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Amanpour

Egypt Divided; Libya: The Birth Pains of a New State; Imagine a World

Aired September 26, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

With the Iranian president Hassan Rouhani very much the headline act at the United Nations General Assembly here in New York, the other big story, efforts to hash out an agreement on Syria's chemical weapons, was somewhat overshadowed; and also the notion of a political resolution to this violent outpost of the Arab Spring continues to languish.

It is perhaps easy to forget that the protesters who first took to the streets against Bashar al-Assad's regime more than two years ago were inspired by Arab Spring protests in other countries, countries which are having their own challenges translating revolutions into working civil societies.

And tonight, I interviewed two major players in the ongoing drama of that transition to democracy. In Libya these scenes of celebration as the 42-year rule of Moammar Gadhafi came to an end are a distant memory as the country struggles to rein in militia groups that continue to menace the country.

In a moment, I asked Prime Minister Ali Zeidan whether his country is in danger of imploding.

But first to Egypt, where this week a court banned the activities of the Muslim Brotherhood and froze its finances. The move is the latest in a massive crackdown, not just on the Muslim Brotherhood, but also on liberals, on journalists and human rights activists and on dissent in general.

All of that began after the military ousted President Mohammed Morsy following mass protests at the end of June. Six weeks later, nearly 1,000 people were killed when police dispersed their sit-in camps in Cairo. Egypt was promised a swift return to democracy. Instead, it's back under an official state of emergency.

So has the country returned to the bad old days? Or is a real reset on the horizon?

I asked the strategic adviser to the interim president Adly Mansour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Elmostafa Hegazy, welcome. Thank you for joining me.

ELMOSTAFA HEGAZY, POLITICAL AND STRATEGIC ADVISER TO THE PRESIDENT OF EGYPT: Thank you, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: There was a clear promise to restore Egypt to democracy.

So when can you tell us that there will be new elections?

Will Mr. Mansour run? Will General al-Sisi run?

When will the whole constitutional process that was promised on July 3rd and 4th and in the days thereafter actually start to be visible.

HEGAZY: The parliamentary elections would be early 2014 --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- January, February?

HEGAZY: I think January would be -- it's the start of the process, not necessarily that we have the parliament by that time. It's the end of the referendum would be probably the end of the summer. So the referendum on the constitution.

Once we have the constitution in place, we will be calling for parliamentary elections in about a week or so. And then we start the process of parliamentary elections for another two months or more. So we're looking at the end of parliamentary elections probably towards the end of March, early April.

AMANPOUR: So do you envision presidential elections next summer?

HEGAZY: Yes, pretty much.

AMANPOUR: It obviously can't come as much surprise to you that there has been an enormous amount of anxiety and criticism and worry now in Egypt, even amongst the people who supported you, even those who said this is what the people want, that we want to go into the streets and we want an end to the Muslim Brotherhood and that kind of extremism.

Now they're saying that the very things that they criticized the Muslim Brotherhood about you are doing, the representation, the arrest of journalists, the harassment of human rights activists. People are saying it is worse than the bad old days.

HEGAZY: I think this is what I call a pretty linear thinking, which is having some --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Would you say it's a wrong thinking?

HEGAZY: Yes, I believe so. It's not very --

AMANPOUR: I mean, I have colleagues who are going to jail, journalist, human rights activists.

HEGAZY: Yes, but let's be precise about what kind of situation we're having now which is, first of all, we have an administration in place that has been in its entirety alienated by the Mubarak regime or the Muslim Brotherhood regime.

And we came with the will of the people to be more of the custodians of making sure that what happened at the Mubarak time and the Morsy time not to be repeated again.

But we have to know --

AMANPOUR: They say it is being repeated and it was -- they say look at the state of emergency that's being (inaudible).

HEGAZY: Yes, that's a good point. I lived in Los Angeles at a time that we had a situation for police brutality that ended up in riots in the streets. And we had emergency laws in Los Angeles by the time. And we have the National Guards in the street.

You wouldn't say that because of this --

AMANPOUR: Are you comparing L.A. to what's happening in Egypt right now?

HEGAZY: In a way, that what happened in a week could have been extended in Cairo for about a month or so. But what I'm trying to say, that emergency laws got its own reasons because we have to have a curfew in place in order to maintain the security of our people and the security of other people, like the journalists and others.

So if you have this, I would say, you're mandated to have a --

AMANPOUR: So I don't believe --

HEGAZY: -- to make sure that you have to have emergency law in place. So it's not for the sake of emergency law itself. As I said, sometimes desperate times requires desperate measures, like what happened in Los Angeles, like what happened in Cairo.

AMANPOUR: Right, I see the comparison you're trying to make. But you're talking about putting journalists in jail as a -- I think I hear you say -- for their own security.

