonight's program. Meantime, you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.

END