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Amanpour

Skepticism over Syrian Disarmament; Pope Francis Gives an Interview

Aired September 19, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

Tonight, a surprise interview with the pope -- not ours, sadly, but nonetheless, it contains amazing insight into the man and his vision for the Catholic Church. And in a moment, I'll speak to the editor of the Jesuit magazine that conducted the interview.

But first to Syria. There are now plenty of skeptics who don't think that President Bashar al-Assad will ever disarm his deadly chemical weapons stockpile. And in an interview today he says the process could take a year at least, and he wants the United States to foot the bill.

Now the U.N. secretary-general says this week the report into the August attack near Damascus that killed more than 1,000 people with poison gas made for, quote, "chilling reading." But the truth is that death toll pales in comparison to the 100,000 who've been killed by conventional weapons over the past 2.5 years.

In fact, since the chemical attacks just a month ago, another 2,400 people have been killed in the raging civil war. And tonight, we bring you what can only be described as chilling viewing, the anatomy of a war crime.

It took place in Al-Bayda, a village in western Syria on the morning of May 2nd this year. Government forces entered the town in search of three army defectors, and they ended up going door to door. Human Rights Watch says at least 248 people were executed in cold blood. In this film, Britain's Channel 4 news verified 169 killings, including women and children. Now of course what you're about to see is deeply distressing.

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"HASSAN", OPPOSITION FIGHTER, AL-BAYDA (through translator): The first bullet was fired at 7:30. They shot at us. We shot at them. Some of us died. It was a battle.

"SARA," AL-BAYDA SURVIVOR (through translator): We were very scared.

UM MOHAMMED, AL-BAYDA (through translator): We wanted the men to run away. We thought, we can stay, but they should run.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): At 1 o'clock, the three defectors slipped away and we withdrew, too. We went to hide in the caves.

"SARA" (through translator): We sat very scared. We were in bed under the covers. We thought they were coming any minute to finish us off. We heard screaming, men, women, and children, they were all screaming.

MOHAMMED (through translator): I dashed out. All the men were screaming. They were saying, "We haven't done anything." Little boys were screaming for their mothers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The men and the young men, some of them as young as 14, boys, were taken down to the streets. It's a sloping street that makes its way from the mosque up to the residential neighborhood. Some were shot while they were walking.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): The massacre happened in front of my eyes. When I walked out, I saw Towson's (ph) son. He was very thin and soft. His name was Alvarez (ph), Tuchman Alvarez (ph). He was so beautiful. He was probably the youngest.

This one, they killed him with a cleaver in front of his mother. They held him like this and cut off his head.

So many people lost parts of their bodies. We had to pick them up afterwards. We didn't know who was who.

"HASSAN" (through translator): I then went to my neighborhood. We got to the house of Abu Ali Mustafa (ph). His family name was Biyasi. When I arrived, it was about 10 o'clock at night. The door was wide open, and you could see the signs of destination. We entered the house and went into one of the rooms.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking foreign language).

"HASSAN": We saw more than 25 dead bodies, not one single man. Some were children. They were aged between 3 months and 70.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The main square of the village had been used as a gathering point by the armed troops. Bodies, bodies laid around, there were a few outside of Asnam's (ph) cell phone shop. This was the main cell phone shop of the village. Someone captured on footage, you know, around 35 men, corpses, lying on the floor of the cell phone shop, clearly all dead.

At some point in the afternoon, those bodies were burned. They were torched.

"HASSAN" (through translator): I can't describe what we saw inside. It was an incredible sight. I stood in the doorway. The room was 4 meters by 4 meters. There were about 60 bodies, but we couldn't count them accurately. It wasn't possible.

I turned one of burnt bodies and felt my hands covered with fat. The body had melted.

MOHAMMED (through translator): I recognized my son from his fingernail. When he was a kid, he broke his nail and I saw -- I recognized his broken nail. His fingers were swollen from the burns.

"SARA" (through translator): We came out of the house. We went to pack our things and escape. I saw my father in front of the mosque. They didn't burn him. They just lashed him here and shot him after they tortured him.

I don't believe they're dead. I still imagine they're alive. I don't believe they're dead.