This is very, very serious (inaudible) happening now.

HEGAZY: No, I haven't been saying this.

AMANPOUR: And I would like to have an answer as to why the very people who supported you are now worried and see the system turning against them, liberals, journalists, human rights activists, people who say we may not have been able to speak freely under the Muslim Brotherhood, and we can't speak freely now under this new interim government.

HEGAZY: I think, first of all, this is too general a statement and I think this statement --

AMANPOUR: The United States is saying that. Europe is saying that.

HEGAZY: No, it does not apply to all of the -- I would say -- the incidents, because we've been talking to U.S. officials. We've been talking to European officials. And we've been very close to the incidents that are happening, even with some journalists.

And I think some of those happened because there's been violations of the law probably by the curfew times or so. And it's not like you're trying -- or maybe it's been portrayed in a certain way like, you know, this is like, you know, a tyranny reestablishing itself. This is not the case.

AMANPOUR: But you said it. People are saying that.

HEGAZY: No, no; this is not the case. The case is that we have a certain security situation that my dictate, having a curfew for instance as one of the instruments in order to maintain security, it --

AMANPOUR: The curfew, it's an inability to criticize.

HEGAZY: No, no; that's not the case.

AMANPOUR: Well.

HEGAZY: No, that's not the case in any way.

AMANPOUR: It is.

HEGAZY: Not the case, because you have -- not only journalists, you have people from the opposition, which is not only the opposition, people are trying to put Egypt on pause where the Muslim Brotherhood, those people are now criticizing the government; they're having marches in the streets.

They're talking to journalists through foreign officials. And no one is in any ways chasing them or detaining them.

So it's not --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Mr. Hegazy.

HEGAZY: Let's not make it like the head of a government is trying --

AMANPOUR: Mr. Hegazy, those very people are being swept up and put in jail. The Muslim Brotherhood, people who you just referred to are in jail, all the people we used to talk to are in jail.

HEGAZY: No, no. This is -- this is too general because we have --

AMANPOUR: They are.

HEGAZY: -- their own historical leaders who's been inciting violence.

AMANPOUR: The spokespeople are in jail. The people I used to call and talk to --

HEGAZY: -- instigating violence. Those are the people in jail. We are very keen to be the custodians of freedom of expressions, freedom of speech and freedom of protesting in any ways, provided there is no violence in it. And that's exactly the case that might cause some people to be in a way legally prosecuted because of instigating violence or practicing violence.

AMANPOUR: So where does it get you as a nation to once again ban the Muslim Brotherhood?

And I ask you because after July 3rd, there was a lot of talk from your own interim leaders that we actually want the Muslim Brotherhood to be part of the new democracy. You know, you went bent over backwards to say you wanted them in the system.

And yet the facts on the ground show precisely the opposite of what you said, that they have systematically been arrested, that their press has been closed down. Obviously the president has been arrested, all his top ministers and people have been arrested. As I say, the top spokespeople have been arrested.

Is the Muslim Brotherhood banned?

HEGAZY: No. It's -- they have to be legalized. No one would be banned in Egypt unless the law bans his own activity. Sometimes maybe I would say in a slogan way of saying that there have been a banned organization.

In Muslim Brotherhood as an organization has never been a legal organization. It has been only inane, the slogan that's called the MBs, but all the time, as you said, they've been running as independent under those kind of theme or under this kind of slogan.

AMANPOUR: Where is President Morsy?

HEGAZY: He's in custody.

AMANPOUR: Where is he?

HEGAZY: In a safe place.

AMANPOUR: Has he had access to lawyers?

HEGAZY: I think he does.

AMANPOUR: Can you -- do you know for sure? Because his family say he doesn't.

HEGAZY: Oh, no. He does.

AMANPOUR: Will it be a military trial?

HEGAZY: No.

AMANPOUR: When will the --

HEGAZY: It's a civil trial. It's happening as we speak. It's not a trial. We have the process --

AMANPOUR: In secret?

HEGAZY: Not the trial.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: When is the trial?

HEGAZY: The trial will happen after the investigation with the ministry.

AMANPOUR: When do you think that might happen?

HEGAZY: It's in the hand of their -- of the Egyptian judicial system.

AMANPOUR: And it'll be a public trial?

HEGAZY: Yes. Yes.

AMANPOUR: People look back at this amazing thing that happened in Tahrir Square in, you know, spring of 2011. And they wonder, has that all been lost? And how can you harness again? How can Egypt recover the promise of that kind of desire for freedom and reform and democracy?

HEGAZY: There is a huge difference between the time that you're talking about, which is the time of Morsy and now.

