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Amanpour

Iranian President Hassan Rouhani; Hollande on Syria; Imagine a World

Aired September 27, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, I'm Christiane Amanpour, and welcome to the special weekend edition of our program, when we take another look at two of the extraordinary firsts from earlier this week, two interviews with two heads of state never before interviewed here in the United States, Iranian President Hassan Rouhani and French President Francois Hollande.

And what a week it was. Scores of foreign leaders descended on New York for the annual meeting of the United Nations General Assembly. As a rare window of opportunity opened over Iran nuclear negotiations, with an unprecedented meeting between U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry and the Iran foreign minister, Javad Zarif.

Now President Rouhani says that he would like to see a deal on his country's nuclear program within months. Meantime, the West appeared to soften its stance on Iran, joining in the effort to disarm Syria of its chemical weapons and to also join the effort to find a political resolution there.

Later in the program, you'll see my exclusive interview with French President Hollande, who told me that Iran could be a player, but only if it agrees that its key ally, Bashar al-Assad, will have to go as part of any political transition.

Hollande, unlike the U.S. President Barack Obama, did meet directly with the Iranian president to discuss progress of nuclear negotiations.

And so first, we go to President Hassan Rouhani himself in his first interview on American soil.

Rouhani is seen as a moderate reformer and his surprise victory in this year's presidential elections in Iran marked a sharp turn from the bluster and bombast of the former president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

We talked extensively about what President Obama says will be his most important goal for the rest of his term in office, and that is to resolve Iran's nuclear crisis with the West.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Mr. President, welcome to the program. Thank you for joining us.

HASSAN ROUHANI, IRANIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): I thank your program and you for preparing this interview.

AMANPOUR: There was a lot of expectation, maybe too high expectations, that you and President Obama might at least shake hands today at the United Nations.

Nobody thought there was going to be a formal meeting, but perhaps that you would at least say hello, shake hands, break the ice.

But you didn't. Why didn't you?

ROUHANI (through translator): There were some talks about it, in fact, to perhaps arrange for a meeting between President Obama and myself so that, given the opportunity, we can talk with each other.

And the preparation for the work was done a bit as well. The United States declared its interest in having such a meeting and, in principle, Iran could have, under certain circumstances, allowed for it to happen.

But I believe that we didn't have sufficient time to really coordinate the meeting to the full extent that we needed to.

But speaking of the icebreaking that you mentioned, in my opinion, it's already beginning to break because the environment is changing.

And that has come about as a result of the will of the people of Iran to create a new era of relations between the people of Iran and the rest of the world. Our hope, our expectation, in fact, indeed, is that all nations and this nation as well will respond positively to the people of Iran.

AMANPOUR: Are you authorized to start talking, negotiating, with the United States?

Are you authorized by the Supreme Leader back in Iran?

ROUHANI (through translator): Now we have to remember that when it comes to the United States, for 35 years, there have been no relations between the two countries, between Iran and the United States. The higher officials of the two countries have never spoken with one another, especially at a level of president.

You know, they have for two presidents to sit down. This has not happened for 35 years. So necessarily we must give time for diplomacy to work itself, for dialogue to come about, for circumstances to be laid properly.

The Supreme Leader of Iran has said that should negotiations be necessary for the national interests of the country, that he, in fact, is not opposed to it. He has specifically mentioned in a recent talk that he is not optimistic regarding the issue of talks with the United States. But when it comes to specific issues, government officials may speak with their American counterparts.

If an opportunity had risen today, and the prep work for that had been done, probably the talks would have taken place, primarily focused on the nuclear issue or on developments on the Middle East. And therefore the Supreme Leader has, I can tell you, given the permission for my government to freely negotiate on these issues.

AMANPOUR: So you do have that authorization?

ROUHANI: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Yes.

President Obama today, in his speech to the United Nations, said that he had authorized and placed Secretary John Kerry at the head of the negotiating team. They're going to meet with your foreign minister, Mr. Zarif, in terms of the nuclear issue.

Are there other issues, too, bilateral issues that you can start discussing?

Or your representatives with the United States?

Or is it just nuclear, and, as you said, other Middle Eastern issues?