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AMANPOUR: It is, indeed, hard to stomach. We asked the United Nations for a response to the evidence presented in this film, and their Commission of Inquiry on Syria said that it had investigated the incident, quote, "We call on the international community to closely consider these findings of this incident, to exert their influence towards a peaceful solution for the country and to ensure those responsible are held accountable."

Now war crimes have been committed by both sides, according to the latest report from the U.N. Human Rights Council, although it also mostly blamed the Assad regime, saying that it had committed eight massacres while the opposition have committed one over the past 18 months.

I'm joined now from Beirut by Nadim Houry of Human Rights Watch, whom we just saw in this film, and he's also been investigating the incident in Al-Bayda.

Nadim, thank you for joining me. Tell us first what has become of Al- Bayda since May when this happened and why Al-Bayda? Why this village? What was its strategic importance?

NADIM HOURY, HRW: Sure. Most of the Al-Bayda residents, particularly the Sunni Muslims, are still away. Many of them are displaced now in northern Syria and some have crossed to Turkey and to Lebanon. They're too afraid to go back. And many of the witnesses that you saw in this documentary have told me they feel like they can never go back as long as the government has not changed its policies.

Now why Al-Bayda? I mean, Al-Bayda, in many ways, and neighboring Banyas (ph), represented an opposition Sunni enclave in the heart of what many consider the Alawite heartland and in many ways a very loyalist part of the country. Al-Bayda was one of the first villages to start protest back in 2011 and two of its young men became figures, Ahmed Biyasi, for example, became symbols in the early days.

Since then, there hasn't been much. I mean, the only significance for the opposition for Al-Bayda was that sometimes some local activists would allow defectors to try to escape. And there were some small skirmishes, but nothing, you know, no real fighting. Because it's an enclave that is completely isolated from the rest of the opposition-held areas.

AMANPOUR: And of course, we have this map where we can clearly see where it is and its relation to Homs, Hama and the coastline there.

But let me ask you what can your investigation do? You seem to be meticulously naming people. You've got the charge. You've had this investigation along with the journalists inside Al-Bayda. Do you really believe that it will somehow be dealt with in a court of law? Does this evidence stand up?

HOURY: It has to. We decided to publish every single name of every victim because too many of Syria's victims these days are nameless. And it was an effort to remind the international community, particularly Russia and the U.S. these days, that are negotiating a deal on chemical weapons, that the overwhelming numbers of victims were not victims of chemical weapons and that there is a duty for the international community to give justice to all these victims, including those who were killed with machine guns.

AMANPOUR: And let me ask you another question. The U.N. published a report last week, which talked about how hospitals are being targeted. They are now really war centers, some even say, are being used by military intelligence as torture centers; hospital staff are being targeted.

What can you tell us about what is happening in what should be a neutral and sacrosanct location?

HOURY: You know, unfortunately, this has been happening since the early months of the uprising in Syria. And just four months ago, when I was in the city of Rutga (ph), I visited a hospital that was bombed two weeks later. So it's unfortunately very, very true. Field hospitals have been attacked.

We've also in some cases seen rebels putting their bases, sometimes close enough, which would also be a violation. But by and large, there has been attacks by the Syrian Air Force and sometimes by shelling on hospitals across the country. And it has pushed unprecedented numbers of medical personnel to actually speak up about it.

Many people are dying in Syria from wounds that could be treated ,from basic wounds , simply because the medical personnel are denied access. I mean, we documented, for example, the siege of Al-Qusayr and many people -- doctors told us after they came out they were not able to save many lives simply because they've run out of basic medical products.

AMANPOUR: Nadim Houry, Human Rights Watch, thank you very much indeed for joining me.

And now to paraphrase Edmund Burke, the 18th century philosopher, all that is necessary for the triumph is evil is that good men do nothing.

Pope Francis has responded to that challenge by fasting and prayer and leading a worldwide call for peace in Syria. "We have perfected our weapons," he said earlier this month to tens of thousands in St. Peter's Square. "Our conscience has fallen asleep."

