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Amanpour

French President Hollande on Syria; Sounding the Alarm on Terror in Africa; Imagine a World

Aired September 24, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

The diplomatic world is abuzz with the possibility that this could be the moment to chart a new course between the United States, the West and Iran. The new Iranian president, Hassan Rouhani, has arrived to join world leaders, taking the podium at the annual United Nations General Assembly right here in New York.

He vows to present what he calls the true face of Iran. And everyone wants to know whether his overtures mark an actual change in substance as well as in style after eight antagonistic years of his predecessor, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

President Obama in his address to the assembly earlier today said that he was, quote, "encouraged" that the Iranian people had given President Rouhani a mandate for more moderate course. And President Obama said that he had instructed his secretary of state, John Kerry, to lead negotiations with Iran on the nuclear issue.

And I also sit down with Mr. Rouhani after his address to explore the possibility of a new way forward. I'll have that interview on this program tomorrow.

But tonight, my exclusive interview with French President Francois Hollande. I spoke to him as he prepared for his U.N. address about what he hopes to hear from Rouhani when they meet here on the nuclear issue and on ending the war in Syria.

I also asked Mr. Hollande about France's role in combating terror in Africa because among the many victims of that brazen attack in Kenya are two French citizens. I asked about France's robust intervention around the world including Syria.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Mr. President, welcome to New York. Welcome to our program. Thank you for joining me.

PRES. FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, FRANCE (speaking French): Thank you for your invitation.

AMANPOUR: AMANPOUR: France was very proactive, calling for Assad to step down, even agreeing -- you agreed to go militarily to deal with the horror of the chemical attack of August 21st.

What is your reaction now that the U.S. didn't go, the British and the U.S. decided to turn it over to their elected parliaments and they didn't get the go-ahead. But you were prepared to go.

Do you think there should have been punishment for the attack on August 21st, the chemical attack?

HOLLANDE (through translator): France was ready. I said it -- as I said, to punish, to sanction the Syrian regime, given that they used chemical weapons and it is because there was this pressure from the U.S., from France.

Now the Russians took the initiative to look for an agreement. This agreement has been done. It now enables us to consider a different solution, different than the military solution that we considered.

This solution is a resolution by the U.N. Security Council in the coming days that should enable us to implement the agreement signed between the U.S. and the Russians on this issue of chemical weapons, that is the destruction of the chemical stockpiles.

AMANPOUR: Should there be a military component?

Should it be enforceable by military action if they don't comply?

Will France go for a military component to the resolution?

HOLLANDE (through translator): A resolution without sanctions whatsoever, a resolution that would not consider any answer to a breach by the Syrian regime in terms of the control and the destruction of chemical weapons, this would have no scope whatsoever, no punch.

So France is looking for a resolution that must be binding, enforceable, so that in case of a breach, we can could go back to the Security Council and allow it to take sanctions.

So, yes, the resolution, a quick one, yes, we would like the agreement between the U.S. and the Russians to be translated, this agreement in order to destroy chemical weapons, but with a requirement, a requirement for a sanction in case of breach.

AMANPOUR: Well, the U.S. doesn't seem to be going for that. Everything it says seems to be that it's not going to ask for a military or a coercive component. The Russians say they don't want that.

Do you think there will be a veto?

HOLLANDE (through translator): No. All we have to do is to hold the Russians accountable. They have to stick to what they said. They said there would be implementation, control of the chemical weapons and that they must be indeed a possibility of returning to Chapter 7 (ph). But we may not need to turn to Chapter 7 (ph) immediately.

What we need is the possibility of this sanction in case of a breach on behalf of the Syrian regime. So I believe that the solution that we're putting forward, which is a demanding solution, and it means to have -- the Security Council must be in a position to act and to adopt sanctions if there is a breach.

We also need to make sure now those responsible can be referred to justice. All of that has to be in the next resolution and both the Russians and the U.S. can see in that solution the implementation of the agreement that they've signed.

AMANPOUR: France seems to be very forward leaning. I am going to use other people's language, not mine.