ROUHANI (through translator): There are numerous issues that could be discussed by the two governments. But my principle has been from the outset that the nuclear issue can be an important test for the two governments to fulfill their negotiations and to reap the benefits of it.

So for the benefit of both nations, I believe that both our priority and perhaps possibly the priority of the other side, the United States, is the nuclear issue. If the nuclear issue is settled conclusively, I believe that that will pave the way for numerous other issues that can be discussed.

AMANPOUR: You spoke in your address to the general assembly about a peaceful resolution to the nuclear issue.

Can you give me the framework, the principles of what you would see as the possibility of a deal?

ROUHANI (through translator): On the nuclear issue, the first point is that the entire world must recognize that Iran does not seek a nuclear weapon nor shall it seek a nuclear weapon. But at the same time, it would insist that it will seek its rights like any other nation within the framework of international law and exert its will to fulfill those rights for its nation.

AMANPOUR: You say -- and you've said many times and every Iranian president has said it, and so has the Supreme Leader said it, that Iran does not want nuclear weapons. However, you know the issue is a confidence issue and that, frankly, many people don't believe it. They want to know what you can do to raise the confidence level.

As you know, sir, every U.N. resolution uses the word "confidence." It's all about confidence.

So what can you specifically do?

What is Iran prepared to do to inspire confidence in its nuclear program?

ROUHANI (through translator): The IAEA, after hundreds of hours of numerous inspections and continual work, did, in 2004, issue a clear resolution stating that there was no evidence with regards to Iran's nuclear program, of a deviation to that program. And that resolution was actually endorsed and approved by all members of the board of directors of the IAEA, including the United States of America.

Now the second path for confidence is really a political path. When there are no ties between two countries, where the two countries are not talking and negotiating with one another, it's possible that some lack of confidence could emerge.

AMANPOUR: Will you freeze enrichment at 20 percent?

Will you trade your existing 20 percent enriched fuel for buying it or accessing it from outside the country?

ROUHANI (through translator): These are talks that countries will engage in through negotiations. But there shouldn't be any prerequisite to build that confidence, to sit at the table. If that prerequisite is a threat of military action, that, to us, implies that the negotiations are not for real.

So if we speak of confidence, confidence must be mutual for certainty. This is the foundation of confidence building, its foundation to be created by both sides. And it should be built by both sides. The building of confidence cannot be built unilaterally.

AMANPOUR: What about the Iraq heavy water facility where people are worried that you could start extracting plutonium? That's yet another danger and a worry for the rest of the world. It's due to come online perhaps in the spring.

Will you delay putting it online, the Iraq facility?

ROUHANI (through translator): You are aware that the Iraq site is there to meet the medicinal needs of our country, and that was the case from the outset when we announced the site. Therefore, as long as Iraq becomes operational, there is still a significant amount of time left until it actually becomes fully operational.

Now it is possible that in the future such talks could take place between Iran and the P5+1 on such issues. But so far, the issue of Iraq, Iraq was never on the negotiating table.

AMANPOUR: But it could be?

ROUHANI (through translator): Anything is possible in negotiations. It's possible to talk about anything.

AMANPOUR: And what are you looking for in return?

I know you want sanctions lifted. Do you think you'll get them all at once?

Or what are the most important things you want?

ROUHANI (through translator): We believe that sanctions are illegal and inhumane, and therefore we certainly believe that the sanctions must be removed. We believe sanctions have no effect. The goal of those who sanction us, whatever it may be, they will not reach that goal.

The only path ahead is negotiations. We must sit down and talk and settle this for once and finally.

AMANPOUR: Mr. President, thank you very much indeed.

ROUHANI: Thanks.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So while Tehran's change in tone is encouraging, negotiations require painful compromises as well as confidence building measures on all sides.

Next, my exclusive interview with France's President Francois Hollande. At the U.N. this week, he became the first Western leader to meet with President Rouhani. In our exclusive interview, I asked Hollande if this is the last chance to break the impasse with Iran. He says an opening is there, when we come back.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. All eyes were on the possibility of breaking the ice and the impasse over Iran's nuclear program. When French President Francois Hollande became the first Western leader to meet with Iran's new president, Hassan Rouhani, at the United Nations.

Hollande said that while he's encouraged by positive messages, he urges the new Iranian government to come forward with, quote, "concrete gestures," for the next round of nuclear negotiations.