Today the pope spoke again in an interview with a Jesuit newspaper and he touched on subjects that were once considered untouchable by previous popes, opening the Vatican windows when we return.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Now Pope Francis is quickly establishing himself as a pontiff who doesn't pull his punches. In a wide-ranging interview published today in Jesuit journals around the world, the pope was open and forthright, even on controversial issues. He also showed a clear-eyed vision of his own shortcomings and those of his church. In fact, he criticized the Catholic Church for focusing perhaps too much on issues like contraception and gay marriage, saying, quote, "We have to find a new balance. Otherwise, even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel."

Father James Martin is editor of "America," that Jesuit magazine that published the interview in the United States. And he joined me earlier.

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AMANPOUR: Father Martin, welcome.

Thanks for joining me.

FR. JAMES MARTIN, EDITOR, "AMERICA": My pleasure.

AMANPOUR: So tell me, this is a major surprise to everybody.

Who knew that a pope would sit down and give an interview, this pope, particularly?

All eyes of the world are on him.

How did it even come about?

MARTIN: In general, the pope doesn't give interviews like that, but when "Civilta Cattolica," another Jesuit journal, and other Jesuit magazines around the world decided to do it in tandem, the pope said yes.

And so he sat down with the editor of "Civilta" and we got the Italian translation and translated it in English and actually kept it a secret all this time.

AMANPOUR: You certainly did. It's only just come out into public view.

And let's be a little bit cynical. He's not really giving an interview to the press, he's talking to his base. He's talking to his fellow Jesuits.

But nonetheless, what a bombshell. Certainly it seems like it.

Were you surprised by his forthright conversation?

MARTIN: I was extremely surprised. Now, I would say, though, that even though he's speaking to Jesuits, he knows that everyone is going to read it, that it's going to be online. So in a sense, he's talking to the world.

You know, for example, he talks about, you know, people not being restorationists and not looking back to a future that has passed. He's a very sort of forward-looking pope.

AMANPOUR: What surprised you the most?

And if he doesn't want to talk about those doctrinal things that, often, the Catholic hierarchy seem to just stick to, what does he want to talk about?

MARTIN: He wants to talk about mercy. At one point, he says, look, we are too focused, on certainty and on dogma. And he said, "I will tell you my certainty" -- this is the pope speaking -- "God is in every person."

AMANPOUR: Did he expand on what he started to talk about in terms of gays, the gay issue, homosexuality?

He surprised a lot of people when he was asked on the plane back from the youth summit in Rio, about this. And he said, "Who am I to judge?"

And I guess at the time, people thought, well, you know, he's only talking about gay priests or whatever.

Did he expand on that?

What else did he say?

And how do you describe his specific and deliberate use of the term "gay" rather than the other way, the more hostile way the Vatican and Catholic hierarchy have talked about it?

MARTIN: He says that, "At one point, someone asked me once provocatively" -- this is the pope speaking, you know, "do I reject homosexuality?"

And he said, well, "You answer me this, does God condemn that person or love that person?"

You know, he says we must treat those people, you know, where they are in their situations with mercy.

And you're right, he's using the term "gay." In the past, popes have used very sort of antiseptic language like homosexuals or homosexually oriented. And he is choosing to use the word "gay."

So this is a very different way of speaking about gays and lesbians than we've ever heard before.

AMANPOUR: What did he say about women?

Obviously, many of us really focus on what looks like real inequality in the church hierarchy. The women are simply banned from roles such that men have.

Did he mention that at all?

MARTIN: He didn't talk about women's ordination per se, but he said once again, which is what he said on the plane ride back from Rio, that we need a more profound theology of women.

And that's very interesting. That sounds very bland, but it basically means that he doesn't think that the church's theology of women right now is as deep as it could be. He also talked about, you know, bringing women into different roles of leadership, you know, presenting (ph) ordination.

AMANPOUR: Well, a lot of women will be listening, and not just about ordination. You remember, certainly, in the last years of Pope Benedict, you know, many Catholic nuns, many of whom I interviewed, were really almost excommunicated -- not quite, but really criticized for speaking out, just speaking out, about wanting equality and fairness and to belong to the faith.

You know, can they expect a friendlier church, a friendlier audience from the pope?

Or are they still going to be told that, no, you know, you either -- my way or the highway?