During the time of the Iraq War, France was called "cheese-eating surrender monkeys."

I'm sorry, that's not my -- not my term.

French fries were called "freedom fries."

Your policy seems to be a real reversal of what was going on during the Iraq War. You seem to be really willing to project French power where you think it's necessary around the world.

Why is that?

And do you feel that you're filling a gap, as the United States sort of moves back a little bit?

HOLLANDE (through translator): But France doesn't want to get involved in any kind of adventure or initiative. I was proud that my country did not take part to what happened in Iraq. I considered this was not our role and that there was no truth about the weapons of mass destruction.

But here we're talking about 120,000 people dead in two and a half years, 2 million refugees, 18,000 dead in a year, also adding to one another, the forces of the regime, al Qaeda, as well, which is now in Syria.

And in the middle, the democratic coalition which cannot find a political solution. So it is urgent that we act.

Of course it is about fighting the use of chemical weapons, as will be done at the Security Council anytime soon. But it is also about finding a political solution.

And the role of France is not to apply conditions all around the world. We have no intent of influencing or defending commercial or trade interests.

What we are fighting for are those principles, values. This is what gives France its specificity (ph) in the international family.

So what I am fighting for regarding Syria is a political solution. But if they're not, with necessary pressure and but all the threats regarding the use of chemical weapons, we would not be where we are.

So we will sort out the issue of chemical weapons within a couple of days. But we cannot satisfy ourselves with that single solution. We have to find a political solution in order to put an end to what is the worst massacre since the beginning of the century.

AMANPOUR: Iran is an actor. Iran, by all accounts, has military personnel inside Syria, helping and directing the war on behalf of President Assad. You will meet President Rouhani today.

What are you going to tell him about Syria, about Iran's role in a political solution?

What are the conditions?

What does Iran have to agree to?

HOLLANDE (through translator): We all know the bond between Iran and the Syrian regime. So we need to talk to Iran.

Even more so, given that President Rouhani made a number of gestures, maybe not overtly so far, but it is some sort of an opening regarding Syria, we'll be telling him that we should work on in Geneva to conference.

The only purpose will be to organize the political solution, the transition that he's putting in place an interim government, that should include all the forces that will build the Syria of tomorrow.

And even he can attend the conference, if that country agrees to the necessity of finding a political solution.

And it is also in Iran's interests not to be isolated because of Syria as well.

AMANPOUR: And that includes Iran having to agree to what the conference calls for, and that is eventually President Assad stepping down and moving out, moving away from the political dynamic?

So Iran has to agree to that?

HOLLANDE (through translator): The purpose of Geneva, as we have said, is that Bashar al-Assad can go and that there is a government that would represent all the Syrian components, all political forces willing to build the Syria of tomorrow, so that all of that can be put in place.

So if Iran agrees upon that goal, Iran is welcome.

On the other hand, if Iran wants, at any price, to keep the regime in place, I cannot imagine how this country could attend Geneva 2.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you about Bashar al-Assad. Again, you, the French yourself, the British prime minister, the American president, Barack Obama, for two years have been saying Bashar al-Assad must go. You've said it again now.

But isn't Bashar al-Assad necessary?

Isn't he actually going to have to stay in order to resolve this chemical weapons deal?

Is he not now inevitably a partner in getting rid of these chemical weapons?

HOLLANDE (through translator): Syria is the partner. It is Syria today which holds chemical weapons and must destroy them. A couple of days ago, both in the American and the French press, Bashar al-Assad was saying that he didn't have chemical weapons, there were no such weapons in Syria.

And now, he says there are.

So he cannot be a trustworthy partner for many months. It cannot be an opportunity for Bashar al-Assad to stay as the leader of Syria. This issue, dealing with the chemical weapons, must also be a step to allow for the political solution, that is a government that represents all of the Syrian communities.

I believe that we cannot use the chemical agreement in order to maintain this regime.

AMANPOUR: And on the issue of nuclear program with Iran, where do you see the possibility of compromise?

Can there be a win-win situation?

Is this a last chance, do you think, for some kind of resolution of this crisis, really?