I spoke to President Hollande as he prepared for his U.N. address. I asked about what he hopes to hear from Rouhani on the nuclear issue and on ending the war in Syria.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Mr. President, welcome to New York. Welcome to our program. Thank you for joining me.

PRES. FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, FRANCE (speaking French): Thank you for your invitation.

AMANPOUR: France was very proactive, calling for Assad to step down, even agreeing -- you agreed to go militarily to deal with the horror of the chemical attack of August 21st.

What is your reaction now that the U.S. didn't go, the British and the U.S. decided to turn it over to their elected parliaments and they didn't get the go-ahead? But you were prepared to go.

Do you think there should have been punishment for the attack on August 21st, the chemical attack?

HOLLANDE (through translator): France was ready, as I said, to punish, to sanction the Syrian regime, given that they used chemical weapons and it's because there was this pressure from the United States, from France, that the Russians took the initiative to look for an agreement.

This agreement has been found and it enables now to consider a different solution, different from the military solution we had been considering.

This solution is a resolution by the U.N. Security Council in the coming days that should enable us to implement the agreement found between the U.S. and the Russians on this issue of chemical weapons, in other words, the destruction of chemical stockpiles.

AMANPOUR: Should there be -- should there be a military component?

Should it be enforceable by military action if they don't comply?

Will France go for a military component to the resolution?

HOLLANDE (through translator): A resolution without any sanction whatsoever, a resolution that would not consider any answer to a breach by the Syrian regime in terms of the control and the destruction of chemical weapons, this would have no scope whatsoever, no punch.

France is looking for a resolution that must be binding and enforceable, so that in any case of a breach, we can could go back to the Security Council and allow it to take sanctions.

So, yes, we want a resolution reached quickly, one which translates the agreement between the U.S. and the Russians, this agreement aimed at destroying chemical weapons, but with the requirement of sanction in case of breach.

AMANPOUR: Well, the U.S. doesn't seem to be going for that. Everything it says seems to be that it's not going to ask for a military or a coercive component. The Russians say they don't want that.

Do you think there will be a veto?

HOLLANDE (through translator): No. All we have to do is to hold the Russians accountable. They have to stick to what they said. They said there would be implementation, control of the weapons and that there must even be the possibility of making use of Chapter 7. But we may not need to turn to Chapter 7 immediately.

What we need is the possibility of sanction in case of a breach by the Syrian regime. I believe that the solution we're putting forward, which is a demanding solution, and it means that the Security Council must be in a position to act and to adopt sanctions if there is a breach.

We also need to make sure that those responsible can be brought to justice. All of that has to be in the next resolution and both the Russians and the U.S. can see in that resolution the implementation of the agreement they reached.

AMANPOUR: France seems to be very forward leaning. I am going to use other people's language, not mine.

During the time of the Iraq War, France was called "cheese-eating surrender monkeys."

I'm sorry, that's not my -- not my term.

French fries were called "freedom fries."

Your policy seems to be a real reversal of what was going on during the Iraq War. You seem to be really willing to project French power where you think it's necessary around the world.

Why is that?

And do you feel you're filling a gap, as the United States sort of moves back a little bit?

HOLLANDE (through translator): But France doesn't want to get involved in any kind of adventure or initiative. I was proud that my country did not take part in what happened in Iraq. I considered this was not a role we should take and that there was no truth about the weapons of mass destruction.

But here we're talking about 120,000 people dead in two and a half years, 2 million refugees, 80,000 dead in a year, an ever-growing number of forces, the forces of the regime, Al Qaeda as well, which is now in Syria.

In the middle, a democratic coalition, which cannot find a political solution. So it is urgent that we act.

Of course it is about fighting the use of chemical weapons, as will be done at the Security Council soon. But it is also about finding a political solution.

The role of France is not to apply its ambitions all around the world. We have no intention of influencing or defending commercial or trade interests.

What we are fighting for are rules, principles, values. This is what gives France its uniqueness in the international family.

So what I am fighting for regarding Syria is a political solution. Because if there had not been the necessary pressure with a threat regarding the use of chemical weapons, we would not be where we are.

So, yes, we will sort out the issue of chemical weapons within a couple of days. But we cannot satisfy ourselves with that single solution. We have to find a political solution in order to deal with what is the worst massacre since the turn of the century.