MARTIN: I think they can expect a much friendlier audience. At one point in the interview, the pope, you know, speaks out about people who are clinging to certainty.

And he says, you know, if you're going to look for certainty, you're not going to find it, basically, that we have to live in a world of uncertainty. And it is a world of dialogue and a world of sort of reaching out to people.

AMANPOUR: He hasn't always won plaudits and his time during the dirty war in Argentina has been, you know, on many people's minds.

What did he have to say about that?

MARTIN: He said he made rash and authoritarian decisions that came across to people as implying that he was a right-winger. But he says bluntly in our interview, I've never been a right-winger. And so what he says is, you know, I made hasty decisions; I should never make decisions without sort of considering things. And he regrets that.

So it's a remarkably candid admission. It's not saying mistakes were made or I could have done things differently or I'm sorry if I hurt people. He's saying, you know, I did a bad job.

And he even says to make me Jesuit provincial at age 36 was, to quote him, "crazy."

AMANPOUR: And does he get into details about other things which have really plagued the Catholic Church, the sexual abuse crises, the corruption crisis, which he's even talked about and says he wants to wipe clean?

MARTIN: We had suggested, you know, in our questions to talk about the sex abuse crisis. But that isn't touched upon.

But he does talk about reform of the curia. And one of the quotes he has is, "I want true consultations, not fake consultations."

He doesn't want people to just sort of make suggestions for the sake of making suggestions. He's meeting with this group of eight cardinals, this next month, actually. And he's really open to change. He really wants to change this place.

AMANPOUR: Well, Father Martin, it's really fascinating. Everybody is going to be reading this interview, all 12,000 words of it. And it's an amazing window and insight into the new pope.

Thank you very much for being with me.

MARTIN: My pleasure.

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AMANPOUR: And while Pope Francis speaks of tolerance, an act of extreme intolerance is being met with outrage in Greece. Flowers and other memorials mark the spot on a street in Athens where musician Pavlos Thesas (ph), an outspoken anti-Fascist, was stabbed to death.

It happened when he and his friends were attacked by 30 supporters of the far right Golden Dawn party. The brutal crime sparked violent demonstrations and a suspect, a self-confessed party member, was arrested. For its part, Golden Dawn, Greece's fastest growing political power, has denied any role in the murder. But that hasn't stopped calls to ban the party and it appears the government is listening.

And after a break, is there a climate for revolution? The answer and the numbers may surprise you.

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AMANPOUR: And finally, a note about tomorrow, when we'll bring you our interview with Ertharin Cousin, executive director of the United Nations' World Food Program. She'll tell us about the desperate shortages facing Syrian civilians and the ever-growing humanitarian catastrophe there.

Now she also believes that what drives the vast majority of wars around the world is people merely trying to feed their families. So imagine a world where climate change and a dwindling water supply may have helped fuel Syria's civil war.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): Five years before Syria was awash in sectarian bloodshed, it was in the midst of a devastating drought, one of the worst in modern times, and the numbers are staggering.

According to the Center for Climate and Security, from 2006 to 2011, the unprecedented drought scorched 60 percent of Syria's land and it killed 80 percent of the livestock in some regions, putting three-quarters of the farmers out of work and ultimately displacing 1.5 million people.

And that was before the bloody conflict that has so far scattered 4 million people inside the country and sent 2 million refugees streaming across Syria's borders.

While no one's claiming a direct cause and effect, the drought did bring on the diaspora from dying farms to overcrowded cities and thereby put enormous economic and social pressure on an already fractious society.

And Syria is far from an isolated case. Scientists warn that with severe water shortages in Yemen and other countries in the region, the climate of violent revolution may spread.

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AMANPOUR: And now imagine this: water was also the stumbling block in peace talks between Israel and Syria 13 years ago. That's when Bashar al-Assad's father, Hafez al-Assad, insisted on retaining a tiny stretch of the Sea of Galilee, or the Kinneret, as the Israelis call it, and which provides Israel with much of its water now. In fact, then Prime Minister Ehud Barak ran on the campaign slogan, "No Syrian soldiers will splash their feet in the Kinneret."

And that's it for our program tonight. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

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