HOLLANDE (through translator): It's been ongoing for 10 years. The negotiations have been in a deadlock for 10 years. And each day, each extra day is an extra threat in terms of the answer that will come at some point.

And we have to keep that in mind. The new president made a number of statements which I find of opening, development. And I think that, here again, we have to be hold him to his word.

And I'll -- when I see him today, I will be telling him a simple thing: if Iran is willing to be negotiate, to give up on its military nuclear program they get a single (ph) nuclear program to be accepted, then there is a possible solution.

On the other hand, if the deadlock remains, what will happen, more and more sanctions, burdensome for the Iranian economy and, at some point, the threat of an operation.

We all are aware of that. So from that point, starting point, it is reasonable to find a compromise. So the Iranian president has to move from words to deeds.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And as I said earlier, tomorrow on this program, my interview with the Iranian president, Hassan Rouhani.

Back in Tehran, the Jewish community -- small, but nonetheless, the largest in the region outside of Israel -- is celebration the festival of Sukkoth with song and prayer and a new sense of optimism, not only because President Rouhani wished them a Happy New Year on Rosh Hashanah, but also knowing that Iran's only Jewish member of parliament is traveling with him to the U.N., something that would have been unthinkable when Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was president.

Now when we come back, I have more of my interview with President Hollande. I dig into his reasons for an assertive foreign policy, terror and Africa, next.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back. The deadly attack in that mall in Kenya took the lives of 72 people; two of the victims were French. Now throughout his presidency, French President Francois Hollande has leaned in to take the fight to the terrorists and Al Qaeda franchises in Africa.

Now in the context of the Kenya massacre, he tells me about his nation's assertive stance.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you first your reaction to the terrible events in Kenya, in Nairobi. I know France lost some people, some citizens there.

What is your reaction to what happened?

HOLLANDE (through translator): Two French fellow citizens have died. They've been murdered by terrorists.

It is very painful for us. I have spoken to the father, the husband of these two ladies, the other day and we stand by them. We stand by all the victims because we know that terrorism is based in Africa; it comes from Somalia, and we have to keep fighting terrorism.

This is the reason why France took its part, including on the occasion of its intervention, together with the African forces, in order to eradicate terrorism in the Sahel region.

But terrorism is everywhere where there is chaos. In Somalia, there's still chaos, and terrorism can grow. And we can see that they're striking everywhere.

AMANPOUR: Are they on the rise or do you think you have them on the run?

HOLLANDE (through translator): I believe that in Somalia, they are on the decline, (inaudible) that the African forces have warned and they were defeated, but this is precisely because they are on a defensive. But they are attacking Nairobi and Kenya, because they know how Kenya has been active and the role they've been playing in Somalia.

In Western Africa, in other places, they are declining, but they can still strike. We've seen that in Nigeria, in Niger a couple of months ago.

So we should not believe that we are done with terrorism simply because we had a number of victories in Somalia or in other places, even more so, given that there are countries, like Libya, which are some sort of safe havens for terrorists, the -- some trafficking, there are some weapons.

So in Libya, they can organize a number of factions. So it is for us to organize, to coordinate, to have a strategy in order to tackle terrorism.

AMANPOUR: France famously went into Mali. You did it fairly cost- free. I know some soldiers died, but not too many, thank goodness. And you were able to pave the way for democratic elections.

Do you consider that a success?

I know you're planning to pull out your troops there.

Is it over in Mali or is this something that could grow again?

HOLLANDE: These operations have been successful in Mali. First of all, because it is something that the Africans themselves wanted. France would not have gone to Mali alone. We were asked to go there. And we did that within the U.N. framework, with an international mandate.

Also, it was cooperation between African forces and European forces, including French ones. So we had a very short period of time to organize our intervention, a couple of hours. I took this decision. But we managed to succeed over terrorism in Mali, to secure the territory and to enable Mali to have a democratic convention.

And the elections were held on the agreed date. And we know these have been successful with a high level of participation and a very high school (ph) for a number of votes for the president elected.