Once we know that we have some or a certain faction, which is not, I would say, aligned with Egyptians' view to the future, you have a golden opportunity; it's about time for you to join Egyptians, not the other way around. It's a golden opportunity that they can capture, they can seize the moment, as Richard Nixon has said before, and it's a moment to seize.

AMANPOUR: Mr. Hegazy, thank you very much for joining me.

HEGAZY: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And while Egypt struggles, so, too, does neighboring Libya, who, with the help of NATO, finally got rid of the dictator Moammar Gadhafi. That was two years ago. But today, for all of its vast oil wealth, Libya has yet to find its bearings or its security.

Four decades of dictatorship left the system in tatters. I asked Prime Minister Ali Zeidan is Libya failing? His answer will surprise you.

but before we take a break, another view of the country from its acclaimed novelist, Ibrahim al-Kony (ph), in language that is almost like haiku, he chronicles the mystery and the meaning of the desert in his book, "Sleepless Eye." A Tuareg who grew up in the Libyan desert, al-Kony (ph) sees more than a wasteland there. He sees a land of beauty and freedom.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Now the fall of Libya's despotic ruler, Moammar Gadhafi, was one of the Arab Spring's triumphs against dictatorship. Since then, though, a very different moment has become emblematic of Libya. The tragic death of Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other Americans in attack by Islamist extremists on the U.S. compound in Benghazi last year.

It was the moment when Libya seemed to pass from rising young democracy to fractious and possibly failing state.

Ali Zeidan is the prime minister of Libya. For decades he was a prominent voice in the fight against Gadhafi. Now he's faced with the herculean task of rebuilding the country literally from scratch, trying to rein in the armed militias that still flood the streets to impose a measure of law and order on the anarchy that was left behind by Gadhafi and his dictatorship.

I spoke with Mr. Zeidan in New York and he told me that Libya is still very much a work in progress.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Prime Minister, welcome.

Thank you for joining me.

ALI ZEIDAN, LIBYAN PRIME MINSTER (through translator): Thank you so much, ma'am.

AMANPOUR: You know, everybody looks at Libya as a template, an example, for the post-Arab Spring world. And it doesn't look good. It looks like it's on the way to becoming a failed state awash in weapons, awash in militias. We don't know whether the militias are working for the government or the government is working for the militias.

Your oil industry, which is your lifeline, is shut down.

Is Libya a failing state?

(OFF CAMERA REMARKS)

ZEIDAN (through translator): Libya is not a failing state. The state of Libya doesn't exist yet. We are trying to create a state. And we are not ashamed of that.

The outside world believes that Libya is failing, but Libya was destroyed by Gaddafi for 42 years and was destroyed by a full year of civil war. And that's why we are trying to rebuild it.

As for the oil, oil is not completely shut down. Oil now is flowing by 40 to 50 percent. And we are hopeful that within a few days, after some attempts from us, that full production will come back.

AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you about that, because, obviously, various groups, the militia, rebels, whatever you want to call them, have blockaded the main terminals and it has caused your output to plummet. There have been reports that you have tried to pay off those rebels in exchange for ending this blockade.

How are you going to end it and have you tried to pay them off?

ZEIDAN (through translator): We never tried to pay another off because this is immoral and it doesn't -- it is inappropriate for a state to do so.

The second thing is that we are trying through the tribes -- the tribal connections to stay in touch with them to resolve the matter peacefully. But if it gets to at this end, the state will act as a state and will impose and enforce the rule of law against those who will violate it.

AMANPOUR: Those are fighting words.

Do you mean a military action?

Do you mean a security force action?

ZEIDAN (through translator): Everything is possible. Everything is possible, everything that could lead to bring things back to normal with the least damage possible, we'll do.

AMANPOUR: You recently went to visit General al-Sisi in Egypt and there was a lot of controversy in Tripoli after that visit.

ZEIDAN: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Are you glad that the Muslim Brotherhood there was defeated, that the Egyptian military stopped that experiment?

ZEIDAN: I am not happy and I'm not sad. This is an Egyptian internal matter. I cannot have a say in that. All I can say is to bless the choice of the Egyptian people.

I went to Egypt because Egypt is a neighboring state and it's important for us to keep normal relations or good relations with Egypt. It has to be a relationship based on cooperation that serves the interests of both nations and is conducive for development in both countries.

AMANPOUR: Well, of course, Mr. Morsy, the president, the elected president, is in prison and there are still no charges against him. I bring that up because I want to ask you what you really think about the democratic project in your region.

People look at Libya. And they say, oh, my goodness, look at what's happened. We cannot intervene in Syria. It will just become the same kind of mess.

What's your answer to that?

ZEIDAN: Democracy is a process, an accumulation. Accumulation takes years and months. It doesn't happen overnight. If the world believes that after 42 years of this -- of dictatorship and despotism and after two years of civil war that democracy can come within a month, that's an illusion.