AMANPOUR: Iran is an actor. Iran, by all accounts, has military personnel inside Syria, helping and directing the war on behalf of President Assad. You will meet President Rouhani today.

What are you going to tell him about Syria, about Iran's role in a political solution?

What are the conditions?

What does Iran have to agree to?

HOLLANDE (through translator): We all know the bond between Iran and the Syrian regime. The need to talk to Iran is all the greater, given that President Rouhani has made a number of gestures, maybe orally so far, but it is some sort of opening.

Regarding Syria, I will be telling him that we should work on a Geneva 2 conference, the only purpose of which will be to organize the political solution, a transition that puts in place an interim government, that should include all the forces that will build the Syria of tomorrow.

Iran can attend the conference, if it agrees it is necessary to find a political solution. It is also in Iran's interests not to be isolated because of Syria.

AMANPOUR: And that includes Iran having to agree to what the conference calls for, and that is eventually President Assad stepping down and moving out, moving away from the political dynamic?

So Iran has to agree to that?

HOLLANDE (through translator): The purpose of Geneva 2, as we said, is that Bashar al-Assad should go and that there is a government that would represent all the Syrian components, all the political forces willing to build the Syria of tomorrow.

If Iran agrees upon that goal, Iran is welcome.

On the other hand, if Iran wants, at any price, to keep the regime in place, I cannot imagine how it could attend Geneva 2.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you about Bashar al-Assad. Again, yourself, the British prime minister, the American president, Barack Obama, for two years have been saying Bashar al-Assad must go. You've said it again now.

But isn't Bashar al-Assad necessary?

Isn't he actually going to have to stay in order to resolve this chemical weapons deal?

Is he not now inevitably a partner in getting rid of these chemical weapons?

HOLLANDE (through translator): It is Syria today which holds chemical weapons and must destroy them. And a couple of days ago, both in the American and in the French press, Bashar al-Assad was saying that he did not have chemical weapons, that there were no such weapons in Syria.

And now he says there are.

So he hasn't been a trustworthy partner for many months. This cannot be an opportunity for Bashar al-Assad to stay on as the leader of Syria. This issue, dealing with chemical weapons, must also be the step to allow for the political solution, which is a government that represents all Syrian communities.

Our belief is that we cannot use the chemical weapon agreement in order to maintain the current regime.

AMANPOUR: On the issue of nuclear program with Iran, where do you see the possibility of compromise?

Can there be a win-win situation?

Is this a last chance, do you think, for some kind of resolution of this crisis, really?

HOLLANDE (through translator): It's been ongoing for 10 years. The negotiations have been in deadlock for 10 years. Each day, each extra day is an extra threat in terms of the answer that we'll come to at some point.

And we have to keep that in mind. The new president made a number of statements, which was a sign of opening development. And I think that, here again, we have to be hold him to his word.

And when I see him today, I will be telling him a simple thing: if Iran is willing to negotiate, to give up on its military program and get a civil nuclear program to be accepted, then there is a possible solution.

On the other hand, if the deadlock remains, what will happen? More and more sanctions, they are burdens on the Iranian economy and, at some point, the threat of an operation which we all are aware of.

So from that starting point, it is reasonable to find a compromise. So the Iranian president has to move from words to deeds.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And after a break, imagine 20 words that begin to bridge decades of mistrust and misunderstanding. Breaking down the information blockade when we come back.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where the message of peace takes a little practice.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Can you give me a sentence in English that you would like to say to the American people?

This is your first interview here in the United States.

ROUHANI (through translator): Well, I have to begin by saying that I have not spoken English for years now. I'm talking about a long many years that I have not practiced my English.

ROUHANI: I would like to say to American people I bring peace and friendship from Iranians to Americans.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now, ironically, that message wasn't heard officially in Iran, where it was blocked on the Internet there.

Until the Internet blockade does come down, every day Iranians will keep up the game of cat-and-mouse to get around their government's firewall.

Meantime it seems that everyone in Iran is savvy enough to get around it, to use Twitter and Facebook, even some of the country's top leaders.

And that's it for tonight's program. Remember, you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com. And thanks for watching. Goodbye from New York.

END