So we show there that when we have a coordinated action, resolute action, when we have the support of the African forces for the Sahel, we can succeed.

AMANPOUR: You mention Libya. France, obviously, along with Britain, really took the lead and America followed, the famous lead from behind; France and Britain led from the front.

But there's been quite a lot of worry and criticism of the result now, because, as you say, it's a haven, it's a transit point, it's awash in weapons and militias who are not under central government control.

Does that concern you about the idea of intervention, because -- do you consider Libya a success or is there a lot more work to be done there?

HOLLANDE (through translator): The military operations have been successful given that it enabled the opposition to win, to topple Gaddafi and organize elections. But unfortunately, there was not the necessary follow up, that is, the coordinated action of the allies so that Libya could rebuild itself, build economically, politically, but also in terms of security.

I, therefore, propose that France -- but not just France, a number of major countries -- could bring a much stronger cooperation compared to what's been done before, cooperation and support to the Libyan leaders so that it can organize security everywhere.

And they have to eradicate crooks in particular in the south, because they have weapons. They can export them, they can use them. And therefore, we must provide the Libyan police, the army, as well, all the necessary support.

AMANPOUR: And, finally, Angela Merkel, the chancellor of Germany, won a historic new term.

What is your reaction to that?

Of course the French people overwhelmingly backed her, thinking that her victory would be good for France.

HOLLANDE (through translator): It put it -- her economy on track. Of course, she's not the only one to have done it. The -- it is also due to her predecessors, who had started a number of reforms on competitiveness.

The German people gave her a mandate to (inaudible) with what coalition yet. But I want France and Germany to take an initiative within the coming weeks so that (inaudible) which is out of the Eurozone crisis can continue its reforms and at the same time support further growth and employment and have some joint policies on the energy, (inaudible) economy.

And France and Germany have a special responsibility in Europe. And as it happens, Ms. Merkel and myself, we have another four years in our mandate so we can work together and even though we have some different political background, we certainly want a Europe to be at the forefront.

And for too long both herself and myself suffered from the image of a Europe in crisis, a Europe that was being looked at negatively.

AMANPOUR: Mr. President, thank you, on that optimistic note.

HOLLANDE: Merci.

AMANPOUR: Thank you for joining me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: French President Francois Hollande.

Now after a break, we'll turn once more to the tragedy in Kenya, where certain words or not knowing them could get you killed. Dorcas Mwangi survived the slaughter, and this morning she told CNN how the gunmen chillingly selected and separated so-called infidels as their targets and let those who they thought were true Muslim believers, they said, live.

Listen to how Dorcas made it out alive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DORCAS MWANGI, WESTLAKE MALL ATTACK SURVIVOR: (Inaudible) was certainly a Muslim prayer. He was informed that by a casualty in hospital that they were shooting non-Muslims. They were shooting those that did not know the Shahab (ph) prayer. So my brother sent me that prayer to memorize, which I did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Remarkable, really, and it truly takes the phrase "hate speech" to new depths.

And when we come back, how other words written by someone who didn't survive live on to offer comfort and hope, after a break.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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AMANPOUR: And finally, after the deadly mall slaughter in Kenya, how can we feel anything but anguish for all the victims, from all over the world, including an irreplaceable African voice?

Imagine a world without the poetry and the conscience of Kofi Awoonor, a cultural hero in his native Ghana, he was in Kenya to attend a literary festival when he was killed in that terror attack. And it also found his son wounded.

Now his country and the rest of Africa mourn this remarkable man. He was a novelist, a scholar, activist and a diplomat who once, in fact, represented Ghana here at the United Nations.

But his poetry is his greatest legacy, drawn from the songs of his own Ewe (ph) people. One of his most recent poems contains these moving and prophetic words:

"And Death, when he comes to the door with his own inimitable calling card, shall find a homestead resurrected with laughter and dance, and a festival of the meat of the young lamb and the red porridge of the new corn."

That's it for our program tonight. And remember, you can always contact us at amanpour.com. Follow me on Twitter and Facebook and thanks for watching. Goodbye from New York.

END