As for Egypt, I can practice democracy in my country, but I cannot interfere with others' affairs. If, in Egypt, all sides try to keep cooperation with one another, Egypt wouldn't have been in this situation.

Everybody insisted on their position and that's why things went to what they are now.

AMANPOUR: A lot of people are looking at Libya and the accountability of the former regime. Gaddafi's son, Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, is on trial. And the ICC, the International Criminal Court, wants you to hand him over.

Why would you not do that?

ZEIDAN: We believe that the trial of Saif al-Islam Gaddafi is an internal Libyan affair. Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, what he did, he did against the Libyan people and he must be tried fairly for that. And this will happen.

AMANPOUR: Is he in your custody?

Is he even in government custody?

ZEIDAN: Yes, he is.

AMANPOUR: So no question, you're not handing him over?

ZEIDAN: No.

AMANPOUR: Let's just move on to the issue of Benghazi and what happened there September 11th, 2012.

The attackers have been indicted and yet they remain at large in Libya.

Don't you think the U.S. is within its rights to snatch them, grab them and take them?

ZEIDAN: We are in close cooperation with the United States. We arrested some suspects and they are under investigation. And they named some other suspects.

Now, there have been indictments issued against them and they are a small number. We are in cooperation in that regard with the United States and we will continue to cooperate to reach those people and present them to justice.

What needs to be done is those people who killed Mr. Christopher to be prosecuted and will be punished duly.

AMANPOUR: The United States and Russia have come up with a deal to disarm Syria of its chemical weapons. Now, Libya went through this, starting in 2003. And nearly, you know, more than 10 years later, there are still stockpiles being discovered and only about 40 percent of the stockpiles have been destroyed.

Give me an idea of how difficult it is and it will be to disarm Syria, from your experience, from the Libyan experience.

ZEIDAN: Of course, it is not an easy thing. And it is costly. It's about financial costs. It requires a high level of technology. This is why it's difficult.

In Libya, we are working in concrete steps to destroy all the chemical weapons in cooperation with some countries like the United States and Germany. And we have taken reasonable steps in that regard.

AMANPOUR: Are you confident that the government has control of the chemical weapons in your country?

ZEIDAN: Yes. We are doing every effort to control the chemical weapons. They're -- they are under surveillance since June, 2011. We started the cooperation with the United States while Gaddafi was still occupying some parts of the country.

Some technical missions came and went behind the fighting lines to maintain surveillance on the chemical weapons. There is hefty security measures around those storehouses.

The whole world must cooperate to destroy chemical weapons and to disarm countries from illegal weapons because they constitute a danger to the international peace. All countries have to cooperate in that regard.

AMANPOUR: Prime Minister Zeidan, thank you very much for joining me.

ZEIDAN: I thank you so much, ma'am, for this interview. A wonderful interview. And I wish you a nice day.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And while other prime ministers, as well as kings and presidents continue to gather here in New York this week, imagine another kind of diplomatic mission where different cultures made beautiful music together. We'll "Take the A Train" to Damascus, to Kabul and beyond when we come back.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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AMANPOUR: And finally, in the midst of what we like to call the annual under madness here in New York, gridlock traffic, a glut of world leaders at the United Nations and the whole diplomatic in crowd there, it's worth nothing, as we have done many times on this program, that diplomacy can take other forms and music is one of the most universal.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Last year we showed you former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright beating the drums for jazz diplomatically at Washington's Kennedy Center.

It's a tradition that goes back half a century, to the remarkable journey of one of the world's great jazz composers and diplomats.

Imagine a world where you can "Take the A Train" all the way to Kabul. Fifty years ago this month, the legendary Duke Ellington and his orchestra began a magical musical tour from Syria to Afghanistan and it was sponsored by the U.S. State Department.

Even as the fight for civil rights was raging here in America, the Duke and his quintessentially American sound criss-crossed the region, bringing jazz and goodwill to countries which even then were torn by war and revolutionary change.

As this remarkable newsreel shows, the Duke and his band played Baghdad, a tough house even then, because it was in the throes of a military coup.

The Duke also wowed them in India and Pakistan, two bitter rivals who'd be at war only two years later.

And in Iran, just five months after massive protests against the arrest of a then-obscure cleric known as Ayatollah Khomeini, he played to thousands in a packed stadium in the city of Abadan.

The Duke didn't hesitate to use his microphone to speak out against racial injustice back home, but for two months on his diplomatic caravan, he not only brought his own music, but he was deeply influenced by the sounds of the lands he visited.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Music and diplomacy at their finest and let's hope that the diplomacy at this year's U.N. meeting resolves some of the most dangerous problems the world faces.

That's it for tonight's program. Meantime, you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com. Thanks for watching and goodbye from New York.

END